XSF Discussion - 2020-09-27


  1. mukt2 has joined

  2. dwd has left

  3. debacle has left

  4. karoshi has left

  5. alameyo has left

  6. dwd has joined

  7. Lance has left

  8. arc has left

  9. Lance has joined

  10. arc has joined

  11. andrey.g has left

  12. Lance has left

  13. Lance has joined

  14. LNJ has left

  15. arc has left

  16. arc has joined

  17. emus has left

  18. Neustradamus has left

  19. Neustradamus has joined

  20. Lance has left

  21. Lance has joined

  22. lskdjf has left

  23. mukt2 has left

  24. neshtaxmpp has left

  25. dwd has left

  26. arc has left

  27. arc has joined

  28. Tobias has left

  29. Seve has left

  30. Lance has left

  31. alameyo has joined

  32. Lance has joined

  33. alameyo has left

  34. alameyo has joined

  35. mukt2 has joined

  36. Lance has left

  37. Lance has joined

  38. mukt2 has left

  39. mukt2 has joined

  40. arc has left

  41. arc has joined

  42. alameyo has left

  43. alameyo has joined

  44. arc has left

  45. arc has joined

  46. mukt2 has left

  47. mukt2 has joined

  48. alex-a-soto has joined

  49. Lance has left

  50. emus has joined

  51. krauq has left

  52. krauq has joined

  53. mukt2 has left

  54. Shell has left

  55. Lance has joined

  56. Seve has joined

  57. Yagiza has joined

  58. DebXWoody has joined

  59. DebXWoody has left

  60. Lance has left

  61. dwd has joined

  62. Half-Shot has left

  63. uhoreg has left

  64. Rixon πŸ‘πŸ—¨ has left

  65. Half-Shot has joined

  66. Rixon πŸ‘πŸ—¨ has joined

  67. uhoreg has joined

  68. alameyo has left

  69. mukt2 has joined

  70. Lance has joined

  71. adityaborikar has left

  72. adityaborikar has joined

  73. Nano4BeingYou has joined

  74. DebXWoody has joined

  75. mukt2 has left

  76. mukt2 has joined

  77. neshtaxmpp has joined

  78. Lance has left

  79. mukt2 has left

  80. alameyo has joined

  81. lorddavidiii has joined

  82. mukt2 has joined

  83. neshtaxmpp has left

  84. neshtaxmpp has joined

  85. mukt2 has left

  86. mukt2 has joined

  87. lovetox has joined

  88. Lance has joined

  89. Nano4BeingYou has left

  90. arc has left

  91. arc has joined

  92. arc has left

  93. arc has joined

  94. Lance has left

  95. emus has left

  96. mukt2 has left

  97. lorddavidiii has left

  98. mukt2 has joined

  99. lorddavidiii has joined

  100. adityaborikar has left

  101. adityaborikar has joined

  102. Tobias has joined

  103. mukt2 has left

  104. eevvoor has joined

  105. lorddavidiii has left

  106. Lance has joined

  107. lorddavidiii has joined

  108. arc has left

  109. arc has joined

  110. mukt2 has joined

  111. werdan has joined

  112. werdan has left

  113. Mikaela has joined

  114. mukt2 has left

  115. j.r has left

  116. j.r has joined

  117. lovetox has left

  118. DebXWoody has left

  119. Lance has left

  120. lorddavidiii has left

  121. DebXWoody has joined

  122. Neustradamus has left

  123. Neustradamus has joined

  124. lorddavidiii has joined

  125. mdosch has joined

  126. lorddavidiii has left

  127. sonny has left

  128. LNJ has joined

  129. j.r has left

  130. j.r has joined

  131. papatutuwawa has joined

  132. karoshi has joined

  133. emus has joined

  134. lorddavidiii has joined

  135. winfried has left

  136. winfried has joined

  137. sonny has joined

  138. Lance has joined

  139. mukt2 has joined

  140. jcbrand has joined

  141. sonny has left

  142. sonny has joined

  143. sonny has left

  144. mukt2 has left

  145. mukt2 has joined

  146. lovetox has joined

  147. mukt2 has left

  148. Lance has left

  149. mukt2 has joined

  150. floretta has left

  151. vanitasvitae has joined

  152. debacle has joined

  153. sonny has joined

  154. lorddavidiii has left

  155. arc has left

  156. arc has joined

  157. sonny has left

  158. floretta has joined

  159. lorddavidiii has joined

  160. sonny has joined

  161. vanitasvitae has left

  162. vanitasvitae has joined

  163. sonny has left

  164. mukt2 has left

  165. lorddavidiii has left

  166. jcbrand has left

  167. lorddavidiii has joined

  168. mukt2 has joined

  169. lorddavidiii has left

  170. lorddavidiii has joined

  171. mukt2 has left

  172. mukt2 has joined

  173. eevvoor has left

  174. sonny has joined

  175. dwd has left

  176. dwd has joined

  177. arc has left

  178. arc has joined

  179. lorddavidiii has left

  180. arc has left

  181. arc has joined

  182. mukt2 has left

  183. lorddavidiii has joined

  184. eevvoor has joined

  185. sonny has left

  186. sonny has joined

  187. eevvoor has left

  188. eevvoor has joined

  189. lorddavidiii has left

  190. arc has left

  191. arc has joined

  192. mdosch has left

  193. arc has left

  194. arc has joined

  195. arc has left

  196. arc has joined

  197. lskdjf has joined

  198. lorddavidiii has joined

  199. jcbrand has joined

  200. lovetox has left

  201. sonny has left

  202. lovetox has joined

  203. Holger

    MattJ, are the new MAM filter fields 'before-id' and 'after-id' exactly equivalent to RSM's before/after except that they're allowed to be combined?

  204. adityaborikar has left

  205. adityaborikar has joined

  206. Holger

    MattJ, if so, couldn't the "server MUST return an item-not-found" thing be limited to those new fields, as clients who rely on that behavior could just use the new fields?

  207. Lance has joined

  208. pasdesushi has joined

  209. pasdesushi has left

  210. sonny has joined

  211. adityaborikar has left

  212. adityaborikar has joined

  213. pasdesushi has joined

  214. sonny has left

  215. pasdesushi has left

  216. pasdesushi has joined

  217. sonny has joined

  218. pasdesushi has left

  219. MattJ

    Holger, so allow non-existent ids in RSM to proceed without an error?

  220. MattJ

    That would be a breaking change, no?

  221. lovetox

    and what would the server return Holger ? a complete=true?

  222. sonny has left

  223. Holger

    > so allow non-existent ids in RSM to proceed without an error? Yes, as permitted by XEP-0059. It would be nice if generic XEP-0059 code could avoid special-casing MAM. > That would be a breaking change, no? I guess. Unless that MUST was added after the :2 bump?

  224. Lance has left

  225. Holger

    (I think you didn't have it in earlier 0313 revisions, but I'm not sure at what point it was added and can't find it in the revision history.)

  226. lovetox

    Holger, but the item-not-found is not a special case for mam

  227. lovetox

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0059.html#notfound

  228. Holger

    Anyway if it was added before the :2 bump I see how it would be a breaking change, so it might just be an item for the next bump.

  229. Holger

    If you'd be fine with that change in general.

  230. Holger

    lovetox, that 0059 section allows servers to return an actual result if one of "the following circumstances" doesn't apply.

  231. lovetox

    sounds weird but yes it says "all circumstances must apply"

  232. sonny has joined

  233. lovetox

    hell knows why

  234. lovetox

    but what would you return?

  235. lovetox

    say you delete the database, i request the last mam-id which is invalid

  236. lovetox

    how would i get my latest messages?

  237. lovetox

    if you dont return an error

  238. Holger

    > The UID itself cannot be used to derive directly the next item within the set (e.g. the alphabetical or numerical order of the UIDs do not specify the order of the items). ejabberd has numerically ordered UIDs. If you request <after>42</after> it'll return the messages with UIDs >42.

  239. lovetox

    yeah you have, but thats just your implementation and ordering is not required

  240. Holger

    Sure.

  241. lovetox

    still if you reset your database

  242. lovetox

    you start with 1

  243. lovetox

    i request 1000

  244. lovetox

    what do you return?

  245. lovetox

    nothing? then i just lost messages

  246. Holger

    You ask me about my implementation and then you complain that I'm just talking my implementation πŸ™‚

  247. Holger

    ejabberd's UIDs are timestamps. So nothing bad happens in your "reset DB" example.

  248. Holger

    But I don't think this is relevant.

  249. lovetox

    so what happens if i request mam-id=asd

  250. lovetox

    or are you saying you dont want to send an error in the specific case that you can determine a correct result?

  251. Holger

    XEP-0059 says "servers can do $foo if the conditions $bar apply". XEP-0313 says "servers must do XEP-0059 except that they can't do $foo even if the conditions $bar apply". That's the part I don't like.

  252. lovetox

    but in others where you not, you still would send an error

  253. Holger

    > or are you saying you dont want to send an error in the specific case that you can determine a correct result? Right. XEP-0059 says that.

  254. Holger

    > but in others where you not, you still would send an error Right.

  255. sonny has left

  256. Holger

    lovetox, actually I seem to remember you arguing the other way round and liking my behavior because it avoids another MAM request πŸ˜‰

  257. lovetox

    im not arguing for anything currently, i just wanted to understand your proposal

  258. lovetox

    at first i thought it was, send never an error

  259. MattJ

    Holger, can you take it to the list? Partly because I don't have the bandwidth to think about it today, partly because I don't want to forget you asked, and partly because I think other peoples' input would be good

  260. lovetox

    now i understand it, sounds good to me

  261. Holger

    MattJ, ok!

  262. MattJ

    I think if it weren't for backwards compatibility, this restriction would indeed not need to apply to RSM

  263. MattJ

    so if we can find some loophole or way to remove it, we probably can

  264. Holger

    MattJ, apart from this question; my understanding that `before-id` and `after-id` are equivalent to the RSM elements except for being combinable is correct?

  265. Holger

    I.e. I guess being able to combine them was the motivation to add them to 0313?

  266. lovetox

    i think equivalent is the wrong word

  267. lovetox

    before and after set in a rsm combined makes no sense, so no its not equivalent

  268. lovetox

    yeah if you think RSM is a filter and not a paging mechanism then it would be equivalent

  269. lovetox

    but its not

  270. Holger

    Right.

  271. sonny has joined

  272. Holger

    Yes yes I agree πŸ™‚

  273. lovetox

    :D

  274. MattJ

    Holger: yes, being able to combine them was the reason

  275. Holger

    Ok, thanks!

  276. sonny has left

  277. MattJ

    Since many people requested that and abusing RSM even further seemed like an undesirable path

  278. Holger

    Yup, makes sense.

  279. moparisthebest has left

  280. moparisthebest has joined

  281. pasdesushi has joined

  282. pasdesushi has left

  283. pasdesushi has joined

  284. neshtaxmpp has left

  285. pasdesushi has left

  286. pasdesushi has joined

  287. pasdesushi has left

  288. pasdesushi has joined

  289. Andrzej has left

  290. sonny has joined

  291. lorddavidiii has left

  292. pasdesushi has left

  293. sonny has left

  294. pasdesushi has joined

  295. mukt2 has joined

  296. pasdesushi has left

  297. pasdesushi has joined

  298. pasdesushi has left

  299. pasdesushi has joined

  300. Shell has joined

  301. pasdesushi has left

  302. antranigv has joined

  303. pasdesushi has joined

  304. focus121 has left

  305. pasdesushi has left

  306. pasdesushi has joined

  307. Andrzej has joined

  308. pasdesushi has left

  309. pasdesushi has joined

  310. lovetox has left

  311. antranigv has left

  312. antranigv has joined

  313. focus121 has joined

  314. lovetox has joined

  315. antranigv has left

  316. antranigv has joined

  317. mukt2 has left

  318. antranigv has left

  319. antranigv has joined

  320. pasdesushi has left

  321. antranigv has left

  322. antranigv has joined

  323. werdan has joined

  324. mukt2 has joined

  325. pasdesushi has joined

  326. debacle has left

  327. andrey.g has joined

  328. sonny has joined

  329. eevvoor has left

  330. xecks has left

  331. xecks has joined

  332. lovetox

    puh implementing vcard4 spec is .. challenging

  333. eevvoor has joined

  334. lovetox

    i would say its so complex that probably no one right now implements it in full

  335. lovetox

    and we are probably in a situation where one impl overwrites data that it does not understand

  336. krauq has left

  337. Lance has joined

  338. krauq has joined

  339. antranigv has left

  340. antranigv has joined

  341. winfried has left

  342. winfried has joined

  343. krauq has left

  344. sonny has left

  345. krauq has joined

  346. antranigv has left

  347. pasdesushi has left

  348. pasdesushi has joined

  349. pasdesushi has left

  350. pasdesushi has joined

  351. pasdesushi has left

  352. pasdesushi has joined

  353. pasdesushi has left

  354. krauq has left

  355. pasdesushi has joined

  356. krauq has joined

  357. pasdesushi has left

  358. pasdesushi has joined

  359. Steve Kille has left

  360. krauq has left

  361. pasdesushi has left

  362. krauq has joined

  363. Lance has left

  364. mukt2 has left

  365. eevvoor has left

  366. eevvoor has joined

  367. pasdesushi has joined

  368. mukt2 has joined

  369. pasdesushi has left

  370. krauq has left

  371. neshtaxmpp has joined

  372. krauq has joined

  373. Lance has joined

  374. mukt2 has left

  375. krauq has left

  376. krauq has joined

  377. sonny has joined

  378. sonny has left

  379. dwd has left

  380. winfried has left

  381. winfried has joined

  382. Lance has left

  383. mukt2 has joined

  384. pasdesushi has joined

  385. sonny has joined

  386. dwd has joined

  387. eevvoor has left

  388. adityaborikar has left

  389. adityaborikar has joined

  390. sonny has left

  391. eevvoor has joined

  392. pasdesushi has left

  393. sonny has joined

  394. werdan has left

  395. Lance has joined

  396. dwd has left

  397. sonny has left

  398. mukt2 has left

  399. winfried has left

  400. Nano4BeingYou has joined

  401. winfried has joined

  402. sonny has joined

  403. winfried has left

  404. winfried has joined

  405. sonny has left

  406. emus has left

  407. emus has joined

  408. andrey.g has left

  409. mukt2 has joined

  410. sonny has joined

  411. sonny has left

  412. adityaborikar has left

  413. adityaborikar has joined

  414. dwd has joined

  415. Lance has left

  416. peetah has left

  417. sonny has joined

  418. winfried has left

  419. winfried has joined

  420. peetah has joined

  421. waqas has joined

  422. waqas has left

  423. peetah has left

  424. sonny has left

  425. Lance has joined

  426. sonny has joined

  427. alameyo has left

  428. alameyo has joined

  429. mukt2 has left

  430. werdan has joined

  431. paul has left

  432. theTedd_ has joined

  433. theTedd_ has left

  434. Lance has left

  435. LNJ has left

  436. mukt2 has joined

  437. sonny has left

  438. adityaborikar has left

  439. adityaborikar has joined

  440. theTedd_ has joined

  441. theTedd_ has left

  442. werdan has left

  443. Lance has joined

  444. sonny has joined

  445. winfried has left

  446. winfried has joined

  447. arc has left

  448. arc has joined

  449. lovetox has left

  450. peetah has joined

  451. winfried has left

  452. winfried has joined

  453. eevvoor has left

  454. peetah has left

  455. lorddavidiii has joined

  456. mukt2 has left

  457. Lance has left

  458. lovetox has joined

  459. mukt2 has joined

  460. debacle has joined

  461. arc has left

  462. arc has joined

  463. Maranda has left

  464. Lance has joined

  465. Maranda has joined

  466. mukt2 has left

  467. MattJ

    lovetox: what problems do you face?

  468. lovetox has left

  469. mukt2 has joined

  470. Lance has left

  471. lorddavidiii has left

  472. mdosch has joined

  473. waqas has joined

  474. mukt2 has left

  475. mukt2 has joined

  476. arc has left

  477. arc has joined

  478. arc has left

  479. arc has joined

  480. lorddavidiii has joined

  481. arc has left

  482. arc has joined

  483. arc has left

  484. arc has joined

  485. arc has left

  486. arc has joined

  487. krauq has left

  488. krauq has joined

  489. Nekit has left

  490. dwd has left

  491. Nano4BeingYou has left

  492. krauq has left

  493. krauq has joined

  494. Lance has joined

  495. antranigv has joined

  496. antranigv has left

  497. antranigv has joined

  498. sonny has left

  499. antranigv has left

  500. pasdesushi has joined

  501. lovetox has joined

  502. lovetox

    i don’t yet, i just think its very much work to implement vcard4

  503. lovetox

    i dont think you can support a subset

  504. lovetox

    you have to implement the whole spec

  505. antranigv has joined

  506. lovetox

    otherwise when you receive a vcard with properties and values you dont know, its very hard to "keep" them and push them again out, and only change some fields you support

  507. lovetox

    in vcard temp it was more like a simple key:value store

  508. lovetox

    with lets say 20-25 keys, so it was not hard to support all of them

  509. lovetox

    now you have various "parameters" for all the values, there are "groups" which group values

  510. pasdesushi has left

  511. pasdesushi has joined

  512. lovetox

    im working on implementing this now, i keep you posted :)

  513. adityaborikar has left

  514. pasdesushi has left

  515. antranigv has left

  516. antranigv has joined

  517. pasdesushi has joined

  518. pep.

    lovetox: you'll need to support something like this for bookmarks2 anyway :p

  519. pasdesushi has left

  520. pasdesushi has joined

  521. adityaborikar has joined

  522. lovetox

    no pep. i dont think you can compare that

  523. lovetox

    in bookmarks2 there is a dedicated element which is an extension

  524. lovetox

    you save it away and you are finished

  525. lovetox

    in vcard this would be insanely more hard

  526. antranigv has left

  527. pasdesushi has left

  528. pasdesushi has joined

  529. pasdesushi has left

  530. pasdesushi has joined

  531. pasdesushi has left

  532. pasdesushi has joined

  533. Steve Kille has joined

  534. pasdesushi has left

  535. pasdesushi has joined

  536. Lance has left

  537. pasdesushi has left

  538. krauq has left

  539. krauq has joined

  540. lorddavidiii has left

  541. lorddavidiii has joined

  542. Lance has joined

  543. werdan has joined

  544. LNJ has joined

  545. Lance has left

  546. Yagiza has left

  547. pasdesushi has joined

  548. dwd has joined

  549. lorddavidiii has left

  550. APach has left

  551. APach has joined

  552. Lance has joined

  553. pasdesushi has left

  554. sonny has joined

  555. arc has left

  556. arc has joined

  557. krauq has left

  558. krauq has joined

  559. sonny has left

  560. sonny has joined

  561. Alex has left

  562. krauq has left

  563. krauq has joined

  564. eevvoor has joined

  565. pasdesushi has joined

  566. pasdesushi has left

  567. pasdesushi has joined

  568. sonny has left

  569. pasdesushi has left

  570. pasdesushi has joined

  571. sonny has joined

  572. pasdesushi has left

  573. pasdesushi has joined

  574. pasdesushi has left

  575. pasdesushi has joined

  576. andrey.g has joined

  577. krauq has left

  578. krauq has joined

  579. sonny has left

  580. paul has joined

  581. waqas has left

  582. pep.

    lovetox: same issue when you start implementing extensions

  583. lovetox

    very theoretical discussion as there is not even one extension

  584. lovetox

    but yes 10 years, and 20 different extensions and you are halfway in vcard :)

  585. Zash

    What extensions to vcard-temp have there been?

  586. pasdesushi has left

  587. pasdesushi has joined

  588. krauq has left

  589. pasdesushi has left

  590. pasdesushi has joined

  591. krauq has joined

  592. neshtaxmpp has left

  593. sonny has joined

  594. pasdesushi has left

  595. pasdesushi has joined

  596. pasdesushi has left

  597. pasdesushi has joined

  598. neshtaxmpp has joined

  599. Link Mauve

    Zash, JABBER-ID was an extension compared to vCardΒ 1 IIRC.

  600. krauq has left

  601. krauq has joined

  602. Link Mauve

    I’m not aware of anything else.

  603. pasdesushi has left

  604. pasdesushi has joined

  605. Zash

    Not sure that's the kind of extension lovetox was talking about?

  606. Link Mauve

    JABBERID* sorry.

  607. Link Mauve

    Ah, I only read the very last message before replying. :-Β°

  608. Link Mauve

    Probably not then.

  609. lovetox

    im not talking about extensions, pep. talks about extensions

  610. Zash

    JABBERID and DESC and whatever were additions compared to the never finished vcard xml variant of vcard3

  611. Link Mauve

    Right.

  612. lovetox

    im saying the vcard4 spec is big, supports many things, and i consider it very hard to support a subset

  613. lovetox

    without losing half the data on every update of course

  614. pasdesushi has left

  615. pasdesushi has joined

  616. pep.

    well I already know of 1 non-standard one :x

  617. pasdesushi has left

  618. pasdesushi has joined

  619. krauq has left

  620. krauq has joined

  621. Dele Olajide has joined

  622. pasdesushi has left

  623. Dele Olajide has left

  624. arc has left

  625. arc has joined

  626. arc has left

  627. arc has joined

  628. arc has left

  629. arc has joined

  630. krauq has left

  631. krauq has joined

  632. sonny has left

  633. mdosch has left

  634. mdosch is watching πŸ’ has left

  635. sonny has joined

  636. mdosch is watching πŸ’ has joined

  637. mdosch has joined

  638. sonny has left

  639. winfried has left

  640. winfried has joined

  641. Andrzej has left

  642. winfried has left

  643. winfried has joined

  644. Andrzej has joined

  645. Tobias has left

  646. sonny has joined

  647. krauq has left

  648. krauq has joined

  649. sonny has left

  650. Lance has left

  651. krauq has left

  652. krauq has joined

  653. mukt2 has left

  654. Lance has joined

  655. Nekit has joined

  656. arc has left

  657. arc has joined

  658. werdan has left

  659. sonny has joined

  660. mdosch has left

  661. alameyo has left

  662. alameyo has joined

  663. lovetox has left

  664. Lance has left

  665. sonny has left

  666. david has left

  667. david has joined

  668. eevvoor has left

  669. sonny has joined

  670. Neustradamus has left

  671. Neustradamus has joined

  672. sonny has left

  673. Lance has joined

  674. andrey.g has left

  675. neshtaxmpp has left

  676. neshtaxmpp has joined

  677. krauq has left

  678. krauq has joined

  679. Lance has left

  680. Lance has joined

  681. Seve has left

  682. dwd has left

  683. karoshi has left

  684. neshtaxmpp has left

  685. sonny has joined

  686. Lance has left

  687. jcbrand has left

  688. Nekit has left

  689. dwd has joined

  690. Seve has joined

  691. stpeter has joined

  692. stpeter has left

  693. sonny has left

  694. arc has left

  695. arc has joined

  696. mukt2 has joined

  697. sonny has joined

  698. alameyo has left

  699. alameyo has joined

  700. emus has left

  701. j.r has left

  702. j.r has joined

  703. debacle has left

  704. mukt2 has left

  705. paul has left

  706. arc has left

  707. arc has joined

  708. sonny has left

  709. sonny has joined

  710. Lance has joined

  711. alameyo has left

  712. alameyo has joined

  713. Mikaela has left

  714. LNJ has left

  715. lskdjf has left

  716. dwd has left