XSF Discussion - 2020-09-20


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  38. Ge0rG Also something about backward compatibility and changing unicode versions
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  55. lovetox but is precis not better equiped to deal with changing unicode versions?
  56. lovetox i read precis defines what code points are valid, while stringprep defines what code points are illegal
  57. lovetox so whats legal changes with each unicode version in stringprep
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  103. jonas’ lovetox, no, stringprep is pinned to unicode 3.2, so that’s no big deal
  104. lovetox ah ok
  105. lovetox didnt know that
  106. jonas’ lovetox, PRECIS on the other hand is not pinned to any unicode version, has no logic to deal with differing versions and thus PRECIS on Unicode X.Y may easily produce/validate strings which are not allowed with PRECIS Unicode X'.Y' for X' != X
  107. jonas’ stringprep being pinned to 3.2 is why we cannot have robotface ;)
  108. lovetox sure? when precis defines whats legal instead of whats illegal
  109. lovetox it does not matter what unicode version
  110. jonas’ it defines it in terms of unicode categories
  111. lovetox if we assume that new unicode versions only add codepoints
  112. jonas’ yes
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  114. jonas’ if you run PRECIS on 3.2, it will reject strings PRECIS on 9.0 allows
  115. jonas’ and updating unicode versions in an app is even harder than updating TLS, I’m afraid
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  147. flow could be as easy as "apt-get install unicode-data"
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  152. lovetox as i understand the problem is not some unicode libraray
  153. lovetox as i understand the problem is not some unicode library, or a dependency
  154. lovetox its simply that in the standard sometimes things change
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  160. flow the standard changes because with newer unicode versions codepoints that where previously unassigned become assigned
  161. lovetox yes, but thats not the only way it changes, and thats not the problem with precis
  162. flow I am not aware of other ways
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  168. lovetox Changes to the properties of Unicode code points can occur as the Unicode Standard is modified from time to time. For example, three code points underwent changes in their GeneralCategory between Unicode 5.2 (current at the time IDNA2008 was originally published) and Unicode 6.0, as described in [RFC6452]
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  170. lovetox new unicode versions are not just adding stuff on top, sometimes existing stuff changes
  171. lovetox or at least there is no guarante that existing stuff does not change by the unicode consortium or whoever decides the stuff
  172. flow true, and that could mean that a string that was previously valid as JID part becomes invalid
  173. flow I am not sure how frequent that is
  174. flow What usually happens is that a string that was previously invalid as JID part becomes valid
  175. lovetox yes, also im not sure if this is really something that should hold us back
  176. lovetox we are not designing something for eternety here
  177. flow I'd expect Unicode tries to prevent re-assigning codepoints whenever possible, for obvious reasons, and only does so if it is decided that the advantages of the re-assignment outweigh the disadvantages
  178. flow I'd expect that Unicode tries to prevent re-assigning codepoints whenever possible, for obvious reasons, and only does so if it is decided that the advantages of the re-assignment outweigh the disadvantages
  179. lovetox also i think adding new codepoints is not a problem for precis, as its already defined on classes
  180. lovetox and there will likely be no new classes
  181. lovetox what is a problem are for example mapping rules
  182. mdosch👁🗨 > Future version of Prosody won't allow 👁🗨 or robot face in nicknames, thus solving that problem. Seems it's not yet in trunk.
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  184. lovetox which can’t be set in stone without knowing all future codepoints
  185. mdosch /can't change his nick back.
  186. mdosch can't change his nick back.
  187. flow right, but it means that apps should use the system unicode database, e.g. via pythons unicodedata library that IIRC uses /usr/share/unicode as source
  188. mdosch Ah, it worked.
  189. lovetox i think its very unlikely with precis that something that was valid becomes invalid
  190. lovetox hence i dont see why not use precis
  191. lovetox yes servers and appilication need a recent unicode version
  192. flow yeah, it also does not concern me much, and there is nothing you can do about it
  193. lovetox but they need also X other recent librarys
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  202. Zash mdosch: It's the MUC that enforces it, and this channel isn't on trunk.
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  257. Ge0rG The real problem isn't which version to check against but who's responsible for the check at which border. If the check is only performed by the server owning any given JID, no problems will arise.
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  259. Ge0rG If you enforce precis on another server's JIDs, you'll end up kicking people because of mdosch👁🗨 in your MUC
  260. Zash Hence being strict on creation of users, chat rooms, MUC nicknames.
  261. Ge0rG We could solve the problem by requiring a baseline set that's forward compatible, like no " in JIDs, and leave everything extended unicode to the authoritative server
  262. Ge0rG But I want 🤖
  263. Zash AFAIK the problem is mostly about unassigned codepoints, where you don't know if it's valid or forbidden.
  264. Zash So someone on Unicode 3.2 doesn't know whether 🤖 is valid or not, so it'll end up allowing it in JIDs received by others, while forbidding local things from using it.
  265. Ge0rG Zash: allowed from remote servers, forbidden on yours
  266. Zash Exactly
  267. Ge0rG And then your admin can install unicode 11
  268. Ge0rG And allow fancy new names
  269. Zash I wonder if Someone™ should write an Informational XEP on this whole mess.
  270. Ge0rG Zash: you should
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  284. lovetox why do we need to write a XEP
  285. lovetox either all should use precis or all should use stringprep
  286. Zash That's not what reality looks like
  287. lovetox finished, the details that there is one codepoint in a million that from unicode version X to Y changed
  288. lovetox really, thats only a problem in some people minds
  289. Zash I'm not that worried about Unicode redefining characters between versions.
  290. Zash But versions add new characters, which moves code points from Undefined to either Allowed or Forbidden (for each JID part)
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  292. lovetox Zash i dont think thats how it works
  293. Zash Ok.
  294. Zash I revert to my earlier statement of not wanting to discuss this.
  295. lovetox but even if, whats the problem with that
  296. lovetox say an unassigned codepoint is moved to valid
  297. lovetox your server simply does not accept it because you are on a older unicode version
  298. lovetox there is no problem there
  299. lovetox its like jabber.org does not allow connection with another server because it is weird and runs not current software or is misconfigured
  300. lovetox the solution is not, to find a standard where this can never ever happen
  301. lovetox its server need to upgrade from time to time
  302. lovetox and it happens that we do this already
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  310. Zash Oh look, it's been a year https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/xmpp/a-WhzOTyOq168GujQHgzQ1-DURI/
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  317. lovetox yeah i really dont know what the problem here is
  318. lovetox its like, a server comes along that supports only TLS 1.3, but the other server does not yet support TLS 1.3
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  323. lovetox and the question answer is probably b)
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  326. lovetox server should validate jids
  327. lovetox this means sending errors if the validation fails
  328. Zash That's what jabber.org does, which was the problem highlighted earlier.
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  333. Zash ^ happens
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  335. Zash For those who don't have joins & parts shown: ---> jabberdotorguser joined the room <--- jabberdotorguser has left the room due to an error (Kicked: jid malformed)
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  366. Ge0rG lovetox: enforcing validation on entities outside of the user's control is going to cause pain. This is what it's all about
  367. Ge0rG Which is why "allowed" and "forbidden" are too few decision choices
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  389. lovetox about what pain are you talking?
  390. lovetox informing the user he cant join this channel because the jid is not valid
  391. lovetox is not pain in my book
  392. lovetox its a 5 second thing to change the nick to something else
  393. Zash They can't change *someone elses nickname*
  394. lovetox ?! the user cant change his nickname?!
  395. lovetox and yes also the MUC can change his nick, its in 0045
  396. lovetox simply remove the offending chars
  397. Zash You still misunderstand.
  398. Zash This is not about the one that is joining a MUC
  399. Zash This is about someone else that is already a participant.
  400. Zash When the MUC sends the participant list, their server rejects that stanza and the MUC responds to that error by kicking YOU.
  401. lovetox yeah and ? as a client a validate JIDs, and of course simply drop all invalid
  402. lovetox you can fill a whole MUC with invalid participants, not a problem in my book
  403. lovetox but even that should not happen
  404. Zash But it does.
  405. lovetox So i cant connect to servers, if mine is outdated and uses old unicode data
  406. Zash Get a jabber.org account, join this MUC, get kicked the instant the presence of the participant with "👁🗨" in their nick is sent.
  407. lovetox its the same, right now, i cant even connect to must mucs because my cert is expired
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  410. Ge0rG lovetox: but you can't change a remote server and which level of unicode that accepts.
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  412. Ge0rG Also the unicode level supported by a server is neither indicated nor negotiated
  413. Ge0rG Instead your connection gets terminated later on due to somebody else sending presence
  414. Ge0rG And just moving on with the latest and greatest unicode will break your interop
  415. Ge0rG In all sorts of non obvious ways
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  418. Ge0rG it's like showing an annoying popup every time you receive something from an "invalid" JID :D
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  421. eevvoor > Get a jabber.org account, join this MUC, get kicked the instant the presence of the participant with "👁🗨" in their nick is sent. What a joy.
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  423. lovetox Ge0rG, i still dont see the "pain", all that stuff is dependent on how often this happens
  424. lovetox and i would say it does probably happens as often as you want to use a muc on a server like jabber.org
  425. lovetox you try it, ok server doesnt work, is outdated, whatever, then you simply dont use it anymore
  426. Ge0rG lovetox: some implementations don't switch from stringprep to precis because of this sort of issues that it would cause.
  427. Ge0rG yeah, let's just abandon large parts of our ecosystem
  428. larma notes how this would be solved by not using the resource part of the JID for the nickname and instead use something like 172 and random resource for joining (like Jitsi Meet does)
  429. lovetox but stringprep causes the same issues
  430. Ge0rG larma: how do you prvent everyone from using the same nickname with 0172?
  431. lovetox stringprep is obsoleted, no new client would implement it, there is no note that says: Hold up please implement stringprep
  432. lovetox if a client uses precis, and the server validates for stringprep
  433. lovetox you have the same issue already, now
  434. larma Ge0rG, either not allow it server side (filter stanzas that do try to mimic another user) or use 0421 to spot the different users
  435. Ge0rG lovetox: yes, and I bet most clients won't even tell the user what the problem is
  436. eevvoor yeay, just like my problem persists with trashserver <-> jabber.fr
  437. lovetox so you acknowledge that the problem is already here right now, and *not* changing to precis
  438. lovetox does not make anything better
  439. Ge0rG lovetox: the problem is there because some implementations changed to precis, yes.
  440. Ge0rG lovetox: what you ask for is called a "forklift upgrade" and is not going to work.
  441. lovetox it already works
  442. lovetox users use precis day in and out
  443. lovetox this is a drop in the bucket of s2s problems out there
  444. lovetox you make it seem like the whole xmpp ecosystem breaks down, because people cant join mucs anymore
  445. Ge0rG it's also about contacts with JIDs according to a different spec
  446. larma IMO clients should never try to join using a unicode resource, but servers still need to handle it. Yet every client that allows to do it should be named as the main issue
  447. larma (which means about every client nowadays is to blame)
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  449. lovetox ok larma interesting take, no client should allow a user to use a valid JID as per RFC.
  450. larma the weird thing is that resource is meant to be something "technical" yet it's also used as a display name
  451. lovetox i guess you wont win that one
  452. Ge0rG larma: what about that clients should only warn the user when they try to set a nickname that is outside of the client's supported PRECIS, but the servers have ultimate authority?
  453. Ge0rG congratulations for finding out that MUC is a set of dirty hacks.
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  455. 🅶🅴0🆁🅶 hi!
  456. larma so let's add some other dirty hack to solve that problem? Clients somehow encode unicode chars using ascii as a resource and add a 0172 nick. Clients that see that the 0172 nick matches the ascii encoding will display and use the 0172 nick instead
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  458. larma As long as the ascii encoding is somewhat human readable, this would be sufficiently backwards compatible
  459. larma then we would need MUCs to not allow joining with non-ascii resources and issue is mostly solved
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  463. mdosch Forbidding non ASCII is bad for Russians, Arabs, Vietnamese, Thai…
  464. 🅶🅴0🆁🅶 also for emoji
  465. larma mdosch, it's not forbidden, you can still read it in the 0172 nick field
  466. larma just like domains don't forbid non ascii, you just need to encode using punycode
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  468. 🅶🅴0🆁🅶 what about encoding punycode nicknames in the resource?
  469. larma also fine with me, but I believe there could be better legacy fallbacks than punycode
  470. 🅶🅴0🆁🅶 like... PRECIS?
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  477. Zash Went for a walk. TL;DR let's solve the problem of not everyone upgrading at the exact same time with "just upgrade at the same time"? :)
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  480. lovetox its not a matter of upgrading at a certain point in my opinion
  481. lovetox right now prosody does not do jid validation at all or?
  482. lovetox that means it already is a upgraded precis like server, it does exactly what Ge0rG fears, it sends precis muc resources to other servers that dont understand it
  483. Zash It does, but it allows unassigned characters.
  484. Zash Mostly because this is the library default
  485. lovetox yeah, so nobody cared, the ecosystem did not break down
  486. Zash No PRECIS
  487. 🅶🅴0🆁🅶 Somebody needs to care about the small things as well
  488. lovetox you allowed resources that were not stringprep valid
  489. lovetox and send them to other servers and clients
  490. Zash This goes under "historical reasons" now
  491. Zash The plan is to change it to be strict about things created locally.
  492. lovetox and in all the years i never saw one issue, of clients or server operators
  493. 🅶🅴0🆁🅶 yeah, let's just pin XMPP to stringprep and carve that in stone
  494. lovetox that complained that users cant join your MUCs
  495. 🅶🅴0🆁🅶 Zash: strict according to what spec?
  496. Zash This /did/ happen, for years, if you compiled your Prosody differently
  497. Zash 🅶🅴0🆁🅶: Ancient STRINGPREP
  498. 🅶🅴0🆁🅶 Zash: did I get this right, you want to make prosody strict according to stringprep?
  499. Zash Yes
  500. 🅶🅴0🆁🅶 Insanity!
  501. Zash No
  502. 🅶🅴0🆁🅶 But why?
  503. Zash I'm running a version with this enabled and I'm having no problems.
  504. Zash You just can't use 🤖 as nickname on my local MUC instance
  505. 🅶🅴0🆁🅶 do you even have a MUC domain?
  506. Zash It's strict about *local entities*
  507. 🅶🅴0🆁🅶 I want my robot face back!
  508. Zash Local users, local MUC JIDs, local MUC participant nicknames.
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  510. Zash Anything coming from a remote server and isn't known to be invalid is accepted.
  511. 🗨 Zash: yes, but then you release it and everybody goes back into 2002
  512. 🗨 I know there are people who wish for xmpp to be like it was in 2002.
  513. Zash ITYM 2006*
  514. lovetox seems ejabberd does validate strictly for stringprep
  515. lovetox cant join any muc with robotface
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  517. 🗨 Zash: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3454 "December 2002"
  518. lovetox although it does with a weird error
  519. Zash 🤷
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  522. lovetox bad-request
  523. lovetox instead of jid-malformed
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  526. lovetox maybe the XMPP needs its own Precis profile
  527. lovetox that is in some way a better upgrade path
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  529. lovetox for mucs the discovery problem is easily solved
  530. lovetox just add a feature into disco info
  531. Zash This topic causes me endless pain, I'll be under my desk, crying, for the rest of the weekend.
  532. lovetox only in our heads, i dont think there are actual users having problems with that
  533. mdosch is watching 🏒 rolls some beers under Zаshs desk.
  534. lovetox i guess there is not even someone out there that gets the idea that weird emojis are allowed in jids
  535. 🗨 has left
  536. Ge0rG I do
  537. Ge0rG and other people as well
  538. mdosch is watching 🏒 Ask Rixon 👁🗨:
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  540. Ge0rG as you can see on the occupant list. Unless your client filters out "invalid" JIDs from MUCs
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  544. mdosch is watching 🏒 I wonder why Rixon 👁🗨 never participated in this discussion although being highlighted frequently in the last days.
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  562. Ge0rG mdosch: maybe their client fails to highlight on complex unicode? 😁
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  693. Neustradamus I will do a little test for MattJ
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  696. Neustradamus ^ connection and disconnection in less 1s
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  715. sss Hey anyone here
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  717. sss heyy
  718. sss hey sony
  719. sss andrey.g andrey.g \
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