XSF Discussion - 2020-09-30

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Zash 08:16:03
pep., re https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/986 I wonder if the type thing should also be mentioned under https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0277.html#node_config
Zash 08:16:51
edhelas, have you seen that ^ btw? comments?
pep. 08:18:35
goffi gave me an ok :p
pep. 08:18:44
Zash: k, I can add that
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edhelas 08:18:44
Zash https://github.com/movim/movim/blob/master/lib/moxl/src/Stanza/Pubsub.php#L187 ?
pep. 08:20:05
I guess he meant "have you seen the PR"
Zash 08:20:16
Yes, the PR
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edhelas 08:21:32
looks good to me, i'm just wondering how I can migrate to that
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pep. 08:25:26
yeah.. migration is always "fun". Setting the type on creation for a start (to eventually stop creating type-empty nodes), then set the type on type-empty nodes when writing to them? or if you can detect signs of microblog such as presence of id='0' etc.
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pep. 08:26:08
I also need to mandate that for comment nodes right
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pep. 09:33:08
Zash, pushed! Thanks
pep. 09:33:41
Re comment nodes I'm not entirely sure.
pep. 09:34:36
I guess whether it's on PEP or PubSub doesn't change the fact that the node will be named urn:xmpp:microblog:0:comments/ID. But it might be good for consistency
pep. 09:35:43
Also I was gonna add a "MAY" set pubsub#type on PEP (anyway). For consistency always, even though it's also obvious here
pep. 09:36:07
It's probably the same code that's gonna be used here so at least saying that it's a thing may be good
Zash 09:37:00
I wonder if MUST is a bit strong (for the other thing). Is #type even widely supported?
Zash 09:37:05
The field
pep. 09:37:25
I find the XEP a bit useless without MUST tbh
pep. 09:38:34
Well, this change, rather. But the XEP becomes unusable without the MUST the second another spec uses pubsub + atom
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Zash 09:50:08
That's already a thing that's done, e.g. fetching rss/atom feeds and pushing into pubsub, or our commit (etc) notifications
pep. 09:50:36
Here you go
pep. 09:51:58
I'm not saying I don't want a tool reading "generic" pubsub+atom (whatever that means), but I definitely don't want a tool editing my pubsub+atom extension labelled "not-microblog" with microblog rules
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Zash 09:55:57
Hm. I've got a thing that derives a <body> for pubsub notifications, but it seems it bases it on the payload xmlns, not the #type
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edhelas 12:59:43
https://xkcd.com/2365/
mdosch 13:02:18
It's two days now and I still don't understand Jabber + TLS = e2e²…
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flow 13:07:20
Am I the only one who finds it remarkably that xkcd #2365 does not mention Matrix?
pep. 13:07:31
Don't jynx it
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moparisthebest 13:08:49
it doesn't mention XMPP either
edhelas 13:09:01
Jabber is the new XMPP
mdosch 13:09:05
I guess for them Jabber == XMPP…
moparisthebest 13:09:22
I assumed he meant legacy Cisco© Jabber©
pep. 13:09:59
flow, it also doesn't mention IRC fwiw
pep. 13:10:04
Well not in the picture
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mdosch 13:13:44
https://xkcd.com/1810/ didn't mention neither jabber nor xmpp.
mdosch 13:16:44
> Jabber.org (based on XMPP) is a communications protocol based on XML that was developed in 1999. The Jabber protocol could be used with Transport Layer Security (TLS) to have a secure communications service. https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2365:_Messaging_Systems
mdosch 13:17:26
Never saw that wiki before. 😂
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Neustradamus 15:32:20
Mistake, it is XMPP since 2004, the original name was Jabber in 1998. Jabber.org is an XMPP service.
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pep. 15:33:13
Neustradamus, maybe you should propose a change on that wiki?
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Zash 15:55:46
TOPIC: Another episode of the never-ending XHTML-IM vs Message Styling story
Daniel 15:56:02
Anyway I think what ever proper solution comes out of xhtml-im2 or out of body markup or what ever is independent of what we do with 393
eta 15:56:11
Daniel: agreed
pep. 15:56:19
Yeah I didn't like the proposal made during summit either tbh..
jonas’ 15:56:20
(for anyone who wants context, start here: https://logs.xmpp.org/council/2020-09-30#2020-09-30-0b1875408a3ee1bb )
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Zash 15:56:53
Random comment: I like the way that SVG has attributes mirroring CSS properties, which seems somehow easier to deal with.
Daniel 15:56:59
I mean the point raised during summit (remember summits?) of not wanting two truth is also valid and should be taken into consideration
pep. 15:57:03
Daniel, sure. Which makes me say again "What pains me most is devs thinking this is actually a good solution"
jonas’ 15:57:08
Zash, but then SVG still has CSS to make things more confusing
Daniel 15:57:08
But again independent of 393
Zash 15:57:09
sum-mit???
Kev 15:57:11
I think that is right in principle. Although I think that if you added <strippable/> (which, as noted in https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2020-June/037514.html is going to be a huge benefit to Accessibility) 393 would actually be Good Enough, rather than needing immediate replacing.
jonas’ 15:57:38
strippable, which would be a SHOULD or MUST to add? being equivalent to the opt-in I’ve been asking for all the time?
Kev 15:58:22
jonas’: I think you SHOULD add it if you determine(wave hands) that the user intended the markup - e.g. because you rendered it that way on the text input.
pep. 15:58:23
And poezio will never add the flag unfortunatley, so receivers will never know
Kev 15:58:55
Things continue to render it without the strippable, but they have to render the control characters.
pep. 15:59:07
Fortunately for receivers, poezio is not the most widely used clients out there
Kev 16:00:17
So I don't claim that by adding this 393 would be the perfect solution (to what I think is an impossible problem), merely that it makes 393 better.
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Neustradamus 16:05:19
pep.: XMPP + TLS or XMPP or other?
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pep. 16:06:42
I don't know, whatever you think is best. Maybe you can be nice with them. XMPP was after all called "Jabber" at the beginning, and the author does still use IRC so I wouldn't be surprised if they still think of XMPP as something from that time
pep. 16:07:18
Wasn't it called Jabber still when OTR came up? :P
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pep. 16:11:24
arf, stpeter replies to #986 and possibly swipes all the +1 I was gonna get :(
Neustradamus 16:11:37
pep.: https://twitter.com/neustradamus/status/1311337554793377792
pep. 16:13:18
great
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Neustradamus 16:21:44
It will be really good if we can plan a migration of mail.jabber.org to mail.xmpp.org...
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Daniel 17:19:10
pep.: if the goal is to find all mircoblogs. Doesn't it matter to what value the type is set to as long as its known and agreed upon?
pep. 17:23:31
To “Here the payload is Atom, right?” I was gonna reply “I'm saying I wouldn't define the payload as Atom, no.”.
pep. 17:23:47
The goal is..
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pep. 17:24:24
to be able to distinguish what kind of payload that is. Now it seems peter and I are disagreeing on what payload means..
pep. 17:24:32
Not especially microblog
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pep. 17:27:05
Say I publish my new spec also using pubsub + atom with different but very specific rules about how to handle Atom stuff that is also different from how the Atom spec defines things, I can, right? It's my spec.
pep. 17:27:27
Now I don't want microblog clients coming on my stuff and doing non-compliant things
pep. 17:27:37
And I guess they also wouldn't want that from me
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flow 17:31:28
IMHO pubsub#type should not define the pubsub node's payload type, but the node's type. and the node's type defines which payload(s) you may find in the node's items
flow 17:33:00
Neustradamus, did it occur to you that explainxkcd.com may be not related to xkcd? because it looks that way
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Neustradamus 19:44:32
flow: Have you looked the source? - https://xkcd.com/2365/
Neustradamus 19:44:50
The problem is here
Neustradamus 19:45:16
After the update, the picture will be updated in explainxkcd.com
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