https://blogs.gentoo.org/mgorny/2020/08/25/is-an-umbrella-organization-a-good-choice-for-gentoo/ reminds me a little bit about us (i.e. the XSF)
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flow
not sure how the XSF's standing with the IRS is ;)
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Guus
I am not aware of any issues with the IRS.
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Ge0rG
So that recent IETF thread make me think... are we able and willing to offer our help to the IETF to run a modern XMPP server for them?
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jonasβ
willing yes
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jonasβ
able: Iβd be happy to support with that if it isnβt open-registration
pep.
Can somebody tldr the thread? "hey we're in 2020, we want features. Here have a Slack instance"?
Ge0rG
pep.: kinda sorta
Ge0rG
pep.: also XMPP prejudice based on experiences from 2005
jonasβ
so I canβt in the next month, but Iβd be happy to help supporting in the long term
jonasβ
I have some experience in monitoring things
pep.
Do they have clients for the server we'd provide?
Ge0rG
jonasβ: that's something that needs to be done right now, though
pep.
With features(tm)
Ge0rG
pep.: educating them about modern clients would be part of the task
jonasβ
Ge0rG, I canβt do right now, I have literally no time for any additional tasks until the move is over
jonasβ
the remaining buffer time is reserved for emergencies
jonasβ
(and user requests like "add me to o.j.n")
jonasβ
Ge0rG, but we can surely send out the offer and then find someone to do it
Ge0rG
jonasβ: maybe my comment was not directed to you as much as a general call to action for the XSF / Board / iteam
pep.
Ge0rG: you mean the great web clients we have? :p
jonasβ
maybe we can get Holger to provide them with a free account and C download?
jonasβ
Holger + Daniel that is
jonasβ
Ge0rG, or you could spin up a vhost on yax.im?
jonasβ
as a demo server
Ge0rG
pep.: Converse, Conversations and Siskin should cover most users, right?
Ge0rG
jonasβ: sure thing.
Ge0rG
jonasβ: just that yax.im isn't exactly a highly available machine
jonasβ
true again
jonasβ
I could also add a vhost to the s.j.n host (where I can comfortably give others shell)
Ge0rG
and it's got a bus factor of 1
pep.
xmpp.org doesn't have any users btw? (unrelated)
Zash
apart from memberbot, no
pep.
maybe apart from memberbot
Zash
jinx!
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Ge0rG
jonasβ: don't get me wrong, I'd immediately set up whatever is required to host user accounts on my box, it's just not the perfect place to convince IETF people of the awesomeness of xmpp
Zash
IETF does have an ejabberd running, so it someone with ejabberd know-how might be able to help them hook that up some SSO with their document management thing
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jonasβ
Iβll also be happy to provide a monitored empty debian-buster box.
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Ge0rG
jabber.ietf.org is just a MUC server
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Ge0rG
Info> ietf.org is running ejabberd version 19.08
Oh.
I suppose we'd need Holger to volunteer re ejabberd maintenance
jonasβ
yes
Ge0rG
Error> No Contact Addresses for ietf.org
Ge0rG
Meh.
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jonasβ
and maybe also jcbrand to support a converse setup there
pep.
Are we volunteering Holger already
jonasβ
pep., yeah of course, mdosch was volunteered to be member of editor@ just a few hours after his election ;)
jonasβ
canβt wait that much longer with holger!
pep.
sgtm
Ge0rG
heh, one of the users in the IETF hallways is running on yax.im
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Holger
Yes yes. I'll ask the XSF to double my member's salary and we're good to go.
jonasβ
Holger, GRANTED! There you go.
MattJ
You know you need Board approval for that
MattJ
Come on
jonasβ
oh sorry
jonasβ
MattJ, can I? ;)
MattJ
You'll have to wait a few weeks
Ge0rG
MattJ: well, technically the only "salary" you get is the Summit Dinner, and you can bring another person, so...
MattJ
One week to approve the discussion, one week for people to be busy, another week to decide we need a work team to approve salaries
jonasβ
I find your lack of faith disturbing
MattJ
Oh I have faith, it will be approved ;)
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Zash
Before or after the next Board election?
MattJ
Yes
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Ge0rG
BTW, https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/jabber/
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Guus
> Yes yes. I'll ask the XSF to double my member's salary and we're good to go.
You've been in almost a week now, right? π
eta
fwiw I'd also be willing to help out for the IETF if spare hands are needed
Guus
I think this is more about being able to guarantee long-term support than to find volunteers that can do things right now.
pep.
Ge0rG, it'd be great to have them update that page yeah :/
Guus
also see: jabber.org
Ge0rG
looks like Glen is the server admin, see https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/dGQaXplloQp9J8CwKFhWWt2IDJY/
Guus
interesting that he lists ignite as the first server
Guus
at that time, I don't think it had registrations enabled.
Ge0rG
So we should:
- contact Glen directly, maybe offering help to set up ietf.org as the xmpp user domain for the members?
- send a PoC suggestion to the ML, offering to run a webchat fronted for them?
- offer a PR to that page?
Guus
yes.
jonasβ
Ge0rG, yes & yes & yes
Ge0rG
in what order?
jonasβ
we should also get glen into operators@
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Zash
By the power of "if you can get two others to agree with your proposal, go ahead!", .... go for it
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jonasβ
Ge0rG, go with Glen first
Ge0rG
CC to anybody?
jonasβ
feel free to put any of the email addresses you have of me in CC and tell them that Iβll also be happy to help with trying to establish links to other operators and debugging remote issues
jonasβ
since I have some experience with that as I run s.j.n
Ge0rG
and o.j.n.
jonasβ
also point them at o.j.n because we by now ... exactly.✎
jonasβ
also point them at o.j.n because we by now have a bunch of prober accounts where we do have contact info to trace down issues ✏
Ge0rG
anybody else wants to be in CC?
jonasβ
point them at operators@ (both the ML and the chat) and invite them to also add me directly to their contacts if that helps
jonasβ
(though in that case, I prefer the @zombofant.net JID)
jonasβ
I canβt help with ejabberd admin unfortunately, but Iβll be happy to help with anything I can do around that.
Guus
Ge0rG if needed, I'd be happy to help with Openfire-specific issues that they might have (I read that they push that impl) - I'd actually love to get their feedback on that. I'll be less involved with the more generic solution though
Ge0rG
jcbrand: do you happen to be awake and available?
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Zash
I can probably (try to) help with Prosody connectivity issues, if there's a need for one dev per server impl π
jonasβ
it certainly doesnβt hurt
jonasβ
pity that stpeter isnβt around
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Ge0rG
Yup.
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MattJ
stpeter has previously tried to encourage them to improve things here, not sure who he was talking to
jonasβ
FWIW, Iβll also be happy to provider longer-term support for this issue, I canβt do the short-term stuff right now though.
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jonasβ
(cc @ Guus ^)
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Ge0rG
> anybody else wants to be in CC?
jonasβ
(and maybe donβt mention that in the email, Ge0rG :))
pep.
Ge0rG, does it have to be a private email? Can it happen on operators@?
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Ge0rG
pep.: it might be impolite to invite somebody to an ML by crossposting there
pep.
Ah
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Guus
also, this is an offer specific to IETF - not something suitable for the more generic operators mailinglist.
pep.
Guus, sure, that doesn't prevent us from doing that in public
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jonasβ
Ge0rG, for the PoC suggestion: I unfortunately 100% lack experience with running converse.js, so I canβt really support there.
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Ge0rG
jonasβ: https://op-co.de/tmp/glen-xmpp-mail.txt
jonasβ
Ge0rG, expand the first reference to XSF
Ge0rG
> > anybody else wants to be in CC?
jonasβ
Ge0rG, link to https://xmpp.org/chat#converse/room?jid=operators@muc.xmpp.org for the operators@ room
Ge0rG
jonasβ: added
Holger
Ge0rG: Feel free to add me.
Ge0rG
Holger: also as a cosignatory?
jonasβ
Ge0rG, Iβd like to re-read this with the fixes, can you let me know when you updated it?
Holger
Ge0rG: Sure (as you see fit).
Ge0rG
jonasβ: updated
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jonasβ
Ge0rG, maybe add affiliations to the signatures? e.g.
Georg Lukas (yax.im admin, JabberSPAM founder)
Jonas SchΓ€fer (observe.jabber.network and search.jabber.network operator)
Holger WeiΓ (conversations.im operator)
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Ge0rG
jonasβ: thought about that
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Ge0rG
Holger is also an ejabberd developer, can't leave that out
jonasβ
oh, very true
jonasβ
I thought about how to slip an ejabberd affiliation in there, but I didnβt come up with the obvious
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pep.
ETOOMANYTITLES :x
Ge0rG
another update
jonasβ
Ge0rG, if we want to further polish this, s/webchat/anonymous webchat/
Ge0rG
nah
jonasβ
s/better service monitoring/additional service monitoring/
jonasβ
since we donβt know what they currently have
Ge0rG
roger
jonasβ
and claiming that o.j.n will be "better" is presumptuous or however you type thath word✎
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jonasβ
and claiming that o.j.n will be "better" is presumptuous or however you type that word ✏
Ge0rG
Holger: any feedback from you?
Guus
Don't overpolish things - this is great.
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Ge0rG
mail sent
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Holger
Yes, looked good to me.
jonasβ
Ge0rG, thank you very much for typing the words
jonasβ
someone explain to me why fairemail includes the trailing / in the linkification of o.j.n, but not for s.j.n
Holger
They should add an option for whether or not to include trailing /.
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Ge0rG
Okay, now does it make sense to respond to https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/DHy4rk5qxBjIb4hOTRH0E3pFJqg/ ?
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jonasβ
yes
pep.
I think I would have responded there in the first place rather
Ge0rG
pep.: but you haven't
pep.
I haven't :)
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jonasβ
First, rebut the individual non-facts. Second, hint that we contacted Glen off-list to offer support.
Ge0rG
jonasβ: I don't want to go to their place and start a fight about perceived realities
jonasβ
Ge0rG, then skip the reply for now and see what Glen says
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Ge0rG
are there any of the suggested steps that we could do right now, proactively?
Ge0rG
like... rm -rf pidgin from the internet
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jonasβ
publish a "Pidgin considered harmful" blogpost? ;D
Ge0rG
also why is adium listed on https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html
jonasβ
because neutrality?
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Zash
Is it maintained? Who renewed it?
Ge0rG
Zash: Robbie <robertvehse@fastmail.fm> did
mdosch
No Dino or profanity there. This em thing doesn't look like an xmpp client.✎
mdosch
No Dino, poezio or profanity there. This em thing doesn't look like an xmpp client. ✏
pep.
Nor Conversations
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jonasβ
what
jonasβ
the latter is really a problem
Zash
Looks like all those were renewed last 14 months ago
Ge0rG
I'd really like the maintainers to do that job
Zash
Maintainers of popular modern clients are likely busy with maintainging/developing the client
Ge0rG
Otherwise the periodic update to get rid of unmaintained clients is pointless
Zash
And unmaintained clients have gathered a bazillion fans over the years, who will never let them get kicked off the list
iirc the thought behind the auto-expiry is that unmantained clients would fall off and that only good active ones would be left, but it looks like the opposite happened
moparisthebest
unintended consequences are the best kind
pep.
I don't mind PR for the other 3 clients that were mentioned
pep.
4. Seems like Movim isn't in there either
moparisthebest
still unclear, I thought the rule was only the developer could PR their client in
pep.
Nor SΓ T..
Zash
Hmmmmm/ https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/588
pep.
moparisthebest, happy to wait for an ACK
Ge0rG
Zash: yeah.
moparisthebest
ah ok, glad I'm not the only one unclear on it
pep.
Nobody is clear with that.. :/
moparisthebest
that looks like some nice board AOB for you there pep. :)
pep.
It was already discussed at some point, and iirc the result was "case-by-case" or sth..
And still no https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/775 ?
jonasβ
done
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pep.
Thanks
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jonasβ
done
jonasβ
(profanity)
jonasβ
I recently learnt that I have +w on that repo again
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Ge0rG
jonasβ: but you knowing about active projects is highly subjective!
Ge0rG
also I'd like to see compliance badges in there, even if the minimal non-designed ones
jonasβ
Ge0rG, "PRs welcome"
Ge0rG
jonasβ: ah, that interesting tooling.
wurstsalat
Ge0rG, +1 for Compliance Badges (even basic non-designed ones)
Ge0rG
wurstsalat: PRs welcome! :DDD
pep.
DOAP?
pep.
(I'm away before somebody says PR welcome)
wurstsalat
and yes, DOAP > Compliance extaction
wurstsalat
maybe unmaintained clients wonβt ever get a DOAP file? :)
pep.
So we accept every project that comes our way (is this really neutral?), but we're very eager not to accept some of them :)
jonasβ
pep., PRs welcome!
pep.
Ah fail, I was still here!
jonasβ
wurstsalat, interesting idea
jonasβ
pep., moohahahaha
eta
doap?
Ge0rG
I think it would be good to have one or two badges per implementation in that list
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wurstsalat
eta, Description of a Project (an xml file)
Ge0rG
eta: example at https://yaxim.org/doap/yaxim.rdf.xml
pep.
eta, https://lab.louiz.org/poezio/poezio/-/blob/master/data/doap.xml
eta
ah
pep.
It's not used anywhere yet though
pep.
Just linked from json files in the xmpp.org repo
jonasβ
problem with project-hosted DOAP is that the website build would then depend on the availability of that XML file
pep.
Until someday somebody does something
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jonasβ
which is not cool
jonasβ
and gets less cooler with every additional project doing that
pep.
jonasβ, yeah we might have to cache slightly :/
jonasβ
which requires extra infrastructure
edhelas
got also mine there https://github.com/movim/movim/blob/master/doap.xml
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Ge0rG
jonasβ: would a subdirectory full of doap files inside the data/ directory be better?
jonasβ
Ge0rG, no, because then projects would have two places where they need to keep their DOAP up-to-date
Ge0rG
for active clients it might be a significant Editor burden to keep up with the PRs
pep.
btw Link Mauve, https://linkmauve.fr/ns/xmpp-doap, is this supposed to parse error
jonasβ
which is about as bad as the current listing situation
jonasβ
Ge0rG, Editor is not responsible for xmpp.org
jonasβ
Commteam is
jonasβ
:>
Ge0rG
So what would be a serious, usable, approach to keep badges on the implementation list?
Daniel
Automate with doap is the only thing that will scale imho
jcbrand
Ge0rG, jonasβ hello, I'm now here and awake
Ge0rG
jcbrand: we sold you to the IETF to set up a smooth-running converse.js instance so that they don't need to use slack.
jcbrand
From my reading, you want to help the IETF by hosting a server and webchat (and maybe other things) for them?
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Ge0rG
jcbrand: I sent https://op-co.de/tmp/glen-xmpp-mail.txt to the IETF xmpp admin. Let's see what happens next
jcbrand
Sounds like it's for a good cause
Ge0rG
That thread on ietf@ is alread three days old, so we probably should also chime in in a friendly way there and give them a taste of modern XMPP.
jonasβ
jcbrand, good morning!
Ge0rG
I don't know if we can give them Conversations gift codes or something ;)
jcbrand
FWIW, I'd be happy to help out and set something up for them.
etawhispers "use pix-art"
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Ge0rG
jcbrand: thanks very much, I'll keep that in mind
Ge0rG
is the converse instance on xmpp.org up-to-date?
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jcbrand
Probably not, but I never touched it. If someone gives me access, I can try to help there as well.
I intend to release Converse 7 soonish (before the end of the month) and can then update it in various places. Having access to deployments like that can also help me test for specific use-cases so that I know something's not broken.
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jcbrand
(before releasing)
Ge0rG
jcbrand: I have a 5.0.3 instance with a slightly cumbersome path setup running on https://yaxim.org/chat/ where I'd be glad to have a hand
Ge0rG
I know I had issues with it, as I want it to work for both mobile and desktop, and I wrote about it in https://github.com/conversejs/converse.js/issues/1057
jonasβ
jcbrand, end of month is in less than 24 hours ... are you sure? :)
jcbrand
jonasβ ahem... end of September
jcbrand
Ge0rG Yeah, I remember your tickets about mobile issues. I can try to help with updating it to Converse 7, and capturing tickets for issues. I can't promise fixing mobile issues timeously though.
Ge0rG
I don't rememeber anymore what I did (and if at all) to make 5.0.3 work.
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Ge0rG
Though I must admit, the adium renewal is a good example of the "maintainer must do an update to ensure up-to-date implementation" going wrong.
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jonasβ
Ge0rG, that CC escalated *quickly*
Ge0rG
jonasβ: oh yes indeed
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jonasβ
but nice and extensive response
pep.
Are you going to keep the suspense longer? :P
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Ge0rG
pep.: nobody is going to paste from private conversations.
Zash
TL;DReceive?
pep.
What is this doing here then
moparisthebest
You could use snikket instead, for the invite stuff
Ge0rG
TL;DR: we were thanked for our offer but Glen is not the right person, so the mail was forwarded to multiple IETF representatives
jonasβ
TL;DR: not quite the correct person to address, but he CCβd a bunch of other people who are the correct addressees and may have opinions on matters
Ge0rG
heh
jonasβ
good that we read the same email :D
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Ge0rG
Meh. https://github.com/ietf/www.ietf.org
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jonasβ
:/
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Ge0rG
I thought about submitting a PR to exterminate pidgin
Ge0rG
and Adium is... well.. as questionable
pep.
Especially with the existence of alternatives
Ge0rG
which alternatives are there?
pep.
BeagleIM iirc
pep.
And monal maybe?
mdosch
> Previously issue tracking for new www.ietf.org IETF website. Please send issues to webmaster@ietf.org
So email instead of PR :)
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Ge0rG
mdosch: that doesn't scale well
pep.
Send a patch to that email address*
pep.
Ah wait there's no code
Ge0rG
a patch for the HTML?
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Zash
Convert the HTML to Markdown and send a patch for that.
Ge0rGconverts Zash to markdown
Zash
Submit an Internet-Draft
moparisthebest
yea why don't web browsers have integrated markdown processors yet
Zash
Why don
moparisthebest
I'm sorry for suggesting that already
pep.
They have a subset of markdown
Zash
Why don't the at least show the plain text?
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wurstsalatadds XEP-0441 to DOAP file, but https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0441.html still 404s
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jonasβ
wurstsalat, oh sorry
jonasβ
wurstsalat, there I fixed it
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wurstsalat
Thank you jonasβ :)
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Ge0rG
We should have called it MAMa, because of how well it cares for our messages