HolgerMattJ, are the new MAM filter fields 'before-id' and 'after-id' exactly equivalent to RSM's before/after except that they're allowed to be combined?
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HolgerMattJ, if so, couldn't the "server MUST return an item-not-found" thing be limited to those new fields, as clients who rely on that behavior could just use the new fields?
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MattJHolger, so allow non-existent ids in RSM to proceed without an error?
MattJThat would be a breaking change, no?
lovetoxand what would the server return Holger ? a complete=true?
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Holger> so allow non-existent ids in RSM to proceed without an error?
Yes, as permitted by XEP-0059. It would be nice if generic XEP-0059 code could avoid special-casing MAM.
> That would be a breaking change, no?
I guess. Unless that MUST was added after the :2 bump?
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Holger(I think you didn't have it in earlier 0313 revisions, but I'm not sure at what point it was added and can't find it in the revision history.)
lovetoxHolger, but the item-not-found is not a special case for mam
HolgerAnyway if it was added before the :2 bump I see how it would be a breaking change, so it might just be an item for the next bump.
HolgerIf you'd be fine with that change in general.
Holgerlovetox, that 0059 section allows servers to return an actual result if one of "the following circumstances" doesn't apply.
lovetoxsounds weird but yes it says "all circumstances must apply"
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lovetoxhell knows why
lovetoxbut what would you return?
lovetoxsay you delete the database, i request the last mam-id which is invalid
lovetoxhow would i get my latest messages?
lovetoxif you dont return an error
Holger> The UID itself cannot be used to derive directly the next item within the set (e.g. the alphabetical or numerical order of the UIDs do not specify the order of the items).
ejabberd has numerically ordered UIDs. If you request <after>42</after> it'll return the messages with UIDs >42.
lovetoxyeah you have, but thats just your implementation and ordering is not required
HolgerSure.
lovetoxstill if you reset your database
lovetoxyou start with 1
lovetoxi request 1000
lovetoxwhat do you return?
lovetoxnothing? then i just lost messages
HolgerYou ask me about my implementation and then you complain that I'm just talking my implementation π
Holgerejabberd's UIDs are timestamps. So nothing bad happens in your "reset DB" example.
HolgerBut I don't think this is relevant.
lovetoxso what happens if i request mam-id=asd
lovetoxor are you saying you dont want to send an error in the specific case that you can determine a correct result?
HolgerXEP-0059 says "servers can do $foo if the conditions $bar apply". XEP-0313 says "servers must do XEP-0059 except that they can't do $foo even if the conditions $bar apply". That's the part I don't like.
lovetoxbut in others where you not, you still would send an error
Holger> or are you saying you dont want to send an error in the specific case that you can determine a correct result?
Right. XEP-0059 says that.
Holger> but in others where you not, you still would send an error
Right.
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Holgerlovetox, actually I seem to remember you arguing the other way round and liking my behavior because it avoids another MAM request π
lovetoxim not arguing for anything currently, i just wanted to understand your proposal
lovetoxat first i thought it was, send never an error
MattJHolger, can you take it to the list? Partly because I don't have the bandwidth to think about it today, partly because I don't want to forget you asked, and partly because I think other peoples' input would be good
lovetoxnow i understand it, sounds good to me
HolgerMattJ, ok!
MattJI think if it weren't for backwards compatibility, this restriction would indeed not need to apply to RSM
MattJso if we can find some loophole or way to remove it, we probably can
HolgerMattJ, apart from this question; my understanding that `before-id` and `after-id` are equivalent to the RSM elements except for being combinable is correct?
HolgerI.e. I guess being able to combine them was the motivation to add them to 0313?
lovetoxi think equivalent is the wrong word
lovetoxbefore and after set in a rsm combined makes no sense, so no its not equivalent
lovetoxyeah if you think RSM is a filter and not a paging mechanism then it would be equivalent
lovetoxbut its not
HolgerRight.
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HolgerYes yes I agree π
lovetox:D
MattJHolger: yes, being able to combine them was the reason
HolgerOk, thanks!
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MattJSince many people requested that and abusing RSM even further seemed like an undesirable path
HolgerYup, makes sense.
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lovetoxpuh implementing vcard4 spec is .. challenging
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lovetoxi would say its so complex that probably no one right now implements it in full
lovetoxand we are probably in a situation where one impl overwrites data that it does not understand
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MattJlovetox: what problems do you face?
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lovetoxi donβt yet, i just think its very much work to implement vcard4
lovetoxi dont think you can support a subset
lovetoxyou have to implement the whole spec
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lovetoxotherwise when you receive a vcard with properties and values you dont know, its very hard to "keep" them and push them again out, and only change some fields you support
lovetoxin vcard temp it was more like a simple key:value store
lovetoxwith lets say 20-25 keys, so it was not hard to support all of them
lovetoxnow you have various "parameters" for all the values, there are "groups" which group values
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lovetoxim working on implementing this now, i keep you posted :)
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pep.lovetox: you'll need to support something like this for bookmarks2 anyway :p
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lovetoxno pep. i dont think you can compare that
lovetoxin bookmarks2 there is a dedicated element which is an extension
lovetoxyou save it away and you are finished
lovetoxin vcard this would be insanely more hard
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pep.lovetox: same issue when you start implementing extensions
lovetoxvery theoretical discussion as there is not even one extension
lovetoxbut yes 10 years, and 20 different extensions and you are halfway in vcard :)
ZashWhat extensions to vcard-temp have there been?
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Link MauveZash, JABBER-ID was an extension compared to vCardΒ 1 IIRC.
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Link MauveIβm not aware of anything else.
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ZashNot sure that's the kind of extension lovetox was talking about?
Link MauveJABBERID* sorry.
Link MauveAh, I only read the very last message before replying. :-Β°
Link MauveProbably not then.
lovetoxim not talking about extensions, pep. talks about extensions
ZashJABBERID and DESC and whatever were additions compared to the never finished vcard xml variant of vcard3
Link MauveRight.
lovetoxim saying the vcard4 spec is big, supports many things, and i consider it very hard to support a subset
lovetoxwithout losing half the data on every update of course