XSF Discussion - 2020-10-19

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  267. lovetox question regarding https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0077.html#example-6
  268. lovetox Username conflict
  269. lovetox why is the error in the example type=cancel?
  270. lovetox would type=modify not fit much better?
  271. Zash Probably
  272. Ge0rG Right
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  274. lovetox it seems really important for IBR
  275. lovetox because if it returns the register form with an error, and type = modify
  276. lovetox i would not request the form again
  277. lovetox instead show the form attached to the error iq
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  280. jonas’ the form may not be included in the IQ error reply.
  281. lovetox then i will not display it
  282. lovetox and need to request it again
  283. lovetox but especially for form errors it is nice to attach the form
  284. Guus Even if the suggested modification makes sense, I wonder if changing that now, given that this was defined 15 years ago, would hurt more than it'd bring benefits.
  285. lovetox so we have error and the corresponding form with the values
  286. lovetox in one single place
  287. lovetox Guus, i thought examples are not normative, so can be changed any time
  288. Guus Not being normative doesn't mean 'that's how people have been doing it' - I'm not sure if that's actually the case, though, but I'd least consider that such a change might introduce issues for existing implementations.
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  290. lovetox i dont care much about changing it, but i want to write my code so that if some server dev someday cares about a good user experience for ibr, its at least possible
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  295. Ge0rG We can't change a Final XEP, can we?
  296. lovetox but i dont see how this would cause any problem for an implementation
  297. lovetox if a implementation follows the RFC
  298. lovetox cancel -- do not retry (the error cannot be remedied)
  299. lovetox this would mean a client would not let a user try again on a username conflict
  300. lovetox and i guess we can all guess this is very unlikely
  301. lovetox so every client already ignores the type
  302. Ge0rG lovetox: unless a client is hardcoded to treat type=cancel for retry ;)
  303. lovetox then it would not follow the RFC, as it says *do not retry* :D
  304. Ge0rG XEP beats RFC
  305. lovetox like never, you had one try to register at this server and you failed
  306. eta lovetox: haha
  307. Ge0rG > Note: Once an XMPP Extension Protocol has been advanced to a status of Final, every effort shall be made to limit the scope of modifications; in particular, backwards-incompatible changes shall not be made. However, limited modifications may be made as long as they are optional, backwards-compatible extensions rather than modifications to the core protocol itself. Therefore, a Final protocol is safe for deployment in mission-critical applications. Good luck! ;)
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  310. Zash Did the '77 author perhaps simply copy https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#stanzas-error-conditions-conflict
  311. Zash Says <conflict> SHOULD go with "cancel"
  312. eta Ge0rG: time for a new XEP
  313. Zash IBR2?
  314. Zash IBR2!
  315. eta Best Practices for In-Band Registration :p
  316. Zash "Don't"
  317. Ge0rG eta: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0389.html
  318. eta I like IBR though :c
  319. lovetox does a server support 0389?
  320. Zash Does a client support 0389?
  321. eta answers: no
  322. Ge0rG chicken-egg IBR
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  326. lovetox i would be willing to implement it, if some server dev also would work on the server side
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  328. Zash I might have half an implementation somewhere
  329. Zash However I imagine it predatest the latest updates and will need some changes
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  331. Zash Mmmmmm, can haz bookmarks 2 plz?
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  338. Zash investigates potentially exponential bookmark duplication bug
  339. Guus https://igniterealtime.org:443/httpfileupload/Jax4Cfo6gVIqTNq53VnfecKbZgw/image.png
  340. jonas’ &lol;
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  354. lovetox Zash, Gajim has a bookmarks 2 impl
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  356. lovetox if you want to test, there is a switch in advanced config editor to force enable it
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  368. marc lovetox: i have a wip implementation for 389
  369. marc for ejabberd
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  371. marc The plan is to implement basic registration and enhance it later with token / 401
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  375. lovetox good to know, i ping you once i have time to work on it
  376. marc yep, my client is implemented with aioxmpp
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  422. emus Why is the /me command actually part of the compliance suite?
  423. Zash It's expected of clients to support it
  424. Ge0rG emus: because it's my favorite command!
  425. emus understands 🙂
  426. Zash Because you didn't invent a XEP to replace it!!1!1!1eleventyeleven!
  427. emus just out of interest because I was wondering why this goes to the level of good experience
  428. emus (like group chat)
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  430. marc > just out of interest because I was wondering why this goes to the level of good experience > (like group chat) +1 :)
  431. Ge0rG It's about creating a consistent IM experience over different clients.
  432. Ge0rG That and Consistent Colors were the most contested additions
  433. Ge0rG I'll try to sneak in some more UX this year
  434. Ge0rG marc: speaking of which, how do we proceed with 0401?
  435. marc Ge0rG: as mentioned before, I have a poc for 389 for ejabberd
  436. marc Once that's done I will continue with 401
  437. marc Unfortunately, the token thing is not that easy with ejabberd
  438. Ge0rG marc: prosody has implemented the token thing already, even both variants AFAICT.
  439. emus Sure, it's not that I dont like it
  440. marc Ge0rG: not based on 389 I guess?
  441. Ge0rG marc: no, because of chicken and eggs
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  443. marc Yes, I don't like the solo action of prosedy
  444. Ge0rG The solo action of fixing a long standing problem?
  445. Ge0rG Together with two (three?) client implementations?
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  447. Ge0rG marc: when we implemented 401, we had the impression that there is no implementation yet of it
  448. marc I don't see lots of new users just because this solo action ;)
  449. Ge0rG My goal was to make it fly with minimal new protocol, not to reinvent all of IBR
  450. Ge0rG marc: have you seen the new prosody invitation page?
  451. marc Ge0rG, maybe, I don't remeber... I saw something some time ago
  452. marc link?
  453. Ge0rG https://blog.prosody.im/great-invitations/
  454. Ge0rG marc: live install on https://xmpp-trial1.ietf.org/
  455. marc Ge0rG, nice page :)
  456. Ge0rG MattJ: ⬆️👍
  457. marc I don't like to approach and the protocol but the page is nice
  458. marc Also the blog post
  459. Ge0rG marc: users don't care about the protocol
  460. marc Ge0rG, sure, I'm not a user ;)
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  462. MattJ Mistake #1 :)
  463. Ge0rG marc: why aren't you using MIX yet, then?
  464. marc MattJ, I'm a user but I care about the protocol
  465. MattJ So do I
  466. marc Ge0rG, sorry but I don't want to waste my little time about useless discussions (MIX)
  467. Ge0rG marc: thanks for the excellent idea of using "I don't care about protocol" as my Council 2021 slogan!
  468. MattJ I care about the protocol, I also care about getting things done
  469. MattJ Where is the new XEP-0401, since the previous attempt at fixing it was reverted?
  470. marc MattJ, I sent you a proposal quite some time ago but you never responded
  471. marc No blaming, just saying
  472. MattJ I think I approved it verbally after looking through?
  473. marc No, you had no time
  474. MattJ In any case, please don't hold off a new revision because of me
  475. MattJ I am sure feedback will come if there are still improvements to be made
  476. marc Ge0rG, again, no time for trolling sorry
  477. Ge0rG marc: I'm not trolling
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  479. Zash Hey if I could say "Bring back 2006-era XMPP" and get on Council, why not that?
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  482. Ge0rG marc: I'd love to have a working and documented way to invite people to xmpp. So far I have to choose between those two, and you know how I chose
  483. marc two?
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  485. Ge0rG Working or documented
  486. vseleznv has left
  487. marc Yep, either we have to change it later then or you have to document it properly
  488. MattJ The current implementation is working and documented
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  491. marc Then everything is fine?
  492. Ge0rG marc: like this? https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/874
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  494. Ge0rG Now I'm trolling
  495. Zash Only Daniel responded to that thread?
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  499. Ge0rG I could also fork 0401 or make a new "Using 0401 with a pre IBR IQ" XEP. But that would require 0401 to be in a stable state
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  502. marc Ge0rG, what is your question?
  503. Ge0rG > marc: speaking of which, how do we proceed with 0401?
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  505. marc Ge0rG, you know my standpoint, no?
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  509. MattJ As I see it, the XEP was stalled with no implementations and unanswered questions. Out of necessity we figured out a solution, implemented it in 4 clients and 1 server. The update wasn't accepted, and the XEP has not been updated since.
  510. Ge0rG marc: so we are not going to reach agreement?
  511. MattJ The preauth iq was chosen for maximum compatibility with all current and future IBR mechanisms
  512. jonas’ MattJ, appeal to council to transfer authorship of the XEP and get it documented?
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  515. marc Ge0rG, MattJ I don't care what you guys do but I don't like the approach so I won't spend on it
  516. Ge0rG marc: I'd like to document our approach under the XSF umbrella
  517. marc But document it if you like
  518. marc Ge0rG, sure, I won't block it
  519. marc Why would I?
  520. Ge0rG marc: you already did
  521. marc Ge0rG, you should take authorship in that case then?
  522. MattJ marc: it matters to me if we don't get an ejabberd implementation
  523. marc MattJ, I'm not an ejabberd maintainer nor regular dev
  524. marc I'm working on 389 - that's it
  525. MattJ I care less about documentation, it is already documented on xmpp.org and modernxmpp.org
  526. MattJ But I don't want to see the ecosystem split, or for this to be Prosody-only thing
  527. MattJ It's too important
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  529. marc MattJ, me too
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  531. marc But I don't want to spend time on a token-only thing
  532. marc That's why I'm interested in 389 - that's it
  533. MattJ Ok, so can we get the rejected revision of 401 republished?
  534. Zash For Attic?
  535. MattJ It is already in attic
  536. MattJ I link to it
  537. Zash Oh
  538. Ge0rG marc: I don't want to disown you. If you are okay with giving me authorship, well, now we are talking. But I'd rather have a separate document with that pre-ibr iq documented, but that requires that you finish 0401
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  540. Ge0rG It's been in limbo for over a year now
  541. Zash Wanna publish something as an Historical XEP?
  542. marc Ge0rG, I don't care about ownership
  543. Ge0rG marc: do you care about 0401?
  544. marc Ge0rG, but maybe it makes sense to make different XEPs for different approaches? I don't know
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  546. marc Would be nice to have *one* approach but I don't see this atm
  547. MattJ marc: can you summarize what makes your approach fundamentally different?
  548. marc MattJ, there is no fundamental difference, just based on an extenisble approach (389) which will be implemented sooner or later anyway (my assumption)
  549. Ge0rG Version 0.0.1 (2018-01-10) First submission.
  550. Ge0rG marc: well, you can't force people to implement 389 by requiring it in a semi related other xep
  551. MattJ It seems easiest to me if we do just submit preauth as a separate XEP
  552. Ge0rG MattJ: a separate XEP based on what?
  553. MattJ What do you mean?
  554. marc Ge0rG, I don't want to force anybody
  555. marc Ge0rG, just my feeling that we need something extensible anyway in the future
  556. Ge0rG MattJ: 0401 still contains TODOs
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  558. MattJ Ge0rG: well, we'll have to factor out or duplicate common parts
  559. Ge0rG marc: nothing wrong to put the working approach into 0401 now and add 389 in that extensible future
  560. MattJ E.g. make 0401 only about obtaining URIs/URLs?
  561. MattJ And define registration flow in other docs
  562. Ge0rG MattJ: fine with me
  563. marc sounds good
  564. MattJ We are all in agreement about the adhoc commands in 401, right?
  565. Ge0rG marc: who should do the splitting?
  566. Ge0rG MattJ: yes
  567. MattJ Great
  568. marc Yes
  569. Ge0rG Can we get 402 and 403? 😁
  570. marc They're already taken, no?
  571. Ge0rG Yes
  572. Ge0rG marc: are you okay with me or MattJ splitting out the registration parts from 0401 into a new XEP?
  573. marc Ge0rG, sure!
  574. Ge0rG Perfect, thanks!
  575. Ge0rG marc: do you want to keep a XEP for the modified IBR that was discouraged by Council, or would you like to aim right for 388?
  576. Ge0rG marc: do you want to keep a XEP for the modified IBR that was discouraged by Council, or would you like to aim right for 389?
  577. Ge0rG The part that's currently in §5.5
  578. marc Ge0rG, No, I would aim right for 389
  579. Ge0rG marc: do you have anything written up for 389?
  580. marc Ge0rG, spec-wise?
  581. Ge0rG Yes, we could aim for two consecutive XEP numbers
  582. marc Ge0rG, no, but it's not more than a few lines of text I guess
  583. marc I prefer to have a poc implementation before writing something down
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  585. Ge0rG marc: I'm not sure I want to wait that long
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  588. MattJ I'm off for a bit, thanks for the productive discussion, I think we're getting somewhere :)
  589. marc Yep
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  595. marc Ge0rG, I'm afk next week, so if you need something from my side let me know this week
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  597. marc or the week after, of course :)
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  599. Ge0rG marc: thanks
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