XSF Discussion - 2020-09-24


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  222. pep. https://runyourown.social
  223. pep. β€œHow to run a small social network site for your friends”
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  294. pep. Does pubsub allow a node to be marked/tagged/namespaced to say "here that's the kind of content you'll find and how you're supposed to handle it", or is it just a non-namespaced name?
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  298. pep. pubsub#type ? :/
  299. pep. (node configuration)
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  301. pep. unrelated, is it possible to have xmpp: NSs that actually point to the document?
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  324. ralphm bangs gavel
  325. ralphm 0. Welcome + Agenda
  326. pep. !
  327. ralphm Hi!
  328. ralphm I just sent the agenda, but it seems stuck somewhere.
  329. ralphm 0) Welcome 1) Minute taker 2) txxmpp client on client list? 3) Elections 4) AOB 5) Date of Next 6) Close
  330. ralphm MattJ, Guus, Seve?
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  333. Seve says hello!
  334. MattJ Hey
  335. guus.der.kinderen o/
  336. ralphm 1. Minute taker
  337. pep. I'll do it
  338. ralphm Thanks pep.
  339. ralphm 2. txxmpp client
  340. ralphm From what I understand, this is a command line tool, rather than an interactive chat client.
  341. Seve Corect
  342. Seve Correct
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  344. ralphm I don't particularly see a problem with adding this, if the description just notes this point.
  345. guus.der.kinderen Is this a matter for board?
  346. pep. I also don't see any issue with that
  347. pep. I don't think so
  348. ralphm guus.der.kinderen, good question, probably not
  349. guus.der.kinderen We don't show descriptions of clients on the site, by the way
  350. pep. Even better :)
  351. ralphm I mean on the page linked
  352. Seve Guus well, it is an open PR I would like to close and I believe applying my only opinion is not fair. Because I would not have accepted the PR at this moment, because I personally feel it does not fit there.
  353. guus.der.kinderen I'm with you on that Seve,
  354. pep. Seve, what do you think fits there then?
  355. guus.der.kinderen The page linked is source code
  356. guus.der.kinderen there's no documentation.
  357. guus.der.kinderen I'd stick it with 'libraries'rather then 'clients' to not confuse 99% of the people on our website looking at that list
  358. pep. Is all this stuff referenced somewhere in our criteria? (do we have any public criteria?)
  359. guus.der.kinderen but to be honest, I don't care much either way
  360. guus.der.kinderen No, we do not.
  361. guus.der.kinderen although...
  362. pep. Well then it probably fits into no criteria
  363. guus.der.kinderen there's a bit of documentation in the stuff that processes the data files, I think.
  364. guus.der.kinderen anyway, let's not make a big deal out of this
  365. pep. sure
  366. guus.der.kinderen Happy to see webteam move forward on this how they see fit.
  367. ralphm +1
  368. guus.der.kinderen I'd stick it with libraries, but no-one made me king of anything.
  369. Seve Alright then
  370. pep. We should really get rid of these lists someday..
  371. pep. Anyway..
  372. ralphm To replace it with something else?
  373. pep. nothing
  374. pep. Not on xmpp.org at least
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  376. ralphm Well, ok. That might be an interesting topic some other time, venue.
  377. pep. Yep
  378. ralphm 3. Elections
  379. ralphm As you've seen Alex has put out the call for our upcoming Board and Council elections.
  380. ralphm Submission deadline is November 8.
  381. ralphm Please consider who you'd like to ping to serve on Board and/or if you want to stand (again) yourself.
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  383. ralphm I don't have anything further on this myself.
  384. ralphm 4. AOB
  385. ralphm Any OB?
  386. Seve None here πŸ™‚
  387. pep. None from me
  388. lorddavidiii has joined
  389. guus.der.kinderen neither
  390. guus.der.kinderen maybe we can review some feedback/backburner topics next meeting?
  391. MattJ None here
  392. guus.der.kinderen in an effort to clean up the plate a bit
  393. ralphm Yeah, I already did a bit of clean up, but there's more that may be so obsolete that it can be removed.
  394. ralphm If you all could have a look at Trello, that'd be great. I'll add an agenda item for this
  395. ralphm 6. Date of Next
  396. ralphm +1W
  397. ralphm 7. Close
  398. ralphm Thanks all!
  399. MattJ Thanks!
  400. guus.der.kinderen Cheers
  401. ralphm bangs gavel
  402. Seve Super πŸ™‚
  403. pep. Thanks
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  410. pep. jonas’, vanitasvitae, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0277.html#location there's already some escaping in URIs being done here btw
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  412. lovetox pep., "Outside of native XMPP systems"
  413. lovetox of course you have to escape urls if you want them to be used by other applications
  414. pep. Is that an issue?
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  416. lovetox if you have not allowed chars in your uri you have to escape them
  417. lovetox it does not matter if it happens in the context of xmpp or whatever
  418. lovetox otherwise its not a valid uri
  419. lovetox i dont see how this has anything to do with the question if you are allowed to put an escaped uri into a node attribute
  420. pep. I don't think we're talking about the same thing
  421. pep. are we
  422. pep. I'm talking about this: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/983 and council's comments
  423. pep. Unrelated, I regret 0277 doesn't specify pubsub#type to be set to 'urn:xmpp:microblog:0' when not in PEP.. Any reason why? miss?
  424. pep. β€œA person's microblog SHOULD be located at a personal eventing (PEP) node named "urn:xmpp:microblog:0" but MAY be located at a generic publish-subscribe node that is not attached to a user's IM account.”
  425. pep. Would it make sense to change it now? :/
  426. pep. TIL microblog is not even Draft
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  432. flow pep., sounds sensible to recommend that pubsub#type is set
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  434. flow or even require that. but I don't want to get into "recommend it" vs "require it" discussion right nwo
  435. flow or even require that. but I don't want to get into "recommend it" vs "require it" discussion right now
  436. pep. I'd also require it, but I think I'm not gonna like what that implies to change in the document
  437. flow point is, recommending something that is sensible makes always sense, no matter the XEP state
  438. flow what does it imply? and what do you not like?
  439. pep. Well, recommending it would be better than rn, but still quite useless because it's not something I can use to detect 277 nodes in bare PubSub
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  441. pep. So I'd rather require it.
  442. pep. Now..
  443. pep. Requiring it certainly means breaking change
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  446. flow make a PR and put it on council's plate :)
  447. pep. heh
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  449. pep. Do we have stats of what client is implementing microblog? Movim, SΓ t, anybody else? What about libraries?
  450. pep. Link Mauve, any idea? (with the DOAP stuff you've been playing)
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  453. pep. I'd also recommend using atom:generator in 277 maybe
  454. pep. Even though just using pubsub#type is already a step up
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  462. pep. https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/986 !
  463. Zash Hm, searching for `pubsub#type` yields mostly examples and a changelog entry about clarifying the field.
  464. pep. Yeah I've seen that :/
  465. pep. "clarifying", always the same word. Though tbh it's still as loose
  466. pep. "payload type" doesn't mean much
  467. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#registrar-formtypes-config has the longest description I could find
  468. Zash > The type of node data, usually specified by the namespace of the payload (if any)
  469. pep. Ok, so that looks appropriate
  470. pep. There are two example that have "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" as value, but that's quite handwavy to me tbh
  471. pep. "Yeah it's atom, do whatever you want however you want"
  472. pep. Which is not exactly what 0277 is
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  474. pep. And even if it were "just atom on pubsub", there's no possibility of evolution when done this way (when pubsub#type is set to Atom)
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  497. pep. Where would it make sense to add an "Integration with Data Forms" section in 0060? Similar to https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0137.html#usecase.xdata
  498. pep. I'm thinking somewhere in Β§12 or before or after
  499. pep. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#impl
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  546. pep. How do I link from a XEP to an anchor in another XEP?
  547. pep. Just a normal html link?
  548. pep. I mean, <link/> with a normal html url?
  549. pep. xep-1234.html#foo ?
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  554. emus On todays meeting: ralphm pep. guus.der.kinderen Seve Even you don't see your responsibility there (but I support Seve asking for opinion, because I also couldn't evaluate myself): You all would likely put txxmpp into the library list than client? Or do you not care to put it into the client list and one need to find out himself? In general I think not haveing a client list is very bad + I think XSF should try to maintain a list. Because here is the most knowledge on XMPP aggregated and that's where one would go first in my understanding and view.
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  559. pep. For txxmpp specifically, I don't see why it wouldn't go into the client list. There is no requirement that this list must only include clients that provide a binary, or have documentation, or even match any definition of a "chat" application. There is simply no requirements.
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  564. pep. I'd rather discuss a proposal that adds such a definition. In the meantime I think it perfectly fits the no-criteria requirements for the client list
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  566. pep. As for the second point about having a client list, I disagree. I think xmpp.org is not the right place for this. Having a generic list of things is at best misleading
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  569. emus > I'd rather discuss a proposal that adds such a definition. In the meantime I think it perfectly fits the no-criteria requirements for the client list Yes okay, I would keep it just simple as it is, as long as its not completely out of space.
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  572. pep. What do you mean "simple"?
  573. pep. We can't do that, we have to accept all clients that ask to be in the list otherwise we wouldn't be "neutral" :/
  574. emus > As for the second point about having a client list, I disagree. I think xmpp.org is not the right place for this. Having a generic list of things is at best misleading I dont see where it is generic? I think not even haveing a list of this anymore is another step disconnecting from the actual applied community. And I think that is not good.
  575. Holger xmpp.org is about presenting the protocol. I would've thought it makes some sense to showcase a few implementations as examples. But it's probably mostly irrelevant to end users. They'll search app stores. (In theory. In practice their geek friends tell them to install client $x.)
  576. emus > What do you mean "simple"? Just not put any further hurdles in making PRs to a list
  577. pep. Holger, not everybody does that unfortunately :/
  578. Holger pep.: Does what?
  579. pep. For a really long time people would create accounts on xmpp.jp because it's what xmpp.org presented first
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  581. emus > We can't do that, we have to accept all clients that ask to be in the list otherwise we wouldn't be "neutral" :/ Yes
  582. Holger Ah.
  583. emus > We can't do that, we have to accept all clients that ask to be in the list otherwise we wouldn't be "neutral" :/ Yes, I mean all XMPP
  584. emus I dont see why XSF cannot present what people are actually doing the the protocol
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  586. pep. emus, the issue with having is list is multiple. First we can't even get people to agree on criteria, so we have as little as possible. Some are tring to fight against having unmaintained implementations while some other want their implementation to be able to make it up the list so they're rather not be too specific.
  587. pep. That's a first point
  588. pep. Then presenting a list not having any idea who the target is and what they're looking for, how they ended up here. No description of clients, what kind of clients they are (I discovered today some think there should only be "chat" clients in there?), etc.
  589. pep. As a user I'd just be lost with so much choice and no directions
  590. pep. I don't want to end up here
  591. emus Hmm, yes, but if there is no agreement so far its better having one list, all or no one, than have no list in my view. However, I know now what you mean my criteria, I thought about something different.
  592. emus Hmm, yes, but if there is no agreement so far its better having one list, all or no one, than have no list in my view. However, I know now what you mean with criteria, I thought about something different.
  593. lovetox maybe an idea would be to create another organization which defines own goals for the xmpp world
  594. lovetox instead of trying to make the xsf into it
  595. Zash A lobby organization, charged with promotion of XMPP? Mmmmmm
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  597. emus Yeah, there you see ... I only see fights between those possible two organisations from the current situation
  598. pep. Holger, I'd rather showcase in XEPs with things like DOAP for example
  599. emus pep.: Sorry whats DOAP again?
  600. Zash Of course you don't need a separate organization to make a web page with a list of clients presented in a nice format
  601. pep. A document in which implementations say what XEP they support etc.
  602. lovetox Zash, yeah completly separate
  603. lovetox own homepage, own logo
  604. Zash cf modernxmpp
  605. lovetox for example
  606. emus yes, thats also fine
  607. lovetox and if enough client/server developers back this organisation
  608. pep. emus, https://lab.louiz.org/poezio/poezio/-/blob/main/data/doap.xml
  609. lovetox then it basically becomes the law
  610. lovetox we dont need the xsf to make a compliance xep
  611. Zash Huh?
  612. pep. lovetox, "the law"?
  613. pep. you mean "a possibility" rather? :)
  614. lovetox bad term, but i mean the standard
  615. lovetox the org that says whats good and bad
  616. Zash AIUI modernxmpp is meant to be more like extended implementation notes and guidelines for stuff other than the protocol itself
  617. lovetox i mean thats what most of you want anyway or not :)?
  618. pep. lovetox, sure. With implementations still having a choice to follow it or not
  619. Zash point being you can have a group/org/webpage with a different focus, and let the XSF focus on herding XEs
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  622. emus --> I did not intend to say to loose the focus on on the protocol β˜πŸ™‚
  623. emus --> I did not intend to say to loose the focus on the protocol β˜πŸ™‚
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  629. lovetox Zash, exactly, and i guess people want to make the XSF into it, because the XSF has some kind of official authority
  630. lovetox my point was, if enough client/server devs back this new org, it has enough authority
  631. Zash ... for what?
  632. lovetox for example to push compliance regulations
  633. Zash you don't even need that, you just need a popular client
  634. lovetox or to decide to *not* showcase unmaintained clients
  635. lovetox just an idea, i dont care too much, just see people fighting over this XSF direction stuff for a long time
  636. lovetox and i think people need to ask themself why they so badly need the XSF to do it instead of some other org
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  640. lovetox i would understand if the XSF had an agenda or direction it was pushing, but it seems XSF says we dont care, we are neutral we just publish XEPs
  641. pep. https://github.com/Ppjet6/xeps/commit/dcbb771034bff841fd4f8ad4fb68173f93e9c414 gonna submit something like this. Thoughts? before I push the PR button
  642. lovetox then this is perfect, for another org to not jujst push XEPs :)
  643. lovetox its not a competition then
  644. pep. The XSF does care. People really don't get that. #NeutralityIsALie.
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  646. pep. Wanting to showcase all clients is as much a direction than wanting to showcase a few clients
  647. jonas’ lovetox, people want to have a separate org, but lack the resources to do it
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  649. pep. MattJ maybe? ^ the commit above
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  653. Zash pep.: Based on https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0122.html#usecases-datatypes I'm thinking it should have a prefix of some sort
  654. pep. pubsub:?
  655. pep. Or.. do we want this more generic?
  656. Zash > Start with a prefix registered with the XMPP Registrar [3] Is there any such thing?
  657. Zash Ah, https://xmpp.org/registrar/xdv-prefixes.html
  658. pep. 0137 has a sipub: prefix
  659. pep. right
  660. Zash So I guess pubsub: would follow this
  661. pep. Where do I add that
  662. pep. I'm always confused with registrar things
  663. pep. "2005-08-26 Added sipub: prefix specified in XEP-0137. (psa)", in the XEP directly? Same as the datatype?
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  665. pep. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0137.html#registrar.xdata-validate "The XMPP Registrar includes 'sipub:' in its registry of Data Forms Validation Datatype Prefixes."
  666. pep. Does that mean this XEP defines it. I'm failing at english, or is it spec-language I don't understand
  667. Zash That's Editor procedural stuff that's done on Draft or so?
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  701. pep. https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/988 here. With a few questions
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  709. emus > lovetox, people want to have a separate org, but lack the resources to do it
  710. emus I don't see that there are actually resources in XSF either
  711. emus Still, I personally would see fewer disconnect and not have another additional organisation
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  723. emus Still, I personally would like to see fewer disconnect and not have another additional organisation
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  733. MattJ The problem is that the XSF consistently fails at anything much further beyond protocol development
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  741. pep. I think it's rather that there's no will to do more by a majority. Be it for the (expected?) lack of resources or anything else, so the few attempts often fail indeed
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  753. emus I think the ressources problem could be dealt with
  754. Zash emus, recruiting? πŸ™‚
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  758. emus Thats not what I thought of. but is sonething we should think about in general, too. I thought more into the direction, as pep. mentioned that there is a majority not wanting this, so who wants to work against that. If there is general support and motivation that will bring volunteers, I personally think.
  759. emus Thats not what I thought of. but is something we should think about in general, too. I thought more into the direction, as pep. mentioned that there is a majority not wanting this, so who wants to work against that. If there is general support and motivation that will bring volunteers, I personally think.
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  762. emus Btw, Seve lets merge the txxmpp PR then?
  763. emus oh wait, I think there is one build error
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