XSF Discussion - 2020-08-14

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  158. emus Hello Kev, for the Tweets for the Newsletter I would like to ask for access to the Twitter account. And maybe Mastadon aswell, if someone has the access, too. jcbrand, Seve:
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  197. Guus What are sensible max size restrictions on pubsub items these days?
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  208. Zash Size of the items?
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  216. Zash Guus: I suppose you want to keep https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#subscriber-retrieve-returnall under 10k or whatever stanza size limit you may have
  217. Zash So, stanza size limit / max items (per rsm page, if supported) - some margins
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  220. flow it's a pitty that xep60 doesn't use the same scheme as MAM when returning multiple items
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  230. Zash Let's invent time travel and send that idea back to when '60 was designed
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  233. Zash Wasn't PubSub MAM a thing we discussed at Summit before?
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  238. Kev PubSub MAM is a thing, we deploy it and it's in the XEP, no?
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  241. Kev Unless I'm going mad.
  242. flow I am probably not very knowledgeable on pubsub, but what exactly is the benefit of pubsub mam?
  243. Kev You can get the history of items on a node.
  244. flow given that it appears that there is pubsub+rsm already
  245. Kev Xep60 gives you the 'current state', MAM gives you the history.
  246. flow the history of items means that I can access previous revisions of an item with id 'A'?
  247. Kev As an analogy, xep60 gives you the filesystem, 313 gives you the backups.
  248. Kev Yes, it would show you the history of things published to the node.
  249. flow i'd like to point out that I always found that motivation for PubSub+MAM missing in xep313
  250. flow mam introduction currently states "or to view old items in a pubsub node."
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  253. flow and I always wondered "can't I read old items already with plain xep60?"
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  257. flow and i guess xep-pubsub-mam does not exist (yet)?
  258. Kev I thought I wrote pubsub into 313.
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  260. flow you did, but it was removed early this year
  261. Kev Oh.
  262. Kev That seems...not good.
  263. jonas’ it was removed a week or two back
  264. jonas’ it’s a separate XEP (not yet)
  265. jonas’ because I forgot to do things editor-wise
  266. flow Version 0.7.0 (2020-03-20)
  267. jonas’ I was reminded by reading that paragraph
  268. jonas’ 0.7.0 was published a few weeks back
  269. jonas’ https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/921 this one I need to process, will soon
  270. flow IIRC the mam pubsub part was not that substantial, e.g. it still wasn't clear to me why and when I would want to use it, and what it can do for me (but maybe that's just me)
  271. flow simply stating that you can access previous item revisions with it may be a good first step
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  273. flow but eventually I think there is much more to it, like the retention policy of this "historical" information
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  275. Kev Isn't that exactly the same as with IM MAM?
  276. Zash So it'd let you replay notifications, or somesuch?
  277. Kev That's one way of looking at it I guess.
  278. Kev But if you're in an environment where pubsub is containing data that's a little bit like a message, rather than just transient notifications, the argument for MAM is the same as it is for IM, I think.
  279. Kev e.g. if you're doing FDP or something.
  280. Zash Notifications including retractions and other stuff
  281. lovetox Found a 8 year old Issue from MattJ in Gajim, where he proposes to use stream management acks instead of pings to detect a timeout
  282. lovetox whats the opinion about this today?
  283. flow lovetox, timeout or liveness detection?
  284. lovetox the later
  285. jonas’ lovetox, "yes please"
  286. Ge0rG lovetox: if you send multiple <r/> without data in between, you can't decide which of them a resulting <a/> is for
  287. jonas’ Ge0rG, doesn’t matter
  288. jonas’ that you received an <a/> is enough to know that you’re still live
  289. Ge0rG jonas’: doesn't matter for liveness detection, but does matter for server latency measurement
  290. jonas’ that is true, but you can do that passively
  291. jonas’ (if you really wanted to)
  292. lovetox Ge0rG, why would i send multiple </r> though?
  293. flow sm <r/> <a/> has fewer bytes on the wire compared to xmpp' pinging the server
  294. lovetox like without waiting for the <a>
  295. flow but IMHO not worth it, still a nice microoptimization
  296. Ge0rG I think I'm using actual pings because I encountered some limitation in the Smack API...
  297. jonas’ and fewer corner cases ("what if the server does not support ping?")
  298. Ge0rG lovetox: e.g. when doing it from a periodic timer
  299. jonas’ Ge0rG, also, you can decide because of in-order processing :)
  300. lovetox yes Ge0rG but i would always wait for the <a> or? before issuing a new one?
  301. jonas’ lovetox, waiting for "the" <a/> is tricky
  302. Ge0rG jonas’: but what if they get reordered or one is lost?!
  303. jonas’ Ge0rG, tcp?!
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  305. jonas’ the main problem tho for corellation is: > Either party MAY send an <a/> element at any time (e.g., after it has received a certain number of stanzas, or after a certain period of time), even if it has not received an <r/> element from the other party.
  306. Ge0rG jonas’: remember that fortigate TLS 1.3 issue I talked about recently?
  307. jonas’ please no
  308. lovetox and second question is, do you think its a good idea to send <r> after a period of time rather than after a number of stanzas?
  309. flow lovetox, I see no reason why you would request SM acks based on a period of time
  310. jonas’ lovetox, so I’d recommedn to send <r/> when you haven’t received anything from the server for more than N seconds
  311. jonas’ that you send <r/> specifically doesn’t matter, but sending *anything* which provokes a response from the server is good
  312. jonas’ <r/> lends itself because it’s cheap and has a beneficial side effect (updating the SM sync)
  313. flow you request SM acks to drain your, potentially existing, unack'ed stanza queue
  314. Ge0rG lovetox: it makes sense to send an <r/> after you sent out all the important stanzas that were queued, and then as jonas’ said after a longer period of idletime
  315. jonas’ then when you don’t receive *anything* (not specifically <a/>, anything from the server is fine) after another timeout, you consider the stream dead
  316. lovetox 2 seperate issues
  317. jonas’ this is much simpler than keeping track of pings and it’s also much better, because it can better deal with saturated high-latency links
  318. lovetox lets move away from alive detection
  319. jonas’ but you were talking about liveness detection?
  320. lovetox currently i request r after each stanza
  321. jonas’ that’s certainly a valid strategy
  322. lovetox yes jonas’ and now i want to talk about the second issue
  323. jonas’ but unrelated to liveness detection
  324. jonas’ oh
  325. jonas’ but I didn’t answer your first question yet :P
  326. jonas’ but I hadn’t answered your first question yet :P
  327. lovetox :D, you said its a good idea
  328. jonas’ lovetox, I’d say for non-aliveness-detection purposes, do <r/> on each socket flush
  329. lovetox Ge0rG, has some server latency issue i dont undestand and im not sure i want to care
  330. Ge0rG I have a server latency issue?
  331. lovetox jonas’, as i dont fliush the socket myself this is not a option
  332. Ge0rG -ENOPARSE
  333. lovetox i can ask for r after i get the callback that my write was successful
  334. lovetox which is probably the same
  335. Ge0rG if you don't flush the socket, maybe Nagle will
  336. lovetox but im not sure that is really a optimization
  337. Ge0rG lovetox: it's the opposite of an optimization
  338. lovetox but i would have to meassure that first
  339. Ge0rG lovetox: ideally, you want the stanza(s) and the <r/> to go out in the same TCP frame
  340. Ge0rG instead of wasting roundtrips
  341. lovetox yeah i use a library that abstracts that for me, so i have no idea when and how much is in a tcp frame
  342. Ge0rG I know this is a controversial opinion, but I consider Gajim to be a mobile client when I'm on 2G tethering, riding a train in the middle of German nowhere.
  343. Ge0rG lovetox: there is also TLS in between ;)
  344. flow and compression
  345. Ge0rG so it's borderline impossible to find out.
  346. jonas’ lovetox, then maybe wait for 1ms after you wrote a stanza to the socket and send a <r/> after that
  347. Ge0rG jonas’: but why?
  348. flow yeah, jonas’, why?
  349. jonas’ lovetox, and reset the timer after each stanza
  350. jonas’ flow, Ge0rG, to avoid sending multiple <r/>s for no good reason?
  351. flow I think I lost slighlty what this discussion is about
  352. lovetox yeah why multiple r?
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  354. lovetox look i have a send_stanza method
  355. flow simply send an <r/> after a few stanzas or when you hit a high watermark of unack'ed stanzas
  356. lovetox and everytime this is called, i also call send_r
  357. lovetox its very simple
  358. lovetox there can never be multiple r for one stanza
  359. lovetox its alway stanza, r, stanza, r, stanza, r
  360. jonas’ flow, so you send <r/> after N stanzas and the "last" batch of stanzas has N-1. You’re now left with N-1 unacked stanzas "forever".
  361. jonas’ for no good reason.
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  365. flow jonas’, well if the unacked stanzas are not important then this is fine
  366. lovetox thats why my idea was, something like, every 3 seconds (of course only if there are unacked stanzas=
  367. jonas’ flow, but if they are? what makes a stanza "important"?
  368. flow smack has predicates that decide when to request an stanza
  369. jonas’ lovetox, please don’t send multiple <r/> for any unacked stanza
  370. flow smack has predicates that decide when to issue an <r/>
  371. jonas’ you’ll just pile on to an apparently already existing network congestion
  372. flow trivial example is "messages with <body/>"
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  374. jonas’ especially not as often as every 3 seconds.
  375. Ge0rG jonas’: a stanza is important if it is not ephemeral and not going to time out if left in hibernation
  376. lovetox jonas, of course only one r is in flight
  377. lovetox please
  378. jonas’ lovetox, it’ll stay in-flight forever though
  379. jonas’ if the server doesn’t reply
  380. jonas’ or if the server takes long to reply
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  382. lovetox but it MUST reply
  383. jonas’ yes, but taht may take some time
  384. lovetox yeah and?
  385. jonas’ e.g. 5 minutes on a crappy mobile link
  386. jonas’ in that time you have amassed 100 <r/>s
  387. jonas’ to which the server MUST reply
  388. jonas’ so not only have you congested your uplink, but also your downlink now
  389. jonas’ unneccesarily
  390. lovetox i propose to send an r every 3 seconds only if there is no r in flight
  391. lovetox so how would i amass 100 r
  392. jonas’ oh, you messed up a negation earlier then
  393. lovetox maybe, although i dont see it
  394. jonas’ oh, I imagined an "if" in a sentence when there was none
  395. jonas’ sorry for that
  396. jonas’ lovetox, so, problem is, tracking <r/> and <a/> isn’t really possible
  397. jonas’ so how would you define "in-flight"?
  398. Ge0rG every 3 seconds?!
  399. jonas’ Ge0rG, (of course only if there are unacked stanzas)
  400. jonas’ Ge0rG, + the in-flight this results in "do <r/> if there are unacked stanzas 3s after the last stanza has been sent" or something like that
  401. Ge0rG that's an interesting trade-off.
  402. jonas’ which is kind of what I proposed earlier, just with a much higher delay, causing less battery efficiency
  403. jonas’ and with an unclear definition of "in-flight"
  404. lovetox one could switch the dealy dynamically
  405. Ge0rG How long do you wait after generating a stanza and before concluding that there are no more stanzas going to be sent
  406. lovetox when i have unacked stanzas its 3s, afterwards its 20
  407. lovetox or soemothing
  408. jonas’ lovetox, what do you send an <r/> for if you don’t have unacke:?
  409. jonas’ lovetox, what do you send an <r/> for if you don’t have unacked stanzas?
  410. lovetox for alive detection ^^
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  413. lovetox back to issue one
  414. jonas’ lovetox, see what I wrote in regard of that one please then
  415. Ge0rG maybe it's a good thing to just put all the stanzas that you want to send into a queue, then let the OS/event API know you have something to send, and then add a single <r> at the end of the queue
  416. Ge0rG ...on delivery
  417. lovetox generally i want to send every data instantly
  418. jonas’ Ge0rG, a simpler version of that, requiring less cooperation from the OS, is to re-implement that TCP-cork-ish stuff in userspace: N ms after the last stanza has been put in the tx queue of the socket, add <r/>. reset the timer on each stanza.
  419. lovetox to put it into a queue then wait some time, maybe more comes
  420. lovetox seems not very fast
  421. jonas’ lovetox, the OS will do that for you anyways. and it’s ok, since the time is generally rather short.
  422. Ge0rG jonas’: but then you are competing with TCP cork and end up sending the <r> in a separate TLS frame in a separate TCP frame
  423. Ge0rG so you add something like 20x the overhead to <r/>
  424. jonas’ Ge0rG, only if your delay is longer than the tcp delay
  425. jonas’ which you can query from the OS
  426. jonas’ and if that’s too complex for you (I don’t blame you), then just send <r/> after each stanza
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  428. Ge0rG or just give it up
  429. lovetox ok i keep sending r after each stanza
  430. lovetox i dont send many stanzas anyway
  431. jonas’ Ge0rG, delay on linux is 200ms
  432. jonas’ lovetox, don’t implement IBB then :D
  433. lovetox hehe
  434. lovetox yeah
  435. lovetox i already have
  436. Ge0rG do you request an <r> for each ibb stanza?
  437. jonas’ :)
  438. Ge0rG so it was YOU crashing my server? :D
  439. jonas’ how do <r/>s cause a crashing server?
  440. jonas’ do I want to know?
  441. Ge0rG jonas’: j/k
  442. jonas’ you never know
  443. jonas’ you find the weirdest bugs
  444. Ge0rG thank!
  445. Ge0rG thanks!
  446. jonas’ lovetox, https://docs.zombofant.net/aioxmpp/devel/api/internal/protocol.html#aioxmpp.protocol.XMLStream.deadtime_soft_limit here’s how liveness detection it works in aioxmpp. The docs at that place are written from a very internal perspective, hence user == the aioxmpp client class in this case. -> when the soft timeout expires, the stream sends <r/>. when the hard timeout expires, the stream is considered dead. timeouts reset when (any) data is received (it doesn’t even have to be a stanza).
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  448. jonas’ the frontend to that is https://docs.zombofant.net/aioxmpp/devel/api/public/stream.html#timeouts-stream-aliveness-checks
  449. jonas’ ("frontend")
  450. lovetox thanks i look into it
  451. jonas’ if anything is unclear, feel free to ask. if anything seems stupid, please let me know, because currently I think this is the best anyone can do given networking realities.
  452. jonas’ (and what I particularly love about it is the simplicity, because it only uses two timers. no tracking of stanzas or whatnot)
  453. jonas’ (and the building blocks can easily be reused for MUC aliveness checking and stuff like that)
  454. jonas’ (because the concepts are really the same everywhere)
  455. jonas’ also relevant: https://docs.zombofant.net/aioxmpp/devel/api/internal/utils.html?highlight=alive#aioxmpp.utils.AlivenessMonitor
  456. jonas’ also relevant: https://docs.zombofant.net/aioxmpp/devel/api/internal/utils.html#aioxmpp.utils.AlivenessMonitor
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  458. jonas’ oh and this is also an amazing side-effect: "If the peer is pinging us in an interval which works for us (i.e. is less than the soft limit), we don’t need to ping the peer; no extra logic required."
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  461. lovetox yeah less timers the better
  462. lovetox i hate timers
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  465. jonas’ two timers, no tracking.
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  761. Wojtek not sure what's the best place to ask (maybe jdev?) but here goes - is there somewhere a description of the current setup of xmpp.net? or it's sources? "about" (https://xmpp.net/about.php) only states that it's based on xmpppoke and it seems that https://github.com/stpeter/xmppdotnet is not exactly the same thing
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  775. Guus Wojtek: https://github.com/xmpp-observatory
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  785. Wojtek Thank you!
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