flowpep., if you replace it, then the old/previous feature is also gone, right?
mukt2has joined
pep.yes
flowso i'd just remove all traces of "max" and add a new feature for your proposed "-1"
flowrelated: I do wonder if there should be room for a union type form field, e.g. this field's value is either a int or one of "foo", "bar" or "baz".✎
flowrelated: I do wonder if there should be room for a union type form field type, e.g. this field's value is either a int or one of "foo", "bar" or "baz". ✏
flowas I also don't like overloading integer values with extra semantics (think "error codes"), but I can see that the way of least resistance may be the way forward in this case
debaclehas joined
Nekithas left
krauqhas left
Guushas left
Guushas joined
Nekithas joined
krauqhas joined
mukt2has left
Daniel> as I also don't like overloading integer values with extra semantics (think "error codes"), but I can see that the way of least resistance may be the way forward in this case
I'm really not a fan of this either. That's why my original proposal didn't.
But it seems like the community has spoken
pep.yeah I'm also not a fan, but..
lorddavidiiihas joined
j.rhas left
j.rhas joined
mukt2has joined
MattJTo be clear 'max' is not a blocker for me
flow> But it seems like the community has spoken
I am not sure if I'd put it that way. Clearly there are two different camps in how this should be done. What we should do now is to see if we can find a compromise
flowMattJ, ahh ok, I assumed that pep made the propsoal because this was blocking adoption by prosody
MattJWe have had this discussion already in the past year, and I think the conclusion was that we need some new type like 'integer-with-max'
flowmore like "integer-with-list-of-predifined-strings", but yes✎
flowmore like "integer-with-list-of-predefined-strings", but yes ✏
thorstenhas left
MattJPredefined where?
thorstenhas joined
stpeterhas joined
stpeterhas left
MattJThe point is that we need to validate it, so the list of possible strings needs to be known
flowhence predefined
MattJSo what strings are you thinking?
davidhas left
davidhas joined
sonnyhas joined
flowdepends on the use case
flowthe xep where the form field is specified in also declares those
jcbrandhas joined
MattJNo thanks
debaclehas left
ZashHow about 'min' and 'max' as aliases for the xep122(?) min and max limits?
MattJI mean, again not a blocker, but annoying
eevvoorhas joined
MattJYes, min and max makes sense
mukt2has left
Marandahas left
MattJWhat I would rather not have is an open-ended data type where the possible legal values are dependent on context
KevZash: I think max is distinct from the integer limit though, no?
KevIn that it's asking the server to be essentially unlimited, as much as is allowed.
Kev(I don't particularly have a horse in this race, I think pretty much anything is workable here)
MattJThe max integer limit is "as much as is allowed"
MattJBut what I'm guessing you're saying is that it may change
HolgerMattJ: It wouldn't really depend on _context_, in that this field variable would always have this data type, no? (We do have XEPs where valid types do depend on context, I do hate _that_ ...)
MattJHolger: what I took the proposal to be is a data type that is essentially an integer or string
MattJWhere the strings are chosen by the XEP it is used in
MattJWhich is almost useless for validation
pep.> MattJ, ahh ok, I assumed that pep made the propsoal because this was blocking adoption by prosody
I kinda did?
Marandahas joined
pep.if it's not blocking then.. great? :)
HolgerMattJ: We have various form fields and whatnot where an XEP defines a limited set of valid strings already, no? (I.e. enumerations ...)
HolgerWhatever, in this specific case it's really about integer|'unlimited', not integer|string, right ...
ZashAnd those would use list options
MattJI'll restate the problem: we offload dataform parsing and validation to a library, it currently takes care of ensuring max_items is an integer, and so on. The proposed "max" change means we have to stop declaring this field as an integer and move all validation back into code that uses the library
HolgerMattJ: Or fix the library ;-)
MattJObviously that can be done, but using this "max" hack has come up in other contexts since
MattJHolger: fix it to do what?
Holger(I have a similar problem but I do see how union types are useful to support.)
MattJ"max" is not valid for xs:integer
HolgerTo support validation of complex types.
Ge0rGif somebody had told Council back then, we'd probably have approved -1 instead of "max" or "∞"
mukt2has joined
HolgerI just wouldn't have seen declaring the type to be "integer|'unlimited'" (or in other cases "integer|enum('one', 'two', 'three')") as a hack. Quite the opposite, I'd see limiting us to simple types as a hack to work around implementation problems.
pep.Not everything goes into integers indeed. and having "max" is certainly more explicit than "-1" for clients or server devs
lorddavidiiihas left
MattJHolger: it's based on XEP-0122 so that validation constraints can be communicated to clients
HolgerAh!
MattJSo all I'm asking is that we use a proper defined type instead
pep.So it's a spec limiting an implementation limiting another spec!
flowwe surely could extend xep122 to support those kind union form field type✎
Holgerpep.: Exactly.
flowwe surely could extend xep122 to support those kinds of union form field types ✏
lovetoxhas joined
MattJI'd be totally happy to get behind that - and I see it being useful in other contexts too
dwdhas left
dwdhas joined
pep.That does mean a lot more work..
MattJI'm also happy with xmpp:integer-with-max :)
MattJWhatever makes most sense to people
pep.UsefulPubSubThings when? (hint: never!!)
thorstenhas left
thorstenhas joined
emushas left
pep.A well thought design is appealing, but the path leading to that is full of ambushes :p
pep.Long and perilous
ZashSo we should just pile on hacks?
MattJpep.: yes, I know spec work is draining in this way :(
thorstenhas left
thorstenhas joined
pep.Zash: isn't that what happens in practice most of the time
debaclehas joined
ZashGiving up and adding more hacks isn't going to help with that
pep.I agree, but that needs work and dedication. I'm curious how projects like Movim and Sàt ever managed to make something useful out of pubsub without this tbh, or what I point out in https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-October/036503.html
MattJMe too
antranigvhas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
antranigvhas joined
mukt2has left
emushas joined
eevvoorhas left
antranigvhas left
antranigvhas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lskdjfhas joined
antranigvhas left
Steve Killehas left
antranigvhas joined
Steve Killehas joined
antranigvhas left
antranigvhas joined
antranigvhas left
antranigvhas joined
mukt2has joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
antranigvhas left
antranigvhas joined
Dele Olajidehas joined
antranigvhas left
mukt2has left
alameyohas left
alameyohas joined
mukt2has joined
archas left
archas joined
karoshihas left
karoshihas joined
karoshihas left
stpeterhas joined
stpeterhas left
intosihas left
lovetoxhas left
intosihas joined
neshtaxmpphas joined
intosihas left
intosihas joined
antranigvhas joined
krauqhas left
krauqhas joined
eevvoorhas joined
pep.I may not be entirely available for the board meeting. I'll be in transports in between things (missing a word.)
Ge0rGI have two AOBs for Board.
Ge0rGOr rather, Council has.
etapep., MattJ: I think movim just gets you to force max-items to something high
etain server config, that is
MattJWe're also lacking a config option to ask the server to return an error when reaching the limit, rather than discarding older items
pep.eta, yeah and that fails whenever an operator is not aware one of their users is using movim
pep.And what MattJ says
pep.(which I mentioned in my email last year)
etaah.
papatutuwawahas joined
pep.Even though for the issue I mentioned just now, that's possibly another issue that goes alongside using servers that correspond to your use-case
pep.(how to find them is something I want to tackle but -ENOTIME)
pep.Busy adding custom types in XEPs
pep.MattJ, something something registry not working.
pep.How do I define a datatype in a registrar definition? :/
pep.I mean not just saying it exists
pep.Taking example on https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0137.xml#registrar.xdata-validate, that includes a definition from the XEP itself, is that enough?
pep.I'm not entirely sure this is the correct thing to do though, MattJ. You can apply a range to xs:integer for sure but how to you apply a range to <xs:simpleType><xs:union><xs:simpleType><xs:restriction base='nonNegativeInteger'/></xs:simpleType><xs:simpleType><xs:restriction base='string'><enumeration value='max'/></xs:restriction></xs:simpleType></xs:union></xs:simpletype>
pep.What I had in mind at the beginning was to allow servers to send over their own type definition :x
krauqhas left
pep.But that's madness
krauqhas joined
Ge0rGkinda like EXI?
MattJAgreed, madness :)
pep.But then how do I solve the <range/> thing.
pep.It's also not like it could be applied to a variant of our custom union type because there's no variant
pep.And I can't define another derived integer type with custom range because every deployment is different :)
pep.In this new XEP/modification to existing XEP I might be able to say "any <range/> thing applies to this integer value" but that's meh
MattJIt's meh but I'm not sure I see another solution
pep.Fortunately 122 says there can only be one <range/> within <validate/> (in the non-normative schema)
mukt2has joined
pep.another solution would be to go to the w3c with a revolutionary union type with variants! (not me plz)
neshtaxmpphas joined
lovetoxhas joined
j.rhas left
j.rhas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
j.rhas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
neshtaxmpphas left
adityaborikarhas left
adityaborikarhas joined
mukt2has left
mukt2has joined
eevvoorhas left
antranigvhas left
etahas left
etahas joined
neshtaxmpphas joined
antranigvhas joined
stpeterhas joined
stpeterhas left
antranigvhas left
antranigvhas joined
antranigvhas left
lskdjfhas left
lskdjfhas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
antranigvhas joined
krauqhas left
krauqhas joined
mukt2has left
mukt2has joined
mukt2has left
mukt2has joined
adityaborikarhas left
adityaborikarhas joined
j.rhas joined
Dele Olajidehas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
adityaborikarhas left
adityaborikarhas joined
eevvoorhas joined
moparisthebesthas left
moparisthebesthas joined
mukt2has left
APachhas left
APachhas joined
Dele Olajidehas joined
LNJhas joined
florettahas joined
krauqhas left
krauqhas joined
stpeterhas joined
stpeterhas left
mukt2has joined
lorddavidiiihas left
lovetoxhas left
lovetoxhas joined
mukt2has left
lorddavidiiihas joined
Mikaelahas left
Mikaelahas joined
archas left
archas joined
archas left
archas joined
serge90has left
serge90has joined
antranigvhas left
mukt2has joined
antranigvhas joined
adityaborikarhas left
adityaborikarhas joined
eevvoorhas left
eevvoorhas joined
ralphmbangs gavel
ralphm0. Welcome + Agenda
pep.half-here
ralphmHi
Seve👋
SeveMattJ Guus
Guushi
Guussorry
MattJOh, forgot it was Thursday
MattJo/
eevvoorhas left
ralphmwelcome all
ralphmI've added an item from last meeting from Ge0rG
ralphmAnd although my name wasn't mentioned thrice, it appeared that dwd had a suggestion for a topic from the Council meeting, too
emushas left
ralphmHope either of them is around.
GuusI'd really like to receive agendas prior to the meeting, so that we can prepare. We've agreed on that, didn't we?
Ge0rGralphm: the Council asked to create a web page linking to the latest / emphasizing the latest and linking to all Compliance Suite(s)
ralphmWe did indeed. My apologies
Ge0rGralphm: and the second question from dwd was "what about the badges"
Ge0rG(I'm paraphrasing here)
ralphmok
dwdFor board to consider: the discussion on the compliance suites.
ralphm1. Minute taker
ralphmI'll write up minutes later.
ralphm2. IETF's use of Jabber
ralphmThis was an AOB item by Ge0rG last meeting.
ralphmGe0rG, what is this about?
Ge0rGthere was a thread on the IETF (users?) ML about how they are trying Slack as an IM alternative
Ge0rGand in that thread, there were some opinions about XMPP that are based on ~15 years old facts
Ge0rGso I wrote a nice mail to their xmpp admin, offering help with improving their xmpp infrastructure as well as their recommended clients
ralphmAh, I haven't seen that.
Ge0rGthe xmpp admin forwarded it to the IETF Executive Director
ralphmThanks for picking that up. Any response, yet?
Ge0rGyes, we've had some communication, and the next step would be to set up a converse.js instance, help them a bit with ejabberd config and provide better client recommendations
Ge0rGThe ones on https://www.ietf.org/jabber/ are also ~15 years old
antranigvhas left
Ge0rGDo we have something solid we can recommend for the major platforms?
eevvoorhas joined
Ge0rGThey also asked if we can offer commercial-grade service / hosting for them, but I declined
Ge0rGwe can hardly offer commercial-grade hosting for our own needs.
ralphmYou can, 'we' can't.
flowbut I think we have people who do offer commercial-grade hosting?
MattJThe XSF obviously doesn't offer hosting, but I'm sure there are people who would be happy to provide such an offering
Ge0rGralphm: the original mail was signed by me and two other XSF members
ralphmI.e. we, the XSF, vs you, people in the community.
Ge0rGflow: those people need to stand up and volunteer then.
flowwait volunteer?
flowI assumed we where talking about commercial paid services
Ge0rGflow: no
flowahh so commercial-grade without the commercial
Ge0rGNone of the people who contributed to the initial mail volunteered any infrastructure yet.
Ge0rGflow: commercial-grade as opposed to commercial
MattJI'm assuming they don't just want a random XMPP community member running this
GuusGe0rG I suppose we can call for volunteers on a mailinglist?
Ge0rGbut maybe that was just a misunderstanding between me and the IETF folks
ralphmMattJ, right, that makes sense
MattJThere are a number of commercial entities around XMPP who I'm sure would be happy to sponsor a commercial-grade deployment for the IETF
ralphmDo IETF also provide XMPP accounts, or just the groupchat service?
flowwasn't the initial jabber setup of the ietf done by some random xmpp community member?
Guusexactly my thought Matt
ralphmI seem to remember we did the latter long, long, long time ago.
Guusthis all is exciting, and I applaud the people involved to have picked this up - but how is this a board issue?
Ge0rGralphm: they are only hosting the MUC server and intend to keep doing so.
Ge0rGralphm: aka. they don't want to host user accounts themselves
Ge0rGbut they'd probably be grateful to have a recommended server with IBR and good stability
Ge0rGor a small list of recommended servers
ralphmGuus: the question might be, besides running muc.xmpp.org, do you also want to run muc.ietf.org, as an XSF effort. This would surely need to pass board.
flowAhh, that MUC-only requirement may lower the bar to provide the service for free
Ge0rGI'd offer mine, but it lacks both in stability and in bus factor
Ge0rGralphm: I don't think they want to change hosting for their MUC component.
ralphmok
Ge0rGI'm pretty sure we can put up a Holger to review their configuration and to add / fine-tune the modules needed for MAM and all the other fancy stuff, though
ralphmSure
Ge0rGThen we also need to make a list of recommended clients
Ge0rGAnd then we need to set up a converse.js instance with a nice fancy web front listing all their MUCs
pep.Ge0rG: 'we'? we can hardly get a client list up on our website :)
ralphmI'm reluctant to provide a recommendation on behalf of the XSF.
Ge0rGAny other volunteers?
ralphmBut I know there are people in this discussion with opinions, that'd be perfectly fine to be voiced.
ralphmOutside of their capacity within the XSF.
Ge0rGthe last mail from the IETF came on Sept 8th, and I failed to respond so far.
Ge0rGralphm: I don't want to make it political, I want to help in pragmatic and useful ways
ralphmIndeed.
GuusI do not see an issue with individuals making recommendations, even if those individuals have XSF associations.
ralphmI very much like us to help the IETF, don't get me wrong.
Ge0rGralphm: 'us'?
ralphmJust that given the recent discussion, it cannot be an XSF recommendation.
Ge0rGI'm perfectly fine with signing that recommendation with my name only.
antranigvhas joined
Ge0rGBut I still need help preparing it, see above.
MattJI'm happy to recommend some clients
ralphmSee :-D
Ge0rGAlso I'm going on vacation in some days and my capacity to prepare something will go from ~0 to ~-10
Ge0rGMattJ: yes, ripping your client recommendation list came to my mind
Guus10 minutes left. Does this need furhter board action?
MattJThe new one in Prosody? That's less of a recommendation list and more a list of clients that came to mind, but yeah
Ge0rGMattJ: maybe in terms of a diff to https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/jabber/ ;)
Ge0rGGuus: no, that was FYI
ralphmGuus: I think can move the remainder of this discussion outside of the meeting.
ralphmThanks for noting this Ge0rG!
Ge0rGunless the Board wants to get all political and provide actual help, of course
ralphm3. Compliancy Suites
Ge0rGCouncil is preparing a new Compliance Suite for 2021, and thus Dave was so kind to make a public inquiry on standards@ about their usefulness.
Ge0rGThe feedback was mainly:
- we need badges to make CS more useful
- the XEP process is horrible, we need just a webpage
Ge0rGBut a new webpage would require New Council Process as well as New Webteam Process, I've decided to stick to the old process so far.
Ge0rGI with my CS author hat, that is.
GuusWhy do we need processes to get a page added / modified on the website?
Ge0rGNevertheless, it would be Awesome:tm: to have Somebody Else:tm: create a page on our website that would be linked prominently and link to the current CS
ralphmI've failed to get in contact with the person who initially offered to do the design of the badges. At this point, I'd have whoever volunteers just create *something*.
Ge0rGGuus: up to now the Council has defined what belongs into CS. Of course we can delegate that to the Webteam
ralphmAs for the website, please collaborate with the comms team.
GuusIsn't the website merely a reflection of what's in the most up-to-date CS?
antranigvhas left
ralphmGe0rG: hooray!
Ge0rGGuus: it would suffice to have a page on the website that explains CS (copy&paste from the CS intro!) and links to the document du jour
GuusIf we can avoid changing or adding any processes, and just have a page that reflects that... that'd be ... good?
Ge0rGGuus: a paragraph, a bold link to current year, a list with links to previous editions
pep.> The feedback was mainly:
> - we need badges to make CS more useful
> - the XEP process is horrible, we need just a webpage
Is that really the only feedback? You (council) discarded the part where some said they're not so useful as is?
alameyohas left
alameyohas joined
Ge0rGGuus: and a place in the website where it should be
ralphmI'd indeed just create a PR and have someone in comms +1 it
Guusall fine by me - but more of a commsteam issue than board?
Ge0rGGuus: somebody needs to do it
Guussure, but that's not neccesarily a board member? :_)
Ge0rGGuus: I hoped Board can direct some resources at it.
GuusI don't think so, as board depends on volunteers.
Guusunless you propose hiring someone or somesuch
SeveI'm very busy at the moment but I will try to tackle that Ge0rG
Ge0rG> I've failed to get in contact with the person who initially offered to do the design
does that mean you tried and they didn't respond or that you had no chance to try?
Ge0rGSeve: cool, thanks!
SeveI'm also in comms so.. ;)))
ralphmGe0rG, I tried and they didn't respond
ralphm(several times)
Ge0rGralphm: cool, thanks for that!
Ge0rGthere was significant bike-shedding of the design a year ago or two, and an alternative design by theTedd.
ralphmThanks, Seve
stpeterhas joined
stpeterhas left
Ge0rGSo I have mixed feelings about just pushing through with mine, as it's clearly not perfect
ralphmGe0rG, let's just have something, and then go from there.
Guus+1
Ge0rGBut OTOH, I could just PR it on shields.io and be done
ralphmIf somebody then steps up with: "hey, I fixed your fugly graphix, here's the PR", then yay
GuusI'm applauding all of your efforts, Ge0rG - unsure if your due dilligence by running it past board adds unneeded delays though.
ralphmok
ralphm4. AOB
SeveI would like for next meeting to discuss this https://trello.com/c/GHGXcYuq/405-how-should-we-approach-txxmpps-pr
mukt2has left
mukt2has joined
pep.I had a quick look and I don't see the issue. happy to take that to next meeting
SeveIt has been there for a while already and would like to close the issue
Seve(No more AOB here)
ralphmOk
ralphm5. Date of Next
ralphm+1W
ralphm6. Close
ralphmThanks all
GuusThanks!
ralphmbangs gavel
SeveThank you everyone 🙂
pep.thanks
Ge0rGis it me or is git.gnupg.org down?
Ge0rGMattJ: so, do you volunteer to make a useful modern client list?
MattJOn the page you linked: s/Pidgin/Gajim/;s/Adium/Beagle IM/
MattJI'll let you make the call for Android :)
lorddavidiiihas left
Ge0rGyeah, it's obviously s/Yaxim/yaxim/
mukt2has left
MattJPidgin and Adium are borderline unmaintained right now (I know they have hope to revive Pidgin's XMPP support Soon™, but I'm not holding my breath, and Adium basically has no developers at all)
Ge0rGMattJ: I am aware of that, but is Beagle a good modern desktop client?
Ge0rGWhat about Swift.IM and Dino?
Ge0rGMonal desktop probably isn't there yet
MattJDino isn't officially packaged for Windows, and... I think it doesn't support MAM in MUCs yet (?)
ZashMattJ: Accurate afaik
Ge0rGMattJ: did you test BeagleIM on mac?
MattJand I haven't been following Swift recently, but pretty sure it's even further behind on that kind of thing
MattJNo, I haven't
mukt2has joined
serge90has left
MattJThat would require dusting off my Mac, which I do need to do at some point
Ge0rGso there is no reliable recommendation for macOS?
lorddavidiiihas joined
MattJBeagle is using the same underlying code as Siskin, I don't have a problem with recommending it
Andrzejthe question is what moden client is?
MattJNot Adium
AndrzejBeagle has the same set of features as Siskin and is based on the same library
Ge0rGAndrzej: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0423.html would be a good start :D
MattJIf it supports MUC, HTTP upload, and MAM, we're pretty good I think
Ge0rGMAM and Carbons
neshtaxmpphas left
Andrzejit has MUC, MAM:2, HTTP File Upload, VoIP (jingle/JMI), Carbons, MIX, Message retraction, last message correction, etc
ZashAnd MAM in MUC?
Andrzejit is available since latest release
Ge0rGAndrzej: that's great!
AndrzejVCardTemp, VCard4, PEP based avatars, stream management, XEP-0184, chat states (partially), user blocking,
AndrzejI would say it almost matches CS2020 as it is missing Jingle File Transfer and `/me` command
Ge0rGWHAT? NO /me?!?!
ZashTHE MOST IMPORTANT XEP OF ALL!!!11!!!1
Ge0rGis disappointed
SeveHah
winfriedhas left
winfriedhas joined
ZashSomeone actually told me once that XMPP wasn't acceptable because of a client that didn't do /me
serge90has joined
AndrzejI do not fell that I'm missing something due to lack of `/me` but someone would report that as a feature maybe it could be added✎
AndrzejI do not fell that I'm missing something due to lack of `/me` but if someone would report that as a feature maybe it could be added ✏
Ge0rGTechnically, it's `/me `
ZashWeird semantics-shoehorned-into-<body> thing, but it's one of those small details.
pep.Zash: may I remind you a sentence of yours this day :p
Zash?
pep.“Giving up and adding more hacks isn't going to help with that”
sonnyhas left
winfriedhas left
winfriedhas joined
ZashWell-established hack dating back to IRC behavior.
ZashIf you come up with a way to do this in a more XMPP-ish way, I'm all ears. Or eyes.
Ge0rGZash: technically, the wire-format is not from IRC. The XMPP variation added a hack on top of XMPP
Zashmessage { is-action body "is doing stuff" }
mdoschlikes /me
ZashGe0rG: Why I said "behavior", not protocol. :)
mdosch> mdosch likes /me
But not when someone is quoting it as you don't know anymore who is /me
mdoschWoo, conversations changed that.
sonnyhas joined
sonnyhas left
Ge0rGI wonder if I should steal that
Danielthis seems like a bug
mdoschDo it!
Danielunless you do it properly of course
Zasha featurebug!
neshtaxmpphas joined
ZashSpeaking of which, where'd references & co go?
pep.well the good thing about stuffing everything in body is that clients don't need support!
sonnyhas left
adityaborikarhas left
lorddavidiiihas left
j.rhas left
Ge0rGis Siskin in a usable state for end users?
Ge0rGI had to give away my iPhone recently
serge90has left
Wojtekhas joined
antranigvhas joined
AndrzejI would say "yes", but it depends on what you expect from the app, used server, etc.
MattJI would say "no", but that also applies to most software I use and write every day... :)
Ge0rGAndrzej: a client where a technically competent person can set up an account and join a MUC without jumping through burning hoops or running into dead ends (failure without error messages etc)
MattJI haven't tried the latest release yet, but I think all the issues I could find are reported as fixed
Ge0rGcool
AndrzejMattJ, yes they are fixed
Andrzejand some parts of the UI are simpler now
Ge0rGis it reasonable to list Dino as a Linux client?
MattJNice
MattJGe0rG, I worry about it not supporting MUC MAM
Ge0rGMattJ: yaxim doesn't either. MUC history seemed good enough for me
MattJIn a MUC-focused deployment, that will be a weird cause of confusion if Dino users only see some of the history
Ge0rGAlso the interaction between MAM and joining a room is bad.
Ge0rGwhoever invented that...
adityaborikarhas joined
krauqhas left
krauqhas joined
sonnyhas joined
j.rhas joined
APachhas left
APachhas joined
APachhas left
APachhas joined
j.rhas left
j.rhas joined
serge90has joined
antranigvhas left
neshtaxmpphas left
emushas joined
theTeddhas joined
theTeddhas left
theTeddhas joined
theTeddhas left
theTeddhas joined
theTeddhas left
theTeddhas joined
theTeddhas left
LNJhas left
theTeddhas joined
theTeddhas left
theTeddhas joined
theTeddhas left
mrteddhas joined
mrteddhas left
theTeddhas joined
thorstenhas left
thorstenhas joined
lovetoxhas left
theTeddis currently working on *something* re: badges (we can always fiddle with the design) and compliance suites (current, history, future directions)
lorddavidiiihas joined
Ge0rGtheTedd: that's exciting!
theTeddalso, Ge0rG, I had some suggestions for CS (actually from last time, but I didn't want to interrupt the process) - let me know whenever you're mentally prepared 😉
Ge0rGtheTedd: I totally loved your badge generator workflow, maybe you can make it work out of DOAP?
Ge0rGtheTedd: just pile them on https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/980
theTeddI have considered that, in addition to just dumping a text list of xeps
Ge0rGtheTedd: I'm currently mentally not able to do useful discussion, but feel free nevertheless
theTeddthat's what I presumed; it's more ideas/discussion than PR suitable
Ge0rGand re badges, I thought about putting the level and year on the RHS of the badge, something like [Mobile Client: 2020 Core] with colorcoding of advanced>core and 2020>2019>...
Ge0rG</bikeshed>
theTeddI will be doing colours by year (shades of green through orange and red)
theTeddrelated question: is there anything for a client to actually implement for XEP-0411 (Bookmarks Conversion) ?
ZashIf it has code to do bookmarks conversion itself, disable that if it sees the feature.
theTeddI was wondering whether it makes sense to have it as a requirement in the CS for clients (it currently is for IM Advanced)
Ge0rGtheTedd: yes, because both legacy bookmark formats are mandatory for Advanced IM Client
Ge0rGso if you have a server that does 0411, you'll end up with duplicate bookmarks
theTeddright, okay
theTeddin other news:this muc kicks me if I join from jabber.org (which may be justified)
LNJhas joined
mdoschYou can't join or you get kicked?
theTeddit joins, sync, and is then immediately kicked with "Kicked: jid malformed" (errors 333 and 110)
theTeddI'm assuming it's actually a S2S issue
pep.your client sending an error to the muc?
mdoschBut yeah, jabber.org is difficult. My s2s to it is broken for a long time. First we didn't share a cipher, now I can't validate the cert and it relies on dialback which is diabled here.
ZashA 199 ping from jabber.org to muc.xmpp.org seems to get there and back just fine
Ge0rGtheTedd: sounds like one of the nicknames here causes jabber.org to freak out
Ge0rGI blame Rixon 👁🗨
Ge0rGYou receive initial presence, your server dislikes it and bounces the stanza, you get kicked
ZashThis can be from the Prosody MUC code if your nickname does not satisfy resourceprep in "strict mode"
theTedd_has joined
theTedd_has left
Zash... or maybe not
etahas left
theTeddjoining jdev and council worked, so yeah it's probably a nick
etahas joined
j.rhas left
ZashMmm, yeah, looks like Rixon 👁🗨
ZashOh wait, the "strict mode" thing isn't in a release, so never mind.
Nano4BeingYouhas joined
mukt2has left
etaMattJ: lack of MUC MAM is definitely an issue
etaGe0rG: you just don't notice it on yaxim because your phone is nearly always on
krauqhas left
lovetoxhas joined
krauqhas joined
theTeddhas left
Guushas left
Guushas joined
Guushas left
mukt2has joined
Guushas joined
winfriedhas left
winfriedhas joined
mukt2has left
winfriedhas left
winfriedhas joined
mukt2has joined
archas left
archas joined
winfriedhas left
winfriedhas joined
winfriedhas left
winfriedhas joined
winfriedhas left
winfriedhas joined
Steve Killehas left
Steve Killehas joined
werdanhas joined
j.rhas joined
Ge0rGeta: that's true. Also I've configured my rooms to keep 500 messages and to return 50 by default
Ge0rGand yaxim will poll for history since the last message's timestamp. That's absolutely not prone to race conditions!