XSF Discussion - 2020-09-02


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  256. Guus When filtering a MAM archive by time, what is the desired/expected behavior if the specified time is some instant in the future?
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  259. Guus Returning an error might cause issues with systems that have drifting clocks. Returning a result might cause the client to think that all messages up to that point in time have been synced.
  260. jonas’ do the latter and tell clients not to do that
  261. jonas’ for sync, IDs are the only safe way
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  263. jonas’ for ephemeral display, times are OK
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  265. Guus Educating users. What could possibly go wrong...
  266. jonas’ s/users/developers/!
  267. Guus Openfire currently delays the response until that time has reached. Works for drifts, I think, but we had an ever running request just now...
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  279. jonas’ that sounds like an excellent way to DoS openfire
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  284. Guus There are easier ways.
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  300. Holger Heh, creative solution! 🙂
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  306. flow shouldn't mam queries with an 'end' value that is potentially affected by time drift simply not contain an 'end' value?
  307. flow or is their intention something else than "give me all messages (starting from X) up to now"?
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  309. Guus I don't know. From what I notice in the logs, at least someone is putting in an 'end' value for reasons beyond me 🙂
  310. Ge0rG The only excuse to use timestamps in MAM is when the client wasn't active for an eternity, and you only want "the last 14 days of history"
  311. jonas’ Ge0rG, but then not for "end"
  312. Ge0rG jonas’: yes
  313. Ge0rG But then again, there is no way to ensure there is a no-overlap no-holes connection setup.
  314. Ge0rG So developers might be inclined to use timestamps to reduce the overlap or hole
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  316. Kev I think that's outright wrong. There are a number of good reasons to search an archive using timestamps.
  317. jonas’ (that’s what I meant by "ephemeral display" fwiw)
  318. Kev And I can even see why a naive implementation might end up requesting dates in the future
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  320. Kev Let's say you've got a renderer that shows a day's history at a time, you might end up requesting 'the end of today' instead of adding logic to check if it's today and removing the end from it.
  321. jonas’ hence my suggestion to simply truncate at $now and return immediately
  322. Kev Indeed, that seems to be correct behaviour to me.
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  325. jonas’ you could also return an IQ type='error' <error type='continue'/> if you’re fancy and want to break everyone
  326. jonas’ you could also return an IQ type='error' <error type='continue'/> if you’re fancy and want to break everything
  327. Zash We need to use error type=continue for something!
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  346. flow Would it be sensible to add a note to xep313 to not use 'end' == now, but instead omit 'end', to avoid issues with holes where end < now?
  347. jonas’ if you want to avoid holes, don’t use timestamps
  348. lovetox flow does the xep not mention what a missing end attribute does already?
  349. flow lovetox, probably, but that appearantly does not prevent developers from setting end=now. Not that I believe a note would change much, but at least it is documented
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  351. flow I think I personally would favor erroring queries with a timestamp in the future, so that developers are forced to re-think their design. But I know that my "fail hard and fast (per default)" - whatever that actually means is subjective - is not undisputed
  352. flow I think I personally would favor erroring queries with a timestamp in the future, so that developers are forced to re-think their design. But I know that my "fail hard and fast (per default)" ideology - whatever that actually means is subjective - is not undisputed
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  355. Zash Pretty sure Prosody just turns it into a query equivalent to `WHERE "when" BETWEEN ($start AND $end)`
  356. flow Kev gave a nice example why erroring on such queries may be not a good idea, but I think I would favor that tiny little bit of extra client logic, over the (granted, probably small) possiblity that clients end up with holes
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  359. Zash What if you cheat and set the 'complete' flag to false?
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  370. lovetox thats a bad idea
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  373. lovetox that would trigger another query
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  375. lovetox so endless loop
  376. lovetox we had that with biboumi a year ago
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  419. flow how do I suggest items for the xmpp newsletter? writing here? if so → https://www.netways.de/blog/2020/08/28/zurueck-in-die-zukunft-icinga2-benachrichtigungen-mit-xmpp/
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  421. moparisthebest I think you ping emus ^
  422. pep. You can PR against https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/756
  423. emus flow: yes, what pep. says. If you write a short text for it, what would be really helpful, it is just fine to comment there or in the CommTeam MUC as well.
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  443. jonas’ dwd, next doors
  444. jonas’ dwd, next door?
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