XSF Discussion - 2020-09-24

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  222. pep.


  223. pep.

    β€œHow to run a small social network site for your friends”

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  294. pep.

    Does pubsub allow a node to be marked/tagged/namespaced to say "here that's the kind of content you'll find and how you're supposed to handle it", or is it just a non-namespaced name?

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  298. pep.

    pubsub#type ? :/

  299. pep.

    (node configuration)

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  301. pep.

    unrelated, is it possible to have xmpp: NSs that actually point to the document?

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  324. ralphm bangs gavel

  325. ralphm

    0. Welcome + Agenda

  326. pep.


  327. ralphm


  328. ralphm

    I just sent the agenda, but it seems stuck somewhere.

  329. ralphm

    0) Welcome 1) Minute taker 2) txxmpp client on client list? 3) Elections 4) AOB 5) Date of Next 6) Close

  330. ralphm

    MattJ, Guus, Seve?

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  333. Seve says hello!

  334. MattJ


  335. guus.der.kinderen


  336. ralphm

    1. Minute taker

  337. pep.

    I'll do it

  338. ralphm

    Thanks pep.

  339. ralphm

    2. txxmpp client

  340. ralphm

    From what I understand, this is a command line tool, rather than an interactive chat client.

  341. Seve


  342. Seve


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  344. ralphm

    I don't particularly see a problem with adding this, if the description just notes this point.

  345. guus.der.kinderen

    Is this a matter for board?

  346. pep.

    I also don't see any issue with that

  347. pep.

    I don't think so

  348. ralphm

    guus.der.kinderen, good question, probably not

  349. guus.der.kinderen

    We don't show descriptions of clients on the site, by the way

  350. pep.

    Even better :)

  351. ralphm

    I mean on the page linked

  352. Seve

    Guus well, it is an open PR I would like to close and I believe applying my only opinion is not fair. Because I would not have accepted the PR at this moment, because I personally feel it does not fit there.

  353. guus.der.kinderen

    I'm with you on that Seve,

  354. pep.

    Seve, what do you think fits there then?

  355. guus.der.kinderen

    The page linked is source code

  356. guus.der.kinderen

    there's no documentation.

  357. guus.der.kinderen

    I'd stick it with 'libraries'rather then 'clients' to not confuse 99% of the people on our website looking at that list

  358. pep.

    Is all this stuff referenced somewhere in our criteria? (do we have any public criteria?)

  359. guus.der.kinderen

    but to be honest, I don't care much either way

  360. guus.der.kinderen

    No, we do not.

  361. guus.der.kinderen


  362. pep.

    Well then it probably fits into no criteria

  363. guus.der.kinderen

    there's a bit of documentation in the stuff that processes the data files, I think.

  364. guus.der.kinderen

    anyway, let's not make a big deal out of this

  365. pep.


  366. guus.der.kinderen

    Happy to see webteam move forward on this how they see fit.

  367. ralphm


  368. guus.der.kinderen

    I'd stick it with libraries, but no-one made me king of anything.

  369. Seve

    Alright then

  370. pep.

    We should really get rid of these lists someday..

  371. pep.


  372. ralphm

    To replace it with something else?

  373. pep.


  374. pep.

    Not on xmpp.org at least

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  376. ralphm

    Well, ok. That might be an interesting topic some other time, venue.

  377. pep.


  378. ralphm

    3. Elections

  379. ralphm

    As you've seen Alex has put out the call for our upcoming Board and Council elections.

  380. ralphm

    Submission deadline is November 8.

  381. ralphm

    Please consider who you'd like to ping to serve on Board and/or if you want to stand (again) yourself.

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  383. ralphm

    I don't have anything further on this myself.

  384. ralphm

    4. AOB

  385. ralphm

    Any OB?

  386. Seve

    None here πŸ™‚

  387. pep.

    None from me

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  389. guus.der.kinderen


  390. guus.der.kinderen

    maybe we can review some feedback/backburner topics next meeting?

  391. MattJ

    None here

  392. guus.der.kinderen

    in an effort to clean up the plate a bit

  393. ralphm

    Yeah, I already did a bit of clean up, but there's more that may be so obsolete that it can be removed.

  394. ralphm

    If you all could have a look at Trello, that'd be great. I'll add an agenda item for this

  395. ralphm

    6. Date of Next

  396. ralphm


  397. ralphm

    7. Close

  398. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  399. MattJ


  400. guus.der.kinderen


  401. ralphm bangs gavel

  402. Seve

    Super πŸ™‚

  403. pep.


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  410. pep.

    jonas’, vanitasvitae, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0277.html#location there's already some escaping in URIs being done here btw

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  412. lovetox

    pep., "Outside of native XMPP systems"

  413. lovetox

    of course you have to escape urls if you want them to be used by other applications

  414. pep.

    Is that an issue?

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  416. lovetox

    if you have not allowed chars in your uri you have to escape them

  417. lovetox

    it does not matter if it happens in the context of xmpp or whatever

  418. lovetox

    otherwise its not a valid uri

  419. lovetox

    i dont see how this has anything to do with the question if you are allowed to put an escaped uri into a node attribute

  420. pep.

    I don't think we're talking about the same thing

  421. pep.

    are we

  422. pep.

    I'm talking about this: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/983 and council's comments

  423. pep.

    Unrelated, I regret 0277 doesn't specify pubsub#type to be set to 'urn:xmpp:microblog:0' when not in PEP.. Any reason why? miss?

  424. pep.

    β€œA person's microblog SHOULD be located at a personal eventing (PEP) node named "urn:xmpp:microblog:0" but MAY be located at a generic publish-subscribe node that is not attached to a user's IM account.”

  425. pep.

    Would it make sense to change it now? :/

  426. pep.

    TIL microblog is not even Draft

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  432. flow

    pep., sounds sensible to recommend that pubsub#type is set

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  434. flow

    or even require that. but I don't want to get into "recommend it" vs "require it" discussion right nwo

  435. flow

    or even require that. but I don't want to get into "recommend it" vs "require it" discussion right now

  436. pep.

    I'd also require it, but I think I'm not gonna like what that implies to change in the document

  437. flow

    point is, recommending something that is sensible makes always sense, no matter the XEP state

  438. flow

    what does it imply? and what do you not like?

  439. pep.

    Well, recommending it would be better than rn, but still quite useless because it's not something I can use to detect 277 nodes in bare PubSub

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  441. pep.

    So I'd rather require it.

  442. pep.


  443. pep.

    Requiring it certainly means breaking change

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  446. flow

    make a PR and put it on council's plate :)

  447. pep.


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  449. pep.

    Do we have stats of what client is implementing microblog? Movim, SΓ t, anybody else? What about libraries?

  450. pep.

    Link Mauve, any idea? (with the DOAP stuff you've been playing)

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  453. pep.

    I'd also recommend using atom:generator in 277 maybe

  454. pep.

    Even though just using pubsub#type is already a step up

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  462. pep.

    https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/986 !

  463. Zash

    Hm, searching for `pubsub#type` yields mostly examples and a changelog entry about clarifying the field.

  464. pep.

    Yeah I've seen that :/

  465. pep.

    "clarifying", always the same word. Though tbh it's still as loose

  466. pep.

    "payload type" doesn't mean much

  467. Zash

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#registrar-formtypes-config has the longest description I could find

  468. Zash

    > The type of node data, usually specified by the namespace of the payload (if any)

  469. pep.

    Ok, so that looks appropriate

  470. pep.

    There are two example that have "http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" as value, but that's quite handwavy to me tbh

  471. pep.

    "Yeah it's atom, do whatever you want however you want"

  472. pep.

    Which is not exactly what 0277 is

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  474. pep.

    And even if it were "just atom on pubsub", there's no possibility of evolution when done this way (when pubsub#type is set to Atom)

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  497. pep.

    Where would it make sense to add an "Integration with Data Forms" section in 0060? Similar to https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0137.html#usecase.xdata

  498. pep.

    I'm thinking somewhere in Β§12 or before or after

  499. pep.


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  546. pep.

    How do I link from a XEP to an anchor in another XEP?

  547. pep.

    Just a normal html link?

  548. pep.

    I mean, <link/> with a normal html url?

  549. pep.

    xep-1234.html#foo ?

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  554. emus

    On todays meeting: ralphm pep. guus.der.kinderen Seve Even you don't see your responsibility there (but I support Seve asking for opinion, because I also couldn't evaluate myself): You all would likely put txxmpp into the library list than client? Or do you not care to put it into the client list and one need to find out himself? In general I think not haveing a client list is very bad + I think XSF should try to maintain a list. Because here is the most knowledge on XMPP aggregated and that's where one would go first in my understanding and view.

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  559. pep.

    For txxmpp specifically, I don't see why it wouldn't go into the client list. There is no requirement that this list must only include clients that provide a binary, or have documentation, or even match any definition of a "chat" application. There is simply no requirements.

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  564. pep.

    I'd rather discuss a proposal that adds such a definition. In the meantime I think it perfectly fits the no-criteria requirements for the client list

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  566. pep.

    As for the second point about having a client list, I disagree. I think xmpp.org is not the right place for this. Having a generic list of things is at best misleading

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  569. emus

    > I'd rather discuss a proposal that adds such a definition. In the meantime I think it perfectly fits the no-criteria requirements for the client list Yes okay, I would keep it just simple as it is, as long as its not completely out of space.

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  572. pep.

    What do you mean "simple"?

  573. pep.

    We can't do that, we have to accept all clients that ask to be in the list otherwise we wouldn't be "neutral" :/

  574. emus

    > As for the second point about having a client list, I disagree. I think xmpp.org is not the right place for this. Having a generic list of things is at best misleading I dont see where it is generic? I think not even haveing a list of this anymore is another step disconnecting from the actual applied community. And I think that is not good.

  575. Holger

    xmpp.org is about presenting the protocol. I would've thought it makes some sense to showcase a few implementations as examples. But it's probably mostly irrelevant to end users. They'll search app stores. (In theory. In practice their geek friends tell them to install client $x.)

  576. emus

    > What do you mean "simple"? Just not put any further hurdles in making PRs to a list

  577. pep.

    Holger, not everybody does that unfortunately :/

  578. Holger

    pep.: Does what?

  579. pep.

    For a really long time people would create accounts on xmpp.jp because it's what xmpp.org presented first

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  581. emus

    > We can't do that, we have to accept all clients that ask to be in the list otherwise we wouldn't be "neutral" :/ Yes

  582. Holger


  583. emus

    > We can't do that, we have to accept all clients that ask to be in the list otherwise we wouldn't be "neutral" :/ Yes, I mean all XMPP

  584. emus

    I dont see why XSF cannot present what people are actually doing the the protocol

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  586. pep.

    emus, the issue with having is list is multiple. First we can't even get people to agree on criteria, so we have as little as possible. Some are tring to fight against having unmaintained implementations while some other want their implementation to be able to make it up the list so they're rather not be too specific.

  587. pep.

    That's a first point

  588. pep.

    Then presenting a list not having any idea who the target is and what they're looking for, how they ended up here. No description of clients, what kind of clients they are (I discovered today some think there should only be "chat" clients in there?), etc.

  589. pep.

    As a user I'd just be lost with so much choice and no directions

  590. pep.

    I don't want to end up here

  591. emus

    Hmm, yes, but if there is no agreement so far its better having one list, all or no one, than have no list in my view. However, I know now what you mean my criteria, I thought about something different.

  592. emus

    Hmm, yes, but if there is no agreement so far its better having one list, all or no one, than have no list in my view. However, I know now what you mean with criteria, I thought about something different.

  593. lovetox

    maybe an idea would be to create another organization which defines own goals for the xmpp world

  594. lovetox

    instead of trying to make the xsf into it

  595. Zash

    A lobby organization, charged with promotion of XMPP? Mmmmmm

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  597. emus

    Yeah, there you see ... I only see fights between those possible two organisations from the current situation

  598. pep.

    Holger, I'd rather showcase in XEPs with things like DOAP for example

  599. emus

    pep.: Sorry whats DOAP again?

  600. Zash

    Of course you don't need a separate organization to make a web page with a list of clients presented in a nice format

  601. pep.

    A document in which implementations say what XEP they support etc.

  602. lovetox

    Zash, yeah completly separate

  603. lovetox

    own homepage, own logo

  604. Zash

    cf modernxmpp

  605. lovetox

    for example

  606. emus

    yes, thats also fine

  607. lovetox

    and if enough client/server developers back this organisation

  608. pep.

    emus, https://lab.louiz.org/poezio/poezio/-/blob/main/data/doap.xml

  609. lovetox

    then it basically becomes the law

  610. lovetox

    we dont need the xsf to make a compliance xep

  611. Zash


  612. pep.

    lovetox, "the law"?

  613. pep.

    you mean "a possibility" rather? :)

  614. lovetox

    bad term, but i mean the standard

  615. lovetox

    the org that says whats good and bad

  616. Zash

    AIUI modernxmpp is meant to be more like extended implementation notes and guidelines for stuff other than the protocol itself

  617. lovetox

    i mean thats what most of you want anyway or not :)?

  618. pep.

    lovetox, sure. With implementations still having a choice to follow it or not

  619. Zash

    point being you can have a group/org/webpage with a different focus, and let the XSF focus on herding XEs

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  622. emus

    --> I did not intend to say to loose the focus on on the protocol β˜πŸ™‚

  623. emus

    --> I did not intend to say to loose the focus on the protocol β˜πŸ™‚

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  629. lovetox

    Zash, exactly, and i guess people want to make the XSF into it, because the XSF has some kind of official authority

  630. lovetox

    my point was, if enough client/server devs back this new org, it has enough authority

  631. Zash

    ... for what?

  632. lovetox

    for example to push compliance regulations

  633. Zash

    you don't even need that, you just need a popular client

  634. lovetox

    or to decide to *not* showcase unmaintained clients

  635. lovetox

    just an idea, i dont care too much, just see people fighting over this XSF direction stuff for a long time

  636. lovetox

    and i think people need to ask themself why they so badly need the XSF to do it instead of some other org

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  640. lovetox

    i would understand if the XSF had an agenda or direction it was pushing, but it seems XSF says we dont care, we are neutral we just publish XEPs

  641. pep.

    https://github.com/Ppjet6/xeps/commit/dcbb771034bff841fd4f8ad4fb68173f93e9c414 gonna submit something like this. Thoughts? before I push the PR button

  642. lovetox

    then this is perfect, for another org to not jujst push XEPs :)

  643. lovetox

    its not a competition then

  644. pep.

    The XSF does care. People really don't get that. #NeutralityIsALie.

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  646. pep.

    Wanting to showcase all clients is as much a direction than wanting to showcase a few clients

  647. jonas’

    lovetox, people want to have a separate org, but lack the resources to do it

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  649. pep.

    MattJ maybe? ^ the commit above

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  653. Zash

    pep.: Based on https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0122.html#usecases-datatypes I'm thinking it should have a prefix of some sort

  654. pep.


  655. pep.

    Or.. do we want this more generic?

  656. Zash

    > Start with a prefix registered with the XMPP Registrar [3] Is there any such thing?

  657. Zash

    Ah, https://xmpp.org/registrar/xdv-prefixes.html

  658. pep.

    0137 has a sipub: prefix

  659. pep.


  660. Zash

    So I guess pubsub: would follow this

  661. pep.

    Where do I add that

  662. pep.

    I'm always confused with registrar things

  663. pep.

    "2005-08-26 Added sipub: prefix specified in XEP-0137. (psa)", in the XEP directly? Same as the datatype?

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  665. pep.

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0137.html#registrar.xdata-validate "The XMPP Registrar includes 'sipub:' in its registry of Data Forms Validation Datatype Prefixes."

  666. pep.

    Does that mean this XEP defines it. I'm failing at english, or is it spec-language I don't understand

  667. Zash

    That's Editor procedural stuff that's done on Draft or so?

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  701. pep.

    https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/988 here. With a few questions

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  709. emus

    > lovetox, people want to have a separate org, but lack the resources to do it

  710. emus

    I don't see that there are actually resources in XSF either

  711. emus

    Still, I personally would see fewer disconnect and not have another additional organisation

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  723. emus

    Still, I personally would like to see fewer disconnect and not have another additional organisation

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  733. MattJ

    The problem is that the XSF consistently fails at anything much further beyond protocol development

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  741. pep.

    I think it's rather that there's no will to do more by a majority. Be it for the (expected?) lack of resources or anything else, so the few attempts often fail indeed

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  753. emus

    I think the ressources problem could be dealt with

  754. Zash

    emus, recruiting? πŸ™‚

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  758. emus

    Thats not what I thought of. but is sonething we should think about in general, too. I thought more into the direction, as pep. mentioned that there is a majority not wanting this, so who wants to work against that. If there is general support and motivation that will bring volunteers, I personally think.

  759. emus

    Thats not what I thought of. but is something we should think about in general, too. I thought more into the direction, as pep. mentioned that there is a majority not wanting this, so who wants to work against that. If there is general support and motivation that will bring volunteers, I personally think.

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  762. emus

    Btw, Seve lets merge the txxmpp PR then?

  763. emus

    oh wait, I think there is one build error

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