XSF Discussion - 2020-09-17

  1. sonny has left
  2. alameyo has left
  3. alameyo has joined
  4. sonny has joined
  5. Vaulor has left
  6. sonny has left
  7. neshtaxmpp has joined
  8. werdan has left
  9. neshtaxmpp has left
  10. Neustradamus has joined
  11. Neustradamus has left
  12. stpeter has joined
  13. stpeter has left
  14. Neustradamus has joined
  15. Shell has joined
  16. alameyo has left
  17. alameyo has joined
  18. adityaborikar has joined
  19. sonny has joined
  20. krauq has left
  21. krauq has joined
  22. krauq has left
  23. krauq has joined
  24. krauq has left
  25. krauq has joined
  26. papatutuwawa has left
  27. sonny has left
  28. sonny has joined
  29. adityaborikar has left
  30. adityaborikar has joined
  31. LNJ has left
  32. stpeter has joined
  33. stpeter has left
  34. mukt2 has joined
  35. neshtaxmpp has joined
  36. mukt2 has left
  37. mukt2 has joined
  38. sonny has left
  39. sonny has joined
  40. mukt2 has left
  41. mukt2 has joined
  42. mukt2 has left
  43. mukt2 has joined
  44. mukt2 has left
  45. mukt2 has joined
  46. mukt2 has left
  47. mukt2 has joined
  48. Seve has joined
  49. sonny has left
  50. sonny has joined
  51. sonny has left
  52. Mikaela has left
  53. sonny has joined
  54. alameyo has left
  55. alameyo has joined
  56. mukt2 has left
  57. mukt2 has joined
  58. lorddavidiii has joined
  59. Tobias has joined
  60. Mikaela has joined
  61. sonny has left
  62. sonny has joined
  63. lovetox has joined
  64. Vaulor has joined
  65. dwd has joined
  66. krauq has left
  67. krauq has joined
  68. paul has joined
  69. winfried has left
  70. winfried has joined
  71. stpeter has joined
  72. stpeter has left
  73. j.r has left
  74. DebXWoody has joined
  75. dwd has left
  76. dwd has joined
  77. emus has joined
  78. APach has joined
  79. j.r has joined
  80. sonny has left
  81. sonny has joined
  82. sonny has left
  83. krauq has left
  84. krauq has joined
  85. lorddavidiii has left
  86. mukt2 has left
  87. lorddavidiii has joined
  88. lorddavidiii has left
  89. neshtaxmpp has left
  90. karoshi has joined
  91. j.r has left
  92. lovetox has left
  93. floretta has left
  94. mukt2 has joined
  95. j.r has joined
  96. j.r has left
  97. j.r has joined
  98. goffi has joined
  99. mukt2 has left
  100. flow pep., if you replace it, then the old/previous feature is also gone, right?
  101. mukt2 has joined
  102. pep. yes
  103. flow so i'd just remove all traces of "max" and add a new feature for your proposed "-1"
  104. flow related: I do wonder if there should be room for a union type form field, e.g. this field's value is either a int or one of "foo", "bar" or "baz".
  105. flow related: I do wonder if there should be room for a union type form field type, e.g. this field's value is either a int or one of "foo", "bar" or "baz".
  106. flow as I also don't like overloading integer values with extra semantics (think "error codes"), but I can see that the way of least resistance may be the way forward in this case
  107. debacle has joined
  108. Nekit has left
  109. krauq has left
  110. Guus has left
  111. Guus has joined
  112. Nekit has joined
  113. krauq has joined
  114. mukt2 has left
  115. Daniel > as I also don't like overloading integer values with extra semantics (think "error codes"), but I can see that the way of least resistance may be the way forward in this case I'm really not a fan of this either. That's why my original proposal didn't. But it seems like the community has spoken
  116. pep. yeah I'm also not a fan, but..
  117. lorddavidiii has joined
  118. j.r has left
  119. j.r has joined
  120. mukt2 has joined
  121. MattJ To be clear 'max' is not a blocker for me
  122. flow > But it seems like the community has spoken I am not sure if I'd put it that way. Clearly there are two different camps in how this should be done. What we should do now is to see if we can find a compromise
  123. flow MattJ, ahh ok, I assumed that pep made the propsoal because this was blocking adoption by prosody
  124. MattJ We have had this discussion already in the past year, and I think the conclusion was that we need some new type like 'integer-with-max'
  125. flow more like "integer-with-list-of-predifined-strings", but yes
  126. flow more like "integer-with-list-of-predefined-strings", but yes
  127. thorsten has left
  128. MattJ Predefined where?
  129. thorsten has joined
  130. stpeter has joined
  131. stpeter has left
  132. MattJ The point is that we need to validate it, so the list of possible strings needs to be known
  133. flow hence predefined
  134. MattJ So what strings are you thinking?
  135. david has left
  136. david has joined
  137. sonny has joined
  138. flow depends on the use case
  139. flow the xep where the form field is specified in also declares those
  140. jcbrand has joined
  141. MattJ No thanks
  142. debacle has left
  143. Zash How about 'min' and 'max' as aliases for the xep122(?) min and max limits?
  144. MattJ I mean, again not a blocker, but annoying
  145. eevvoor has joined
  146. MattJ Yes, min and max makes sense
  147. mukt2 has left
  148. Maranda has left
  149. MattJ What I would rather not have is an open-ended data type where the possible legal values are dependent on context
  150. Kev Zash: I think max is distinct from the integer limit though, no?
  151. Kev In that it's asking the server to be essentially unlimited, as much as is allowed.
  152. Kev (I don't particularly have a horse in this race, I think pretty much anything is workable here)
  153. MattJ The max integer limit is "as much as is allowed"
  154. MattJ But what I'm guessing you're saying is that it may change
  155. Holger MattJ: It wouldn't really depend on _context_, in that this field variable would always have this data type, no? (We do have XEPs where valid types do depend on context, I do hate _that_ ...)
  156. MattJ Holger: what I took the proposal to be is a data type that is essentially an integer or string
  157. MattJ Where the strings are chosen by the XEP it is used in
  158. MattJ Which is almost useless for validation
  159. pep. > MattJ, ahh ok, I assumed that pep made the propsoal because this was blocking adoption by prosody I kinda did?
  160. Maranda has joined
  161. pep. if it's not blocking then.. great? :)
  162. Holger MattJ: We have various form fields and whatnot where an XEP defines a limited set of valid strings already, no? (I.e. enumerations ...)
  163. Holger Whatever, in this specific case it's really about integer|'unlimited', not integer|string, right ...
  164. Zash And those would use list options
  165. MattJ I'll restate the problem: we offload dataform parsing and validation to a library, it currently takes care of ensuring max_items is an integer, and so on. The proposed "max" change means we have to stop declaring this field as an integer and move all validation back into code that uses the library
  166. Holger MattJ: Or fix the library ;-)
  167. MattJ Obviously that can be done, but using this "max" hack has come up in other contexts since
  168. MattJ Holger: fix it to do what?
  169. Holger (I have a similar problem but I do see how union types are useful to support.)
  170. MattJ "max" is not valid for xs:integer
  171. Holger To support validation of complex types.
  172. Ge0rG if somebody had told Council back then, we'd probably have approved -1 instead of "max" or "∞"
  173. mukt2 has joined
  174. Holger I just wouldn't have seen declaring the type to be "integer|'unlimited'" (or in other cases "integer|enum('one', 'two', 'three')") as a hack. Quite the opposite, I'd see limiting us to simple types as a hack to work around implementation problems.
  175. pep. Not everything goes into integers indeed. and having "max" is certainly more explicit than "-1" for clients or server devs
  176. lorddavidiii has left
  177. MattJ Holger: it's based on XEP-0122 so that validation constraints can be communicated to clients
  178. Holger Ah!
  179. MattJ So all I'm asking is that we use a proper defined type instead
  180. pep. So it's a spec limiting an implementation limiting another spec!
  181. flow we surely could extend xep122 to support those kind union form field type
  182. Holger pep.: Exactly.
  183. flow we surely could extend xep122 to support those kinds of union form field types
  184. lovetox has joined
  185. MattJ I'd be totally happy to get behind that - and I see it being useful in other contexts too
  186. dwd has left
  187. dwd has joined
  188. pep. That does mean a lot more work..
  189. MattJ I'm also happy with xmpp:integer-with-max :)
  190. MattJ Whatever makes most sense to people
  191. pep. UsefulPubSubThings when? (hint: never!!)
  192. thorsten has left
  193. thorsten has joined
  194. emus has left
  195. pep. A well thought design is appealing, but the path leading to that is full of ambushes :p
  196. pep. Long and perilous
  197. Zash So we should just pile on hacks?
  198. MattJ pep.: yes, I know spec work is draining in this way :(
  199. thorsten has left
  200. thorsten has joined
  201. pep. Zash: isn't that what happens in practice most of the time
  202. debacle has joined
  203. Zash Giving up and adding more hacks isn't going to help with that
  204. pep. I agree, but that needs work and dedication. I'm curious how projects like Movim and Sàt ever managed to make something useful out of pubsub without this tbh, or what I point out in https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-October/036503.html
  205. MattJ Me too
  206. antranigv has left
  207. lorddavidiii has joined
  208. antranigv has joined
  209. mukt2 has left
  210. emus has joined
  211. eevvoor has left
  212. antranigv has left
  213. antranigv has joined
  214. lorddavidiii has left
  215. lskdjf has joined
  216. antranigv has left
  217. Steve Kille has left
  218. antranigv has joined
  219. Steve Kille has joined
  220. antranigv has left
  221. antranigv has joined
  222. antranigv has left
  223. antranigv has joined
  224. mukt2 has joined
  225. lorddavidiii has joined
  226. antranigv has left
  227. antranigv has joined
  228. Dele Olajide has joined
  229. antranigv has left
  230. mukt2 has left
  231. alameyo has left
  232. alameyo has joined
  233. mukt2 has joined
  234. arc has left
  235. arc has joined
  236. karoshi has left
  237. karoshi has joined
  238. karoshi has left
  239. stpeter has joined
  240. stpeter has left
  241. intosi has left
  242. lovetox has left
  243. intosi has joined
  244. neshtaxmpp has joined
  245. intosi has left
  246. intosi has joined
  247. antranigv has joined
  248. krauq has left
  249. krauq has joined
  250. eevvoor has joined
  251. pep. I may not be entirely available for the board meeting. I'll be in transports in between things (missing a word.)
  252. Ge0rG I have two AOBs for Board.
  253. Ge0rG Or rather, Council has.
  254. eta pep., MattJ: I think movim just gets you to force max-items to something high
  255. eta in server config, that is
  256. MattJ We're also lacking a config option to ask the server to return an error when reaching the limit, rather than discarding older items
  257. pep. eta, yeah and that fails whenever an operator is not aware one of their users is using movim
  258. pep. And what MattJ says
  259. pep. (which I mentioned in my email last year)
  260. eta ah.
  261. papatutuwawa has joined
  262. pep. Even though for the issue I mentioned just now, that's possibly another issue that goes alongside using servers that correspond to your use-case
  263. pep. (how to find them is something I want to tackle but -ENOTIME)
  264. pep. Busy adding custom types in XEPs
  265. pep. MattJ, something something registry not working.
  266. MattJ Yeah, that minor issue :)
  267. pep. So I "can't" submit my change just now.
  268. arc has left
  269. arc has joined
  270. mukt2 has left
  271. pep. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0137.html#example-1 oops, unqualified NS "si-profile"?
  272. pep. How do I define a datatype in a registrar definition? :/
  273. pep. I mean not just saying it exists
  274. pep. Taking example on https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0137.xml#registrar.xdata-validate, that includes a definition from the XEP itself, is that enough?
  275. pep. In https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0137.xml#usecase.xdata
  276. neshtaxmpp has left
  277. MattJ Yeah, I guess the new type needs a XEP?
  278. pep. I'm not entirely sure this is the correct thing to do though, MattJ. You can apply a range to xs:integer for sure but how to you apply a range to <xs:simpleType><xs:union><xs:simpleType><xs:restriction base='nonNegativeInteger'/></xs:simpleType><xs:simpleType><xs:restriction base='string'><enumeration value='max'/></xs:restriction></xs:simpleType></xs:union></xs:simpletype>
  279. pep. What I had in mind at the beginning was to allow servers to send over their own type definition :x
  280. krauq has left
  281. pep. But that's madness
  282. krauq has joined
  283. Ge0rG kinda like EXI?
  284. MattJ Agreed, madness :)
  285. pep. But then how do I solve the <range/> thing.
  286. pep. It's also not like it could be applied to a variant of our custom union type because there's no variant
  287. pep. And I can't define another derived integer type with custom range because every deployment is different :)
  288. pep. In this new XEP/modification to existing XEP I might be able to say "any <range/> thing applies to this integer value" but that's meh
  289. MattJ It's meh but I'm not sure I see another solution
  290. pep. Fortunately 122 says there can only be one <range/> within <validate/> (in the non-normative schema)
  291. mukt2 has joined
  292. pep. another solution would be to go to the w3c with a revolutionary union type with variants! (not me plz)
  293. neshtaxmpp has joined
  294. lovetox has joined
  295. j.r has left
  296. j.r has joined
  297. lorddavidiii has left
  298. j.r has left
  299. lorddavidiii has joined
  300. neshtaxmpp has left
  301. adityaborikar has left
  302. adityaborikar has joined
  303. mukt2 has left
  304. mukt2 has joined
  305. eevvoor has left
  306. antranigv has left
  307. eta has left
  308. eta has joined
  309. neshtaxmpp has joined
  310. antranigv has joined
  311. stpeter has joined
  312. stpeter has left
  313. antranigv has left
  314. antranigv has joined
  315. antranigv has left
  316. lskdjf has left
  317. lskdjf has joined
  318. lorddavidiii has left
  319. antranigv has joined
  320. krauq has left
  321. krauq has joined
  322. mukt2 has left
  323. mukt2 has joined
  324. mukt2 has left
  325. mukt2 has joined
  326. adityaborikar has left
  327. adityaborikar has joined
  328. j.r has joined
  329. Dele Olajide has left
  330. lorddavidiii has joined
  331. adityaborikar has left
  332. adityaborikar has joined
  333. eevvoor has joined
  334. moparisthebest has left
  335. moparisthebest has joined
  336. mukt2 has left
  337. APach has left
  338. APach has joined
  339. Dele Olajide has joined
  340. LNJ has joined
  341. floretta has joined
  342. krauq has left
  343. krauq has joined
  344. stpeter has joined
  345. stpeter has left
  346. mukt2 has joined
  347. lorddavidiii has left
  348. lovetox has left
  349. lovetox has joined
  350. mukt2 has left
  351. lorddavidiii has joined
  352. Mikaela has left
  353. Mikaela has joined
  354. arc has left
  355. arc has joined
  356. arc has left
  357. arc has joined
  358. serge90 has left
  359. serge90 has joined
  360. antranigv has left
  361. mukt2 has joined
  362. antranigv has joined
  363. adityaborikar has left
  364. adityaborikar has joined
  365. eevvoor has left
  366. eevvoor has joined
  367. ralphm bangs gavel
  368. ralphm 0. Welcome + Agenda
  369. pep. half-here
  370. ralphm Hi
  371. Seve 👋
  372. Seve MattJ Guus
  373. Guus hi
  374. Guus sorry
  375. MattJ Oh, forgot it was Thursday
  376. MattJ o/
  377. eevvoor has left
  378. ralphm welcome all
  379. ralphm I've added an item from last meeting from Ge0rG
  380. ralphm And although my name wasn't mentioned thrice, it appeared that dwd had a suggestion for a topic from the Council meeting, too
  381. emus has left
  382. ralphm Hope either of them is around.
  383. Guus I'd really like to receive agendas prior to the meeting, so that we can prepare. We've agreed on that, didn't we?
  384. Ge0rG ralphm: the Council asked to create a web page linking to the latest / emphasizing the latest and linking to all Compliance Suite(s)
  385. ralphm We did indeed. My apologies
  386. Ge0rG ralphm: and the second question from dwd was "what about the badges"
  387. Ge0rG (I'm paraphrasing here)
  388. ralphm ok
  389. dwd For board to consider: the discussion on the compliance suites.
  390. ralphm 1. Minute taker
  391. ralphm I'll write up minutes later.
  392. ralphm 2. IETF's use of Jabber
  393. ralphm This was an AOB item by Ge0rG last meeting.
  394. ralphm Ge0rG, what is this about?
  395. Ge0rG there was a thread on the IETF (users?) ML about how they are trying Slack as an IM alternative
  396. Ge0rG and in that thread, there were some opinions about XMPP that are based on ~15 years old facts
  397. Ge0rG so I wrote a nice mail to their xmpp admin, offering help with improving their xmpp infrastructure as well as their recommended clients
  398. ralphm Ah, I haven't seen that.
  399. Ge0rG the xmpp admin forwarded it to the IETF Executive Director
  400. ralphm Thanks for picking that up. Any response, yet?
  401. Ge0rG yes, we've had some communication, and the next step would be to set up a converse.js instance, help them a bit with ejabberd config and provide better client recommendations
  402. Ge0rG The ones on https://www.ietf.org/jabber/ are also ~15 years old
  403. antranigv has left
  404. Ge0rG Do we have something solid we can recommend for the major platforms?
  405. eevvoor has joined
  406. Ge0rG They also asked if we can offer commercial-grade service / hosting for them, but I declined
  407. Ge0rG we can hardly offer commercial-grade hosting for our own needs.
  408. ralphm You can, 'we' can't.
  409. flow but I think we have people who do offer commercial-grade hosting?
  410. MattJ The XSF obviously doesn't offer hosting, but I'm sure there are people who would be happy to provide such an offering
  411. Ge0rG ralphm: the original mail was signed by me and two other XSF members
  412. ralphm I.e. we, the XSF, vs you, people in the community.
  413. Ge0rG flow: those people need to stand up and volunteer then.
  414. flow wait volunteer?
  415. flow I assumed we where talking about commercial paid services
  416. Ge0rG flow: no
  417. flow ahh so commercial-grade without the commercial
  418. Ge0rG None of the people who contributed to the initial mail volunteered any infrastructure yet.
  419. Ge0rG flow: commercial-grade as opposed to commercial
  420. MattJ I'm assuming they don't just want a random XMPP community member running this
  421. Guus Ge0rG I suppose we can call for volunteers on a mailinglist?
  422. Ge0rG but maybe that was just a misunderstanding between me and the IETF folks
  423. ralphm MattJ, right, that makes sense
  424. MattJ There are a number of commercial entities around XMPP who I'm sure would be happy to sponsor a commercial-grade deployment for the IETF
  425. ralphm Do IETF also provide XMPP accounts, or just the groupchat service?
  426. flow wasn't the initial jabber setup of the ietf done by some random xmpp community member?
  427. Guus exactly my thought Matt
  428. ralphm I seem to remember we did the latter long, long, long time ago.
  429. Guus this all is exciting, and I applaud the people involved to have picked this up - but how is this a board issue?
  430. Ge0rG ralphm: they are only hosting the MUC server and intend to keep doing so.
  431. Ge0rG ralphm: aka. they don't want to host user accounts themselves
  432. Ge0rG but they'd probably be grateful to have a recommended server with IBR and good stability
  433. Ge0rG or a small list of recommended servers
  434. ralphm Guus: the question might be, besides running muc.xmpp.org, do you also want to run muc.ietf.org, as an XSF effort. This would surely need to pass board.
  435. flow Ahh, that MUC-only requirement may lower the bar to provide the service for free
  436. Ge0rG I'd offer mine, but it lacks both in stability and in bus factor
  437. Ge0rG ralphm: I don't think they want to change hosting for their MUC component.
  438. ralphm ok
  439. Ge0rG I'm pretty sure we can put up a Holger to review their configuration and to add / fine-tune the modules needed for MAM and all the other fancy stuff, though
  440. ralphm Sure
  441. Ge0rG Then we also need to make a list of recommended clients
  442. Ge0rG And then we need to set up a converse.js instance with a nice fancy web front listing all their MUCs
  443. pep. Ge0rG: 'we'? we can hardly get a client list up on our website :)
  444. ralphm I'm reluctant to provide a recommendation on behalf of the XSF.
  445. Ge0rG Any other volunteers?
  446. ralphm But I know there are people in this discussion with opinions, that'd be perfectly fine to be voiced.
  447. ralphm Outside of their capacity within the XSF.
  448. Ge0rG the last mail from the IETF came on Sept 8th, and I failed to respond so far.
  449. Ge0rG ralphm: I don't want to make it political, I want to help in pragmatic and useful ways
  450. ralphm Indeed.
  451. Guus I do not see an issue with individuals making recommendations, even if those individuals have XSF associations.
  452. ralphm I very much like us to help the IETF, don't get me wrong.
  453. Ge0rG ralphm: 'us'?
  454. ralphm Just that given the recent discussion, it cannot be an XSF recommendation.
  455. Ge0rG I'm perfectly fine with signing that recommendation with my name only.
  456. antranigv has joined
  457. Ge0rG But I still need help preparing it, see above.
  458. MattJ I'm happy to recommend some clients
  459. ralphm See :-D
  460. Ge0rG Also I'm going on vacation in some days and my capacity to prepare something will go from ~0 to ~-10
  461. Ge0rG MattJ: yes, ripping your client recommendation list came to my mind
  462. Guus 10 minutes left. Does this need furhter board action?
  463. MattJ The new one in Prosody? That's less of a recommendation list and more a list of clients that came to mind, but yeah
  464. Ge0rG MattJ: maybe in terms of a diff to https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/jabber/ ;)
  465. Ge0rG Guus: no, that was FYI
  466. ralphm Guus: I think can move the remainder of this discussion outside of the meeting.
  467. ralphm Thanks for noting this Ge0rG!
  468. Ge0rG unless the Board wants to get all political and provide actual help, of course
  469. ralphm 3. Compliancy Suites
  470. Ge0rG Council is preparing a new Compliance Suite for 2021, and thus Dave was so kind to make a public inquiry on standards@ about their usefulness.
  471. Ge0rG The feedback was mainly: - we need badges to make CS more useful - the XEP process is horrible, we need just a webpage
  472. Ge0rG But a new webpage would require New Council Process as well as New Webteam Process, I've decided to stick to the old process so far.
  473. Ge0rG I with my CS author hat, that is.
  474. Guus Why do we need processes to get a page added / modified on the website?
  475. Ge0rG Nevertheless, it would be Awesome:tm: to have Somebody Else:tm: create a page on our website that would be linked prominently and link to the current CS
  476. ralphm I've failed to get in contact with the person who initially offered to do the design of the badges. At this point, I'd have whoever volunteers just create *something*.
  477. Ge0rG Guus: up to now the Council has defined what belongs into CS. Of course we can delegate that to the Webteam
  478. ralphm As for the website, please collaborate with the comms team.
  479. Ge0rG https://op-co.de/tmp/xmpp-compliance-badges-2020/ :D
  480. Guus Isn't the website merely a reflection of what's in the most up-to-date CS?
  481. antranigv has left
  482. ralphm Ge0rG: hooray!
  483. Ge0rG Guus: it would suffice to have a page on the website that explains CS (copy&paste from the CS intro!) and links to the document du jour
  484. Guus If we can avoid changing or adding any processes, and just have a page that reflects that... that'd be ... good?
  485. Ge0rG Guus: a paragraph, a bold link to current year, a list with links to previous editions
  486. pep. > The feedback was mainly: > - we need badges to make CS more useful > - the XEP process is horrible, we need just a webpage Is that really the only feedback? You (council) discarded the part where some said they're not so useful as is?
  487. alameyo has left
  488. alameyo has joined
  489. Ge0rG Guus: and a place in the website where it should be
  490. ralphm I'd indeed just create a PR and have someone in comms +1 it
  491. Guus all fine by me - but more of a commsteam issue than board?
  492. Ge0rG Guus: somebody needs to do it
  493. Guus sure, but that's not neccesarily a board member? :_)
  494. Ge0rG Guus: I hoped Board can direct some resources at it.
  495. Guus I don't think so, as board depends on volunteers.
  496. Guus unless you propose hiring someone or somesuch
  497. Seve I'm very busy at the moment but I will try to tackle that Ge0rG
  498. Ge0rG > I've failed to get in contact with the person who initially offered to do the design does that mean you tried and they didn't respond or that you had no chance to try?
  499. Ge0rG Seve: cool, thanks!
  500. Seve I'm also in comms so.. ;)))
  501. ralphm Ge0rG, I tried and they didn't respond
  502. ralphm (several times)
  503. Ge0rG ralphm: cool, thanks for that!
  504. Ge0rG there was significant bike-shedding of the design a year ago or two, and an alternative design by theTedd.
  505. ralphm Thanks, Seve
  506. stpeter has joined
  507. stpeter has left
  508. Ge0rG So I have mixed feelings about just pushing through with mine, as it's clearly not perfect
  509. ralphm Ge0rG, let's just have something, and then go from there.
  510. Guus +1
  511. Ge0rG But OTOH, I could just PR it on shields.io and be done
  512. ralphm If somebody then steps up with: "hey, I fixed your fugly graphix, here's the PR", then yay
  513. Guus I'm applauding all of your efforts, Ge0rG - unsure if your due dilligence by running it past board adds unneeded delays though.
  514. ralphm ok
  515. ralphm 4. AOB
  516. Seve I would like for next meeting to discuss this https://trello.com/c/GHGXcYuq/405-how-should-we-approach-txxmpps-pr
  517. mukt2 has left
  518. mukt2 has joined
  519. pep. I had a quick look and I don't see the issue. happy to take that to next meeting
  520. Seve It has been there for a while already and would like to close the issue
  521. Seve (No more AOB here)
  522. ralphm Ok
  523. ralphm 5. Date of Next
  524. ralphm +1W
  525. ralphm 6. Close
  526. ralphm Thanks all
  527. Guus Thanks!
  528. ralphm bangs gavel
  529. Seve Thank you everyone 🙂
  530. pep. thanks
  531. Ge0rG is it me or is git.gnupg.org down?
  532. Ge0rG MattJ: so, do you volunteer to make a useful modern client list?
  533. MattJ On the page you linked: s/Pidgin/Gajim/;s/Adium/Beagle IM/
  534. MattJ I'll let you make the call for Android :)
  535. lorddavidiii has left
  536. Ge0rG yeah, it's obviously s/Yaxim/yaxim/
  537. mukt2 has left
  538. MattJ Pidgin and Adium are borderline unmaintained right now (I know they have hope to revive Pidgin's XMPP support Soon™, but I'm not holding my breath, and Adium basically has no developers at all)
  539. Ge0rG MattJ: I am aware of that, but is Beagle a good modern desktop client?
  540. Ge0rG What about Swift.IM and Dino?
  541. Ge0rG Monal desktop probably isn't there yet
  542. MattJ Dino isn't officially packaged for Windows, and... I think it doesn't support MAM in MUCs yet (?)
  543. Zash MattJ: Accurate afaik
  544. Ge0rG MattJ: did you test BeagleIM on mac?
  545. MattJ and I haven't been following Swift recently, but pretty sure it's even further behind on that kind of thing
  546. MattJ No, I haven't
  547. mukt2 has joined
  548. serge90 has left
  549. MattJ That would require dusting off my Mac, which I do need to do at some point
  550. Ge0rG so there is no reliable recommendation for macOS?
  551. lorddavidiii has joined
  552. MattJ Beagle is using the same underlying code as Siskin, I don't have a problem with recommending it
  553. Andrzej the question is what moden client is?
  554. MattJ Not Adium
  555. Andrzej Beagle has the same set of features as Siskin and is based on the same library
  556. Ge0rG Andrzej: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0423.html would be a good start :D
  557. MattJ If it supports MUC, HTTP upload, and MAM, we're pretty good I think
  558. Ge0rG MAM and Carbons
  559. neshtaxmpp has left
  560. Andrzej it has MUC, MAM:2, HTTP File Upload, VoIP (jingle/JMI), Carbons, MIX, Message retraction, last message correction, etc
  561. Zash And MAM in MUC?
  562. Andrzej it is available since latest release
  563. Ge0rG Andrzej: that's great!
  564. Andrzej VCardTemp, VCard4, PEP based avatars, stream management, XEP-0184, chat states (partially), user blocking,
  565. Andrzej I would say it almost matches CS2020 as it is missing Jingle File Transfer and `/me` command
  566. Ge0rG WHAT? NO /me?!?!
  567. Zash THE MOST IMPORTANT XEP OF ALL!!!11!!!1
  568. Ge0rG is disappointed
  569. Seve Hah
  570. winfried has left
  571. winfried has joined
  572. Zash Someone actually told me once that XMPP wasn't acceptable because of a client that didn't do /me
  573. serge90 has joined
  574. Andrzej I do not fell that I'm missing something due to lack of `/me` but someone would report that as a feature maybe it could be added
  575. Andrzej I do not fell that I'm missing something due to lack of `/me` but if someone would report that as a feature maybe it could be added
  576. Ge0rG Technically, it's `/me `
  577. Zash Weird semantics-shoehorned-into-<body> thing, but it's one of those small details.
  578. pep. Zash: may I remind you a sentence of yours this day :p
  579. Zash ?
  580. pep. “Giving up and adding more hacks isn't going to help with that”
  581. sonny has left
  582. winfried has left
  583. winfried has joined
  584. Zash Well-established hack dating back to IRC behavior.
  585. Zash If you come up with a way to do this in a more XMPP-ish way, I'm all ears. Or eyes.
  586. Ge0rG Zash: technically, the wire-format is not from IRC. The XMPP variation added a hack on top of XMPP
  587. Zash message { is-action body "is doing stuff" }
  588. mdosch likes /me
  589. Zash Ge0rG: Why I said "behavior", not protocol. :)
  590. mdosch > mdosch likes /me But not when someone is quoting it as you don't know anymore who is /me
  591. mdosch Woo, conversations changed that.
  592. sonny has joined
  593. sonny has left
  594. Ge0rG I wonder if I should steal that
  595. Daniel this seems like a bug
  596. mdosch Do it!
  597. Daniel unless you do it properly of course
  598. Zash a featurebug!
  599. neshtaxmpp has joined
  600. Zash Speaking of which, where'd references & co go?
  601. MattJ Andrzej, https://github.com/tigase/beagle-im/issues/50 - you're welcome :)
  602. sonny has joined
  603. pep. well the good thing about stuffing everything in body is that clients don't need support!
  604. sonny has left
  605. adityaborikar has left
  606. lorddavidiii has left
  607. j.r has left
  608. Ge0rG is Siskin in a usable state for end users?
  609. Ge0rG I had to give away my iPhone recently
  610. serge90 has left
  611. Wojtek has joined
  612. antranigv has joined
  613. Andrzej I would say "yes", but it depends on what you expect from the app, used server, etc.
  614. MattJ I would say "no", but that also applies to most software I use and write every day... :)
  615. Ge0rG Andrzej: a client where a technically competent person can set up an account and join a MUC without jumping through burning hoops or running into dead ends (failure without error messages etc)
  616. MattJ I haven't tried the latest release yet, but I think all the issues I could find are reported as fixed
  617. Ge0rG cool
  618. Andrzej MattJ, yes they are fixed
  619. Andrzej and some parts of the UI are simpler now
  620. Ge0rG is it reasonable to list Dino as a Linux client?
  621. MattJ Nice
  622. MattJ Ge0rG, I worry about it not supporting MUC MAM
  623. Ge0rG MattJ: yaxim doesn't either. MUC history seemed good enough for me
  624. MattJ In a MUC-focused deployment, that will be a weird cause of confusion if Dino users only see some of the history
  625. Ge0rG Also the interaction between MAM and joining a room is bad.
  626. Ge0rG whoever invented that...
  627. adityaborikar has joined
  628. krauq has left
  629. krauq has joined
  630. sonny has joined
  631. j.r has joined
  632. APach has left
  633. APach has joined
  634. APach has left
  635. APach has joined
  636. j.r has left
  637. j.r has joined
  638. serge90 has joined
  639. antranigv has left
  640. neshtaxmpp has left
  641. emus has joined
  642. theTedd has joined
  643. theTedd has left
  644. theTedd has joined
  645. theTedd has left
  646. theTedd has joined
  647. theTedd has left
  648. theTedd has joined
  649. theTedd has left
  650. LNJ has left
  651. theTedd has joined
  652. theTedd has left
  653. theTedd has joined
  654. theTedd has left
  655. mrtedd has joined
  656. mrtedd has left
  657. theTedd has joined
  658. thorsten has left
  659. thorsten has joined
  660. lovetox has left
  661. theTedd is currently working on *something* re: badges (we can always fiddle with the design) and compliance suites (current, history, future directions)
  662. lorddavidiii has joined
  663. Ge0rG theTedd: that's exciting!
  664. theTedd also, Ge0rG, I had some suggestions for CS (actually from last time, but I didn't want to interrupt the process) - let me know whenever you're mentally prepared 😉
  665. Ge0rG theTedd: I totally loved your badge generator workflow, maybe you can make it work out of DOAP?
  666. Ge0rG theTedd: just pile them on https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/980
  667. theTedd I have considered that, in addition to just dumping a text list of xeps
  668. Ge0rG theTedd: I'm currently mentally not able to do useful discussion, but feel free nevertheless
  669. theTedd that's what I presumed; it's more ideas/discussion than PR suitable
  670. Ge0rG and re badges, I thought about putting the level and year on the RHS of the badge, something like [Mobile Client: 2020 Core] with colorcoding of advanced>core and 2020>2019>...
  671. Ge0rG </bikeshed>
  672. theTedd I will be doing colours by year (shades of green through orange and red)
  673. theTedd related question: is there anything for a client to actually implement for XEP-0411 (Bookmarks Conversion) ?
  674. Zash If it has code to do bookmarks conversion itself, disable that if it sees the feature.
  675. theTedd I was wondering whether it makes sense to have it as a requirement in the CS for clients (it currently is for IM Advanced)
  676. Ge0rG theTedd: yes, because both legacy bookmark formats are mandatory for Advanced IM Client
  677. Ge0rG so if you have a server that does 0411, you'll end up with duplicate bookmarks
  678. theTedd right, okay
  679. theTedd in other news:this muc kicks me if I join from jabber.org (which may be justified)
  680. LNJ has joined
  681. mdosch You can't join or you get kicked?
  682. theTedd it joins, sync, and is then immediately kicked with "Kicked: jid malformed" (errors 333 and 110)
  683. theTedd I'm assuming it's actually a S2S issue
  684. pep. your client sending an error to the muc?
  685. mdosch But yeah, jabber.org is difficult. My s2s to it is broken for a long time. First we didn't share a cipher, now I can't validate the cert and it relies on dialback which is diabled here.
  686. Zash A 199 ping from jabber.org to muc.xmpp.org seems to get there and back just fine
  687. Ge0rG theTedd: sounds like one of the nicknames here causes jabber.org to freak out
  688. Ge0rG I blame Rixon 👁🗨
  689. Ge0rG You receive initial presence, your server dislikes it and bounces the stanza, you get kicked
  690. Zash This can be from the Prosody MUC code if your nickname does not satisfy resourceprep in "strict mode"
  691. theTedd_ has joined
  692. theTedd_ has left
  693. Zash ... or maybe not
  694. eta has left
  695. theTedd joining jdev and council worked, so yeah it's probably a nick
  696. eta has joined
  697. j.r has left
  698. Zash Mmm, yeah, looks like Rixon 👁🗨
  699. Zash Oh wait, the "strict mode" thing isn't in a release, so never mind.
  700. Nano4BeingYou has joined
  701. mukt2 has left
  702. eta MattJ: lack of MUC MAM is definitely an issue
  703. eta Ge0rG: you just don't notice it on yaxim because your phone is nearly always on
  704. krauq has left
  705. lovetox has joined
  706. krauq has joined
  707. theTedd has left
  708. Guus has left
  709. Guus has joined
  710. Guus has left
  711. mukt2 has joined
  712. Guus has joined
  713. winfried has left
  714. winfried has joined
  715. mukt2 has left
  716. winfried has left
  717. winfried has joined
  718. mukt2 has joined
  719. arc has left
  720. arc has joined
  721. winfried has left
  722. winfried has joined
  723. winfried has left
  724. winfried has joined
  725. winfried has left
  726. winfried has joined
  727. Steve Kille has left
  728. Steve Kille has joined
  729. werdan has joined
  730. j.r has joined
  731. Ge0rG eta: that's true. Also I've configured my rooms to keep 500 messages and to return 50 by default
  732. Ge0rG and yaxim will poll for history since the last message's timestamp. That's absolutely not prone to race conditions!
  733. neshtaxmpp has joined
  734. lovetox has left
  735. mukt2 has left
  736. arc has left
  737. arc has joined
  738. mukt2 has joined
  739. DebXWoody has left
  740. Dele Olajide has left
  741. neshtaxmpp has left
  742. lovetox has joined
  743. DebXWoody has joined
  744. mukt2 has left
  745. mukt2 has joined
  746. Andrzej has left
  747. j.r has left
  748. j.r has joined
  749. eta has left
  750. DebXWoody has left
  751. DebXWoody has joined
  752. eta has joined
  753. Andrzej has joined
  754. Andrzej has left
  755. Andrzej has joined
  756. krauq has left
  757. krauq has joined
  758. sonny has left
  759. sonny has joined
  760. arc has left
  761. arc has joined
  762. serge90 has left
  763. serge90 has joined
  764. serge90 has left
  765. serge90 has joined
  766. Andrzej has left
  767. Andrzej has joined
  768. wurstsalat has left
  769. wurstsalat has joined
  770. debacle has left
  771. krauq has left
  772. Andrzej has left
  773. krauq has joined
  774. eevvoor has left
  775. sonny has left
  776. Dele Olajide has joined
  777. neshtaxmpp has joined
  778. serge90 has left
  779. serge90 has joined
  780. Andrzej has joined
  781. serge90 has left
  782. serge90 has joined
  783. debacle has joined
  784. sonny has joined
  785. serge90 has left
  786. serge90 has joined
  787. sonny has left
  788. Yagiza has left
  789. sonny has joined
  790. Dele Olajide has left
  791. sonny has left
  792. Mikaela has left
  793. lorddavidiii has left
  794. Dele Olajide has joined
  795. sonny has joined
  796. sonny has left
  797. Maranda has left
  798. Maranda has joined
  799. mukt2 has left
  800. mukt2 has joined
  801. pasdesushi has joined
  802. sonny has joined
  803. DebXWoody has left
  804. karoshi has joined
  805. lorddavidiii has joined
  806. pasdesushi has left
  807. pasdesushi has joined
  808. sonny has left
  809. sonny has joined
  810. mukt2 has left
  811. pasdesushi has left
  812. pasdesushi has joined
  813. pasdesushi has left
  814. pasdesushi has joined
  815. sonny has left
  816. mukt2 has joined
  817. pasdesushi has left
  818. Tobias has left
  819. neshtaxmpp has left
  820. sonny has joined
  821. sonny has left
  822. sonny has joined
  823. lovetox_ has joined
  824. lovetox_ has left
  825. lovetox_ has joined
  826. lovetox_ has left
  827. lovetox_ has joined
  828. lovetox_ has left
  829. sonny has left
  830. mukt2 has left
  831. mukt2 has joined
  832. sonny has joined
  833. sonny has left
  834. sonny has joined
  835. sonny has left
  836. mukt2 has left
  837. mukt2 has joined
  838. krauq has left
  839. krauq has joined
  840. stpeter has joined
  841. stpeter has left
  842. adityaborikar has left
  843. arc has left
  844. arc has joined
  845. Nano4BeingYou has left
  846. lovetox_ has joined
  847. Nekit has left
  848. lovetox_ has left
  849. neshtaxmpp has joined
  850. Nekit has joined
  851. sonny has joined
  852. serge90 has left
  853. arc has left
  854. arc has joined
  855. werdan has left
  856. paul has left
  857. antranigv has joined
  858. mukt2 has left
  859. lorddavidiii has left
  860. mukt2 has joined
  861. stpeter has joined
  862. stpeter has left
  863. goffi has left
  864. Andrzej has left
  865. lovetox has left
  866. sonny has left
  867. sonny has joined
  868. antranigv has left
  869. antranigv has joined
  870. neshtaxmpp has left
  871. neshtaxmpp has joined
  872. Andrzej has joined
  873. mukt2 has left
  874. mukt2 has joined
  875. Dele Olajide has left
  876. Dele Olajide has joined
  877. antranigv has left
  878. Andrzej has left
  879. Andrzej has joined
  880. alameyo has left
  881. alameyo has joined
  882. mukt2 has left
  883. krauq has left
  884. mukt2 has joined
  885. arc has left
  886. arc has joined
  887. Andrzej has left
  888. Andrzej has joined
  889. alameyo has left
  890. alameyo has joined
  891. jcbrand has left
  892. winfried has left
  893. winfried has joined
  894. winfried has left
  895. winfried has joined
  896. mukt2 has left
  897. emus has left
  898. winfried has left
  899. winfried has joined
  900. winfried has left
  901. winfried has joined
  902. antranigv has joined
  903. antranigv has left
  904. mukt2 has joined
  905. sonny has left
  906. Andrzej has left
  907. neshtaxmpp has left
  908. sonny has joined
  909. mukt2 has left
  910. lskdjf has left
  911. Andrzej has joined
  912. mukt2 has joined
  913. Wojtek has left
  914. peetah has left
  915. peetah has joined
  916. darkijah has joined
  917. darkijah has left