XSF Discussion - 2020-10-04

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  325. Ge0rG

    Should a gateway that offers chatrooms have two identities? `<identity category="gateway" type="othernetwork" />` as well as `<identity category="conference" type="text or something" />` ?

  326. pep.

    That might confuse clients looking for a MUC service to creates room onto(?)

  327. Ge0rG

    Also, what's the status of our registry?

  328. Ge0rG

    pep.: Gajim refuses to join rooms that don't have a conference identity.

  329. Ge0rG

    Maybe only the room should have a conference identity then?

  330. pep.


  331. pep.

    That'd be enough to me

  332. Daniel

    No the server needs to have the identity too

  333. pep.


  334. Zash

    Having multiple identities is valid, albeit confusing sometimes.

  335. Daniel

    That's how we Auto discover muc servers

  336. Ge0rG

    Daniel: what if you can't create rooms on that service because it's a gateway?

  337. pep.

    that ^

  338. Daniel

    I Filter that out

  339. Zash


  340. Ge0rG

    you filter what out where?

  341. Daniel

    Based on the gateway identity

  342. Zash

    So (gateway,$type) + (conference, text|???) would make sense?

  343. eta

    Ge0rG, ooi, what gateway are you writing

  344. Ge0rG

    eta: don't ask

  345. eta

    (is it the matrix bridge)

  346. Daniel

    I look for any service that has conference but not category gateway

  347. Daniel

    For the group chat auto create feature

  348. pep.

    Ok that makes sense

  349. Zash

    Out of curiosity, what would happen if the base host advertised conference/text?

  350. Daniel

    I mean tbf I don't care if a gateway advertises as conference. That has no benefit

  351. Daniel

    But I catch the case when it does

  352. Daniel

    Because historically a lot of gateways do

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  356. lovetox

    indeed also gajim does use conference/text on the component to find the muc server

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  358. Ge0rG

    lovetox: on the component?

  359. lovetox

    the subdomain, or whatever

  360. lovetox


  361. Ge0rG

    lovetox: btw, Gajim's error message is "Address does not belong to a group chat server", which is misleading given that it queries the room and not the domain

  362. lovetox

    the disco info item that the server returns on a disco item

  363. lovetox

    how do you call it?

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  366. Ge0rG

    lovetox: I was just confused on where you come from. I was trying to "Join Group Chat" by entering a room JID into the dialog

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  368. lovetox

    yeah and why is the error message confusing

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  370. lovetox

    or with what case could it be confused

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  372. Ge0rG

    lovetox: it implies that you are checking the domain JID and not the room JID. See https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2020-October/037784.html for details

  373. lovetox

    ok i forgot that you can run the muc service on a domain that can also host accounts

  374. lovetox

    then this message makes no sense for some servers

  375. Ge0rG

    lovetox: yup

  376. lovetox


  377. Ge0rG

    lovetox: FYI, it was caused by https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-bifrost/issues/131

  378. lovetox

    Ge0rG, you write this like its a option

  379. lovetox

    conference/text is a MUST on rooms

  380. lovetox

    its not a "short-term" solution which implies that there is a different "long-term" solution

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  382. lovetox

    also i have the same issue open for months

  383. lovetox

    there is no activity on this repo for > 6 months

  384. lovetox

    and this is probably a one liner

  385. Ge0rG

    lovetox: well it might also be conference/matrix instead of conference/text, right? ๐Ÿ˜‰

  386. lovetox


  387. lovetox

    then its not a MUC

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  389. Ge0rG

    lovetox: you might cross reference the issue then. The Bifrรถst developers have returned!

  390. lovetox

    a bridge tries to emulate a MUC, then it has to respect every part of 0045

  391. Ge0rG

    Good point

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  393. pep.

    Talking about MUC, what's up with disco#info results having different names than MUC configuration? :/

  394. pep.

    It's quite confugins

  395. pep.

    It's quite confusing

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  397. lovetox


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  399. lovetox

    thats the single way a MUC is discovered, everything that does not put conference/text, is by definition not a MUC

  400. pep.

    Also features being sent alongside a form (that seems to reuse MUC configuration names?), will a server always send one and not the other if it's also declared as a disco feature?

  401. Zash

    pep.: what, exactly?

  402. Ge0rG

    lovetox: feel free to comment on standards@, BTW

  403. pep.

    Zash, for example muc#roomconfig_whois doesn't appear in disco#info, there's muc_nonanonymous and muc_semianonymous

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  405. Ge0rG

    lovetox: if that's the single way, why are you also checking for the MUC namespace feature?

  406. pep.

    (well not both at the same time)

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  408. pep.

    When querying disco#info, do I have to be ready to parse all variations?

  409. lovetox

    Ge0rG, i looked it up in Gajim code

  410. lovetox

    acutally i check for conference + MUC Feature

  411. lovetox

    which i should change

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  416. lovetox

    if i read this correctly

  417. lovetox


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  419. lovetox

    conference/text says its a text conferencing service, which could mean alot

  420. lovetox

    so we should probably always check in addition for the MUC feature

  421. Ge0rG

    So it's the right thing to check for both, on the room JID?

  422. Ge0rG

    What will Gajim do if the room is item-not-found?

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  424. pep.

    Any idea how the disco thing in MUC came to be? Somebody first added their feature for their one need and a few others got added bit by bit and then somebody said "fk it let's add all the form"?

  425. lovetox

    Ge0rG, tell the user that the room does not exist?

  426. lovetox

    pep., i dont understand the problem

  427. lovetox

    what is the problem with muc#roomconfig_whois?

  428. lovetox

    its a registered config option

  429. Zash

    Why is there conference/irc then? Is that not allowed to speak MUC?

  430. pep.

    lovetox, the problem is that roomconfig_whois never appears in disco#info

  431. pep.

    it appears as either muc_nonanonymous or muc_semianonymous

  432. pep.

    Well, I don't know about "never"

  433. Zash

    pep.: Why is that a problem?

  434. pep.

    Just confusing

  435. pep.

    So I have to parse all the possible variations, right?

  436. Ge0rG

    Isn't the identity meant for users and the feature for clients?

  437. Zash

    The config option would enable one out of those flags

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  439. pep.

    Zash, yes and when discovering I'm not sure if I'm gonna get the disco feature or if in the disco result I'll have a form with the muc configuration name

  440. pep.

    (With a value that's anyone or moderators)

  441. Zash

    pep.: disco features in disco results, config options in the config form.

  442. pep.

    Ok so why doesn't muc#roomconfig_changesubject have a disco feature as well

  443. pep.

    Why is that in the form in the disco result

  444. Zash

    Wait `muc#roomconfig_*` in the disco result? That might be a bug.

  445. Zash

    Unless the XEP says to do so

  446. Zash

    In which case it's an inconsistency

  447. pep.

    I think it does, and I find it confusing

  448. pep.


  449. pep.


  450. Zash


  451. pep.

    Half disco features half muc#

  452. Zash

    Well examples aren't normative!!!!!

  453. pep.


  454. pep.

    not helpful

  455. lovetox

    its a bad example i think

  456. Zash

    pep.: note `muc#roominfo_` vs `muc#roomconfig_`

  457. pep.


  458. lovetox

    it just wants to show that roomconfig can be in disco info

  459. pep.

    even more inconsistencies

  460. lovetox

    but they choose the one that has a feautre anyway

  461. lovetox

    there others that dont have one

  462. Zash

    Check the form registration

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  464. lovetox

    in this case only check for the roominfo feature

  465. lovetox

    why would the roomconfig feature say something different?

  466. Zash

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#registrar-formtype-roominfo doesn't have any `muc#roomconfig`

  467. Zash

    Bug in the example?

  468. lovetox

    Zash read the text below example 10

  469. lovetox

    it states that all roomconfig features can be included in the disco info

  470. Zash


  471. lovetox

    and roomconfig has their own registry

  472. lovetox

    so why would it in the roominfo registry

  473. Zash

    I'm not sure this is how field standardization is meant to work

  474. pep.

    So yeah that confirms I have to be able to parse and disco feature and form configuration and handle duplicates etc. in disco#info results

  475. lovetox

    i agree its not very nice

  476. Zash

    pep.: at least it's roomconfig vs roominfo

  477. lovetox

    no pep, just parse all roominfo attributes

  478. pep.

    lovetox, why?

  479. lovetox

    and then the roomconfig features you are interested

  480. lovetox

    and you dont need to handle duplicates

  481. lovetox

    you are not a server stanza debugger

  482. pep.

    lovetox, not everything is sent as a roomconfig field

  483. lovetox

    as i said, first you parse all "roominfo"

  484. pep.

    not even roominfo

  485. lovetox

    then only the roomconfig fields you are interested in

  486. pep.

    <feature var='muc_nonanonymous'/>

  487. Zash

    It's `muc#roominfo_changesubject` in Prosody :(

  488. pep.

    Zash, :D

  489. lovetox

    Zash, i think because i opened a issue and was confused :D

  490. Zash


  491. Zash

    Tho it didn't advertise that at all before

  492. Zash

    I feel like there's been a case where there was one of roominfo and roomconfig, which was changed to the other

  493. lovetox

    whats with that feature pep?

  494. lovetox

    of course you need also features parsing

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  497. lovetox

    ok lets formulate it different

  498. lovetox

    first parse features, then parse roominfo

  499. lovetox

    that is what you can depend on

  500. lovetox

    roomconfig, in disco info is totally optional

  501. lovetox

    so you dont need to parse it at all and everything should work

  502. pep.

    lovetox, well that means I can have both muc_nonanonymous and muc#roomconfig_whois to anyone and I need to parse both.

  503. pep.

    Or have one in a server implementation, the other in another server implementation

  504. lovetox

    no pep.

  505. pep.

    Not that it's really an issue, just confusing / inconsistencies

  506. lovetox

    the feature is not optional

  507. pep.

    what do you mean it's not optional

  508. lovetox

    if a muc is nonanonymous

  509. pep.

    Ok so a server has to use the feature if it exists?

  510. lovetox

    is MUST include <feature var='muc_nonanonymous'/>

  511. lovetox


  512. lovetox

    i thought we are talking about rooms

  513. pep.

    MUC service

  514. pep.

    Or rooms, whatever

  515. pep.


  516. lovetox

    if you query a *room*

  517. pep.

    we're talking about the same thing

  518. lovetox

    the answer MUST include that feature

  519. pep.


  520. lovetox

    if it applys to the room

  521. Zash

    So muc#roominfo is a superset that includes muc#roomconfig :/

  522. lovetox

    so there is no reason in the world why you ever search for roomconfig_whois

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  524. lovetox

    pep. i would say Gajim displays every important information of a muc in its muc join dialog

  525. lovetox

    and the only time i check for roomconfig is for muc#roomconfig_roomname

  526. lovetox

    im not sure why that is, but i probably had a reason

  527. lovetox

    its muc#roomconfig_roomname > identity.name -> localpart

  528. lovetox

    for naming a groupchat

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  544. pep.

    lovetox, do you also have the mam config hack btw? :x

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  547. pep.

    Servers didn't agree on a config value apparently

  548. pep.


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  561. lovetox

    why is that a hack?

  562. lovetox

    its a custom config option for prosody

  563. lovetox

    and yes Gajim uses that

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  597. edhelas

    lovetox we can specify one in the XEP and simply the implementations to follow the standards

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  599. Zash

    I wonder if they've read https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0100.html

  600. Zash

    I wonder if it's relevant

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  624. lovetox

    edhelas, yes we can, and it would be easier, but i would not conisder everything thats not in a standard a hack

  625. pep.

    Just that consistency is good, especially when it's the exact same feature :p

  626. Zash

    I wanna change it from a boolean to a timedelta of some sort, ie retention period.

  627. pep.

    with a "max"? :P

  628. Holger

    Zash: For MUC MAM specifically?

  629. Zash

    pep.: I guess a range from 'disabled' to a server-wide maximum.

  630. Zash

    Holger: Well, yes, but probably MAM too at some point..

  631. Holger

    (FWIW I tried to suggest standardizing a field name but failed.)

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  633. Zash

    Somewhat related to me wanting to turn the 'persistent' boolean into a similar timedelta.

  634. pep.

    Holger, !! What failed

  635. Holger

    Zash: I see. Haven't seen demand for such a feature yet. (And would not be keen on implementing it.)

  636. pep.

    Zash, I guess currently it's a deployment policy anyway

  637. Zash


  638. pep.

    GC'd after t time of inactivity or sth

  639. Zash

    pep.: Room persistence? Yeah, instead of choosing between "room destroyed the moment your phone blips" and "exists forever", the room would be destroyed after n days of emptyness.

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  642. Holger

    pep.: I think people disagreed on whether it needs a separate flag at all (as opposed to overloading the flag for public HTML logging). And those who agreed didn't agree on how to proceed (just add it to 0045 vs. tell 'the registrar' or something).

  643. Holger

    Maybe I should have another go.

  644. Zash

    Public HTML logging _is_ subtly different.

  645. pep.

    I guess that'd be yet another thing for the registrar

  646. pep.

    And yeah HTML logging is different

  647. Holger

    Zash: Absolutely.

  648. Zash

    Altho, if you allow anonymous MAM access without joining, it's very close

  649. pep.

    I'm support such a PR

  650. Holger

    Zash: If.

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  652. pep.

    I'd support such a PR

  653. Zash

    There's something of a scale :)

  654. Holger

    Zash: 0313 says: > A MUC archive MUST check that the user requesting the archive has the right to enter it at the time of the query and only allow access if so.

  655. pep.

    Doesn't mean there can't be more checks?

  656. Zash

    Holger: But does it say that you can't restrict it further?

  657. pep.

    Maybe that should be made more explicit

  658. Zash

    Anything not forbidden is allowed! :D

  659. Zash

    I think limiting MAM access to current participants is a thing one might want.

  660. Zash

    And also limits based on affiliation, e.g. limit to members/admins or somesuch.

  661. Zash

    or <payment-required/>

  662. pep.

    I'd say in public channels I might want to restrict to joined participants :/

  663. Zash

    Mmmmmmmoar settings

  664. pep.

    Design guidelines

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  687. pep.

    MAM actually explicitely says "In a members-only chat room, only owners, admins or members can query a room archive." right after that sentence

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  689. Zash

    That's saying the same as "only those who can join has access", right?

  690. pep.

    "[..] a MUC archive MAY further limit access based on other criteria as part of the deployment policy."

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