XSF Discussion - 2020-08-25

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  89. Daniel Well technically it's probably incitement. Which is illegal. But INAL and nobody is going to sue over that.
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  171. dwd lovetox, You're not allowed to send data to the FBI; it would be illegal under the GDPR.
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  173. dwd moparisthebest, But, a GDPR Subject Access Request over XMPP would be legit and require a response within a fixed time period of a month (and without "undue delay").
  174. dwd moparisthebest, (This case isn't a DSAR, of course, as the FBI is not a Data Subject here)/
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  265. Alex Memberbot is still online for our member meeting today. If you are a XSF member and have not voted yet then please do so. Thanks.
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  267. jonas’ Alex, Thanks! I won’t be able to attend in-person, but I already voted :)
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  270. MattJ Just voted :)
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  330. eta btw, I've been thinking about ways to solve s2s connection issues (and push notifications) with MUC/XEP-0045 in ways that are mostly invisible to the clients participating in the MUC. I wrote up a 1,900 word very rough form of a XEP, and will probably look at converting that into a "proper" ProtoXEP soon :)
  331. eta the basic idea is to have the user's server perform MUC Self-Ping on the users' behalf and intelligently handle rejoining & history replay for the client, removing the need for the client to support such logic
  332. eta MUC servers must implement Unique and Stable Stanza IDs for the catchup to work, and are strongly advised to implement MAM and the optimization parts of MUC Self-Ping (but these aren't hard requirements)
  333. jonas’ eta, that doesn’t solve all of the issues
  334. jonas’ unfortunately
  335. moparisthebest eta: is that prosody mod_minimix ?
  336. jonas’ but it improves the situation
  337. eta jonas’, do tell
  338. eta what issues remain?
  339. eta moparisthebest, no, it's something different
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  341. jonas’ eta, ah, well, if you force servers to do MAM catchup and replay on behalf of their users, that’s good
  342. jonas’ otherwise this won’t quite work
  343. Zash jonas’, wanna write down all the issues on the wiki or such?
  344. jonas’ Zash, -EBUSY
  345. Zash -WSADFACE
  346. eta jonas’, so how I've spec'd it is that if your client conforms to this new XEP it just gets a "room oops happened, please do MAM resync" message and handles MAM itself
  347. jonas’ I just came back from the police department (which was already closed) and that kind of stole more of my time than I had budgeted for
  348. eta if your client doesn't advertise support, the server will do MAM for you and forward the messages
  349. jonas’ eta, ah, that’s not at all "invisible to clients" then
  350. jonas’ and not much of an improvement over self-ping, is it?
  351. jonas’ why not always let the server do MAM?
  352. eta jonas’, because paging
  353. jonas’ I don’t folloo
  354. jonas’ I don’t follow
  355. eta let's say you're disconnected for an extended period and miss out on like 1000 lines of history
  356. jonas’ yeah
  357. eta now the server will perform MAM to filter through that to see if any of those lines contain your nickname (for push purposes)
  358. eta but it won't want to buffer all 1000 and send them to you, because that drains the server's resources unnecessarily
  359. jonas’ but if a client doesn’t support it, the server still has to do it, right?
  360. eta yeah, so there's a limit
  361. jonas’ I don’t like that
  362. jonas’ don’t hide issues if you can’t hide them completely
  363. Zash Will perform MAM ... when?
  364. Zash Periodically?
  365. jonas’ Zash, after MUC self-ping errored
  366. eta Zash, upon reconnect
  367. Zash Polling? Hmmmm, not sure if like
  368. eta Zash, polling is required
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  371. eta copy-paste
  372. jonas’ ok, well
  373. eta "Fundamentally, due to the way s2s links work (i.e. they get suspended on lack of activity), we'll always need to perform some kind of polling to make sure we're still in a MUC. Doing things like the server proactively saying it's back and clients should rejoin is *good*, but it'll never cover all cases due to the nature of networking. Therefore, it's probably a good idea to have a user-configurable polling interval that defaults to something like "10 minutes since last activity observed to/from the MUC" that people can tweak if they really care about knowing about disruption earlier."
  374. jonas’ I shall write stuff down later
  375. eta Zash, also this is a strict improvement upon the status quo, right
  376. jonas’ no
  377. eta clients currently have to poll anyways
  378. eta it's better if the server does it once than having all connected resources do it
  379. jonas’ if you hide message loss (the > 1000 messages situation), that’s not an improvement
  380. eta jonas’, it's not hidden
  381. jonas’ how is it not hidden?
  382. eta jonas’, you either support the XEP, in which case you get an explicit "do a MAM resync" notification, or you don't, in which case you just get kicked
  383. jonas’ if the client does not advertise support, servers will simply not send all of the history, but fake as if the client had been in the room all the time.
  384. eta no, they won't
  385. eta it kicks you in that case
  386. jonas’ hue?
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  388. jonas’ what about the MAM stuff you said earlier then?
  389. eta so it tries to do a catchup
  390. jonas’ ah, and if that’s too much, you get kicked
  391. jonas’ makes sense
  392. eta yeah
  393. eta and then you just do whatever retry logic you currently do
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  395. eta (except it'll tell you that it kicked you for this reason, so you can instarejoin knowing that you're actually still in the MUC and just need to do MAM)
  396. Zash current retry logic: none
  397. MattJ Count me as interested, I've long thought we need to fix this on the server side, but haven't been able to put in the time to spec anything up
  398. eta I mean I'll write this up into a proper protoXEP at some point soon once I figure out how to do that
  399. eta the current doc is somewhat incoherent
  400. MattJ Step 1: obtaint markdown-to-xep
  401. MattJ Step 1: obtain markdown-to-xep
  402. eta if there are no glaring issues with it, I'll probably forge ahead with trying to write prosody modules
  403. eta oh yeah, the other thing I forgot to mention is
  404. jonas’ eta, ok, that makes much more sense.
  405. eta this XEP has bookmarks2 as a hard dependency
  406. MattJ :)
  407. jonas’ eta, I’ll be happy to help you through the XEP process -- let me know if you need any technical help in getting this in the right format
  408. jonas’ speaking of right format: MattJ, do you have it on your todo list to clean up the new mam-forked XEPs?
  409. eta basically the flow is without a bookmarks2 entry for a room, you don't get any server fanciness
  410. MattJ jonas’, what needs cleanup specifically?
  411. eta so to engage the fanciness, you join normally, then add a bookmarks2 entry
  412. jonas’ MattJ, they are lacking some RECOMMENDED/REQUIRED sections IIRC
  413. eta (at which point the fun state machine specified in the XEP kicks into action and joins another resource that the server controls)
  414. MattJ Ok, that wasn't on my todo but I can look into it
  415. MattJ Probably not for a couple of weeks though
  416. jonas’ MattJ, I see, thanks nontheless
  417. jonas’ nothing too urgent anyways
  418. eta once the fun durable mode is engaged, you never get kicked out of the XEP unless (a) someone actually /kick-ed you or (b) the server gave up retrying to get you back in (usually after like a day)
  419. eta once the fun durable mode is engaged, you never get kicked out of the MUC unless (a) someone actually /kick-ed you or (b) the server gave up retrying to get you back in (usually after like a day)
  420. eta in both cases, something is shoved in the bookmarks2 entry to say "this MUC is broken", which disengages the fanciness until you remove that by manually rejoining and re-adding the bookmarks2 entry
  421. jonas’ eta, I’m sure I can read that in the document later on, but what happens if the user sends a message while they are not fully connected?
  422. eta jonas’, what do you mean by "not fully connected"
  423. jonas’ eta, the server is currently in the process of retrying to get you connected
  424. jonas’ eta, the server is currently in the process of retrying to get you connected to the MUC
  425. eta jonas’, you get an error of type "wait"
  426. eta the one smoking gun might be if current clients decide to rejoin the MUC in this case, which would suck a lot
  427. eta well, actually, no it really wouldnt'
  428. eta well, actually, no it really wouldn't
  429. jonas’ that depends on the specific condition, but a server could easily eat rejoins away in such cases.
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  433. eta jonas’, it kinda does
  434. eta if you attempt to rejoin whilst in the `Reconnecting` state, what happens is it marks you as "waiting to rejoin", eats your presence, and sends you a "experiencing connection issues" message (for conformant clients)
  435. eta if it manages to get you to join, it forwards you the recipient list and then does the "intelligent catchup" process
  436. eta actually wait, no, it wouldn't do that because you'd be expected to do MAM anyway, so scratch that
  437. MattJ Bonus points for a state diagram :)
  438. eta https://theta.eu.org/xmpp/upload/3OHj4KIs8L9tD3JW/7543125f-08d5-411e-9732-722daa038bd5.png
  439. eta MattJ, 👀️
  440. MattJ Bonus points awarded, achievement unlocked!
  441. eta the nice thing is, if this XEP actually becomes a thing the UX will probably be better than something like matrix
  442. eta because you'll get an explicit "experiencing connection issues" display in your client's UI
  443. eta (which I think is a lot nicer than just sending and not getting any messages back until s2s reconnects and everything floods back in)
  444. eta also, there's no requirement to implement a bloody complicated MIX server
  445. eta like all you need on the conference service side of things is MUC, unique and stable stanza IDs, (MUC Self-Ping optimization, MAM)
  446. jonas’ it makes MUC better, but it doesn’t solve other problems of MUC ;)
  447. eta so I can write my transports and have them work :p
  448. jonas’ in fact, this is something MIX also still needs to solve, so I think that work is valuable
  449. eta jonas’, what are the other problems though?!
  450. eta oh, MIX
  451. eta nvm
  452. jonas’ no, your proposed thing
  453. eta okay, what other problems are there
  454. jonas’ try to address a specific resource of a participant in a MUC
  455. eta what's the usecase for that?
  456. jonas’ the entire multi-session nick hack which isn’t written down anywhere normative
  457. jonas’ eta, sending IQs
  458. eta ah
  459. eta oh yeah, re nicks, you can't specify one on join any more
  460. eta it forces it to be your bookmarks2 one if you have one in bookmarks2
  461. jonas’ I need to step away for a bit, I’m having a hard time to concentrate on anything
  462. eta sure
  463. eta I take your point that there are other problems with MUC though :p
  464. eta (but there can be more specs for that)
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  476. edhelas there's always other problems with MUC :p
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  478. Daniel What do we need muc for anyway?
  479. MattJ Are you going to say... XEP-0033? :)
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  481. Zash YES
  482. Daniel For smaller groups I can certainly see the appeal
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  485. Zash Would be interesting to see that
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  491. edhelas chatrooms without MUC 🤔
  492. edhelas it's a bit the difference between mailing lists and chain-answered-emails
  493. Zash exactly that
  494. moparisthebest a, somewhat major server implemented XEP-0033 recently (jmp.chat/cheogram.com) but no support in Conversations (or most/all clients?) yet
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  496. eta ah yes
  497. eta group emails
  498. eta that very functional solution that never results in people getting confused ever
  499. edhelas can't wait for XMPP Chatrooms over SMTP
  500. Holger From 0313's changelog: > Split preferences protocol into a separate document Which document did they go into?
  501. Zash Holger: New ones, via the inbox. (Council voted it)
  502. Holger Ah, thx.
  503. Zash Dunno if Editor has processed them yet
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  505. jonas’ they haven’t been voted into existence yet
  506. jonas’ Zash is on-list on them
  507. Zash Oh right
  508. jonas’ *hinthint* if you vote properly within the next few minutes, they might make today’s editor window *hinthint*
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  556. Wojtek eta - out of curiosity - why not push for MIX addotion, instaed of putting another patch on a MUC?
  557. eta Wojtek, I think MIX is overengineered
  558. Wojtek and yet another patch on (kinda broken) MUC is better?
  559. moparisthebest only one can be used without all servers upgrading at once
  560. eta ^
  561. eta MIX isn't backwards-compatible with MUC
  562. eta MUC is a very simple standard, and I like that
  563. jonas’ Wojtek, MIX also has exactly the same issue
  564. jonas’ (not quite exactly, but well)
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  566. jonas’ eta, MIX does have a MUC compatibility layer which I’d deem "good enough" for a soft transition
  567. eta jonas’, okay, but also
  568. Wojtek eta: XEP-0408?
  569. eta MIX creates an ecosystem split where half the users still have a crap experience
  570. moparisthebest in tigase's defense they *actually* put in the work and seem to have made a seemingly working implementation, I'll have to update https://www.moparisthebest.com/mix/
  571. eta even with a compatibility layer
  572. jonas’ eta, that’s life.
  573. eta jonas’, no, but it doesn't have to be this way
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  576. jonas’ eta, yes, hence I’d actually suggest putting energy into MIX -- but I don’t blame *you*, because the work you’re doing we need for MIX, too
  577. jonas’ we discussed about that in this very room just the other day
  578. eta yeah, I saw :)
  579. eta Wojtek, okay, point taken
  580. Wojtek eta, MUC may be a simple standard yet time and time again there are problems with it and (weird ways) to fix that...
  581. jonas’ MUC is by no means a simple standard
  582. Wojtek @jonas’ what same issue?
  583. jonas’ Wojtek, dealing with s2s outages
  584. jonas’ clients need to know about it to sync their archive with the remote MAM (if we go for remote-archives-only) and/or servers need to sync the user’s MAM and do magic if we allow for user-local archives
  585. Andrzej eta, MUC is simple? try to make it scalable, consistent, etc. you will learn that it is not so simple
  586. eta it's simple if you're a transport developer :>
  587. jonas’ eta, MUC is a very long document as it stands already. Aside from that, there are hacks upon hacks which aren’t even *documented* there (like the whole multi-session nick stuff, or IQ routing in MUC in general)
  588. Wojtek @jonas’ if we *don't* allow you mean? beacause with local archive each time there is a new message it's delivered to local archive which eliminates issue with s2s outages
  589. eta and MIX solves this problem?
  590. jonas’ Wojtek, no, if we *do* allow.
  591. jonas’ Wojtek, that’s not correct. what if the s2s between MIX and user server is down?
  592. jonas’ eta, yes, because MSN (multi-session nicks) as well as IQ routing (by having each resource addressable) are both well-defined in MIX
  593. Wojtek then your local archive won't get the message, but you also won't be able to query it ;-)
  594. jonas’ Wojtek, yeah, so you have message loss (bad)
  595. Wojtek but I get it now
  596. Wojtek still, I don't recall fallback to query remote server if `urn:xmpp:mix:pam:2#archive` was advertised
  597. jonas’ it’s a rather tricky thing to solve. It’s not just that servers do MAM syncs among each other. To ensure correct order of message delivery, servers will also have to do replay from MAM as well as queue "live" messages
  598. jonas’ Wojtek, sorry, I lack context, what does `urn:xmpp:mix:pam:2#archive` mean and who would fallback to what?
  599. Wojtek "Archive of MIX channel messages MAY be performed by the participant's server. When this is done, the capability is advertized to MIX clients using the 'urn:xmpp:mix:pam:2#archive' feature. If archive is provided it **MUST always be used**, so that where a message is sent to the participant's server and discarded because there are no active clients, it will still be archived. This means that when archiving is provided, the messages will be available in the local archive and can be picked up by clients when they come online. "
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  601. Andrzej @jonas’ simples solution for s2s issues would be stream management over s2s, or force MIX to add stable-id of a last message which was sent, so that users server MAM could fill that and deliver "lost" messages as a normal MIX message with `<delay/>` element in them
  602. eta Andrzej, my proposed solution does the stable-id thing, sorta
  603. jonas’ Andrzej, no, stream-management is not sufficient
  604. jonas’ stream management will have limits because servers won’t queue forever.
  605. jonas’ Wojtek, the text you quoted is exactly the problematic part. It claims that the user’s archive is the gold standard, but in fact it’ll have gaps without additional measures.
  606. jonas’ Andrzej, what you propose is one of the ways to do it, but then the user server becomes quite complex. It needs to do MAM queries, backfill the local archive (which it may not be able to even to, because it’d have to insert into MAM at an earlier point, violating one of the MAM guarantees!), it has to buffer all "live" messages from the MIX to be able to replay MAM first in order to provide in-order delivery of all stanzas from the MIX.
  607. jonas’ and it needs to do that across all pubsub-nodes the user has subscribed to on the MIX, too
  608. Andrzej @jonas’ we will have gaps, but it was discussed at the summit and the simples solution to add to the message stable-id of a previous message was suggested (by Kev if I recall)
  609. jonas’ and then the client would be responsible for filling the gap in its local archive?
  610. Andrzej @jonas’ why it needs to insert those new entries in the past? just add them at the end with `<delay/>` element in them
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  612. Andrzej then MAM would be just log of a messages which you have received and delay timestamps would allow clients to assign those messages in proper order
  613. jonas’ which clients don’t do generally
  614. jonas’ and I’m also not sure if that’d be acceptable
  615. eta Wojtek, XEP-0408 doesn't really say much
  616. Wojtek I know that it's the problem, but it says that if there is local archive the user *MUST* use it (so no queryign from MIX MAM)
  617. jonas’ Wojtek, hence the debate about that particular text :)
  618. jonas’ eta, needs implementations. but conceptually, it can easily work.
  619. eta okay, so MIX removes some hacks that you need to make MUC work
  620. eta I mean I don't think the problems with MUC are bad enough to justify scrapping it entirely
  621. eta or rather, to justify the ecosystem split having 2 competing standards would cause
  622. jonas’ that is your opinion and you can have it :)
  623. Wojtek :-)
  624. eta indeed!
  625. eta if people want to implement MIX though, go ahead! part of why XMPP is great is precisely that people can have different ideas
  626. Wojtek and having many things of doing something is kinda "XMPP way" ;-)
  627. Andrzej eta, for mobile devices (ie. iOS) using MUC requires a lot of hacks
  628. jonas’ though I *do* find it amusing, that the often-complained-about required user-server support for MIX is now coming for MUC ;)
  629. Wojtek for me it seems that MUC is basically mutating into MIX, in stages...
  630. eta Andrzej, are a lot of hacks bad though? :p
  631. Wojtek YES :-P
  632. eta Andrzej, I mean the followup XEP I was going to write is a spec for doing push notifications
  633. eta if the server has a resource constantly joined to the MUC, it can receive messages, match them against a set of rules / regexes, and then forward the message to the client
  634. Andrzej eta, with filtering I hope?
  635. jonas’ eta, what about E2EE?
  636. eta Andrzej, yeah, I want to essentially rip off matrix's push rules system
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  638. eta jonas’, you'd have to either (a) send every message or (b) include a separate <mentions/> element or w/e
  639. eta and deal with the privacy implications of (b)
  640. Wojtek > if the server has a resource constantly joined to the MUC, it can receive messages, match them against a set of rules / regexes, and then forward the message to the client so, basically permanent member subscription? like in... MIX? ;-)
  641. eta although *no* messenger can deal with the e2ee problem :)
  642. Andrzej eta, if you want to write something like that please check https://xeps.tigase.net//docs/push-notifications/filters as this could be useful
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  644. eta Andrzej, issue I have with that is, what does "mentioned" mean
  645. eta do I get a notification any time someone says "details"? ;P
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  647. moparisthebest it means you can silently eat the mobile battery of everyone you are in a channel with of course :)
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  649. Andrzej mentioned means that your nickname was mentioned in a message
  650. eta Andrzej, no, sure, but how are you matching
  651. eta if your test is `string.contains(nick)` it's going to break for me :)
  652. Andrzej contains and check if before and after there is no alphanumeric character
  653. eta ah, good
  654. eta that aside, though, yeah, that XEP looks very similar
  655. eta Wojtek, yeah, exactly like in MIX :p
  656. Andrzej I was suggesting to consider just requirements from our XEP (and syntax if that would be useful)
  657. eta like I don't think MUC's current semantics are ideal at all
  658. eta Wojtek, the difference is my proposed XEP doesn't require the MUC service to support much more
  659. Andrzej but requires local server to keep a persistent session for you
  660. eta yeah
  661. Andrzej with S2S issues, reconnections, MUC restarts, etc. this can be problematic
  662. eta Andrzej, that's what the whole XEP is about
  663. eta you could even extend it to have local archiving semantics similar to your MIX implementation
  664. eta it just won't do that initially because that's a bit of a hard sell for some server operators
  665. eta generally my problem with MIX is it doesn't really obey Postel's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle): it requires there to be a shiny new MIX service out there to get any of the benefits
  666. eta whereas trying to patch MUC on the server side will improve experience for ~90% of users without them having to change client or MUC service
  667. eta that said, for non federating environments, MIX is unquestionably better
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  669. Wojtek and then you end up in a situaiton when some server support that and some not and some user will have different experience than others... and then everyone complain again that it's impossible to have more-or-less consisten experience with XMPP and jump on the matrix badwagon
  670. moparisthebest not sure that's the right law, it requires a flag-day, which never ends up happening
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  672. moparisthebest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_day_(computing)
  673. eta Wojtek: well no, you make it part of the compliance tester
  674. eta also I mean, MIX has the same issue!
  675. eta (in fact it's worse)
  676. moparisthebest huh TIL that flag day was also Postel's https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc801 :)
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  678. Wojtek compliance server is run by a private person and not XSF… and it's kinda arbitrary - it requires XEP-0215 yet compliance suite doesn't mention this particular XEP...
  679. jonas’ it also doesn’t say XMPP or XSF compliance ;)
  680. Daniel The compliance tester is just 4 month ahead of time
  681. eta Wojtek: well, I mean I'd be interested to hear your solution here
  682. eta fragmentation is definitely an issue, but I'm not sure there is an obvious magic bullet
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  691. lovetox eta, the idea to make it dependend on bookmarks2 seems like a sure way implementation gets delayed very long
  692. lovetox there is no server that supports bookmarks2 in a way that client would want to use it
  693. eta lovetox: but bookmarks2 defines a private XML conversion path
  694. eta lovetox: oh? what are the issues with bookmarks2?
  695. lovetox hm? i didnt say there where issues with bookmarks2, only that no server supports it
  696. eta ah
  697. lovetox and bookmarks2 in turn depends on other XEPs that servers dont support
  698. jonas’ does it?
  699. lovetox like the recent "max" change in pubsub
  700. Wojtek > it also doesn’t say XMPP or XSF compliance ;) yet it seems that everyone considers it as such ;-) and eta proposed using it as a mean to promote XEPs :-)
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  702. Wojtek > The compliance tester is just 4 month ahead of time hence "arbitrary" - you can do with compliance tester whatever you want as it's not XMPP/XSF :-)
  703. eta Wojtek: hey, feel free to make a Siskin compliance tester :p
  704. Wojtek Siskin is client, not server ;-)
  705. eta Wojtek: no, but the other tester is "the Conversations compliance tester", because it tests whether the server works well with Conversations
  706. Zash "A thing that tests whether servers are tuned for Siskin"
  707. eta Wojtek: like, more compliance testers would be great!
  708. eta I'm not saying Daniel's one has to be the One True Tester
  709. Wojtek eta yet you proposed to promote certain specification via compliance tester
  710. Andrzej so is it really a "compliance tester" or "compatibility tester"?
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  713. eta Wojtek: well, okay, that's assuming Conversations uses said specification
  714. Zash Andrzej: I was just going to say ... the later.
  715. eta Wojtek: perhaps I'm a bit too optimistic in that regard :p
  716. Zash You could even fork it, tune it to your own clients requirements.
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  719. Zash Or make an ultimate every client compatibility tester
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  722. eta Wojtek: my point is just that the conversations compliance tester seemed to do a relatively okay job of driving AV call adoption by servers
  723. Zash (along with a client needing it and users wanting the call feature)
  724. eta true :p
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  729. eta curses at xef/xeps
  730. eta > element header: validity error : Element header content does not follow the DTD, expecting (title , abstract , legal , number , status , lastcall* , interim* , type , sig , approver* , dependencies , supersedes , supersededby , shortname , schemaloc* , registry? , discuss? , expires? , author+ , revision+ , councilnote?), got (title abstract legal number status type sig approver dependencies supersedes supersededby author shortname revision ) </header>
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  732. eta oh my god
  733. eta they have to be in the correct order
  734. eta that's ridiculous
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  739. Zash Praise schema validation!
  740. jonas’ eta, I recommend using xep-template.xml
  741. eta jonas’, ...now you tell me
  742. jonas’ I told you to ask :D
  743. eta copies & pastes
  744. eta I've already written an intro, which is good
  745. jonas’ eta, next time, ping me directly, I’m happy to help before things become an annoyance
  746. eta not having to refer to XEP-0001 all the damn time is nice though :)
  747. Zash But have you considered implementing an elaborate document processing pipeline that turns plain text into xep-xml?!
  748. jonas’ GPT-3?
  749. Zash Oh no
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  751. jonas’ hmmm
  752. moparisthebest *spits out machine generated XEP* hmm looks alot like matrix
  753. Zash You're holding it upsidedown?
  754. jonas’ requests OpenAI beta access
  755. moparisthebest I turned it upside down and now it just looks like a blockchain
  756. jonas’ let’s see if they give it to me
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  759. Alex lets kick off our member meeting
  760. Zash !
  761. moparisthebest \o/
  762. Alex bangs the gavel
  763. jonas’ oh right! and I’m even around!
  764. Alex here is our Agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-08-25
  765. Alex 1) Call for Quorum
  766. Alex as you can see 34 members voted via Memberbot, so we have a quorum
  767. Alex 2) Items Subject to a Vote
  768. Alex new and returning members, you can see all applicants on this page: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q3_2020
  769. Alex 3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting
  770. Alex anyone here who has not voted yet and wants to do so now?
  771. sonny has left
  772. Alex looks like none
  773. Alex I will shutdown the bot then and start working on the results
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  778. Guus 🥁
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  780. Alex 4) Announcement of Voting Results
  781. Alex when you reload the page at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-08-25#Announcement_of_Voting_Results you can see the results
  782. Alex all new and returning members are accepted. Congrats to everone, and welcome to our new members
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  785. Alex 5) ny Other Business?
  786. jonas’ None from me
  787. Guus None here
  788. jonas’ except: congratulations to everyone and thanks to our Secretary for the duty
  789. Alex 6) Formal Adjournment
  790. Alex I motion that we adjourn
  791. Zash +1
  792. Alex bangs the gavel
  793. Alex thanks everyone
  794. Guus Thanks Alex !
  795. moparisthebest 🔨️ thanks Alex
  796. Zash Thanks Alex. Congrats to all.
  797. Alex will update the memberlist and mailing list tomorrow morning
  798. Alex Thanks to Dave for updating Memberbot. Was running very smoothly this time ;-)
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  828. jonas’ Special congrats to (!)!XSF_Martin and Holger :)
  829. Martin Thanks 😃
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  831. MattJ The irony is that the original "XSF Martin" that caused you to switch to that nick... I'm pretty sure he was never a member of the XSF :)
  832. jonas’ not?
  833. jonas’ but he was in board, right?
  834. eta . o O ( I should join the XSF )
  835. MattJ jonas’: yes
  836. jonas’ ok, that explains my assumptions (and I suppose also mdosch’s)
  837. eta how do clients typically advertise support for some XEP?
  838. jonas’ eta, XEP-0030
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  840. eta jonas’, right, so the server is expected to do the whole entity caps dance and disco#info query it?
  841. jonas’ yes, servers do that anyways tho
  842. jonas’ for PEP
  843. eta oh, okay, so that's something we can build on
  844. jonas’ so just state that the client has to implement XEP-0115 and go ahead
  845. eta adds more dependencies
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  855. eta right, after 20 minutes of XML wrangling I've managed to make a TOC
  856. eta actual spec content still to follow >_>
  857. eta (well, there's an intro, requirements, and MUC failure modes section)
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