pep., if you replace it, then the old/previous feature is also gone, right?
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pep.
yes
flow
so i'd just remove all traces of "max" and add a new feature for your proposed "-1"
flow
related: I do wonder if there should be room for a union type form field, e.g. this field's value is either a int or one of "foo", "bar" or "baz".✎
flow
related: I do wonder if there should be room for a union type form field type, e.g. this field's value is either a int or one of "foo", "bar" or "baz". ✏
flow
as I also don't like overloading integer values with extra semantics (think "error codes"), but I can see that the way of least resistance may be the way forward in this case
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Daniel
> as I also don't like overloading integer values with extra semantics (think "error codes"), but I can see that the way of least resistance may be the way forward in this case
I'm really not a fan of this either. That's why my original proposal didn't.
But it seems like the community has spoken
pep.
yeah I'm also not a fan, but..
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MattJ
To be clear 'max' is not a blocker for me
flow
> But it seems like the community has spoken
I am not sure if I'd put it that way. Clearly there are two different camps in how this should be done. What we should do now is to see if we can find a compromise
flow
MattJ, ahh ok, I assumed that pep made the propsoal because this was blocking adoption by prosody
MattJ
We have had this discussion already in the past year, and I think the conclusion was that we need some new type like 'integer-with-max'
flow
more like "integer-with-list-of-predifined-strings", but yes✎
flow
more like "integer-with-list-of-predefined-strings", but yes ✏
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MattJ
Predefined where?
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MattJ
The point is that we need to validate it, so the list of possible strings needs to be known
flow
hence predefined
MattJ
So what strings are you thinking?
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flow
depends on the use case
flow
the xep where the form field is specified in also declares those
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MattJ
No thanks
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Zash
How about 'min' and 'max' as aliases for the xep122(?) min and max limits?
MattJ
I mean, again not a blocker, but annoying
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MattJ
Yes, min and max makes sense
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MattJ
What I would rather not have is an open-ended data type where the possible legal values are dependent on context
Kev
Zash: I think max is distinct from the integer limit though, no?
Kev
In that it's asking the server to be essentially unlimited, as much as is allowed.
Kev
(I don't particularly have a horse in this race, I think pretty much anything is workable here)
MattJ
The max integer limit is "as much as is allowed"
MattJ
But what I'm guessing you're saying is that it may change
Holger
MattJ: It wouldn't really depend on _context_, in that this field variable would always have this data type, no? (We do have XEPs where valid types do depend on context, I do hate _that_ ...)
MattJ
Holger: what I took the proposal to be is a data type that is essentially an integer or string
MattJ
Where the strings are chosen by the XEP it is used in
MattJ
Which is almost useless for validation
pep.
> MattJ, ahh ok, I assumed that pep made the propsoal because this was blocking adoption by prosody
I kinda did?
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pep.
if it's not blocking then.. great? :)
Holger
MattJ: We have various form fields and whatnot where an XEP defines a limited set of valid strings already, no? (I.e. enumerations ...)
Holger
Whatever, in this specific case it's really about integer|'unlimited', not integer|string, right ...
Zash
And those would use list options
MattJ
I'll restate the problem: we offload dataform parsing and validation to a library, it currently takes care of ensuring max_items is an integer, and so on. The proposed "max" change means we have to stop declaring this field as an integer and move all validation back into code that uses the library
Holger
MattJ: Or fix the library ;-)
MattJ
Obviously that can be done, but using this "max" hack has come up in other contexts since
MattJ
Holger: fix it to do what?
Holger
(I have a similar problem but I do see how union types are useful to support.)
MattJ
"max" is not valid for xs:integer
Holger
To support validation of complex types.
Ge0rG
if somebody had told Council back then, we'd probably have approved -1 instead of "max" or "∞"
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Holger
I just wouldn't have seen declaring the type to be "integer|'unlimited'" (or in other cases "integer|enum('one', 'two', 'three')") as a hack. Quite the opposite, I'd see limiting us to simple types as a hack to work around implementation problems.
pep.
Not everything goes into integers indeed. and having "max" is certainly more explicit than "-1" for clients or server devs
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MattJ
Holger: it's based on XEP-0122 so that validation constraints can be communicated to clients
Holger
Ah!
MattJ
So all I'm asking is that we use a proper defined type instead
pep.
So it's a spec limiting an implementation limiting another spec!
flow
we surely could extend xep122 to support those kind union form field type✎
Holger
pep.: Exactly.
flow
we surely could extend xep122 to support those kinds of union form field types ✏
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MattJ
I'd be totally happy to get behind that - and I see it being useful in other contexts too
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pep.
That does mean a lot more work..
MattJ
I'm also happy with xmpp:integer-with-max :)
MattJ
Whatever makes most sense to people
pep.
UsefulPubSubThings when? (hint: never!!)
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pep.
A well thought design is appealing, but the path leading to that is full of ambushes :p
pep.
Long and perilous
Zash
So we should just pile on hacks?
MattJ
pep.: yes, I know spec work is draining in this way :(
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pep.
Zash: isn't that what happens in practice most of the time
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Zash
Giving up and adding more hacks isn't going to help with that
pep.
I agree, but that needs work and dedication. I'm curious how projects like Movim and Sàt ever managed to make something useful out of pubsub without this tbh, or what I point out in https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-October/036503.html
MattJ
Me too
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pep.
I may not be entirely available for the board meeting. I'll be in transports in between things (missing a word.)
Ge0rG
I have two AOBs for Board.
Ge0rG
Or rather, Council has.
eta
pep., MattJ: I think movim just gets you to force max-items to something high
eta
in server config, that is
MattJ
We're also lacking a config option to ask the server to return an error when reaching the limit, rather than discarding older items
pep.
eta, yeah and that fails whenever an operator is not aware one of their users is using movim
pep.
And what MattJ says
pep.
(which I mentioned in my email last year)
eta
ah.
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pep.
Even though for the issue I mentioned just now, that's possibly another issue that goes alongside using servers that correspond to your use-case
pep.
(how to find them is something I want to tackle but -ENOTIME)
How do I define a datatype in a registrar definition? :/
pep.
I mean not just saying it exists
pep.
Taking example on https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0137.xml#registrar.xdata-validate, that includes a definition from the XEP itself, is that enough?
pep.
In https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0137.xml#usecase.xdata
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MattJ
Yeah, I guess the new type needs a XEP?
pep.
I'm not entirely sure this is the correct thing to do though, MattJ. You can apply a range to xs:integer for sure but how to you apply a range to <xs:simpleType><xs:union><xs:simpleType><xs:restriction base='nonNegativeInteger'/></xs:simpleType><xs:simpleType><xs:restriction base='string'><enumeration value='max'/></xs:restriction></xs:simpleType></xs:union></xs:simpletype>
pep.
What I had in mind at the beginning was to allow servers to send over their own type definition :x
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pep.
But that's madness
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Ge0rG
kinda like EXI?
MattJ
Agreed, madness :)
pep.
But then how do I solve the <range/> thing.
pep.
It's also not like it could be applied to a variant of our custom union type because there's no variant
pep.
And I can't define another derived integer type with custom range because every deployment is different :)
pep.
In this new XEP/modification to existing XEP I might be able to say "any <range/> thing applies to this integer value" but that's meh
MattJ
It's meh but I'm not sure I see another solution
pep.
Fortunately 122 says there can only be one <range/> within <validate/> (in the non-normative schema)
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pep.
another solution would be to go to the w3c with a revolutionary union type with variants! (not me plz)
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ralphmbangs gavel
ralphm
0. Welcome + Agenda
pep.
half-here
ralphm
Hi
Seve
👋
Seve
MattJ Guus
Guus
hi
Guus
sorry
MattJ
Oh, forgot it was Thursday
MattJ
o/
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ralphm
welcome all
ralphm
I've added an item from last meeting from Ge0rG
ralphm
And although my name wasn't mentioned thrice, it appeared that dwd had a suggestion for a topic from the Council meeting, too
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ralphm
Hope either of them is around.
Guus
I'd really like to receive agendas prior to the meeting, so that we can prepare. We've agreed on that, didn't we?
Ge0rG
ralphm: the Council asked to create a web page linking to the latest / emphasizing the latest and linking to all Compliance Suite(s)
ralphm
We did indeed. My apologies
Ge0rG
ralphm: and the second question from dwd was "what about the badges"
Ge0rG
(I'm paraphrasing here)
ralphm
ok
dwd
For board to consider: the discussion on the compliance suites.
ralphm
1. Minute taker
ralphm
I'll write up minutes later.
ralphm
2. IETF's use of Jabber
ralphm
This was an AOB item by Ge0rG last meeting.
ralphm
Ge0rG, what is this about?
Ge0rG
there was a thread on the IETF (users?) ML about how they are trying Slack as an IM alternative
Ge0rG
and in that thread, there were some opinions about XMPP that are based on ~15 years old facts
Ge0rG
so I wrote a nice mail to their xmpp admin, offering help with improving their xmpp infrastructure as well as their recommended clients
ralphm
Ah, I haven't seen that.
Ge0rG
the xmpp admin forwarded it to the IETF Executive Director
ralphm
Thanks for picking that up. Any response, yet?
Ge0rG
yes, we've had some communication, and the next step would be to set up a converse.js instance, help them a bit with ejabberd config and provide better client recommendations
Ge0rG
The ones on https://www.ietf.org/jabber/ are also ~15 years old
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Ge0rG
Do we have something solid we can recommend for the major platforms?
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Ge0rG
They also asked if we can offer commercial-grade service / hosting for them, but I declined
Ge0rG
we can hardly offer commercial-grade hosting for our own needs.
ralphm
You can, 'we' can't.
flow
but I think we have people who do offer commercial-grade hosting?
MattJ
The XSF obviously doesn't offer hosting, but I'm sure there are people who would be happy to provide such an offering
Ge0rG
ralphm: the original mail was signed by me and two other XSF members
ralphm
I.e. we, the XSF, vs you, people in the community.
Ge0rG
flow: those people need to stand up and volunteer then.
flow
wait volunteer?
flow
I assumed we where talking about commercial paid services
Ge0rG
flow: no
flow
ahh so commercial-grade without the commercial
Ge0rG
None of the people who contributed to the initial mail volunteered any infrastructure yet.
Ge0rG
flow: commercial-grade as opposed to commercial
MattJ
I'm assuming they don't just want a random XMPP community member running this
Guus
Ge0rG I suppose we can call for volunteers on a mailinglist?
Ge0rG
but maybe that was just a misunderstanding between me and the IETF folks
ralphm
MattJ, right, that makes sense
MattJ
There are a number of commercial entities around XMPP who I'm sure would be happy to sponsor a commercial-grade deployment for the IETF
ralphm
Do IETF also provide XMPP accounts, or just the groupchat service?
flow
wasn't the initial jabber setup of the ietf done by some random xmpp community member?
Guus
exactly my thought Matt
ralphm
I seem to remember we did the latter long, long, long time ago.
Guus
this all is exciting, and I applaud the people involved to have picked this up - but how is this a board issue?
Ge0rG
ralphm: they are only hosting the MUC server and intend to keep doing so.
Ge0rG
ralphm: aka. they don't want to host user accounts themselves
Ge0rG
but they'd probably be grateful to have a recommended server with IBR and good stability
Ge0rG
or a small list of recommended servers
ralphm
Guus: the question might be, besides running muc.xmpp.org, do you also want to run muc.ietf.org, as an XSF effort. This would surely need to pass board.
flow
Ahh, that MUC-only requirement may lower the bar to provide the service for free
Ge0rG
I'd offer mine, but it lacks both in stability and in bus factor
Ge0rG
ralphm: I don't think they want to change hosting for their MUC component.
ralphm
ok
Ge0rG
I'm pretty sure we can put up a Holger to review their configuration and to add / fine-tune the modules needed for MAM and all the other fancy stuff, though
ralphm
Sure
Ge0rG
Then we also need to make a list of recommended clients
Ge0rG
And then we need to set up a converse.js instance with a nice fancy web front listing all their MUCs
pep.
Ge0rG: 'we'? we can hardly get a client list up on our website :)
ralphm
I'm reluctant to provide a recommendation on behalf of the XSF.
Ge0rG
Any other volunteers?
ralphm
But I know there are people in this discussion with opinions, that'd be perfectly fine to be voiced.
ralphm
Outside of their capacity within the XSF.
Ge0rG
the last mail from the IETF came on Sept 8th, and I failed to respond so far.
Ge0rG
ralphm: I don't want to make it political, I want to help in pragmatic and useful ways
ralphm
Indeed.
Guus
I do not see an issue with individuals making recommendations, even if those individuals have XSF associations.
ralphm
I very much like us to help the IETF, don't get me wrong.
Ge0rG
ralphm: 'us'?
ralphm
Just that given the recent discussion, it cannot be an XSF recommendation.
Ge0rG
I'm perfectly fine with signing that recommendation with my name only.
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Ge0rG
But I still need help preparing it, see above.
MattJ
I'm happy to recommend some clients
ralphm
See :-D
Ge0rG
Also I'm going on vacation in some days and my capacity to prepare something will go from ~0 to ~-10
Ge0rG
MattJ: yes, ripping your client recommendation list came to my mind
Guus
10 minutes left. Does this need furhter board action?
MattJ
The new one in Prosody? That's less of a recommendation list and more a list of clients that came to mind, but yeah
Ge0rG
MattJ: maybe in terms of a diff to https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/jabber/ ;)
Ge0rG
Guus: no, that was FYI
ralphm
Guus: I think can move the remainder of this discussion outside of the meeting.
ralphm
Thanks for noting this Ge0rG!
Ge0rG
unless the Board wants to get all political and provide actual help, of course
ralphm
3. Compliancy Suites
Ge0rG
Council is preparing a new Compliance Suite for 2021, and thus Dave was so kind to make a public inquiry on standards@ about their usefulness.
Ge0rG
The feedback was mainly:
- we need badges to make CS more useful
- the XEP process is horrible, we need just a webpage
Ge0rG
But a new webpage would require New Council Process as well as New Webteam Process, I've decided to stick to the old process so far.
Ge0rG
I with my CS author hat, that is.
Guus
Why do we need processes to get a page added / modified on the website?
Ge0rG
Nevertheless, it would be Awesome:tm: to have Somebody Else:tm: create a page on our website that would be linked prominently and link to the current CS
ralphm
I've failed to get in contact with the person who initially offered to do the design of the badges. At this point, I'd have whoever volunteers just create *something*.
Ge0rG
Guus: up to now the Council has defined what belongs into CS. Of course we can delegate that to the Webteam
ralphm
As for the website, please collaborate with the comms team.
Isn't the website merely a reflection of what's in the most up-to-date CS?
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ralphm
Ge0rG: hooray!
Ge0rG
Guus: it would suffice to have a page on the website that explains CS (copy&paste from the CS intro!) and links to the document du jour
Guus
If we can avoid changing or adding any processes, and just have a page that reflects that... that'd be ... good?
Ge0rG
Guus: a paragraph, a bold link to current year, a list with links to previous editions
pep.
> The feedback was mainly:
> - we need badges to make CS more useful
> - the XEP process is horrible, we need just a webpage
Is that really the only feedback? You (council) discarded the part where some said they're not so useful as is?
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Ge0rG
Guus: and a place in the website where it should be
ralphm
I'd indeed just create a PR and have someone in comms +1 it
Guus
all fine by me - but more of a commsteam issue than board?
Ge0rG
Guus: somebody needs to do it
Guus
sure, but that's not neccesarily a board member? :_)
Ge0rG
Guus: I hoped Board can direct some resources at it.
Guus
I don't think so, as board depends on volunteers.
Guus
unless you propose hiring someone or somesuch
Seve
I'm very busy at the moment but I will try to tackle that Ge0rG
Ge0rG
> I've failed to get in contact with the person who initially offered to do the design
does that mean you tried and they didn't respond or that you had no chance to try?
Ge0rG
Seve: cool, thanks!
Seve
I'm also in comms so.. ;)))
ralphm
Ge0rG, I tried and they didn't respond
ralphm
(several times)
Ge0rG
ralphm: cool, thanks for that!
Ge0rG
there was significant bike-shedding of the design a year ago or two, and an alternative design by theTedd.
ralphm
Thanks, Seve
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Ge0rG
So I have mixed feelings about just pushing through with mine, as it's clearly not perfect
ralphm
Ge0rG, let's just have something, and then go from there.
Guus
+1
Ge0rG
But OTOH, I could just PR it on shields.io and be done
ralphm
If somebody then steps up with: "hey, I fixed your fugly graphix, here's the PR", then yay
Guus
I'm applauding all of your efforts, Ge0rG - unsure if your due dilligence by running it past board adds unneeded delays though.
ralphm
ok
ralphm
4. AOB
Seve
I would like for next meeting to discuss this https://trello.com/c/GHGXcYuq/405-how-should-we-approach-txxmpps-pr
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pep.
I had a quick look and I don't see the issue. happy to take that to next meeting
Seve
It has been there for a while already and would like to close the issue
Seve
(No more AOB here)
ralphm
Ok
ralphm
5. Date of Next
ralphm
+1W
ralphm
6. Close
ralphm
Thanks all
Guus
Thanks!
ralphmbangs gavel
Seve
Thank you everyone 🙂
pep.
thanks
Ge0rG
is it me or is git.gnupg.org down?
Ge0rG
MattJ: so, do you volunteer to make a useful modern client list?
MattJ
On the page you linked: s/Pidgin/Gajim/;s/Adium/Beagle IM/
MattJ
I'll let you make the call for Android :)
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Ge0rG
yeah, it's obviously s/Yaxim/yaxim/
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MattJ
Pidgin and Adium are borderline unmaintained right now (I know they have hope to revive Pidgin's XMPP support Soon™, but I'm not holding my breath, and Adium basically has no developers at all)
Ge0rG
MattJ: I am aware of that, but is Beagle a good modern desktop client?
Ge0rG
What about Swift.IM and Dino?
Ge0rG
Monal desktop probably isn't there yet
MattJ
Dino isn't officially packaged for Windows, and... I think it doesn't support MAM in MUCs yet (?)
Zash
MattJ: Accurate afaik
Ge0rG
MattJ: did you test BeagleIM on mac?
MattJ
and I haven't been following Swift recently, but pretty sure it's even further behind on that kind of thing
MattJ
No, I haven't
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MattJ
That would require dusting off my Mac, which I do need to do at some point
Ge0rG
so there is no reliable recommendation for macOS?
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MattJ
Beagle is using the same underlying code as Siskin, I don't have a problem with recommending it
Andrzej
the question is what moden client is?
MattJ
Not Adium
Andrzej
Beagle has the same set of features as Siskin and is based on the same library
Ge0rG
Andrzej: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0423.html would be a good start :D
MattJ
If it supports MUC, HTTP upload, and MAM, we're pretty good I think
Ge0rG
MAM and Carbons
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Andrzej
it has MUC, MAM:2, HTTP File Upload, VoIP (jingle/JMI), Carbons, MIX, Message retraction, last message correction, etc
Zash
And MAM in MUC?
Andrzej
it is available since latest release
Ge0rG
Andrzej: that's great!
Andrzej
VCardTemp, VCard4, PEP based avatars, stream management, XEP-0184, chat states (partially), user blocking,
Andrzej
I would say it almost matches CS2020 as it is missing Jingle File Transfer and `/me` command
Ge0rG
WHAT? NO /me?!?!
Zash
THE MOST IMPORTANT XEP OF ALL!!!11!!!1
Ge0rGis disappointed
Seve
Hah
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Zash
Someone actually told me once that XMPP wasn't acceptable because of a client that didn't do /me
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Andrzej
I do not fell that I'm missing something due to lack of `/me` but someone would report that as a feature maybe it could be added✎
Andrzej
I do not fell that I'm missing something due to lack of `/me` but if someone would report that as a feature maybe it could be added ✏
Ge0rG
Technically, it's `/me `
Zash
Weird semantics-shoehorned-into-<body> thing, but it's one of those small details.
pep.
Zash: may I remind you a sentence of yours this day :p
Zash
?
pep.
“Giving up and adding more hacks isn't going to help with that”
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Zash
Well-established hack dating back to IRC behavior.
Zash
If you come up with a way to do this in a more XMPP-ish way, I'm all ears. Or eyes.
Ge0rG
Zash: technically, the wire-format is not from IRC. The XMPP variation added a hack on top of XMPP
Zash
message { is-action body "is doing stuff" }
mdoschlikes /me
Zash
Ge0rG: Why I said "behavior", not protocol. :)
mdosch
> mdosch likes /me
But not when someone is quoting it as you don't know anymore who is /me
well the good thing about stuffing everything in body is that clients don't need support!
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Ge0rG
is Siskin in a usable state for end users?
Ge0rG
I had to give away my iPhone recently
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Andrzej
I would say "yes", but it depends on what you expect from the app, used server, etc.
MattJ
I would say "no", but that also applies to most software I use and write every day... :)
Ge0rG
Andrzej: a client where a technically competent person can set up an account and join a MUC without jumping through burning hoops or running into dead ends (failure without error messages etc)
MattJ
I haven't tried the latest release yet, but I think all the issues I could find are reported as fixed
Ge0rG
cool
Andrzej
MattJ, yes they are fixed
Andrzej
and some parts of the UI are simpler now
Ge0rG
is it reasonable to list Dino as a Linux client?
MattJ
Nice
MattJ
Ge0rG, I worry about it not supporting MUC MAM
Ge0rG
MattJ: yaxim doesn't either. MUC history seemed good enough for me
MattJ
In a MUC-focused deployment, that will be a weird cause of confusion if Dino users only see some of the history
Ge0rG
Also the interaction between MAM and joining a room is bad.
Ge0rG
whoever invented that...
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theTeddis currently working on *something* re: badges (we can always fiddle with the design) and compliance suites (current, history, future directions)
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Ge0rG
theTedd: that's exciting!
theTedd
also, Ge0rG, I had some suggestions for CS (actually from last time, but I didn't want to interrupt the process) - let me know whenever you're mentally prepared 😉
Ge0rG
theTedd: I totally loved your badge generator workflow, maybe you can make it work out of DOAP?
Ge0rG
theTedd: just pile them on https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/980
theTedd
I have considered that, in addition to just dumping a text list of xeps
Ge0rG
theTedd: I'm currently mentally not able to do useful discussion, but feel free nevertheless
theTedd
that's what I presumed; it's more ideas/discussion than PR suitable
Ge0rG
and re badges, I thought about putting the level and year on the RHS of the badge, something like [Mobile Client: 2020 Core] with colorcoding of advanced>core and 2020>2019>...
Ge0rG
</bikeshed>
theTedd
I will be doing colours by year (shades of green through orange and red)
theTedd
related question: is there anything for a client to actually implement for XEP-0411 (Bookmarks Conversion) ?
Zash
If it has code to do bookmarks conversion itself, disable that if it sees the feature.
theTedd
I was wondering whether it makes sense to have it as a requirement in the CS for clients (it currently is for IM Advanced)
Ge0rG
theTedd: yes, because both legacy bookmark formats are mandatory for Advanced IM Client
Ge0rG
so if you have a server that does 0411, you'll end up with duplicate bookmarks
theTedd
right, okay
theTedd
in other news:this muc kicks me if I join from jabber.org (which may be justified)
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mdosch
You can't join or you get kicked?
theTedd
it joins, sync, and is then immediately kicked with "Kicked: jid malformed" (errors 333 and 110)
theTedd
I'm assuming it's actually a S2S issue
pep.
your client sending an error to the muc?
mdosch
But yeah, jabber.org is difficult. My s2s to it is broken for a long time. First we didn't share a cipher, now I can't validate the cert and it relies on dialback which is diabled here.
Zash
A 199 ping from jabber.org to muc.xmpp.org seems to get there and back just fine
Ge0rG
theTedd: sounds like one of the nicknames here causes jabber.org to freak out
Ge0rG
I blame Rixon 👁🗨
Ge0rG
You receive initial presence, your server dislikes it and bounces the stanza, you get kicked
Zash
This can be from the Prosody MUC code if your nickname does not satisfy resourceprep in "strict mode"
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Zash
... or maybe not
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theTedd
joining jdev and council worked, so yeah it's probably a nick
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Zash
Mmm, yeah, looks like Rixon 👁🗨
Zash
Oh wait, the "strict mode" thing isn't in a release, so never mind.
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eta
MattJ: lack of MUC MAM is definitely an issue
eta
Ge0rG: you just don't notice it on yaxim because your phone is nearly always on
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Ge0rG
eta: that's true. Also I've configured my rooms to keep 500 messages and to return 50 by default
Ge0rG
and yaxim will poll for history since the last message's timestamp. That's absolutely not prone to race conditions!