-
flow
https://blogs.gentoo.org/mgorny/2020/08/25/is-an-umbrella-organization-a-good-choice-for-gentoo/ reminds me a little bit about us (i.e. the XSF)
-
flow
not sure how the XSF's standing with the IRS is ;)
-
Guus
I am not aware of any issues with the IRS.
-
Ge0rG
So that recent IETF thread make me think... are we able and willing to offer our help to the IETF to run a modern XMPP server for them?
-
jonas’
willing yes
-
jonas’
able: I’d be happy to support with that if it isn’t open-registration
-
pep.
Can somebody tldr the thread? "hey we're in 2020, we want features. Here have a Slack instance"?
-
Ge0rG
pep.: kinda sorta
-
Ge0rG
pep.: also XMPP prejudice based on experiences from 2005
-
jonas’
so I can’t in the next month, but I’d be happy to help supporting in the long term
-
jonas’
I have some experience in monitoring things
-
pep.
Do they have clients for the server we'd provide?
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: that's something that needs to be done right now, though
-
pep.
With features(tm)
-
Ge0rG
pep.: educating them about modern clients would be part of the task
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, I can’t do right now, I have literally no time for any additional tasks until the move is over
-
jonas’
the remaining buffer time is reserved for emergencies
-
jonas’
(and user requests like "add me to o.j.n")
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, but we can surely send out the offer and then find someone to do it
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: maybe my comment was not directed to you as much as a general call to action for the XSF / Board / iteam
-
pep.
Ge0rG: you mean the great web clients we have? :p
-
jonas’
maybe we can get Holger to provide them with a free account and C download?
-
jonas’
Holger + Daniel that is
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, or you could spin up a vhost on yax.im?
-
jonas’
as a demo server
-
Ge0rG
pep.: Converse, Conversations and Siskin should cover most users, right?
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: sure thing.
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: just that yax.im isn't exactly a highly available machine
-
jonas’
true again
-
jonas’
I could also add a vhost to the s.j.n host (where I can comfortably give others shell)
-
Ge0rG
and it's got a bus factor of 1
-
pep.
xmpp.org doesn't have any users btw? (unrelated)
-
Zash
apart from memberbot, no
-
pep.
maybe apart from memberbot
-
Zash
jinx!
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: don't get me wrong, I'd immediately set up whatever is required to host user accounts on my box, it's just not the perfect place to convince IETF people of the awesomeness of xmpp
-
Zash
IETF does have an ejabberd running, so it someone with ejabberd know-how might be able to help them hook that up some SSO with their document management thing
-
jonas’
I’ll also be happy to provide a monitored empty debian-buster box.
-
Ge0rG
jabber.ietf.org is just a MUC server
-
Ge0rG
Info> ietf.org is running ejabberd version 19.08 Oh.
-
Ge0rG
wow, the list is so long I can't scroll it
-
jonas’
https://search.jabber.network/search?q=%40jabber.ietf.org
-
Ge0rG
but 19.08 should be sane enough for all of their requirements, right?
-
jonas’
what are their requirements? ;)
-
jonas’
but probably yes
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: "modern IM"
-
jonas’
19.08 should do then I guess
-
Ge0rG
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/DHy4rk5qxBjIb4hOTRH0E3pFJqg/
-
Ge0rG
I suppose we'd need Holger to volunteer re ejabberd maintenance
-
jonas’
yes
-
Ge0rG
Error> No Contact Addresses for ietf.org
-
Ge0rG
Meh.
-
jonas’
and maybe also jcbrand to support a converse setup there
-
pep.
Are we volunteering Holger already
-
jonas’
pep., yeah of course, mdosch was volunteered to be member of editor@ just a few hours after his election ;)
-
jonas’
can’t wait that much longer with holger!
-
pep.
sgtm
-
Ge0rG
heh, one of the users in the IETF hallways is running on yax.im
-
Holger
Yes yes. I'll ask the XSF to double my member's salary and we're good to go.
-
jonas’
Holger, GRANTED! There you go.
-
MattJ
You know you need Board approval for that
-
MattJ
Come on
-
jonas’
oh sorry
-
jonas’
MattJ, can I? ;)
-
MattJ
You'll have to wait a few weeks
-
Ge0rG
MattJ: well, technically the only "salary" you get is the Summit Dinner, and you can bring another person, so...
-
MattJ
One week to approve the discussion, one week for people to be busy, another week to decide we need a work team to approve salaries
-
jonas’
I find your lack of faith disturbing
-
MattJ
Oh I have faith, it will be approved ;)
-
Zash
Before or after the next Board election?
-
MattJ
Yes
-
Ge0rG
BTW, https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/jabber/
-
Guus
> Yes yes. I'll ask the XSF to double my member's salary and we're good to go. You've been in almost a week now, right? 🙂
-
eta
fwiw I'd also be willing to help out for the IETF if spare hands are needed
-
Guus
I think this is more about being able to guarantee long-term support than to find volunteers that can do things right now.
-
pep.
Ge0rG, it'd be great to have them update that page yeah :/
-
Guus
also see: jabber.org
-
Ge0rG
looks like Glen is the server admin, see https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/dGQaXplloQp9J8CwKFhWWt2IDJY/
-
Guus
interesting that he lists ignite as the first server
-
Guus
at that time, I don't think it had registrations enabled.
-
Ge0rG
So we should: - contact Glen directly, maybe offering help to set up ietf.org as the xmpp user domain for the members? - send a PoC suggestion to the ML, offering to run a webchat fronted for them? - offer a PR to that page?
-
Guus
yes.
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, yes & yes & yes
-
Ge0rG
in what order?
-
jonas’
we should also get glen into operators@
-
Zash
By the power of "if you can get two others to agree with your proposal, go ahead!", .... go for it
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, go with Glen first
-
Ge0rG
CC to anybody?
-
jonas’
feel free to put any of the email addresses you have of me in CC and tell them that I’ll also be happy to help with trying to establish links to other operators and debugging remote issues
-
jonas’
since I have some experience with that as I run s.j.n
-
Ge0rG
and o.j.n.
-
jonas’
also point them at o.j.n because we by now ... exactly.✎ -
jonas’
also point them at o.j.n because we by now have a bunch of prober accounts where we do have contact info to trace down issues ✏
-
Ge0rG
anybody else wants to be in CC?
-
jonas’
point them at operators@ (both the ML and the chat) and invite them to also add me directly to their contacts if that helps
-
jonas’
(though in that case, I prefer the @zombofant.net JID)
-
jonas’
I can’t help with ejabberd admin unfortunately, but I’ll be happy to help with anything I can do around that.
-
Guus
Ge0rG if needed, I'd be happy to help with Openfire-specific issues that they might have (I read that they push that impl) - I'd actually love to get their feedback on that. I'll be less involved with the more generic solution though
-
Ge0rG
jcbrand: do you happen to be awake and available?
-
Zash
I can probably (try to) help with Prosody connectivity issues, if there's a need for one dev per server impl 🙂
-
jonas’
it certainly doesn’t hurt
-
jonas’
pity that stpeter isn’t around
-
Ge0rG
Yup.
-
MattJ
stpeter has previously tried to encourage them to improve things here, not sure who he was talking to
-
jonas’
FWIW, I’ll also be happy to provider longer-term support for this issue, I can’t do the short-term stuff right now though.
-
jonas’
(cc @ Guus ^)
-
Ge0rG
> anybody else wants to be in CC?
-
jonas’
(and maybe don’t mention that in the email, Ge0rG :))
-
pep.
Ge0rG, does it have to be a private email? Can it happen on operators@?
-
Ge0rG
pep.: it might be impolite to invite somebody to an ML by crossposting there
-
pep.
Ah
-
Guus
also, this is an offer specific to IETF - not something suitable for the more generic operators mailinglist.
-
pep.
Guus, sure, that doesn't prevent us from doing that in public
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, for the PoC suggestion: I unfortunately 100% lack experience with running converse.js, so I can’t really support there.
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: https://op-co.de/tmp/glen-xmpp-mail.txt
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, expand the first reference to XSF
-
Ge0rG
> > anybody else wants to be in CC?
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, link to https://xmpp.org/chat#converse/room?jid=operators@muc.xmpp.org for the operators@ room
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: added
-
Holger
Ge0rG: Feel free to add me.
-
Ge0rG
Holger: also as a cosignatory?
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, I’d like to re-read this with the fixes, can you let me know when you updated it?
-
Holger
Ge0rG: Sure (as you see fit).
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: updated
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, maybe add affiliations to the signatures? e.g. Georg Lukas (yax.im admin, JabberSPAM founder) Jonas Schäfer (observe.jabber.network and search.jabber.network operator) Holger Weiß (conversations.im operator)
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: thought about that
-
Ge0rG
Holger is also an ejabberd developer, can't leave that out
-
jonas’
oh, very true
-
jonas’
I thought about how to slip an ejabberd affiliation in there, but I didn’t come up with the obvious
-
pep.
ETOOMANYTITLES :x
-
Ge0rG
another update
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, if we want to further polish this, s/webchat/anonymous webchat/
-
Ge0rG
nah
-
jonas’
s/better service monitoring/additional service monitoring/
-
jonas’
since we don’t know what they currently have
-
Ge0rG
roger
-
jonas’
and claiming that o.j.n will be "better" is presumptuous or however you type thath word✎ -
jonas’
and claiming that o.j.n will be "better" is presumptuous or however you type that word ✏
-
Ge0rG
Holger: any feedback from you?
-
Guus
Don't overpolish things - this is great.
-
Ge0rG
mail sent
-
Holger
Yes, looked good to me.
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, thank you very much for typing the words
-
jonas’
someone explain to me why fairemail includes the trailing / in the linkification of o.j.n, but not for s.j.n
-
Holger
They should add an option for whether or not to include trailing /.
-
Ge0rG
Okay, now does it make sense to respond to https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/DHy4rk5qxBjIb4hOTRH0E3pFJqg/ ?
-
jonas’
yes
-
pep.
I think I would have responded there in the first place rather
-
Ge0rG
pep.: but you haven't
-
pep.
I haven't :)
-
jonas’
First, rebut the individual non-facts. Second, hint that we contacted Glen off-list to offer support.
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: I don't want to go to their place and start a fight about perceived realities
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, then skip the reply for now and see what Glen says
-
Ge0rG
are there any of the suggested steps that we could do right now, proactively?
-
Ge0rG
like... rm -rf pidgin from the internet
-
jonas’
publish a "Pidgin considered harmful" blogpost? ;D
-
Ge0rG
also why is adium listed on https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html
-
jonas’
because neutrality?
-
Zash
Is it maintained? Who renewed it?
-
Ge0rG
Zash: Robbie <robertvehse@fastmail.fm> did
-
mdosch
No Dino or profanity there. This em thing doesn't look like an xmpp client.✎ -
mdosch
No Dino, poezio or profanity there. This em thing doesn't look like an xmpp client. ✏
-
pep.
Nor Conversations
-
jonas’
what
-
jonas’
the latter is really a problem
-
Zash
Looks like all those were renewed last 14 months ago
-
Ge0rG
I'd really like the maintainers to do that job
-
Zash
Maintainers of popular modern clients are likely busy with maintainging/developing the client
-
Ge0rG
Otherwise the periodic update to get rid of unmaintained clients is pointless
-
Zash
And unmaintained clients have gathered a bazillion fans over the years, who will never let them get kicked off the list
-
pep.
Here, poezio and slix PR
-
pep.
I personally think that list is harmful, but :x
-
Zash
Anyone wanna build a Better List?
-
pep.
https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/775 somebody plz(?)
-
moparisthebest
iirc the thought behind the auto-expiry is that unmantained clients would fall off and that only good active ones would be left, but it looks like the opposite happened
-
moparisthebest
unintended consequences are the best kind
-
pep.
I don't mind PR for the other 3 clients that were mentioned
-
pep.
4. Seems like Movim isn't in there either
-
moparisthebest
still unclear, I thought the rule was only the developer could PR their client in
-
pep.
Nor SàT..
-
Zash
Hmmmmm/ https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/588
-
pep.
moparisthebest, happy to wait for an ACK
-
Ge0rG
Zash: yeah.
-
moparisthebest
ah ok, glad I'm not the only one unclear on it
-
pep.
Nobody is clear with that.. :/
-
moparisthebest
that looks like some nice board AOB for you there pep. :)
-
pep.
It was already discussed at some point, and iirc the result was "case-by-case" or sth..
-
pep.
don't remember exactly
-
Zash
https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2019-07-25?p=h#2019-07-25-ea7cec0e0a9fc4ca
-
moparisthebest
without criteria that doesn't seem helpful
-
Ge0rG
people should just read https://xmpp.org/2017/03/new-xmpp-software-listing-rules/ ;)
-
Zash
Could someone not on a corporate workstation add that link to that PR?
-
pep.
To what PR
-
Zash
Link to https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2019-07-25?p=h#2019-07-25-ea7cec0e0a9fc4ca in https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/588
-
pep.
Ah, that was the PR that was problematic, right
-
Ge0rG
but that PR got merged already
-
Zash
For future reference etc
-
pep.
Seems like everybody renewed their clients on 07-16..
-
pep.
Probably a batch operation already
-
Zash
That PR?
-
pep.
Ahh
-
Ge0rG
all that makes me sad
-
Zash
Or batch merge?
-
pep.
Zash, probably that PR yeah
-
pep.
https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/776 Daniel https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/777 edhelas https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/778 larma
-
Daniel
pep.: can I ack in here?
-
pep.
Sure
-
Daniel
Acj✎ -
pep.
It's just for whoever is going to merge
-
Daniel
Ack ✏
-
jonas’
I merged all of them
-
jonas’
they are active projects, I happen to know that
-
pep.
:P
-
pep.
Seems like the poezio one is still up there :(
-
pep.
I know it's not that active..
-
jonas’
active enough
-
edhelas
\o/
-
edhelas
Happy to know that Movim is active
-
pep.
There's also a PR for openfire
-
jonas’
where?
-
jonas’
(I only see a merged one ;))
-
pep.
:)
-
pep.
And still no https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/775 ?
-
jonas’
done
-
pep.
Thanks
-
jonas’
done
-
jonas’
(profanity)
-
jonas’
I recently learnt that I have +w on that repo again
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: but you knowing about active projects is highly subjective!
-
Ge0rG
also I'd like to see compliance badges in there, even if the minimal non-designed ones
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, "PRs welcome"
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: ah, that interesting tooling.
-
wurstsalat
Ge0rG, +1 for Compliance Badges (even basic non-designed ones)
-
Ge0rG
wurstsalat: PRs welcome! :DDD
-
pep.
DOAP?
-
pep.
(I'm away before somebody says PR welcome)
-
wurstsalat
and yes, DOAP > Compliance extaction
-
wurstsalat
maybe unmaintained clients won’t ever get a DOAP file? :)
-
pep.
So we accept every project that comes our way (is this really neutral?), but we're very eager not to accept some of them :)
-
jonas’
pep., PRs welcome!
-
pep.
Ah fail, I was still here!
-
jonas’
wurstsalat, interesting idea
-
jonas’
pep., moohahahaha
-
eta
doap?
-
Ge0rG
I think it would be good to have one or two badges per implementation in that list
-
wurstsalat
eta, Description of a Project (an xml file)
-
Ge0rG
eta: example at https://yaxim.org/doap/yaxim.rdf.xml
-
pep.
eta, https://lab.louiz.org/poezio/poezio/-/blob/master/data/doap.xml
-
eta
ah
-
pep.
It's not used anywhere yet though
-
pep.
Just linked from json files in the xmpp.org repo
-
jonas’
problem with project-hosted DOAP is that the website build would then depend on the availability of that XML file
-
pep.
Until someday somebody does something
-
jonas’
which is not cool
-
jonas’
and gets less cooler with every additional project doing that
-
pep.
jonas’, yeah we might have to cache slightly :/
-
jonas’
which requires extra infrastructure
-
edhelas
got also mine there https://github.com/movim/movim/blob/master/doap.xml
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: would a subdirectory full of doap files inside the data/ directory be better?
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, no, because then projects would have two places where they need to keep their DOAP up-to-date
-
Ge0rG
for active clients it might be a significant Editor burden to keep up with the PRs
-
pep.
btw Link Mauve, https://linkmauve.fr/ns/xmpp-doap, is this supposed to parse error
-
jonas’
which is about as bad as the current listing situation
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, Editor is not responsible for xmpp.org
-
jonas’
Commteam is
-
jonas’
:>
-
Ge0rG
So what would be a serious, usable, approach to keep badges on the implementation list?
-
Daniel
Automate with doap is the only thing that will scale imho
-
jcbrand
Ge0rG, jonas’ hello, I'm now here and awake
-
Ge0rG
jcbrand: we sold you to the IETF to set up a smooth-running converse.js instance so that they don't need to use slack.
-
jcbrand
From my reading, you want to help the IETF by hosting a server and webchat (and maybe other things) for them?
-
Ge0rG
jcbrand: I sent https://op-co.de/tmp/glen-xmpp-mail.txt to the IETF xmpp admin. Let's see what happens next
-
jcbrand
Sounds like it's for a good cause
-
Ge0rG
That thread on ietf@ is alread three days old, so we probably should also chime in in a friendly way there and give them a taste of modern XMPP.
-
jonas’
jcbrand, good morning!
-
Ge0rG
I don't know if we can give them Conversations gift codes or something ;)
-
jcbrand
FWIW, I'd be happy to help out and set something up for them.
- eta whispers "use pix-art"
-
Ge0rG
jcbrand: thanks very much, I'll keep that in mind
-
Ge0rG
is the converse instance on xmpp.org up-to-date?
-
jcbrand
Probably not, but I never touched it. If someone gives me access, I can try to help there as well. I intend to release Converse 7 soonish (before the end of the month) and can then update it in various places. Having access to deployments like that can also help me test for specific use-cases so that I know something's not broken.
-
jcbrand
(before releasing)
-
Ge0rG
jcbrand: I have a 5.0.3 instance with a slightly cumbersome path setup running on https://yaxim.org/chat/ where I'd be glad to have a hand
-
Ge0rG
I know I had issues with it, as I want it to work for both mobile and desktop, and I wrote about it in https://github.com/conversejs/converse.js/issues/1057
-
jonas’
jcbrand, end of month is in less than 24 hours ... are you sure? :)
-
jcbrand
jonas’ ahem... end of September
-
jcbrand
Ge0rG Yeah, I remember your tickets about mobile issues. I can try to help with updating it to Converse 7, and capturing tickets for issues. I can't promise fixing mobile issues timeously though.
-
Ge0rG
I don't rememeber anymore what I did (and if at all) to make 5.0.3 work.
-
Ge0rG
Though I must admit, the adium renewal is a good example of the "maintainer must do an update to ensure up-to-date implementation" going wrong.
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, that CC escalated *quickly*
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: oh yes indeed
-
jonas’
but nice and extensive response
-
pep.
Are you going to keep the suspense longer? :P
-
Ge0rG
pep.: nobody is going to paste from private conversations.
-
Zash
TL;DReceive?
-
pep.
What is this doing here then
-
moparisthebest
You could use snikket instead, for the invite stuff
-
Ge0rG
TL;DR: we were thanked for our offer but Glen is not the right person, so the mail was forwarded to multiple IETF representatives
-
jonas’
TL;DR: not quite the correct person to address, but he CC’d a bunch of other people who are the correct addressees and may have opinions on matters
-
Ge0rG
heh
-
jonas’
good that we read the same email :D
-
Ge0rG
Meh. https://github.com/ietf/www.ietf.org
-
jonas’
:/
-
Ge0rG
I thought about submitting a PR to exterminate pidgin
-
Ge0rG
and Adium is... well.. as questionable
-
pep.
Especially with the existence of alternatives
-
Ge0rG
which alternatives are there?
-
pep.
BeagleIM iirc
-
pep.
And monal maybe?
-
mdosch
> Previously issue tracking for new www.ietf.org IETF website. Please send issues to webmaster@ietf.org So email instead of PR :)
-
Ge0rG
mdosch: that doesn't scale well
-
pep.
Send a patch to that email address*
-
pep.
Ah wait there's no code
-
Ge0rG
a patch for the HTML?
-
Zash
Convert the HTML to Markdown and send a patch for that.
- Ge0rG converts Zash to markdown
-
Zash
Submit an Internet-Draft
-
moparisthebest
yea why don't web browsers have integrated markdown processors yet
-
Zash
Why don
-
moparisthebest
I'm sorry for suggesting that already
-
pep.
They have a subset of markdown
-
Zash
Why don't the at least show the plain text?
- wurstsalat adds XEP-0441 to DOAP file, but https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0441.html still 404s
-
jonas’
wurstsalat, oh sorry
-
jonas’
wurstsalat, there I fixed it
-
wurstsalat
Thank you jonas’ :)
-
Ge0rG
We should have called it MAMa, because of how well it cares for our messages
-
lovetox
:D