XSF Discussion - 2020-10-19

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  267. lovetox

    question regarding https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0077.html#example-6

  268. lovetox

    Username conflict

  269. lovetox

    why is the error in the example type=cancel?

  270. lovetox

    would type=modify not fit much better?

  271. Zash


  272. Ge0rG


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  274. lovetox

    it seems really important for IBR

  275. lovetox

    because if it returns the register form with an error, and type = modify

  276. lovetox

    i would not request the form again

  277. lovetox

    instead show the form attached to the error iq

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  280. jonas’

    the form may not be included in the IQ error reply.

  281. lovetox

    then i will not display it

  282. lovetox

    and need to request it again

  283. lovetox

    but especially for form errors it is nice to attach the form

  284. Guus

    Even if the suggested modification makes sense, I wonder if changing that now, given that this was defined 15 years ago, would hurt more than it'd bring benefits.

  285. lovetox

    so we have error and the corresponding form with the values

  286. lovetox

    in one single place

  287. lovetox

    Guus, i thought examples are not normative, so can be changed any time

  288. Guus

    Not being normative doesn't mean 'that's how people have been doing it' - I'm not sure if that's actually the case, though, but I'd least consider that such a change might introduce issues for existing implementations.

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  290. lovetox

    i dont care much about changing it, but i want to write my code so that if some server dev someday cares about a good user experience for ibr, its at least possible

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  295. Ge0rG

    We can't change a Final XEP, can we?

  296. lovetox

    but i dont see how this would cause any problem for an implementation

  297. lovetox

    if a implementation follows the RFC

  298. lovetox

    cancel -- do not retry (the error cannot be remedied)

  299. lovetox

    this would mean a client would not let a user try again on a username conflict

  300. lovetox

    and i guess we can all guess this is very unlikely

  301. lovetox

    so every client already ignores the type

  302. Ge0rG

    lovetox: unless a client is hardcoded to treat type=cancel for retry ;)

  303. lovetox

    then it would not follow the RFC, as it says *do not retry* :D

  304. Ge0rG

    XEP beats RFC

  305. lovetox

    like never, you had one try to register at this server and you failed

  306. eta

    lovetox: haha

  307. Ge0rG

    > Note: Once an XMPP Extension Protocol has been advanced to a status of Final, every effort shall be made to limit the scope of modifications; in particular, backwards-incompatible changes shall not be made. However, limited modifications may be made as long as they are optional, backwards-compatible extensions rather than modifications to the core protocol itself. Therefore, a Final protocol is safe for deployment in mission-critical applications. Good luck! ;)

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  310. Zash

    Did the '77 author perhaps simply copy https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#stanzas-error-conditions-conflict

  311. Zash

    Says <conflict> SHOULD go with "cancel"

  312. eta

    Ge0rG: time for a new XEP

  313. Zash


  314. Zash


  315. eta

    Best Practices for In-Band Registration :p

  316. Zash


  317. Ge0rG

    eta: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0389.html

  318. eta

    I like IBR though :c

  319. lovetox

    does a server support 0389?

  320. Zash

    Does a client support 0389?

  321. eta

    answers: no

  322. Ge0rG

    chicken-egg IBR

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  326. lovetox

    i would be willing to implement it, if some server dev also would work on the server side

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  328. Zash

    I might have half an implementation somewhere

  329. Zash

    However I imagine it predatest the latest updates and will need some changes

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  331. Zash

    Mmmmmm, can haz bookmarks 2 plz?

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  338. Zash investigates potentially exponential bookmark duplication bug

  339. Guus


  340. jonas’


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  354. lovetox

    Zash, Gajim has a bookmarks 2 impl

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  356. lovetox

    if you want to test, there is a switch in advanced config editor to force enable it

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  368. marc

    lovetox: i have a wip implementation for 389

  369. marc

    for ejabberd

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  371. marc

    The plan is to implement basic registration and enhance it later with token / 401

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  375. lovetox

    good to know, i ping you once i have time to work on it

  376. marc

    yep, my client is implemented with aioxmpp

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  422. emus

    Why is the /me command actually part of the compliance suite?

  423. Zash

    It's expected of clients to support it

  424. Ge0rG

    emus: because it's my favorite command!

  425. emus understands 🙂

  426. Zash

    Because you didn't invent a XEP to replace it!!1!1!1eleventyeleven!

  427. emus

    just out of interest because I was wondering why this goes to the level of good experience

  428. emus

    (like group chat)

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  430. marc

    > just out of interest because I was wondering why this goes to the level of good experience > (like group chat) +1 :)

  431. Ge0rG

    It's about creating a consistent IM experience over different clients.

  432. Ge0rG

    That and Consistent Colors were the most contested additions

  433. Ge0rG

    I'll try to sneak in some more UX this year

  434. Ge0rG

    marc: speaking of which, how do we proceed with 0401?

  435. marc

    Ge0rG: as mentioned before, I have a poc for 389 for ejabberd

  436. marc

    Once that's done I will continue with 401

  437. marc

    Unfortunately, the token thing is not that easy with ejabberd

  438. Ge0rG

    marc: prosody has implemented the token thing already, even both variants AFAICT.

  439. emus

    Sure, it's not that I dont like it

  440. marc

    Ge0rG: not based on 389 I guess?

  441. Ge0rG

    marc: no, because of chicken and eggs

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  443. marc

    Yes, I don't like the solo action of prosedy

  444. Ge0rG

    The solo action of fixing a long standing problem?

  445. Ge0rG

    Together with two (three?) client implementations?

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  447. Ge0rG

    marc: when we implemented 401, we had the impression that there is no implementation yet of it

  448. marc

    I don't see lots of new users just because this solo action ;)

  449. Ge0rG

    My goal was to make it fly with minimal new protocol, not to reinvent all of IBR

  450. Ge0rG

    marc: have you seen the new prosody invitation page?

  451. marc

    Ge0rG, maybe, I don't remeber... I saw something some time ago

  452. marc


  453. Ge0rG


  454. Ge0rG

    marc: live install on https://xmpp-trial1.ietf.org/

  455. marc

    Ge0rG, nice page :)

  456. Ge0rG

    MattJ: ⬆️👍

  457. marc

    I don't like to approach and the protocol but the page is nice

  458. marc

    Also the blog post

  459. Ge0rG

    marc: users don't care about the protocol

  460. marc

    Ge0rG, sure, I'm not a user ;)

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  462. MattJ

    Mistake #1 :)

  463. Ge0rG

    marc: why aren't you using MIX yet, then?

  464. marc

    MattJ, I'm a user but I care about the protocol

  465. MattJ

    So do I

  466. marc

    Ge0rG, sorry but I don't want to waste my little time about useless discussions (MIX)

  467. Ge0rG

    marc: thanks for the excellent idea of using "I don't care about protocol" as my Council 2021 slogan!

  468. MattJ

    I care about the protocol, I also care about getting things done

  469. MattJ

    Where is the new XEP-0401, since the previous attempt at fixing it was reverted?

  470. marc

    MattJ, I sent you a proposal quite some time ago but you never responded

  471. marc

    No blaming, just saying

  472. MattJ

    I think I approved it verbally after looking through?

  473. marc

    No, you had no time

  474. MattJ

    In any case, please don't hold off a new revision because of me

  475. MattJ

    I am sure feedback will come if there are still improvements to be made

  476. marc

    Ge0rG, again, no time for trolling sorry

  477. Ge0rG

    marc: I'm not trolling

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  479. Zash

    Hey if I could say "Bring back 2006-era XMPP" and get on Council, why not that?

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  482. Ge0rG

    marc: I'd love to have a working and documented way to invite people to xmpp. So far I have to choose between those two, and you know how I chose

  483. marc


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  485. Ge0rG

    Working or documented

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  487. marc

    Yep, either we have to change it later then or you have to document it properly

  488. MattJ

    The current implementation is working and documented

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  491. marc

    Then everything is fine?

  492. Ge0rG

    marc: like this? https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/874

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  494. Ge0rG

    Now I'm trolling

  495. Zash

    Only Daniel responded to that thread?

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  499. Ge0rG

    I could also fork 0401 or make a new "Using 0401 with a pre IBR IQ" XEP. But that would require 0401 to be in a stable state

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  502. marc

    Ge0rG, what is your question?

  503. Ge0rG

    > marc: speaking of which, how do we proceed with 0401?

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  505. marc

    Ge0rG, you know my standpoint, no?

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  509. MattJ

    As I see it, the XEP was stalled with no implementations and unanswered questions. Out of necessity we figured out a solution, implemented it in 4 clients and 1 server. The update wasn't accepted, and the XEP has not been updated since.

  510. Ge0rG

    marc: so we are not going to reach agreement?

  511. MattJ

    The preauth iq was chosen for maximum compatibility with all current and future IBR mechanisms

  512. jonas’

    MattJ, appeal to council to transfer authorship of the XEP and get it documented?

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  515. marc

    Ge0rG, MattJ I don't care what you guys do but I don't like the approach so I won't spend on it

  516. Ge0rG

    marc: I'd like to document our approach under the XSF umbrella

  517. marc

    But document it if you like

  518. marc

    Ge0rG, sure, I won't block it

  519. marc

    Why would I?

  520. Ge0rG

    marc: you already did

  521. marc

    Ge0rG, you should take authorship in that case then?

  522. MattJ

    marc: it matters to me if we don't get an ejabberd implementation

  523. marc

    MattJ, I'm not an ejabberd maintainer nor regular dev

  524. marc

    I'm working on 389 - that's it

  525. MattJ

    I care less about documentation, it is already documented on xmpp.org and modernxmpp.org

  526. MattJ

    But I don't want to see the ecosystem split, or for this to be Prosody-only thing

  527. MattJ

    It's too important

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  529. marc

    MattJ, me too

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  531. marc

    But I don't want to spend time on a token-only thing

  532. marc

    That's why I'm interested in 389 - that's it

  533. MattJ

    Ok, so can we get the rejected revision of 401 republished?

  534. Zash

    For Attic?

  535. MattJ

    It is already in attic

  536. MattJ

    I link to it

  537. Zash


  538. Ge0rG

    marc: I don't want to disown you. If you are okay with giving me authorship, well, now we are talking. But I'd rather have a separate document with that pre-ibr iq documented, but that requires that you finish 0401

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  540. Ge0rG

    It's been in limbo for over a year now

  541. Zash

    Wanna publish something as an Historical XEP?

  542. marc

    Ge0rG, I don't care about ownership

  543. Ge0rG

    marc: do you care about 0401?

  544. marc

    Ge0rG, but maybe it makes sense to make different XEPs for different approaches? I don't know

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  546. marc

    Would be nice to have *one* approach but I don't see this atm

  547. MattJ

    marc: can you summarize what makes your approach fundamentally different?

  548. marc

    MattJ, there is no fundamental difference, just based on an extenisble approach (389) which will be implemented sooner or later anyway (my assumption)

  549. Ge0rG

    Version 0.0.1 (2018-01-10) First submission.

  550. Ge0rG

    marc: well, you can't force people to implement 389 by requiring it in a semi related other xep

  551. MattJ

    It seems easiest to me if we do just submit preauth as a separate XEP

  552. Ge0rG

    MattJ: a separate XEP based on what?

  553. MattJ

    What do you mean?

  554. marc

    Ge0rG, I don't want to force anybody

  555. marc

    Ge0rG, just my feeling that we need something extensible anyway in the future

  556. Ge0rG

    MattJ: 0401 still contains TODOs

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  558. MattJ

    Ge0rG: well, we'll have to factor out or duplicate common parts

  559. Ge0rG

    marc: nothing wrong to put the working approach into 0401 now and add 389 in that extensible future

  560. MattJ

    E.g. make 0401 only about obtaining URIs/URLs?

  561. MattJ

    And define registration flow in other docs

  562. Ge0rG

    MattJ: fine with me

  563. marc

    sounds good

  564. MattJ

    We are all in agreement about the adhoc commands in 401, right?

  565. Ge0rG

    marc: who should do the splitting?

  566. Ge0rG

    MattJ: yes

  567. MattJ


  568. marc


  569. Ge0rG

    Can we get 402 and 403? 😁

  570. marc

    They're already taken, no?

  571. Ge0rG


  572. Ge0rG

    marc: are you okay with me or MattJ splitting out the registration parts from 0401 into a new XEP?

  573. marc

    Ge0rG, sure!

  574. Ge0rG

    Perfect, thanks!

  575. Ge0rG

    marc: do you want to keep a XEP for the modified IBR that was discouraged by Council, or would you like to aim right for 388?

  576. Ge0rG

    marc: do you want to keep a XEP for the modified IBR that was discouraged by Council, or would you like to aim right for 389?

  577. Ge0rG

    The part that's currently in §5.5

  578. marc

    Ge0rG, No, I would aim right for 389

  579. Ge0rG

    marc: do you have anything written up for 389?

  580. marc

    Ge0rG, spec-wise?

  581. Ge0rG

    Yes, we could aim for two consecutive XEP numbers

  582. marc

    Ge0rG, no, but it's not more than a few lines of text I guess

  583. marc

    I prefer to have a poc implementation before writing something down

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  585. Ge0rG

    marc: I'm not sure I want to wait that long

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  588. MattJ

    I'm off for a bit, thanks for the productive discussion, I think we're getting somewhere :)

  589. marc


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  595. marc

    Ge0rG, I'm afk next week, so if you need something from my side let me know this week

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  597. marc

    or the week after, of course :)

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  599. Ge0rG

    marc: thanks

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