XSF Discussion - 2020-08-31

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  204. flow https://blogs.gentoo.org/mgorny/2020/08/25/is-an-umbrella-organization-a-good-choice-for-gentoo/ reminds me a little bit about us (i.e. the XSF)
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  206. flow not sure how the XSF's standing with the IRS is ;)
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  212. Guus I am not aware of any issues with the IRS.
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  308. Ge0rG So that recent IETF thread make me think... are we able and willing to offer our help to the IETF to run a modern XMPP server for them?
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  313. jonas’ willing yes
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  316. jonas’ able: I’d be happy to support with that if it isn’t open-registration
  317. pep. Can somebody tldr the thread? "hey we're in 2020, we want features. Here have a Slack instance"?
  318. Ge0rG pep.: kinda sorta
  319. Ge0rG pep.: also XMPP prejudice based on experiences from 2005
  320. jonas’ so I can’t in the next month, but I’d be happy to help supporting in the long term
  321. jonas’ I have some experience in monitoring things
  322. pep. Do they have clients for the server we'd provide?
  323. Ge0rG jonas’: that's something that needs to be done right now, though
  324. pep. With features(tm)
  325. Ge0rG pep.: educating them about modern clients would be part of the task
  326. jonas’ Ge0rG, I can’t do right now, I have literally no time for any additional tasks until the move is over
  327. jonas’ the remaining buffer time is reserved for emergencies
  328. jonas’ (and user requests like "add me to o.j.n")
  329. jonas’ Ge0rG, but we can surely send out the offer and then find someone to do it
  330. Ge0rG jonas’: maybe my comment was not directed to you as much as a general call to action for the XSF / Board / iteam
  331. pep. Ge0rG: you mean the great web clients we have? :p
  332. jonas’ maybe we can get Holger to provide them with a free account and C download?
  333. jonas’ Holger + Daniel that is
  334. jonas’ Ge0rG, or you could spin up a vhost on yax.im?
  335. jonas’ as a demo server
  336. Ge0rG pep.: Converse, Conversations and Siskin should cover most users, right?
  337. Ge0rG jonas’: sure thing.
  338. Ge0rG jonas’: just that yax.im isn't exactly a highly available machine
  339. jonas’ true again
  340. jonas’ I could also add a vhost to the s.j.n host (where I can comfortably give others shell)
  341. Ge0rG and it's got a bus factor of 1
  342. pep. xmpp.org doesn't have any users btw? (unrelated)
  343. Zash apart from memberbot, no
  344. pep. maybe apart from memberbot
  345. Zash jinx!
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  347. Ge0rG jonas’: don't get me wrong, I'd immediately set up whatever is required to host user accounts on my box, it's just not the perfect place to convince IETF people of the awesomeness of xmpp
  348. Zash IETF does have an ejabberd running, so it someone with ejabberd know-how might be able to help them hook that up some SSO with their document management thing
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  351. jonas’ I’ll also be happy to provide a monitored empty debian-buster box.
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  353. Ge0rG jabber.ietf.org is just a MUC server
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  355. Ge0rG Info> ietf.org is running ejabberd version 19.08 Oh.
  356. Ge0rG wow, the list is so long I can't scroll it
  357. jonas’ https://search.jabber.network/search?q=%40jabber.ietf.org
  358. Ge0rG but 19.08 should be sane enough for all of their requirements, right?
  359. jonas’ what are their requirements? ;)
  360. jonas’ but probably yes
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  362. Ge0rG jonas’: "modern IM"
  363. jonas’ 19.08 should do then I guess
  364. Ge0rG https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/DHy4rk5qxBjIb4hOTRH0E3pFJqg/
  365. Ge0rG I suppose we'd need Holger to volunteer re ejabberd maintenance
  366. jonas’ yes
  367. Ge0rG Error> No Contact Addresses for ietf.org
  368. Ge0rG Meh.
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  370. jonas’ and maybe also jcbrand to support a converse setup there
  371. pep. Are we volunteering Holger already
  372. jonas’ pep., yeah of course, mdosch was volunteered to be member of editor@ just a few hours after his election ;)
  373. jonas’ can’t wait that much longer with holger!
  374. pep. sgtm
  375. Ge0rG heh, one of the users in the IETF hallways is running on yax.im
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  377. Holger Yes yes. I'll ask the XSF to double my member's salary and we're good to go.
  378. jonas’ Holger, GRANTED! There you go.
  379. MattJ You know you need Board approval for that
  380. MattJ Come on
  381. jonas’ oh sorry
  382. jonas’ MattJ, can I? ;)
  383. MattJ You'll have to wait a few weeks
  384. Ge0rG MattJ: well, technically the only "salary" you get is the Summit Dinner, and you can bring another person, so...
  385. MattJ One week to approve the discussion, one week for people to be busy, another week to decide we need a work team to approve salaries
  386. jonas’ I find your lack of faith disturbing
  387. MattJ Oh I have faith, it will be approved ;)
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  389. Zash Before or after the next Board election?
  390. MattJ Yes
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  392. Ge0rG BTW, https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/jabber/
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  394. Guus > Yes yes. I'll ask the XSF to double my member's salary and we're good to go. You've been in almost a week now, right? 🙂
  395. eta fwiw I'd also be willing to help out for the IETF if spare hands are needed
  396. Guus I think this is more about being able to guarantee long-term support than to find volunteers that can do things right now.
  397. pep. Ge0rG, it'd be great to have them update that page yeah :/
  398. Guus also see: jabber.org
  399. Ge0rG looks like Glen is the server admin, see https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/dGQaXplloQp9J8CwKFhWWt2IDJY/
  400. Guus interesting that he lists ignite as the first server
  401. Guus at that time, I don't think it had registrations enabled.
  402. Ge0rG So we should: - contact Glen directly, maybe offering help to set up ietf.org as the xmpp user domain for the members? - send a PoC suggestion to the ML, offering to run a webchat fronted for them? - offer a PR to that page?
  403. Guus yes.
  404. jonas’ Ge0rG, yes & yes & yes
  405. Ge0rG in what order?
  406. jonas’ we should also get glen into operators@
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  408. Zash By the power of "if you can get two others to agree with your proposal, go ahead!", .... go for it
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  411. jonas’ Ge0rG, go with Glen first
  412. Ge0rG CC to anybody?
  413. jonas’ feel free to put any of the email addresses you have of me in CC and tell them that I’ll also be happy to help with trying to establish links to other operators and debugging remote issues
  414. jonas’ since I have some experience with that as I run s.j.n
  415. Ge0rG and o.j.n.
  416. jonas’ also point them at o.j.n because we by now ... exactly.
  417. jonas’ also point them at o.j.n because we by now have a bunch of prober accounts where we do have contact info to trace down issues
  418. Ge0rG anybody else wants to be in CC?
  419. jonas’ point them at operators@ (both the ML and the chat) and invite them to also add me directly to their contacts if that helps
  420. jonas’ (though in that case, I prefer the @zombofant.net JID)
  421. jonas’ I can’t help with ejabberd admin unfortunately, but I’ll be happy to help with anything I can do around that.
  422. Guus Ge0rG if needed, I'd be happy to help with Openfire-specific issues that they might have (I read that they push that impl) - I'd actually love to get their feedback on that. I'll be less involved with the more generic solution though
  423. Ge0rG jcbrand: do you happen to be awake and available?
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  428. Zash I can probably (try to) help with Prosody connectivity issues, if there's a need for one dev per server impl 🙂
  429. jonas’ it certainly doesn’t hurt
  430. jonas’ pity that stpeter isn’t around
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  432. Ge0rG Yup.
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  434. MattJ stpeter has previously tried to encourage them to improve things here, not sure who he was talking to
  435. jonas’ FWIW, I’ll also be happy to provider longer-term support for this issue, I can’t do the short-term stuff right now though.
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  437. jonas’ (cc @ Guus ^)
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  439. Ge0rG > anybody else wants to be in CC?
  440. jonas’ (and maybe don’t mention that in the email, Ge0rG :))
  441. pep. Ge0rG, does it have to be a private email? Can it happen on operators@?
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  443. Ge0rG pep.: it might be impolite to invite somebody to an ML by crossposting there
  444. pep. Ah
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  446. Guus also, this is an offer specific to IETF - not something suitable for the more generic operators mailinglist.
  447. pep. Guus, sure, that doesn't prevent us from doing that in public
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  449. jonas’ Ge0rG, for the PoC suggestion: I unfortunately 100% lack experience with running converse.js, so I can’t really support there.
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  451. Ge0rG jonas’: https://op-co.de/tmp/glen-xmpp-mail.txt
  452. jonas’ Ge0rG, expand the first reference to XSF
  453. Ge0rG > > anybody else wants to be in CC?
  454. jonas’ Ge0rG, link to https://xmpp.org/chat#converse/room?jid=operators@muc.xmpp.org for the operators@ room
  455. Ge0rG jonas’: added
  456. Holger Ge0rG: Feel free to add me.
  457. Ge0rG Holger: also as a cosignatory?
  458. jonas’ Ge0rG, I’d like to re-read this with the fixes, can you let me know when you updated it?
  459. Holger Ge0rG: Sure (as you see fit).
  460. Ge0rG jonas’: updated
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  462. jonas’ Ge0rG, maybe add affiliations to the signatures? e.g. Georg Lukas (yax.im admin, JabberSPAM founder) Jonas Schäfer (observe.jabber.network and search.jabber.network operator) Holger Weiß (conversations.im operator)
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  464. Ge0rG jonas’: thought about that
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  466. Ge0rG Holger is also an ejabberd developer, can't leave that out
  467. jonas’ oh, very true
  468. jonas’ I thought about how to slip an ejabberd affiliation in there, but I didn’t come up with the obvious
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  470. pep. ETOOMANYTITLES :x
  471. Ge0rG another update
  472. jonas’ Ge0rG, if we want to further polish this, s/webchat/anonymous webchat/
  473. Ge0rG nah
  474. jonas’ s/better service monitoring/additional service monitoring/
  475. jonas’ since we don’t know what they currently have
  476. Ge0rG roger
  477. jonas’ and claiming that o.j.n will be "better" is presumptuous or however you type thath word
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  479. jonas’ and claiming that o.j.n will be "better" is presumptuous or however you type that word
  480. Ge0rG Holger: any feedback from you?
  481. Guus Don't overpolish things - this is great.
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  483. Ge0rG mail sent
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  485. Holger Yes, looked good to me.
  486. jonas’ Ge0rG, thank you very much for typing the words
  487. jonas’ someone explain to me why fairemail includes the trailing / in the linkification of o.j.n, but not for s.j.n
  488. Holger They should add an option for whether or not to include trailing /.
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  494. Ge0rG Okay, now does it make sense to respond to https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/DHy4rk5qxBjIb4hOTRH0E3pFJqg/ ?
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  505. jonas’ yes
  506. pep. I think I would have responded there in the first place rather
  507. Ge0rG pep.: but you haven't
  508. pep. I haven't :)
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  510. jonas’ First, rebut the individual non-facts. Second, hint that we contacted Glen off-list to offer support.
  511. Ge0rG jonas’: I don't want to go to their place and start a fight about perceived realities
  512. jonas’ Ge0rG, then skip the reply for now and see what Glen says
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  514. Ge0rG are there any of the suggested steps that we could do right now, proactively?
  515. Ge0rG like... rm -rf pidgin from the internet
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  522. jonas’ publish a "Pidgin considered harmful" blogpost? ;D
  523. Ge0rG also why is adium listed on https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html
  524. jonas’ because neutrality?
  525. mukt2 has joined
  526. Zash Is it maintained? Who renewed it?
  527. Ge0rG Zash: Robbie <robertvehse@fastmail.fm> did
  528. mdosch No Dino or profanity there. This em thing doesn't look like an xmpp client.
  529. mdosch No Dino, poezio or profanity there. This em thing doesn't look like an xmpp client.
  530. pep. Nor Conversations
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  533. jonas’ what
  534. jonas’ the latter is really a problem
  535. Zash Looks like all those were renewed last 14 months ago
  536. Ge0rG I'd really like the maintainers to do that job
  537. Zash Maintainers of popular modern clients are likely busy with maintainging/developing the client
  538. Ge0rG Otherwise the periodic update to get rid of unmaintained clients is pointless
  539. Zash And unmaintained clients have gathered a bazillion fans over the years, who will never let them get kicked off the list
  540. pep. Here, poezio and slix PR
  541. pep. I personally think that list is harmful, but :x
  542. Zash Anyone wanna build a Better List?
  543. pep. https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/775 somebody plz(?)
  544. moparisthebest iirc the thought behind the auto-expiry is that unmantained clients would fall off and that only good active ones would be left, but it looks like the opposite happened
  545. moparisthebest unintended consequences are the best kind
  546. pep. I don't mind PR for the other 3 clients that were mentioned
  547. pep. 4. Seems like Movim isn't in there either
  548. moparisthebest still unclear, I thought the rule was only the developer could PR their client in
  549. pep. Nor SàT..
  550. Zash Hmmmmm/ https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/588
  551. pep. moparisthebest, happy to wait for an ACK
  552. Ge0rG Zash: yeah.
  553. moparisthebest ah ok, glad I'm not the only one unclear on it
  554. pep. Nobody is clear with that.. :/
  555. moparisthebest that looks like some nice board AOB for you there pep. :)
  556. pep. It was already discussed at some point, and iirc the result was "case-by-case" or sth..
  557. pep. don't remember exactly
  558. Zash https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2019-07-25?p=h#2019-07-25-ea7cec0e0a9fc4ca
  559. moparisthebest without criteria that doesn't seem helpful
  560. Ge0rG people should just read https://xmpp.org/2017/03/new-xmpp-software-listing-rules/ ;)
  561. Zash Could someone not on a corporate workstation add that link to that PR?
  562. pep. To what PR
  563. Zash Link to https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2019-07-25?p=h#2019-07-25-ea7cec0e0a9fc4ca in https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/588
  564. pep. Ah, that was the PR that was problematic, right
  565. Ge0rG but that PR got merged already
  566. Zash For future reference etc
  567. pep. Seems like everybody renewed their clients on 07-16..
  568. pep. Probably a batch operation already
  569. Zash That PR?
  570. pep. Ahh
  571. Ge0rG all that makes me sad
  572. Zash Or batch merge?
  573. pep. Zash, probably that PR yeah
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  578. pep. https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/776 Daniel https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/777 edhelas https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/778 larma
  579. Daniel pep.: can I ack in here?
  580. pep. Sure
  581. Daniel Acj
  582. pep. It's just for whoever is going to merge
  583. Daniel Ack
  584. jonas’ I merged all of them
  585. jonas’ they are active projects, I happen to know that
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  587. pep. :P
  588. pep. Seems like the poezio one is still up there :(
  589. pep. I know it's not that active..
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  591. jonas’ active enough
  592. edhelas \o/
  593. edhelas Happy to know that Movim is active
  594. pep. There's also a PR for openfire
  595. jonas’ where?
  596. jonas’ (I only see a merged one ;))
  597. pep. :)
  598. pep. And still no https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/775 ?
  599. jonas’ done
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  601. pep. Thanks
  602. winfried has joined
  603. jonas’ done
  604. jonas’ (profanity)
  605. jonas’ I recently learnt that I have +w on that repo again
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  608. Ge0rG jonas’: but you knowing about active projects is highly subjective!
  609. Ge0rG also I'd like to see compliance badges in there, even if the minimal non-designed ones
  610. jonas’ Ge0rG, "PRs welcome"
  611. Ge0rG jonas’: ah, that interesting tooling.
  612. wurstsalat Ge0rG, +1 for Compliance Badges (even basic non-designed ones)
  613. Ge0rG wurstsalat: PRs welcome! :DDD
  614. pep. DOAP?
  615. pep. (I'm away before somebody says PR welcome)
  616. wurstsalat and yes, DOAP > Compliance extaction
  617. wurstsalat maybe unmaintained clients won’t ever get a DOAP file? :)
  618. pep. So we accept every project that comes our way (is this really neutral?), but we're very eager not to accept some of them :)
  619. jonas’ pep., PRs welcome!
  620. pep. Ah fail, I was still here!
  621. jonas’ wurstsalat, interesting idea
  622. jonas’ pep., moohahahaha
  623. eta doap?
  624. Ge0rG I think it would be good to have one or two badges per implementation in that list
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  626. wurstsalat eta, Description of a Project (an xml file)
  627. Ge0rG eta: example at https://yaxim.org/doap/yaxim.rdf.xml
  628. pep. eta, https://lab.louiz.org/poezio/poezio/-/blob/master/data/doap.xml
  629. eta ah
  630. pep. It's not used anywhere yet though
  631. pep. Just linked from json files in the xmpp.org repo
  632. jonas’ problem with project-hosted DOAP is that the website build would then depend on the availability of that XML file
  633. pep. Until someday somebody does something
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  636. jonas’ which is not cool
  637. jonas’ and gets less cooler with every additional project doing that
  638. pep. jonas’, yeah we might have to cache slightly :/
  639. jonas’ which requires extra infrastructure
  640. edhelas got also mine there https://github.com/movim/movim/blob/master/doap.xml
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  644. Ge0rG jonas’: would a subdirectory full of doap files inside the data/ directory be better?
  645. jonas’ Ge0rG, no, because then projects would have two places where they need to keep their DOAP up-to-date
  646. Ge0rG for active clients it might be a significant Editor burden to keep up with the PRs
  647. pep. btw Link Mauve, https://linkmauve.fr/ns/xmpp-doap, is this supposed to parse error
  648. jonas’ which is about as bad as the current listing situation
  649. jonas’ Ge0rG, Editor is not responsible for xmpp.org
  650. jonas’ Commteam is
  651. jonas’ :>
  652. Ge0rG So what would be a serious, usable, approach to keep badges on the implementation list?
  653. Daniel Automate with doap is the only thing that will scale imho
  654. jcbrand Ge0rG, jonas’ hello, I'm now here and awake
  655. Ge0rG jcbrand: we sold you to the IETF to set up a smooth-running converse.js instance so that they don't need to use slack.
  656. jcbrand From my reading, you want to help the IETF by hosting a server and webchat (and maybe other things) for them?
  657. mukt2 has left
  658. Ge0rG jcbrand: I sent https://op-co.de/tmp/glen-xmpp-mail.txt to the IETF xmpp admin. Let's see what happens next
  659. jcbrand Sounds like it's for a good cause
  660. Ge0rG That thread on ietf@ is alread three days old, so we probably should also chime in in a friendly way there and give them a taste of modern XMPP.
  661. jonas’ jcbrand, good morning!
  662. Ge0rG I don't know if we can give them Conversations gift codes or something ;)
  663. jcbrand FWIW, I'd be happy to help out and set something up for them.
  664. eta whispers "use pix-art"
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  667. Ge0rG jcbrand: thanks very much, I'll keep that in mind
  668. Ge0rG is the converse instance on xmpp.org up-to-date?
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  671. jcbrand Probably not, but I never touched it. If someone gives me access, I can try to help there as well. I intend to release Converse 7 soonish (before the end of the month) and can then update it in various places. Having access to deployments like that can also help me test for specific use-cases so that I know something's not broken.
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  673. jcbrand (before releasing)
  674. Ge0rG jcbrand: I have a 5.0.3 instance with a slightly cumbersome path setup running on https://yaxim.org/chat/ where I'd be glad to have a hand
  675. Ge0rG I know I had issues with it, as I want it to work for both mobile and desktop, and I wrote about it in https://github.com/conversejs/converse.js/issues/1057
  676. jonas’ jcbrand, end of month is in less than 24 hours ... are you sure? :)
  677. jcbrand jonas’ ahem... end of September
  678. jcbrand Ge0rG Yeah, I remember your tickets about mobile issues. I can try to help with updating it to Converse 7, and capturing tickets for issues. I can't promise fixing mobile issues timeously though.
  679. Ge0rG I don't rememeber anymore what I did (and if at all) to make 5.0.3 work.
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  683. Ge0rG Though I must admit, the adium renewal is a good example of the "maintainer must do an update to ensure up-to-date implementation" going wrong.
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  724. jonas’ Ge0rG, that CC escalated *quickly*
  725. Ge0rG jonas’: oh yes indeed
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  731. jonas’ but nice and extensive response
  732. pep. Are you going to keep the suspense longer? :P
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  734. Ge0rG pep.: nobody is going to paste from private conversations.
  735. Zash TL;DReceive?
  736. pep. What is this doing here then
  737. moparisthebest You could use snikket instead, for the invite stuff
  738. Ge0rG TL;DR: we were thanked for our offer but Glen is not the right person, so the mail was forwarded to multiple IETF representatives
  739. jonas’ TL;DR: not quite the correct person to address, but he CC’d a bunch of other people who are the correct addressees and may have opinions on matters
  740. Ge0rG heh
  741. jonas’ good that we read the same email :D
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  745. Ge0rG Meh. https://github.com/ietf/www.ietf.org
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  748. jonas’ :/
  749. sonny has left
  750. Ge0rG I thought about submitting a PR to exterminate pidgin
  751. Ge0rG and Adium is... well.. as questionable
  752. pep. Especially with the existence of alternatives
  753. Ge0rG which alternatives are there?
  754. pep. BeagleIM iirc
  755. pep. And monal maybe?
  756. mdosch > Previously issue tracking for new www.ietf.org IETF website. Please send issues to webmaster@ietf.org So email instead of PR :)
  757. sonny has joined
  758. Ge0rG mdosch: that doesn't scale well
  759. pep. Send a patch to that email address*
  760. pep. Ah wait there's no code
  761. Ge0rG a patch for the HTML?
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  764. Zash Convert the HTML to Markdown and send a patch for that.
  765. Ge0rG converts Zash to markdown
  766. Zash Submit an Internet-Draft
  767. moparisthebest yea why don't web browsers have integrated markdown processors yet
  768. Zash Why don
  769. moparisthebest I'm sorry for suggesting that already
  770. pep. They have a subset of markdown
  771. Zash Why don't the at least show the plain text?
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  810. wurstsalat adds XEP-0441 to DOAP file, but https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0441.html still 404s
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  831. jonas’ wurstsalat, oh sorry
  832. jonas’ wurstsalat, there I fixed it
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  835. wurstsalat Thank you jonas’ :)
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  874. Ge0rG We should have called it MAMa, because of how well it cares for our messages
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  932. lovetox :D
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