XSF Discussion - 2020-10-04

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  325. Ge0rG Should a gateway that offers chatrooms have two identities? `<identity category="gateway" type="othernetwork" />` as well as `<identity category="conference" type="text or something" />` ?
  326. pep. That might confuse clients looking for a MUC service to creates room onto(?)
  327. Ge0rG Also, what's the status of our registry?
  328. Ge0rG pep.: Gajim refuses to join rooms that don't have a conference identity.
  329. Ge0rG Maybe only the room should have a conference identity then?
  330. pep. hmm.
  331. pep. That'd be enough to me
  332. Daniel No the server needs to have the identity too
  333. pep. why?
  334. Zash Having multiple identities is valid, albeit confusing sometimes.
  335. Daniel That's how we Auto discover muc servers
  336. Ge0rG Daniel: what if you can't create rooms on that service because it's a gateway?
  337. pep. that ^
  338. Daniel I Filter that out
  339. Zash How?
  340. Ge0rG you filter what out where?
  341. Daniel Based on the gateway identity
  342. Zash So (gateway,$type) + (conference, text|???) would make sense?
  343. eta Ge0rG, ooi, what gateway are you writing
  344. Ge0rG eta: don't ask
  345. eta (is it the matrix bridge)
  346. Daniel I look for any service that has conference but not category gateway
  347. Daniel For the group chat auto create feature
  348. pep. Ok that makes sense
  349. Zash Out of curiosity, what would happen if the base host advertised conference/text?
  350. Daniel I mean tbf I don't care if a gateway advertises as conference. That has no benefit
  351. Daniel But I catch the case when it does
  352. Daniel Because historically a lot of gateways do
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  356. lovetox indeed also gajim does use conference/text on the component to find the muc server
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  358. Ge0rG lovetox: on the component?
  359. lovetox the subdomain, or whatever
  360. lovetox muc.domain.org
  361. Ge0rG lovetox: btw, Gajim's error message is "Address does not belong to a group chat server", which is misleading given that it queries the room and not the domain
  362. lovetox the disco info item that the server returns on a disco item
  363. lovetox how do you call it?
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  366. Ge0rG lovetox: I was just confused on where you come from. I was trying to "Join Group Chat" by entering a room JID into the dialog
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  368. lovetox yeah and why is the error message confusing
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  370. lovetox or with what case could it be confused
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  372. Ge0rG lovetox: it implies that you are checking the domain JID and not the room JID. See https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2020-October/037784.html for details
  373. lovetox ok i forgot that you can run the muc service on a domain that can also host accounts
  374. lovetox then this message makes no sense for some servers
  375. Ge0rG lovetox: yup
  376. lovetox thanks
  377. Ge0rG lovetox: FYI, it was caused by https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-bifrost/issues/131
  378. lovetox Ge0rG, you write this like its a option
  379. lovetox conference/text is a MUST on rooms
  380. lovetox its not a "short-term" solution which implies that there is a different "long-term" solution
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  382. lovetox also i have the same issue open for months
  383. lovetox there is no activity on this repo for > 6 months
  384. lovetox and this is probably a one liner
  385. Ge0rG lovetox: well it might also be conference/matrix instead of conference/text, right? πŸ˜‰
  386. lovetox no
  387. lovetox then its not a MUC
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  389. Ge0rG lovetox: you might cross reference the issue then. The BifrΓΆst developers have returned!
  390. lovetox a bridge tries to emulate a MUC, then it has to respect every part of 0045
  391. Ge0rG Good point
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  393. pep. Talking about MUC, what's up with disco#info results having different names than MUC configuration? :/
  394. pep. It's quite confugins
  395. pep. It's quite confusing
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  397. lovetox https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#registrar-discocat
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  399. lovetox thats the single way a MUC is discovered, everything that does not put conference/text, is by definition not a MUC
  400. pep. Also features being sent alongside a form (that seems to reuse MUC configuration names?), will a server always send one and not the other if it's also declared as a disco feature?
  401. Zash pep.: what, exactly?
  402. Ge0rG lovetox: feel free to comment on standards@, BTW
  403. pep. Zash, for example muc#roomconfig_whois doesn't appear in disco#info, there's muc_nonanonymous and muc_semianonymous
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  405. Ge0rG lovetox: if that's the single way, why are you also checking for the MUC namespace feature?
  406. pep. (well not both at the same time)
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  408. pep. When querying disco#info, do I have to be ready to parse all variations?
  409. lovetox Ge0rG, i looked it up in Gajim code
  410. lovetox acutally i check for conference + MUC Feature
  411. lovetox which i should change
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  416. lovetox if i read this correctly
  417. lovetox https://xmpp.org/registrar/disco-categories.html#conference
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  419. lovetox conference/text says its a text conferencing service, which could mean alot
  420. lovetox so we should probably always check in addition for the MUC feature
  421. Ge0rG So it's the right thing to check for both, on the room JID?
  422. Ge0rG What will Gajim do if the room is item-not-found?
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  424. pep. Any idea how the disco thing in MUC came to be? Somebody first added their feature for their one need and a few others got added bit by bit and then somebody said "fk it let's add all the form"?
  425. lovetox Ge0rG, tell the user that the room does not exist?
  426. lovetox pep., i dont understand the problem
  427. lovetox what is the problem with muc#roomconfig_whois?
  428. lovetox its a registered config option
  429. Zash Why is there conference/irc then? Is that not allowed to speak MUC?
  430. pep. lovetox, the problem is that roomconfig_whois never appears in disco#info
  431. pep. it appears as either muc_nonanonymous or muc_semianonymous
  432. pep. Well, I don't know about "never"
  433. Zash pep.: Why is that a problem?
  434. pep. Just confusing
  435. pep. So I have to parse all the possible variations, right?
  436. Ge0rG Isn't the identity meant for users and the feature for clients?
  437. Zash The config option would enable one out of those flags
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  439. pep. Zash, yes and when discovering I'm not sure if I'm gonna get the disco feature or if in the disco result I'll have a form with the muc configuration name
  440. pep. (With a value that's anyone or moderators)
  441. Zash pep.: disco features in disco results, config options in the config form.
  442. pep. Ok so why doesn't muc#roomconfig_changesubject have a disco feature as well
  443. pep. Why is that in the form in the disco result
  444. Zash Wait `muc#roomconfig_*` in the disco result? That might be a bug.
  445. Zash Unless the XEP says to do so
  446. Zash In which case it's an inconsistency
  447. pep. I think it does, and I find it confusing
  448. pep. yes
  449. pep. https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#example-10
  450. Zash Ugh
  451. pep. Half disco features half muc#
  452. Zash Well examples aren't normative!!!!!
  453. pep. :/
  454. pep. not helpful
  455. lovetox its a bad example i think
  456. Zash pep.: note `muc#roominfo_` vs `muc#roomconfig_`
  457. pep. ouch
  458. lovetox it just wants to show that roomconfig can be in disco info
  459. pep. even more inconsistencies
  460. lovetox but they choose the one that has a feautre anyway
  461. lovetox there others that dont have one
  462. Zash Check the form registration
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  464. lovetox in this case only check for the roominfo feature
  465. lovetox why would the roomconfig feature say something different?
  466. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#registrar-formtype-roominfo doesn't have any `muc#roomconfig`
  467. Zash Bug in the example?
  468. lovetox Zash read the text below example 10
  469. lovetox it states that all roomconfig features can be included in the disco info
  470. Zash Uuuuuhu
  471. lovetox and roomconfig has their own registry
  472. lovetox so why would it in the roominfo registry
  473. Zash I'm not sure this is how field standardization is meant to work
  474. pep. So yeah that confirms I have to be able to parse and disco feature and form configuration and handle duplicates etc. in disco#info results
  475. lovetox i agree its not very nice
  476. Zash pep.: at least it's roomconfig vs roominfo
  477. lovetox no pep, just parse all roominfo attributes
  478. pep. lovetox, why?
  479. lovetox and then the roomconfig features you are interested
  480. lovetox and you dont need to handle duplicates
  481. lovetox you are not a server stanza debugger
  482. pep. lovetox, not everything is sent as a roomconfig field
  483. lovetox as i said, first you parse all "roominfo"
  484. pep. not even roominfo
  485. lovetox then only the roomconfig fields you are interested in
  486. pep. <feature var='muc_nonanonymous'/>
  487. Zash It's `muc#roominfo_changesubject` in Prosody :(
  488. pep. Zash, :D
  489. lovetox Zash, i think because i opened a issue and was confused :D
  490. Zash Indeed
  491. Zash Tho it didn't advertise that at all before
  492. Zash I feel like there's been a case where there was one of roominfo and roomconfig, which was changed to the other
  493. lovetox whats with that feature pep?
  494. lovetox of course you need also features parsing
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  497. lovetox ok lets formulate it different
  498. lovetox first parse features, then parse roominfo
  499. lovetox that is what you can depend on
  500. lovetox roomconfig, in disco info is totally optional
  501. lovetox so you dont need to parse it at all and everything should work
  502. pep. lovetox, well that means I can have both muc_nonanonymous and muc#roomconfig_whois to anyone and I need to parse both.
  503. pep. Or have one in a server implementation, the other in another server implementation
  504. lovetox no pep.
  505. pep. Not that it's really an issue, just confusing / inconsistencies
  506. lovetox the feature is not optional
  507. pep. what do you mean it's not optional
  508. lovetox if a muc is nonanonymous
  509. pep. Ok so a server has to use the feature if it exists?
  510. lovetox is MUST include <feature var='muc_nonanonymous'/>
  511. lovetox server?
  512. lovetox i thought we are talking about rooms
  513. pep. MUC service
  514. pep. Or rooms, whatever
  515. pep. server-side
  516. lovetox if you query a *room*
  517. pep. we're talking about the same thing
  518. lovetox the answer MUST include that feature
  519. pep. k
  520. lovetox if it applys to the room
  521. Zash So muc#roominfo is a superset that includes muc#roomconfig :/
  522. lovetox so there is no reason in the world why you ever search for roomconfig_whois
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  524. lovetox pep. i would say Gajim displays every important information of a muc in its muc join dialog
  525. lovetox and the only time i check for roomconfig is for muc#roomconfig_roomname
  526. lovetox im not sure why that is, but i probably had a reason
  527. lovetox its muc#roomconfig_roomname > identity.name -> localpart
  528. lovetox for naming a groupchat
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  544. pep. lovetox, do you also have the mam config hack btw? :x
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  547. pep. Servers didn't agree on a config value apparently
  548. pep. https://github.com/iNPUTmice/Conversations/blob/fa752b596d7fba41a0b62011cd91a11af84b1cd6/src/main/java/eu/siacs/conversations/generator/IqGenerator.java#L527
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  561. lovetox why is that a hack?
  562. lovetox its a custom config option for prosody
  563. lovetox and yes Gajim uses that
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  597. edhelas lovetox we can specify one in the XEP and simply the implementations to follow the standards
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  599. Zash I wonder if they've read https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0100.html
  600. Zash I wonder if it's relevant
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  624. lovetox edhelas, yes we can, and it would be easier, but i would not conisder everything thats not in a standard a hack
  625. pep. Just that consistency is good, especially when it's the exact same feature :p
  626. Zash I wanna change it from a boolean to a timedelta of some sort, ie retention period.
  627. pep. with a "max"? :P
  628. Holger Zash: For MUC MAM specifically?
  629. Zash pep.: I guess a range from 'disabled' to a server-wide maximum.
  630. Zash Holger: Well, yes, but probably MAM too at some point..
  631. Holger (FWIW I tried to suggest standardizing a field name but failed.)
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  633. Zash Somewhat related to me wanting to turn the 'persistent' boolean into a similar timedelta.
  634. pep. Holger, !! What failed
  635. Holger Zash: I see. Haven't seen demand for such a feature yet. (And would not be keen on implementing it.)
  636. pep. Zash, I guess currently it's a deployment policy anyway
  637. Zash Yeah
  638. pep. GC'd after t time of inactivity or sth
  639. Zash pep.: Room persistence? Yeah, instead of choosing between "room destroyed the moment your phone blips" and "exists forever", the room would be destroyed after n days of emptyness.
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  642. Holger pep.: I think people disagreed on whether it needs a separate flag at all (as opposed to overloading the flag for public HTML logging). And those who agreed didn't agree on how to proceed (just add it to 0045 vs. tell 'the registrar' or something).
  643. Holger Maybe I should have another go.
  644. Zash Public HTML logging _is_ subtly different.
  645. pep. I guess that'd be yet another thing for the registrar
  646. pep. And yeah HTML logging is different
  647. Holger Zash: Absolutely.
  648. Zash Altho, if you allow anonymous MAM access without joining, it's very close
  649. pep. I'm support such a PR
  650. Holger Zash: If.
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  652. pep. I'd support such a PR
  653. Zash There's something of a scale :)
  654. Holger Zash: 0313 says: > A MUC archive MUST check that the user requesting the archive has the right to enter it at the time of the query and only allow access if so.
  655. pep. Doesn't mean there can't be more checks?
  656. Zash Holger: But does it say that you can't restrict it further?
  657. pep. Maybe that should be made more explicit
  658. Zash Anything not forbidden is allowed! :D
  659. Zash I think limiting MAM access to current participants is a thing one might want.
  660. Zash And also limits based on affiliation, e.g. limit to members/admins or somesuch.
  661. Zash or <payment-required/>
  662. pep. I'd say in public channels I might want to restrict to joined participants :/
  663. Zash Mmmmmmmoar settings
  664. pep. Design guidelines
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  687. pep. MAM actually explicitely says "In a members-only chat room, only owners, admins or members can query a room archive." right after that sentence
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  689. Zash That's saying the same as "only those who can join has access", right?
  690. pep. "[..] a MUC archive MAY further limit access based on other criteria as part of the deployment policy."
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