XSF Discussion - 2020-08-31

https://blogs.gentoo.org/mgorny/2020/08/25/is-an-umbrella-organization-a-good-choice-for-gentoo/ reminds me a little bit about us (i.e. the XSF)

not sure how the XSF's standing with the IRS is ;)

I am not aware of any issues with the IRS.

So that recent IETF thread make me think... are we able and willing to offer our help to the IETF to run a modern XMPP server for them?

willing yes

able: I’d be happy to support with that if it isn’t open-registration

Can somebody tldr the thread? "hey we're in 2020, we want features. Here have a Slack instance"?

pep.: kinda sorta

pep.: also XMPP prejudice based on experiences from 2005

so I can’t in the next month, but I’d be happy to help supporting in the long term

I have some experience in monitoring things

Do they have clients for the server we'd provide?

jonas’: that's something that needs to be done right now, though

With features(tm)

pep.: educating them about modern clients would be part of the task

Ge0rG, I can’t do right now, I have literally no time for any additional tasks until the move is over

the remaining buffer time is reserved for emergencies

(and user requests like "add me to o.j.n")

Ge0rG, but we can surely send out the offer and then find someone to do it

jonas’: maybe my comment was not directed to you as much as a general call to action for the XSF / Board / iteam

Ge0rG: you mean the great web clients we have? :p

maybe we can get Holger to provide them with a free account and C download?

Holger + Daniel that is

Ge0rG, or you could spin up a vhost on yax.im?

as a demo server

pep.: Converse, Conversations and Siskin should cover most users, right?

jonas’: sure thing.

jonas’: just that yax.im isn't exactly a highly available machine

true again

I could also add a vhost to the s.j.n host (where I can comfortably give others shell)

and it's got a bus factor of 1

xmpp.org doesn't have any users btw? (unrelated)

apart from memberbot, no

maybe apart from memberbot

jinx!

jonas’: don't get me wrong, I'd immediately set up whatever is required to host user accounts on my box, it's just not the perfect place to convince IETF people of the awesomeness of xmpp

IETF does have an ejabberd running, so it someone with ejabberd know-how might be able to help them hook that up some SSO with their document management thing

I’ll also be happy to provide a monitored empty debian-buster box.

jabber.ietf.org is just a MUC server

Info> ietf.org is running ejabberd version 19.08 Oh.

wow, the list is so long I can't scroll it

https://search.jabber.network/search?q=%40jabber.ietf.org

but 19.08 should be sane enough for all of their requirements, right?

what are their requirements? ;)

but probably yes

jonas’: "modern IM"

19.08 should do then I guess

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/DHy4rk5qxBjIb4hOTRH0E3pFJqg/

I suppose we'd need Holger to volunteer re ejabberd maintenance

yes

Error> No Contact Addresses for ietf.org

Meh.

and maybe also jcbrand to support a converse setup there

Are we volunteering Holger already

pep., yeah of course, mdosch was volunteered to be member of editor@ just a few hours after his election ;)

can’t wait that much longer with holger!

sgtm

heh, one of the users in the IETF hallways is running on yax.im

Yes yes. I'll ask the XSF to double my member's salary and we're good to go.

Holger, GRANTED! There you go.

You know you need Board approval for that

Come on

oh sorry

MattJ, can I? ;)

You'll have to wait a few weeks

MattJ: well, technically the only "salary" you get is the Summit Dinner, and you can bring another person, so...

One week to approve the discussion, one week for people to be busy, another week to decide we need a work team to approve salaries

I find your lack of faith disturbing

Oh I have faith, it will be approved ;)

Before or after the next Board election?

Yes

BTW, https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/jabber/

> Yes yes. I'll ask the XSF to double my member's salary and we're good to go. You've been in almost a week now, right? 🙂

fwiw I'd also be willing to help out for the IETF if spare hands are needed

I think this is more about being able to guarantee long-term support than to find volunteers that can do things right now.

Ge0rG, it'd be great to have them update that page yeah :/

also see: jabber.org

looks like Glen is the server admin, see https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/dGQaXplloQp9J8CwKFhWWt2IDJY/

interesting that he lists ignite as the first server

at that time, I don't think it had registrations enabled.

So we should: - contact Glen directly, maybe offering help to set up ietf.org as the xmpp user domain for the members? - send a PoC suggestion to the ML, offering to run a webchat fronted for them? - offer a PR to that page?

yes.

Ge0rG, yes & yes & yes

in what order?

we should also get glen into operators@

By the power of "if you can get two others to agree with your proposal, go ahead!", .... go for it

Ge0rG, go with Glen first

CC to anybody?

feel free to put any of the email addresses you have of me in CC and tell them that I’ll also be happy to help with trying to establish links to other operators and debugging remote issues

since I have some experience with that as I run s.j.n

and o.j.n.

also point them at o.j.n because we by now have a bunch of prober accounts where we do have contact info to trace down issues ✏

anybody else wants to be in CC?

point them at operators@ (both the ML and the chat) and invite them to also add me directly to their contacts if that helps

(though in that case, I prefer the @zombofant.net JID)

I can’t help with ejabberd admin unfortunately, but I’ll be happy to help with anything I can do around that.

Ge0rG if needed, I'd be happy to help with Openfire-specific issues that they might have (I read that they push that impl) - I'd actually love to get their feedback on that. I'll be less involved with the more generic solution though

jcbrand: do you happen to be awake and available?

I can probably (try to) help with Prosody connectivity issues, if there's a need for one dev per server impl 🙂

it certainly doesn’t hurt

pity that stpeter isn’t around

Yup.

stpeter has previously tried to encourage them to improve things here, not sure who he was talking to

FWIW, I’ll also be happy to provider longer-term support for this issue, I can’t do the short-term stuff right now though.

(cc @ Guus ^)

> anybody else wants to be in CC?

(and maybe don’t mention that in the email, Ge0rG :))

Ge0rG, does it have to be a private email? Can it happen on operators@?

pep.: it might be impolite to invite somebody to an ML by crossposting there

Ah

also, this is an offer specific to IETF - not something suitable for the more generic operators mailinglist.

Guus, sure, that doesn't prevent us from doing that in public

Ge0rG, for the PoC suggestion: I unfortunately 100% lack experience with running converse.js, so I can’t really support there.

jonas’: https://op-co.de/tmp/glen-xmpp-mail.txt

Ge0rG, expand the first reference to XSF

> > anybody else wants to be in CC?

Ge0rG, link to https://xmpp.org/chat#converse/room?jid=operators@muc.xmpp.org for the operators@ room

jonas’: added

Ge0rG: Feel free to add me.

Holger: also as a cosignatory?

Ge0rG, I’d like to re-read this with the fixes, can you let me know when you updated it?

Ge0rG: Sure (as you see fit).

jonas’: updated

Ge0rG, maybe add affiliations to the signatures? e.g. Georg Lukas (yax.im admin, JabberSPAM founder) Jonas Schäfer (observe.jabber.network and search.jabber.network operator) Holger Weiß (conversations.im operator)

jonas’: thought about that

Holger is also an ejabberd developer, can't leave that out

oh, very true

I thought about how to slip an ejabberd affiliation in there, but I didn’t come up with the obvious

ETOOMANYTITLES :x

another update

Ge0rG, if we want to further polish this, s/webchat/anonymous webchat/

nah

s/better service monitoring/additional service monitoring/

since we don’t know what they currently have

roger

and claiming that o.j.n will be "better" is presumptuous or however you type that word ✏

Holger: any feedback from you?

Don't overpolish things - this is great.

mail sent

Yes, looked good to me.

Ge0rG, thank you very much for typing the words

someone explain to me why fairemail includes the trailing / in the linkification of o.j.n, but not for s.j.n

They should add an option for whether or not to include trailing /.

Okay, now does it make sense to respond to https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/DHy4rk5qxBjIb4hOTRH0E3pFJqg/ ?

yes

I think I would have responded there in the first place rather

pep.: but you haven't

I haven't :)

First, rebut the individual non-facts. Second, hint that we contacted Glen off-list to offer support.

jonas’: I don't want to go to their place and start a fight about perceived realities

Ge0rG, then skip the reply for now and see what Glen says

are there any of the suggested steps that we could do right now, proactively?

like... rm -rf pidgin from the internet

publish a "Pidgin considered harmful" blogpost? ;D

also why is adium listed on https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html

because neutrality?

Is it maintained? Who renewed it?

Zash: Robbie <robertvehse@fastmail.fm> did

No Dino, poezio or profanity there. This em thing doesn't look like an xmpp client. ✏

Nor Conversations

what

the latter is really a problem

Looks like all those were renewed last 14 months ago

I'd really like the maintainers to do that job

Maintainers of popular modern clients are likely busy with maintainging/developing the client

Otherwise the periodic update to get rid of unmaintained clients is pointless

And unmaintained clients have gathered a bazillion fans over the years, who will never let them get kicked off the list

Here, poezio and slix PR

I personally think that list is harmful, but :x

Anyone wanna build a Better List?

https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/775 somebody plz(?)

iirc the thought behind the auto-expiry is that unmantained clients would fall off and that only good active ones would be left, but it looks like the opposite happened

unintended consequences are the best kind

I don't mind PR for the other 3 clients that were mentioned

4. Seems like Movim isn't in there either

still unclear, I thought the rule was only the developer could PR their client in

Nor SàT..

Hmmmmm/ https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/588

moparisthebest, happy to wait for an ACK

Zash: yeah.

ah ok, glad I'm not the only one unclear on it

Nobody is clear with that.. :/

that looks like some nice board AOB for you there pep. :)

It was already discussed at some point, and iirc the result was "case-by-case" or sth..

don't remember exactly

https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2019-07-25?p=h#2019-07-25-ea7cec0e0a9fc4ca

without criteria that doesn't seem helpful

people should just read https://xmpp.org/2017/03/new-xmpp-software-listing-rules/ ;)

Could someone not on a corporate workstation add that link to that PR?

To what PR

Link to https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2019-07-25?p=h#2019-07-25-ea7cec0e0a9fc4ca in https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/588

Ah, that was the PR that was problematic, right

but that PR got merged already

For future reference etc

Seems like everybody renewed their clients on 07-16..

Probably a batch operation already

That PR?

Ahh

all that makes me sad

Or batch merge?

Zash, probably that PR yeah

https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/776 Daniel https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/777 edhelas https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/778 larma

pep.: can I ack in here?

Sure

It's just for whoever is going to merge

Ack ✏

I merged all of them

they are active projects, I happen to know that

:P

Seems like the poezio one is still up there :(

I know it's not that active..

active enough

\o/

Happy to know that Movim is active

There's also a PR for openfire

where?

(I only see a merged one ;))

:)

And still no https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/775 ?

done

Thanks

done

(profanity)

I recently learnt that I have +w on that repo again

jonas’: but you knowing about active projects is highly subjective!

also I'd like to see compliance badges in there, even if the minimal non-designed ones

Ge0rG, "PRs welcome"

jonas’: ah, that interesting tooling.

Ge0rG, +1 for Compliance Badges (even basic non-designed ones)

wurstsalat: PRs welcome! :DDD

DOAP?

(I'm away before somebody says PR welcome)

and yes, DOAP > Compliance extaction

maybe unmaintained clients won’t ever get a DOAP file? :)

So we accept every project that comes our way (is this really neutral?), but we're very eager not to accept some of them :)

pep., PRs welcome!

Ah fail, I was still here!

wurstsalat, interesting idea

pep., moohahahaha

doap?

I think it would be good to have one or two badges per implementation in that list

eta, Description of a Project (an xml file)

eta: example at https://yaxim.org/doap/yaxim.rdf.xml

eta, https://lab.louiz.org/poezio/poezio/-/blob/master/data/doap.xml

ah

It's not used anywhere yet though

Just linked from json files in the xmpp.org repo

problem with project-hosted DOAP is that the website build would then depend on the availability of that XML file

Until someday somebody does something

which is not cool

and gets less cooler with every additional project doing that

jonas’, yeah we might have to cache slightly :/

which requires extra infrastructure

got also mine there https://github.com/movim/movim/blob/master/doap.xml

jonas’: would a subdirectory full of doap files inside the data/ directory be better?

Ge0rG, no, because then projects would have two places where they need to keep their DOAP up-to-date

for active clients it might be a significant Editor burden to keep up with the PRs

btw Link Mauve, https://linkmauve.fr/ns/xmpp-doap, is this supposed to parse error

which is about as bad as the current listing situation

Ge0rG, Editor is not responsible for xmpp.org

Commteam is

:>

So what would be a serious, usable, approach to keep badges on the implementation list?

Automate with doap is the only thing that will scale imho

Ge0rG, jonas’ hello, I'm now here and awake

jcbrand: we sold you to the IETF to set up a smooth-running converse.js instance so that they don't need to use slack.

From my reading, you want to help the IETF by hosting a server and webchat (and maybe other things) for them?

jcbrand: I sent https://op-co.de/tmp/glen-xmpp-mail.txt to the IETF xmpp admin. Let's see what happens next

Sounds like it's for a good cause

That thread on ietf@ is alread three days old, so we probably should also chime in in a friendly way there and give them a taste of modern XMPP.

jcbrand, good morning!

I don't know if we can give them Conversations gift codes or something ;)

FWIW, I'd be happy to help out and set something up for them.

jcbrand: thanks very much, I'll keep that in mind

is the converse instance on xmpp.org up-to-date?

Probably not, but I never touched it. If someone gives me access, I can try to help there as well. I intend to release Converse 7 soonish (before the end of the month) and can then update it in various places. Having access to deployments like that can also help me test for specific use-cases so that I know something's not broken.

(before releasing)

jcbrand: I have a 5.0.3 instance with a slightly cumbersome path setup running on https://yaxim.org/chat/ where I'd be glad to have a hand

I know I had issues with it, as I want it to work for both mobile and desktop, and I wrote about it in https://github.com/conversejs/converse.js/issues/1057

jcbrand, end of month is in less than 24 hours ... are you sure? :)

jonas’ ahem... end of September

Ge0rG Yeah, I remember your tickets about mobile issues. I can try to help with updating it to Converse 7, and capturing tickets for issues. I can't promise fixing mobile issues timeously though.

I don't rememeber anymore what I did (and if at all) to make 5.0.3 work.

Though I must admit, the adium renewal is a good example of the "maintainer must do an update to ensure up-to-date implementation" going wrong.

Ge0rG, that CC escalated *quickly*

jonas’: oh yes indeed

but nice and extensive response

Are you going to keep the suspense longer? :P

pep.: nobody is going to paste from private conversations.

TL;DReceive?

What is this doing here then

You could use snikket instead, for the invite stuff

TL;DR: we were thanked for our offer but Glen is not the right person, so the mail was forwarded to multiple IETF representatives

TL;DR: not quite the correct person to address, but he CC’d a bunch of other people who are the correct addressees and may have opinions on matters

heh

good that we read the same email :D

Meh. https://github.com/ietf/www.ietf.org

:/

I thought about submitting a PR to exterminate pidgin

and Adium is... well.. as questionable

Especially with the existence of alternatives

which alternatives are there?

BeagleIM iirc

And monal maybe?

> Previously issue tracking for new www.ietf.org IETF website. Please send issues to webmaster@ietf.org So email instead of PR :)

mdosch: that doesn't scale well

Send a patch to that email address*

Ah wait there's no code

a patch for the HTML?

Convert the HTML to Markdown and send a patch for that.

Submit an Internet-Draft

yea why don't web browsers have integrated markdown processors yet

Why don

I'm sorry for suggesting that already

They have a subset of markdown

Why don't the at least show the plain text?

wurstsalat, oh sorry

wurstsalat, there I fixed it

Thank you jonas’ :)

We should have called it MAMa, because of how well it cares for our messages

:D