XSF Discussion - 2020-09-27

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10:21:14 Holger MattJ, are the new MAM filter fields 'before-id' and 'after-id' exactly equivalent to RSM's before/after except that they're allowed to be combined?
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10:23:41 Holger MattJ, if so, couldn't the "server MUST return an item-not-found" thing be limited to those new fields, as clients who rely on that behavior could just use the new fields?
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10:43:24 MattJ Holger, so allow non-existent ids in RSM to proceed without an error?
10:43:33 MattJ That would be a breaking change, no?
10:46:19 lovetox and what would the server return Holger ? a complete=true?
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10:46:44 Holger > so allow non-existent ids in RSM to proceed without an error? Yes, as permitted by XEP-0059. It would be nice if generic XEP-0059 code could avoid special-casing MAM. > That would be a breaking change, no? I guess. Unless that MUST was added after the :2 bump?
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10:47:57 Holger (I think you didn't have it in earlier 0313 revisions, but I'm not sure at what point it was added and can't find it in the revision history.)
10:48:39 lovetox Holger, but the item-not-found is not a special case for mam
10:48:39 lovetox https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html#notfound
10:48:43 Holger Anyway if it was added before the :2 bump I see how it would be a breaking change, so it might just be an item for the next bump.
10:48:54 Holger If you'd be fine with that change in general.
10:50:21 Holger lovetox, that 0059 section allows servers to return an actual result if one of "the following circumstances" doesn't apply.
10:51:37 lovetox sounds weird but yes it says "all circumstances must apply"
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10:51:42 lovetox hell knows why
10:51:48 lovetox but what would you return?
10:52:03 lovetox say you delete the database, i request the last mam-id which is invalid
10:52:12 lovetox how would i get my latest messages?
10:52:17 lovetox if you dont return an error
10:52:47 Holger > The UID itself cannot be used to derive directly the next item within the set (e.g. the alphabetical or numerical order of the UIDs do not specify the order of the items). ejabberd has numerically ordered UIDs. If you request <after>42</after> it'll return the messages with UIDs >42.
10:53:20 lovetox yeah you have, but thats just your implementation and ordering is not required
10:53:35 Holger Sure.
10:53:37 lovetox still if you reset your database
10:53:39 lovetox you start with 1
10:53:42 lovetox i request 1000
10:53:45 lovetox what do you return?
10:53:51 lovetox nothing? then i just lost messages
10:54:12 Holger You ask me about my implementation and then you complain that I'm just talking my implementation 🙂
10:54:37 Holger ejabberd's UIDs are timestamps. So nothing bad happens in your "reset DB" example.
10:54:44 Holger But I don't think this is relevant.
10:55:07 lovetox so what happens if i request mam-id=asd
10:55:51 lovetox or are you saying you dont want to send an error in the specific case that you can determine a correct result?
10:55:57 Holger XEP-0059 says "servers can do $foo if the conditions $bar apply". XEP-0313 says "servers must do XEP-0059 except that they can't do $foo even if the conditions $bar apply". That's the part I don't like.
10:55:58 lovetox but in others where you not, you still would send an error
10:56:29 Holger > or are you saying you dont want to send an error in the specific case that you can determine a correct result? Right. XEP-0059 says that.
10:56:38 Holger > but in others where you not, you still would send an error Right.
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10:57:10 Holger lovetox, actually I seem to remember you arguing the other way round and liking my behavior because it avoids another MAM request 😉
10:57:38 lovetox im not arguing for anything currently, i just wanted to understand your proposal
10:57:45 lovetox at first i thought it was, send never an error
10:57:46 MattJ Holger, can you take it to the list? Partly because I don't have the bandwidth to think about it today, partly because I don't want to forget you asked, and partly because I think other peoples' input would be good
10:57:53 lovetox now i understand it, sounds good to me
10:58:01 Holger MattJ, ok!
10:58:16 MattJ I think if it weren't for backwards compatibility, this restriction would indeed not need to apply to RSM
10:58:32 MattJ so if we can find some loophole or way to remove it, we probably can
10:59:35 Holger MattJ, apart from this question; my understanding that `before-id` and `after-id` are equivalent to the RSM elements except for being combinable is correct?
10:59:52 Holger I.e. I guess being able to combine them was the motivation to add them to 0313?
11:00:49 lovetox i think equivalent is the wrong word
11:01:07 lovetox before and after set in a rsm combined makes no sense, so no its not equivalent
11:01:26 lovetox yeah if you think RSM is a filter and not a paging mechanism then it would be equivalent
11:01:35 lovetox but its not
11:01:37 Holger Right.
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11:01:49 Holger Yes yes I agree 🙂
11:01:53 lovetox :D
11:02:32 MattJ Holger: yes, being able to combine them was the reason
11:02:45 Holger Ok, thanks!
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11:03:11 MattJ Since many people requested that and abusing RSM even further seemed like an undesirable path
11:03:22 Holger Yup, makes sense.
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12:26:39 lovetox puh implementing vcard4 spec is .. challenging
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12:28:26 lovetox i would say its so complex that probably no one right now implements it in full
12:28:50 lovetox and we are probably in a situation where one impl overwrites data that it does not understand
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17:04:28 MattJ lovetox: what problems do you face?
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18:16:58 lovetox i don’t yet, i just think its very much work to implement vcard4
18:17:25 lovetox i dont think you can support a subset
18:17:32 lovetox you have to implement the whole spec
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18:18:05 lovetox otherwise when you receive a vcard with properties and values you dont know, its very hard to "keep" them and push them again out, and only change some fields you support
18:19:05 lovetox in vcard temp it was more like a simple key:value store
18:19:19 lovetox with lets say 20-25 keys, so it was not hard to support all of them
18:20:02 lovetox now you have various "parameters" for all the values, there are "groups" which group values
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18:21:29 lovetox im working on implementing this now, i keep you posted :)
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18:23:33 pep. lovetox: you'll need to support something like this for bookmarks2 anyway :p
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18:27:05 lovetox no pep. i dont think you can compare that
18:27:15 lovetox in bookmarks2 there is a dedicated element which is an extension
18:27:21 lovetox you save it away and you are finished
18:27:38 lovetox in vcard this would be insanely more hard
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20:05:57 pep. lovetox: same issue when you start implementing extensions
20:07:23 lovetox very theoretical discussion as there is not even one extension
20:07:48 lovetox but yes 10 years, and 20 different extensions and you are halfway in vcard :)
20:10:18 Zash What extensions to vcard-temp have there been?
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20:17:05 Link Mauve Zash, JABBER-ID was an extension compared to vCard 1 IIRC.
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20:17:22 Link Mauve I’m not aware of anything else.
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20:17:47 Zash Not sure that's the kind of extension lovetox was talking about?
20:17:56 Link Mauve JABBERID* sorry.
20:18:14 Link Mauve Ah, I only read the very last message before replying. :-°
20:18:17 Link Mauve Probably not then.
20:18:22 lovetox im not talking about extensions, pep. talks about extensions
20:18:23 Zash JABBERID and DESC and whatever were additions compared to the never finished vcard xml variant of vcard3
20:19:04 Link Mauve Right.
20:19:14 lovetox im saying the vcard4 spec is big, supports many things, and i consider it very hard to support a subset
20:19:40 lovetox without losing half the data on every update of course
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20:25:42 pep. well I already know of 1 non-standard one :x
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