XSF Discussion - 2020-08-14

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  158. emus

    Hello Kev, for the Tweets for the Newsletter I would like to ask for access to the Twitter account. And maybe Mastadon aswell, if someone has the access, too. jcbrand, Seve:

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  197. Guus

    What are sensible max size restrictions on pubsub items these days?

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  208. Zash

    Size of the items?

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  216. Zash

    Guus: I suppose you want to keep https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#subscriber-retrieve-returnall under 10k or whatever stanza size limit you may have

  217. Zash

    So, stanza size limit / max items (per rsm page, if supported) - some margins

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  220. flow

    it's a pitty that xep60 doesn't use the same scheme as MAM when returning multiple items

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  230. Zash

    Let's invent time travel and send that idea back to when '60 was designed

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  233. Zash

    Wasn't PubSub MAM a thing we discussed at Summit before?

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  238. Kev

    PubSub MAM is a thing, we deploy it and it's in the XEP, no?

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  241. Kev

    Unless I'm going mad.

  242. flow

    I am probably not very knowledgeable on pubsub, but what exactly is the benefit of pubsub mam?

  243. Kev

    You can get the history of items on a node.

  244. flow

    given that it appears that there is pubsub+rsm already

  245. Kev

    Xep60 gives you the 'current state', MAM gives you the history.

  246. flow

    the history of items means that I can access previous revisions of an item with id 'A'?

  247. Kev

    As an analogy, xep60 gives you the filesystem, 313 gives you the backups.

  248. Kev

    Yes, it would show you the history of things published to the node.

  249. flow

    i'd like to point out that I always found that motivation for PubSub+MAM missing in xep313

  250. flow

    mam introduction currently states "or to view old items in a pubsub node."

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  253. flow

    and I always wondered "can't I read old items already with plain xep60?"

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  257. flow

    and i guess xep-pubsub-mam does not exist (yet)?

  258. Kev

    I thought I wrote pubsub into 313.

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  260. flow

    you did, but it was removed early this year

  261. Kev


  262. Kev

    That seems...not good.

  263. jonas’

    it was removed a week or two back

  264. jonas’

    it’s a separate XEP (not yet)

  265. jonas’

    because I forgot to do things editor-wise

  266. flow

    Version 0.7.0 (2020-03-20)

  267. jonas’

    I was reminded by reading that paragraph

  268. jonas’

    0.7.0 was published a few weeks back

  269. jonas’

    https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/921 this one I need to process, will soon

  270. flow

    IIRC the mam pubsub part was not that substantial, e.g. it still wasn't clear to me why and when I would want to use it, and what it can do for me (but maybe that's just me)

  271. flow

    simply stating that you can access previous item revisions with it may be a good first step

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  273. flow

    but eventually I think there is much more to it, like the retention policy of this "historical" information

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  275. Kev

    Isn't that exactly the same as with IM MAM?

  276. Zash

    So it'd let you replay notifications, or somesuch?

  277. Kev

    That's one way of looking at it I guess.

  278. Kev

    But if you're in an environment where pubsub is containing data that's a little bit like a message, rather than just transient notifications, the argument for MAM is the same as it is for IM, I think.

  279. Kev

    e.g. if you're doing FDP or something.

  280. Zash

    Notifications including retractions and other stuff

  281. lovetox

    Found a 8 year old Issue from MattJ in Gajim, where he proposes to use stream management acks instead of pings to detect a timeout

  282. lovetox

    whats the opinion about this today?

  283. flow

    lovetox, timeout or liveness detection?

  284. lovetox

    the later

  285. jonas’

    lovetox, "yes please"

  286. Ge0rG

    lovetox: if you send multiple <r/> without data in between, you can't decide which of them a resulting <a/> is for

  287. jonas’

    Ge0rG, doesn’t matter

  288. jonas’

    that you received an <a/> is enough to know that you’re still live

  289. Ge0rG

    jonas’: doesn't matter for liveness detection, but does matter for server latency measurement

  290. jonas’

    that is true, but you can do that passively

  291. jonas’

    (if you really wanted to)

  292. lovetox

    Ge0rG, why would i send multiple </r> though?

  293. flow

    sm <r/> <a/> has fewer bytes on the wire compared to xmpp' pinging the server

  294. lovetox

    like without waiting for the <a>

  295. flow

    but IMHO not worth it, still a nice microoptimization

  296. Ge0rG

    I think I'm using actual pings because I encountered some limitation in the Smack API...

  297. jonas’

    and fewer corner cases ("what if the server does not support ping?")

  298. Ge0rG

    lovetox: e.g. when doing it from a periodic timer

  299. jonas’

    Ge0rG, also, you can decide because of in-order processing :)

  300. lovetox

    yes Ge0rG but i would always wait for the <a> or? before issuing a new one?

  301. jonas’

    lovetox, waiting for "the" <a/> is tricky

  302. Ge0rG

    jonas’: but what if they get reordered or one is lost?!

  303. jonas’

    Ge0rG, tcp?!

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  305. jonas’

    the main problem tho for corellation is: > Either party MAY send an <a/> element at any time (e.g., after it has received a certain number of stanzas, or after a certain period of time), even if it has not received an <r/> element from the other party.

  306. Ge0rG

    jonas’: remember that fortigate TLS 1.3 issue I talked about recently?

  307. jonas’

    please no

  308. lovetox

    and second question is, do you think its a good idea to send <r> after a period of time rather than after a number of stanzas?

  309. flow

    lovetox, I see no reason why you would request SM acks based on a period of time

  310. jonas’

    lovetox, so I’d recommedn to send <r/> when you haven’t received anything from the server for more than N seconds

  311. jonas’

    that you send <r/> specifically doesn’t matter, but sending *anything* which provokes a response from the server is good

  312. jonas’

    <r/> lends itself because it’s cheap and has a beneficial side effect (updating the SM sync)

  313. flow

    you request SM acks to drain your, potentially existing, unack'ed stanza queue

  314. Ge0rG

    lovetox: it makes sense to send an <r/> after you sent out all the important stanzas that were queued, and then as jonas’ said after a longer period of idletime

  315. jonas’

    then when you don’t receive *anything* (not specifically <a/>, anything from the server is fine) after another timeout, you consider the stream dead

  316. lovetox

    2 seperate issues

  317. jonas’

    this is much simpler than keeping track of pings and it’s also much better, because it can better deal with saturated high-latency links

  318. lovetox

    lets move away from alive detection

  319. jonas’

    but you were talking about liveness detection?

  320. lovetox

    currently i request r after each stanza

  321. jonas’

    that’s certainly a valid strategy

  322. lovetox

    yes jonas’ and now i want to talk about the second issue

  323. jonas’

    but unrelated to liveness detection

  324. jonas’


  325. jonas’

    but I didn’t answer your first question yet :P

  326. jonas’

    but I hadn’t answered your first question yet :P

  327. lovetox

    :D, you said its a good idea

  328. jonas’

    lovetox, I’d say for non-aliveness-detection purposes, do <r/> on each socket flush

  329. lovetox

    Ge0rG, has some server latency issue i dont undestand and im not sure i want to care

  330. Ge0rG

    I have a server latency issue?

  331. lovetox

    jonas’, as i dont fliush the socket myself this is not a option

  332. Ge0rG


  333. lovetox

    i can ask for r after i get the callback that my write was successful

  334. lovetox

    which is probably the same

  335. Ge0rG

    if you don't flush the socket, maybe Nagle will

  336. lovetox

    but im not sure that is really a optimization

  337. Ge0rG

    lovetox: it's the opposite of an optimization

  338. lovetox

    but i would have to meassure that first

  339. Ge0rG

    lovetox: ideally, you want the stanza(s) and the <r/> to go out in the same TCP frame

  340. Ge0rG

    instead of wasting roundtrips

  341. lovetox

    yeah i use a library that abstracts that for me, so i have no idea when and how much is in a tcp frame

  342. Ge0rG

    I know this is a controversial opinion, but I consider Gajim to be a mobile client when I'm on 2G tethering, riding a train in the middle of German nowhere.

  343. Ge0rG

    lovetox: there is also TLS in between ;)

  344. flow

    and compression

  345. Ge0rG

    so it's borderline impossible to find out.

  346. jonas’

    lovetox, then maybe wait for 1ms after you wrote a stanza to the socket and send a <r/> after that

  347. Ge0rG

    jonas’: but why?

  348. flow

    yeah, jonas’, why?

  349. jonas’

    lovetox, and reset the timer after each stanza

  350. jonas’

    flow, Ge0rG, to avoid sending multiple <r/>s for no good reason?

  351. flow

    I think I lost slighlty what this discussion is about

  352. lovetox

    yeah why multiple r?

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  354. lovetox

    look i have a send_stanza method

  355. flow

    simply send an <r/> after a few stanzas or when you hit a high watermark of unack'ed stanzas

  356. lovetox

    and everytime this is called, i also call send_r

  357. lovetox

    its very simple

  358. lovetox

    there can never be multiple r for one stanza

  359. lovetox

    its alway stanza, r, stanza, r, stanza, r

  360. jonas’

    flow, so you send <r/> after N stanzas and the "last" batch of stanzas has N-1. You’re now left with N-1 unacked stanzas "forever".

  361. jonas’

    for no good reason.

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  365. flow

    jonas’, well if the unacked stanzas are not important then this is fine

  366. lovetox

    thats why my idea was, something like, every 3 seconds (of course only if there are unacked stanzas=

  367. jonas’

    flow, but if they are? what makes a stanza "important"?

  368. flow

    smack has predicates that decide when to request an stanza

  369. jonas’

    lovetox, please don’t send multiple <r/> for any unacked stanza

  370. flow

    smack has predicates that decide when to issue an <r/>

  371. jonas’

    you’ll just pile on to an apparently already existing network congestion

  372. flow

    trivial example is "messages with <body/>"

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  374. jonas’

    especially not as often as every 3 seconds.

  375. Ge0rG

    jonas’: a stanza is important if it is not ephemeral and not going to time out if left in hibernation

  376. lovetox

    jonas, of course only one r is in flight

  377. lovetox


  378. jonas’

    lovetox, it’ll stay in-flight forever though

  379. jonas’

    if the server doesn’t reply

  380. jonas’

    or if the server takes long to reply

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  382. lovetox

    but it MUST reply

  383. jonas’

    yes, but taht may take some time

  384. lovetox

    yeah and?

  385. jonas’

    e.g. 5 minutes on a crappy mobile link

  386. jonas’

    in that time you have amassed 100 <r/>s

  387. jonas’

    to which the server MUST reply

  388. jonas’

    so not only have you congested your uplink, but also your downlink now

  389. jonas’


  390. lovetox

    i propose to send an r every 3 seconds only if there is no r in flight

  391. lovetox

    so how would i amass 100 r

  392. jonas’

    oh, you messed up a negation earlier then

  393. lovetox

    maybe, although i dont see it

  394. jonas’

    oh, I imagined an "if" in a sentence when there was none

  395. jonas’

    sorry for that

  396. jonas’

    lovetox, so, problem is, tracking <r/> and <a/> isn’t really possible

  397. jonas’

    so how would you define "in-flight"?

  398. Ge0rG

    every 3 seconds?!

  399. jonas’

    Ge0rG, (of course only if there are unacked stanzas)

  400. jonas’

    Ge0rG, + the in-flight this results in "do <r/> if there are unacked stanzas 3s after the last stanza has been sent" or something like that

  401. Ge0rG

    that's an interesting trade-off.

  402. jonas’

    which is kind of what I proposed earlier, just with a much higher delay, causing less battery efficiency

  403. jonas’

    and with an unclear definition of "in-flight"

  404. lovetox

    one could switch the dealy dynamically

  405. Ge0rG

    How long do you wait after generating a stanza and before concluding that there are no more stanzas going to be sent

  406. lovetox

    when i have unacked stanzas its 3s, afterwards its 20

  407. lovetox

    or soemothing

  408. jonas’

    lovetox, what do you send an <r/> for if you don’t have unacke:?

  409. jonas’

    lovetox, what do you send an <r/> for if you don’t have unacked stanzas?

  410. lovetox

    for alive detection ^^

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  413. lovetox

    back to issue one

  414. jonas’

    lovetox, see what I wrote in regard of that one please then

  415. Ge0rG

    maybe it's a good thing to just put all the stanzas that you want to send into a queue, then let the OS/event API know you have something to send, and then add a single <r> at the end of the queue

  416. Ge0rG

    ...on delivery

  417. lovetox

    generally i want to send every data instantly

  418. jonas’

    Ge0rG, a simpler version of that, requiring less cooperation from the OS, is to re-implement that TCP-cork-ish stuff in userspace: N ms after the last stanza has been put in the tx queue of the socket, add <r/>. reset the timer on each stanza.

  419. lovetox

    to put it into a queue then wait some time, maybe more comes

  420. lovetox

    seems not very fast

  421. jonas’

    lovetox, the OS will do that for you anyways. and it’s ok, since the time is generally rather short.

  422. Ge0rG

    jonas’: but then you are competing with TCP cork and end up sending the <r> in a separate TLS frame in a separate TCP frame

  423. Ge0rG

    so you add something like 20x the overhead to <r/>

  424. jonas’

    Ge0rG, only if your delay is longer than the tcp delay

  425. jonas’

    which you can query from the OS

  426. jonas’

    and if that’s too complex for you (I don’t blame you), then just send <r/> after each stanza

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  428. Ge0rG

    or just give it up

  429. lovetox

    ok i keep sending r after each stanza

  430. lovetox

    i dont send many stanzas anyway

  431. jonas’

    Ge0rG, delay on linux is 200ms

  432. jonas’

    lovetox, don’t implement IBB then :D

  433. lovetox


  434. lovetox


  435. lovetox

    i already have

  436. Ge0rG

    do you request an <r> for each ibb stanza?

  437. jonas’


  438. Ge0rG

    so it was YOU crashing my server? :D

  439. jonas’

    how do <r/>s cause a crashing server?

  440. jonas’

    do I want to know?

  441. Ge0rG

    jonas’: j/k

  442. jonas’

    you never know

  443. jonas’

    you find the weirdest bugs

  444. Ge0rG


  445. Ge0rG


  446. jonas’

    lovetox, https://docs.zombofant.net/aioxmpp/devel/api/internal/protocol.html#aioxmpp.protocol.XMLStream.deadtime_soft_limit here’s how liveness detection it works in aioxmpp. The docs at that place are written from a very internal perspective, hence user == the aioxmpp client class in this case. -> when the soft timeout expires, the stream sends <r/>. when the hard timeout expires, the stream is considered dead. timeouts reset when (any) data is received (it doesn’t even have to be a stanza).

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  448. jonas’

    the frontend to that is https://docs.zombofant.net/aioxmpp/devel/api/public/stream.html#timeouts-stream-aliveness-checks

  449. jonas’


  450. lovetox

    thanks i look into it

  451. jonas’

    if anything is unclear, feel free to ask. if anything seems stupid, please let me know, because currently I think this is the best anyone can do given networking realities.

  452. jonas’

    (and what I particularly love about it is the simplicity, because it only uses two timers. no tracking of stanzas or whatnot)

  453. jonas’

    (and the building blocks can easily be reused for MUC aliveness checking and stuff like that)

  454. jonas’

    (because the concepts are really the same everywhere)

  455. jonas’

    also relevant: https://docs.zombofant.net/aioxmpp/devel/api/internal/utils.html?highlight=alive#aioxmpp.utils.AlivenessMonitor

  456. jonas’

    also relevant: https://docs.zombofant.net/aioxmpp/devel/api/internal/utils.html#aioxmpp.utils.AlivenessMonitor

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  458. jonas’

    oh and this is also an amazing side-effect: "If the peer is pinging us in an interval which works for us (i.e. is less than the soft limit), we don’t need to ping the peer; no extra logic required."

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  461. lovetox

    yeah less timers the better

  462. lovetox

    i hate timers

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    two timers, no tracking.

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  761. Wojtek

    not sure what's the best place to ask (maybe jdev?) but here goes - is there somewhere a description of the current setup of xmpp.net? or it's sources? "about" (https://xmpp.net/about.php) only states that it's based on xmpppoke and it seems that https://github.com/stpeter/xmppdotnet is not exactly the same thing

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  775. Guus

    Wojtek: https://github.com/xmpp-observatory

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  785. Wojtek

    Thank you!

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