XSF Discussion - 2020-10-08

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  97. jcbrand

    This is how shared Twitter accounts work. It's not some policy we came up with

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  141. emus

    jcbrand: I know

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  152. Ge0rG

    what's the xmpp compliance status of Psi / Psi+?

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  166. emus

    Ge0rG: How do you come to the question?

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  170. Ge0rG

    emus: I was asked whether Psi is a viable XMPP client for beginners.

  171. Daniel

    Ge0rG, i think the unreleased version / dev version of Psi has some good features

  172. Daniel

    but it hasn’t been released yet. so that makes it difficult for beginners

  173. Ge0rG

    Daniel: thanks.

  174. Ge0rG

    And the last release is outdated? Does it have MAM / Carbons at least?

  175. dwd

    Ge0rG, It's the same classic Psi UX. Which is to say, old-fashioned and very "FLOSS". So even if it were highly compliant I wouldn't recommend it to a beginner.

  176. dwd

    Ge0rG, Unless we're talking a beginner server developer, because its debugging toolkit is still the best of the clients.

  177. emus

    Ge0rG: Why not... yax.im? πŸ˜…

  178. flow

    Daniel, Psi 1.5 was relased a month ago

  179. Ge0rG

    it's about IETF members who don't want to bother with xmpp as their primary job.

  180. flow

    Daniel, I wonder if it includes the "good features" you have in mind

  181. dwd

    Ge0rG, Oh, no. What platform are they running on?

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  183. Ge0rG

    emus: I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that my non-commercial public xmpp server would be a replacement for a client

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  186. Ge0rG

    I don't even offer a converse.js with login.

  187. emus

    Ge0rG: I meant you app

  188. Ge0rG

    dwd: all of them?

  189. Ge0rG

    emus: sorry, I've got no time for games

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  191. dwd

    I'd go with Matt's recommendation of BeagleIM for Mac. Maybe Swift for Windows? Gajim or Dino for Linux.

  192. Ge0rG

    dwd: we've recommended Gajim for Linux and Windows. Sorry.

  193. dwd

    Oh, I use Gajim on Windows as well, no need to apologise.

  194. Ge0rG

    flow: https://github.com/psi-im/psi/releases/tag/1.5 doesn't sound reassuring

  195. flow

    Ge0rG, true

  196. flow

    I wonder if the reason for psi+'s existence still exists :) sadly rion is not around to ask

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  198. dwd

    Ge0rG, I think a web client needs to be in the recommendations too. I assume ConverseJS, but I'm not sure what else we have in this space currently.

  199. Ge0rG

    dwd: Converse.js was on the suggestion list, yes.

  200. Ge0rG

    (the list I asked for on this channel four weeks ago)

  201. dwd

    Oh, good - didn't see the request or the list.

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  203. emus

    > emus: sorry, I've got no time for games I cannot follow, but okay

  204. Ge0rG

    emus: I asked for the feature set of Psi. You answered with a client for a different platform

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  206. emus


  207. Ge0rG

    emus: and please be assured, I'm the first person to suggest yaxim where it fits.

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  212. Ge0rG

    ok, thanks for the feedback. I've written a response now.

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  241. emus

    moparisthebest: https://twitter.com/xmpp/status/1314147875144839169?s=20

  242. Zash


  243. MattJ

    I just submitted https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/817 to fix a small issue in the newsletter

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  246. emus

    MattJ: Thanks

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  319. pep.

    I'm on a train with bad connectivity, I'll pass today's meeting. I don't think we had anything special to discuss anyway?

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  324. Guus

    well, there wasn't an agenda, so nothing pressing at the very least, I guess

  325. Guus

    I don't mind skipping this weeks meeting

  326. Seve

    Me neither

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  339. MattJ

    Sounds good to m... oh wait

  340. Seve


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  371. wurstsalat

    Link Mauve, it would be nice to see https://github.com/pulkomandy/xmpp-doap/pull/6/files merged! at the moment, I have to send potential implementors to other projects to find 'valid' examples :)

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  373. lskdjf

    what would be even awesomer to see, is if XEPs would have a list of implementing clients next to them based on the information from the project doap files πŸ˜‡

  374. Zash

    lskdjf: That was the plan along actually

  375. emus

    wurstsalat: are there sone generators to xml?

  376. emus

    for monal

  377. pep.

    not at the moment but it wouldn't be that hard I guess? otherwise for now take exemple on an existing file it's pretty straightforward

  378. wurstsalat

    emus, I don’t think there are generators

  379. lskdjf

    > lskdjf: That was the plan along actually Zash I know, but I wanted to mention that I'm eagerly awaiting it πŸ˜‰

  380. wurstsalat

    but yes, simply take the file of some other project and modify it to your needs

  381. emus

    wurstsalat: So I have to do that by hand πŸ˜₯

  382. emus

    yes good piint

  383. wurstsalat

    thing is: you have to do it once in a single place, and it can be used to update stuff elsewhere

  384. wurstsalat

    see https://gajim.org/support/extensions/ (which gets updated automagically)

  385. emus


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  389. pep.

    wurstsalat: maybe the complete/partial keywords could be removed in the rendered version and only colors kept, on the xep number for exemple

  390. wurstsalat

    pep., I tried that, but didn’t like the look..

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  392. Zash

    also (color-)blind readability

  393. wurstsalat

    coloring links differently is also a thing which I wanted to avoid

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  420. rion

    Hey guys. I was looking at jingle file transfer over webrtc datachannel but decided to switch to QUIC. Is there any work in progress XEPs for that?

  421. rion

    Hey guys. I was looking at jingle file transfer over webrtc datachannel but decided to switch to QUIC. Is there any work in progress XEP for that?

  422. moparisthebest

    rion, not that I know of but I've been closely following esni/ech/https-svc/srv2 etc etc and when those settled down a bit planned to introduce a new xep using those to discover direct TLS and also QUIC services

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  426. moparisthebest

    you can get to most of those from https://tlswg.org/draft-ietf-tls-esni/draft-ietf-tls-esni.html

  427. rion

    according the latest specs it's not compatible with TURN but we still have socks5. So I guess it's just perfect. especially taking into account jingle supports transports fallback

  428. rion

    according the latest specs QUIC is not compatible with TURN but we still have socks5. So I guess it's just perfect. especially taking into account jingle supports transports fallback

  429. rion

    moparisthebest: thanks, I'll take a look.

  430. rion

    In any case I'll try to implement it for jingle and if it goes well I'll design a XEP.

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  433. rion

    I hope Belarus won't follow Russia forbidding TLS 1.3 / esni and other cool things

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  435. rion

    otherwise I'll have to consider to move somewhere else.

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  437. flow

    rion, since you are here, I was previously wondering if the reason for psi+'s existence still exists?

  438. flow

    or to ask differently: would you recommend me to look into psi or psi+?

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  440. rion

    flow: nope. psi+ is just a brand kept from the previous fork. nothing more.

  441. flow

    rion, is there (still) any functional difference between psi and psi+?

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  444. rion

    all patches were merged to Psi

  445. jonas’

    Ge0rG, ^

  446. flow

    allright, time to emerge psi then :)

  447. rion

    Gentoo? if doesn't work well from portage, let me know. I'm a maintainer there.

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  449. flow

    yes, will do

  450. rion

    try 9999

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  453. rion

    I also have an overlay which is usually has all the recent changes to psi ebuild. iirc not everything is merged to the portage

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  456. rion

    flow: oh yes. plugins are available on overlay only. and still can't find some spare time to migrate ebuild to use cmake for them which is supported for a long time. qmake builds aren't well maintained anymore.

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  459. rion

    flow: oh yes. plugins are available in the overlay only. and still can't find some spare time to migrate ebuild to use cmake for them which is supported for a long time. qmake builds aren't well maintained anymore.

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  478. Kev

    The old Psi maintainers were bastards who didn't like merging patches. I hear new management is nicer ;)

  479. Kev

    (For anyone who doesn't know the history and thinks I'm attacking someone, I was maintainer at the time)

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  481. Zash

    Kev: Refering to your past self in plural, is that good? :P

  482. Kev

    We think so.

  483. Zash

    I guess you're in majority then

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  486. rion

    Kev: that's fine, not all those patches were well designed. I fixed some before merging and merged some others with closed eyes because people like those features.

  487. Kev


  488. rion

    Unfortunately in open source it's quite hard to follow high standards. Contributors just go away when you say their patches do not look good..

  489. rion

    and then you realize you don't time to fix everything on your own.

  490. MattJ

    Tip: put all those things in a separate repository and call it "community maintained"

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  492. dwd

    What grade of trolling would it be to turn up in the QUIC WG and start making noise about whether or not it's compatible with SOCKS5?

  493. Zash

    You can even put your own hacky experiments in there.. oh whops now it's deployed in production in thousands of servers.

  494. dwd

    (It probably is assuming it's layered over UDP)

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  499. Zash

    dwd: That reads a bit like "How do I make this road drive itself cross-country?"

  500. Zash

    Wait is there UDP SOCKS5?

  501. Zash


  502. Zash

    Never mind me then

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  535. dwd

    Zash, Yeah, it's the big advantage over SOCKS4.

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  671. Ge0rG

    And nobody asked rion for the currently supported set of features.

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