XSF Discussion - 2020-10-22

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  109. mdosch >Personally I think it's correct as is. I don't like the current way most clients I've used send images (OOB and the URL in the body) and in my own clients I wouldn't want to do that because I personally expect to be able to send a separate message along with an image like most commercial messengers, MMS, etc. let you do. Sam on the ML. I'd really like to be able to send a caption together with an image/file too but using the message body might cause problems as afaik you have to put the URL of the uploaded file only there and not OOB if you use OMEMO as it only encrypts the body.
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  127. Zash OOB does support a description, but I don't know if that shows up anywhere and you can't have it in the body with this undocumented body==url method.
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  130. Ge0rG I'm sure somebody will document the undocumented body==url method Real Soon Now™
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  137. Zash Any day now
  138. Daniel after reading 66 again I too believe it should be a seperate informational xep
  139. Daniel because retrofitting 66 to cover the current usage is … bad…
  140. Ge0rG Daniel: you could change §6 into §6.1 under a new section "Application Use Cases", and add inline media as §6.2
  141. Ge0rG §6 already claims: > This section is non-normative.
  142. flow +1
  143. Ge0rG Daniel: did you have any pending further changes on CS'21 beyond the submitted and accepted PR?
  144. Daniel none written down
  145. Daniel i'd still like to mention styling
  146. Ge0rG Daniel: +1 to that
  147. Ge0rG Daniel: but now that XEP-0443 is in Last Call, it would be better to reply to standards@ with the suggestion
  148. Ge0rG I'm sure there will be plenty controversy.
  149. Daniel i don’t want to include it in the compliance part
  150. Daniel just mention it
  151. Ge0rG ...from the "UX is outside of the scope of the XSF" faction ;)
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  153. MattJ Ge0rG [08:50]: > I'm sure somebody will document the undocumented body==url method Real Soon Now™ It's been documented on modernxmpp.org for months (years?) ;)
  154. Seve The face when you tell people they can't write a message along with the image they are sending
  155. edhelas send the picture, then send a message
  156. edhelas et voilà :p
  157. Seve Fixing the root cause might also be a solution ;)
  158. Ge0rG MattJ: next time you do an XMPP poll, ask the people whether they knew about modernxmpp.org before you asked.
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  163. Ge0rG Daniel: would you write that email?
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  165. Daniel I can create a PR
  166. Daniel Never ask the people if you don't know the out come
  167. Daniel Or something along those lines
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  169. Ge0rG > Daniel: but now that XEP-0443 is in Last Call, it would be better to reply to standards@ with the suggestion
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  171. Ge0rG (it's no problem to say "no", I'd just like to know because otherwise I'd write that)
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  191. Ge0rG sorry, the email has arrived now
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  231. mdosch Wouldn't it be helpful to give the reporter the ability to send the last (or last N) received messages with a 0377 report? How is a server operator supposed to know whether the complaint is legit or not if no debug logging is activated?
  232. mdosch Wouldn't it be helpful to give the reporter the ability to send the last (or last N) received message(s) with a 0377 report? How is a server operator supposed to know whether the complaint is legit or not if no debug logging is activated?
  233. Ge0rG mdosch: the problem is that a user could fake a spam report in that case
  234. Ge0rG I've already asked back in the day to include the stanza-id (not the stanza id, ha-ha) of the offending message, so that the server operator can pull it from the user's MAM
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  237. Daniel Ge0rG: technically you could probably put something in the privacy policy that by reporting a jid as spam you give the operator permission to access your MAM for that account
  238. Daniel Because in proper cases it's all spam messages anyway
  239. Daniel Or just one really
  240. Daniel No need to provide an individual id
  241. Ge0rG Daniel: as I'm not convinced of the current status of 0377 and I refuse to implement it because the current implementations are a mere simulation of handling the problem, no.
  242. mdosch Yes, I'd also say the "report this user" is giving you consent to access this particular chat.
  243. Ge0rG And my privacy policy already contains a statement about messages automatically flagged as spam
  244. Ge0rG Once 0377 can report actual spam messages / ensure that they are available in the user's MAM, and once there is useful admin escalation beyond writing something to the server log file, well, then we are talking.
  245. Zash That's implementation, nothing to do with the XEP itself.
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  247. Ge0rG Zash: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2017-September/033356.html
  248. mdosch Right now it's only "X reported Y for $reason", no message content or message id.
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  250. Ge0rG I'm sure the current implementations are well-intentioned, but they don't work against real-life spambots with throw-away JIDs, which only spam you once or at most twice and then stop being used.
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  252. Ge0rG So a user will eagerly "block & report" the first one, then wonder why the same spam comes from a different user, then just give up in resignation
  253. Ge0rG So effectively you are teaching users that "block & report" doesn't yield the desired effect.
  254. Ge0rG Given a stanza-id, the server implementation could at least block the same message from being ever sent to the user again
  255. Zash That thread never turned into a XEP revision? Hrm
  256. Zash Anyone wanna volonteer to PR?
  257. Ge0rG Zash: you just did!
  258. Zash I have -1 spare cycles at the moment.
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  260. Ge0rG Zash: do the PR, then you are at -2. Repeat often enough and you'll yield an integer overflow and have almost unlimited time
  261. Ge0rG Zash: while you are at it, please specify that the report may contain zero, one or many stanza-id references.
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  263. Ge0rG FWIW, you could just allow stuffing a list of <stanza-id xmlns='urn:xmpp:sid:0'/> elements into the <report/>
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  268. mdosch > Given a stanza-id, the server implementation could at least block the same message from being ever sent to the user again That would be a big improvement. 😃
  269. Ge0rG mdosch: oh really?
  270. Zash Does Sam still want to be author?
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  275. MattJ Again, I think this is unnecessary and silly
  276. MattJ Users don't report individual messages in reality
  277. MattJ "This message from the spam bot was spam, but none of the other messages were"
  278. MattJ Seriously? :)
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  280. Kev If we were to use References it'd allow you to report which bit of the body of a particular message was spammy, excluding the rest of the message.
  281. mdosch MattJ: > "This message from the spam bot was spam, but none of the other messages were" > Seriously? :) It's for the operator to have a proof that it was a spambot and not a false complaint.
  282. MattJ How does it add proof?
  283. Zash Like Daniel said, could just fetch the last few messages (probably only one or two) with that "contact" (MAM 'with') and ????
  284. Zash Assuming these go in MAM
  285. MattJ If they don't, a stanza id is useless
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  287. mdosch > How does it add proof? You see the message was e.g. carder spam and not the ex-girlfriend which annoyed the user. In the latter case he can block her but there is no need for the server operator to take further actions.
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  289. mdosch Right now the reports are not really useful for me.
  290. MattJ You can go and look up messages in the archive right now, you don't need an id
  291. Kev I think you mean evidence, rather than proof, FWIW. But I think Matt is right, at least for the type of spam we see at the moment looking at any messages in the archive would probably be sufficient.
  292. mdosch > martin@mdosch.de reported shark2@404.city as spammer: no reason given > martin@mdosch.de reported comprehend@default.rs as spammer: no reason given So I have to dig in the archive now?
  293. MattJ mdosch, and what do you think a stanza id will do for you?
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  296. mdosch > I think you mean evidence, rather than proof, FWIW. Maybe, no native speaker here.
  297. Kev But I also think that mdosch is right in that if you rely on whole-archive searching spammers will start sending legitimate-messages between themselves to make that more onerous, and highlighting where the admin should look helps.
  298. MattJ > martin@mdosch.de reported shark2@404.city's message 25ee8f48-851d-4cb9-8d81-3c34b1f892ce as spam: no reason given
  299. MattJ An immense improvement!
  300. mdosch > mdosch, and what do you think a stanza id will do for you? The server module could fetch it and add it to the notification I hope. 😃
  301. Kev Ah, righ,t what I say is false. You know who submitted the report, so you can look at the spammer's history with that entity.
  302. Kev So I'm mostly with Matt, I think.
  303. Daniel Just get the last three messages from Spammer to reporter and add it
  304. MattJ mdosch, as I and everyone else already said, you don't need an id to query the archive
  305. Ge0rG Kev: it's about automatic processing. Having a stanza-id or a list of stanza-ids will allow the server to automatically fetch the message content and to do smart content-based blocking
  306. Ge0rG While *technically* you could just fetch the message history of the user with the reported JID without explicit consent, you still don't know which of the messages are the ones that you'd like to auto-block, maybe even for other users.
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  310. Ge0rG OTOH, the overhead of adding a list of stanza-ids to the protocol looks rather trivial
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  313. Daniel In the case or a real Spammer it will all be spam messages
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  316. Ge0rG how is the server admin supposed to know who's a real spammer?
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  319. Daniel You have to sanity check that either way
  320. Zash How is whatever receives the reports supposed to know that I'm not trying to game the reporting system?
  321. mdosch > In the case or a real Spammer it will all be spam messages I recently got a sub and totally innocent looking message prior to the spam.
  322. mdosch Some also send a simple 'Hello' first. You probably don't want to block this message content automatically.
  323. Daniel Yes. But that's independent of blocking with or without message I'd
  324. MattJ The premise of adding stanza-id(s) to the report: 1) it helps admins (false) 2) clients will expose per-message reporting in their UI (hopefully false)
  325. Daniel Yes. But that's independent of blocking with or without message id
  326. Daniel Yes exactly. The UX flow in my client will remain as 'block this user'
  327. Daniel Not report this message
  328. Ge0rG Daniel: "block this user and report the messages to the server admin"
  329. Zash You could have "report this conversation"
  330. MattJ Ge0rG, all that does it tell the server information it already has?!
  331. Ge0rG or "block this user // [ ] report message content"
  332. MattJ Ge0rG, all that does is tell the server information it already has?!
  333. Zash MattJ, it'd tell the admin about messages that got trough whatever spam filters are in place, so they can be further tuned.
  334. MattJ Zash, messages that are blocked go into the archive?
  335. Ge0rG MattJ: it's also about explicit consent
  336. Ge0rG MattJ: GDPR and things
  337. MattJ Ge0rG, it's absolutely not, the wire protocol has no bearing on consent at all
  338. Zash MattJ, ???
  339. Ge0rG yeah, right. Let the admin sort out the GDPR issues.
  340. MattJ Ge0rG, "the client sent me some ids, therefore the user consented to me reading them" is absolutely not going to stand up in the court of GDPR :)
  341. Ge0rG MattJ: given explicit message flagging (a sane UI for which is probably not too far fetched), the server could block the content of those messages automatically in the future
  342. Ge0rG MattJ: no, but a privacy policy where "messages flagged by the user as spam will be inspected" will
  343. MattJ Zash, I don't understand what you're saying - how would it tell the admin anything?
  344. MattJ Ge0rG, so when the user reports a greeting message, the server should block all greetings?
  345. Zash MattJ, messages that got trough the spam filter (and into the archive), those can be reported and let the admin see what got troguh
  346. Ge0rG MattJ: to that user
  347. MattJ Zash, but that is unrelated to whether stanza ids are included in the report, no?
  348. Ge0rG MattJ: I also wanted to make 0377 depend on the user having MAM
  349. Ge0rG MattJ: well, technically I don't care *how* it is technically implemented, as long as there is a way for the user / client to tell the server admin which messages are spam.
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  352. Ge0rG but the current combination of XEP and implementations is useless for me as a server admin trying to fight spam, and that hasn't changed in some three years.
  353. Ge0rG and now I'm back to doing real work.
  354. Zash MattJ, well, "this message right here" vs "some of the recent messages this user sent" can be useful?
  355. MattJ Zash, only if that's exposed in the UI
  356. MattJ which as we just heard from one of the leading client authors, it won't be
  357. Zash Long-press the spam, "report this" ?
  358. MattJ and I can understand why
  359. Ge0rG what Zash said.
  360. Ge0rG alternatively, have a list of the last N messages with checkboxes in front
  361. MattJ ...
  362. Zash Optional? If left out, its "something recently in this conversation"
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  365. MattJ <-- despair
  366. MattJ Add it to the XEP, nobody will use it for many reasons, but at least it's there and we can stop talking about it then :)
  367. Daniel But is 'only some of those messages are spam' a realistic scenario?
  368. MattJ It will change absolutely nothing
  369. Daniel That would require hijacking accounts right?
  370. Daniel Is this happening on a large scale?
  371. Zash If we only care about spam
  372. Zash 377 also has some stuff about "general abuse"
  373. Zash MattJ, one client author is not going to use it and another client author refuses to implement unless stuff... how2resolve?
  374. Ge0rG Daniel: yes it is, because many spam bots start with a "hi" and then only follow up with spam if you respond
  375. Daniel Well in that case the hi is spam as well
  376. Daniel Not something you might want to train your filter with
  377. Ge0rG Daniel: but not every hi is spam, whereas every spam message is
  378. Daniel But Spam nonetheless
  379. Daniel Yes. But it's part of a general pattern
  380. Daniel Ultimately you want to block that as well
  381. Ge0rG Yes.
  382. Ge0rG But I won't come closer to that goal by receiving spam reports about messages that are only "hi"
  383. Daniel If I was to report it manually I'd report that initial message as well
  384. Ge0rG Except maybe if I get full XML of those messages from which I can derive even more things.
  385. Daniel I often block people after sending me a single hi and nothing else
  386. Daniel We just don't have reporting enabled
  387. Ge0rG Anyway, if the server admins would rather fix the tooling than change the XEP, and if everybody is in agreement that all messages from a reported JID must be spam, then please just go on and implement the tooling!
  388. Ge0rG Anyway, if the server developers would rather fix the tooling than change the XEP, and if everybody is in agreement that all messages from a reported JID must be spam, then please just go on and implement the tooling!
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  393. MattJ I look forward to your funding for that work :)
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  395. Daniel It doesn't seem too far fetched to actually do get some funding for that
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  397. Ge0rG I've said time and again that user spam reporting is worthless for me without having full XML of the offending content. Actually I'd even want to see the full presence XML, but nobody is storing that anyway.
  398. Ge0rG MattJ: ironically, my existing approach works well enough without user reports.
  399. MattJ Sure, I don't blame you for not wanting user reports right now, as they're unnecessary for anything you are doing
  400. Ge0rG having to manually inspect user reports would actually worsen the situation for me.
  401. MattJ But we need to have the protocol there and implemented, because we can do useful things when it is
  402. Ge0rG MattJ: we also disagree on that poing
  403. MattJ and that includes capturing full XML if needed, even withot stanza ids
  404. Zash Ge0rG: Use it for metrics!
  405. Ge0rG MattJ: we also disagree on that point
  406. MattJ Well I'm not going into that one again
  407. Ge0rG MattJ: in that case please go on and implement useful things with the existing protocol
  408. Ge0rG it's been there since 2017 ;)
  409. MattJ I shall, at some point
  410. Ge0rG I'd eagerly use it once it is actually reducing the cost for me vs. what I'm doing now
  411. MattJ I've been doing a lot, but I have a lot to do in many different areas
  412. Ge0rG MattJ: yes, we all suffer under limited time
  413. MattJ I've put some serious research into this topic, including what existing tools and frameworks we can lean on (if properly integrated)
  414. MattJ We're not the first people to suffer from spam and abuse :)
  415. Ge0rG MattJ: yes, and there will be a time when xmpp spammers start to learn from other spammers
  416. Zash Also, how does reporting work in MUC/MIX?
  417. Ge0rG Zash: you can report and block the MUC
  418. Zash Myeah...
  419. Ge0rG well, you *could* implement 0377 on a MUC JID, but reports don't contain a timestamp or a message reference, so you'd end up reporting a random nickname.
  420. Ge0rG good luck finding out who owned that nickname from the server's MAM
  421. Zash Occupant IDs
  422. Ge0rG but of course you could add a XEP-0421 inside
  423. Ge0rG I still think that 0421 is a sort of a privacy violation
  424. MattJ Now for MUC... stanza-id would be useful :)
  425. Zash Vote-based XEP-0425?
  426. Ge0rG can you say that again, louder?
  427. Zash Detaching the reporting from the blocking also makes more sense with MUC
  428. Ge0rG would a report generate a popup on all logged in room moderators' clients?
  429. Zash There's prior art for that kind of thing, with asking for voice
  430. Zash I'd probably stick some ⚠️ symbol with a counter on the message or something, plus a notification
  431. Zash Said the server developer who isn't working on a client.
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  451. Seve 🕊
  452. MattJ Oh :)
  453. MattJ Guus?
  454. Guus here
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  456. MattJ Let's have a short one
  457. MattJ 0) Roll call
  458. MattJ Me
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  460. Guus eye
  461. Guus aye?
  462. Guus me.
  463. Seve says "me"
  464. MattJ 1) Topics for decisions
  465. MattJ 1.1) Martin Dosch to be appointed to the Editor Work Team
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  468. MattJ This is a motion from Ralph via email. Martin applied, and has been approved by Council per the process (who knew?)
  469. MattJ All that remains is that Board approves
  470. MattJ and Ralph also sent a +1 on this via email
  471. MattJ I am also +1, and thank Martin for volunteering :)
  472. Guus +1 for me
  473. Seve +1 too, thank you Martin
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  475. pep. .
  476. MattJ Just in time, pep. :)
  477. pep. +1 for Martin :)
  478. jonas’ %s/Martin/mdosch/ for local mentions :)
  479. MattJ Excellent, approved unanimously
  480. MattJ XSF_Martin
  481. MattJ 2) AOB
  482. MattJ Looks like Trello has been tidied (thanks to Ralph/whoever did that)
  483. lorddavidiii has left
  484. MattJ There are a number of "Awaiting feedback" items that I'm not inclined to wade through right now unless someone wants to pick one up specifically
  485. pep. Just a note from me to say I'm not reapplying as member (membership expiring this quarter), nor for board.
  486. MattJ :(
  487. Zash :(
  488. Guus Sorry to hear that, pep.
  489. jonas’ oh
  490. Seve Sad to hear that, hope all is right pep.
  491. adityaborikar has joined
  492. jonas’ I follow the sentiments of Guus and Seve on this one
  493. pep. Yeah. I'm just spending my time differently. I'm more useful elsewhere
  494. MattJ You'll be missed, though I hope you're not departing the community :)
  495. alex-a-soto has joined
  496. MattJ Ok, let's wrap up the meeting
  497. MattJ 3) Date of next
  498. MattJ +1w
  499. pep. ok
  500. Seve +1
  501. MattJ 4) Meeting closed
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  503. Seve Thank you for picking up the steering wheel today MattJ
  504. MattJ I'll send minutes for this and the previous meeting shortly
  505. goffi has joined
  506. mdosch Thank you all. 😃
  507. emus Thanks Martin!
  508. MattJ mdosch, Github username? :)
  509. mdosch mdosch
  510. MattJ Shocking
  511. MattJ Invite sent
  512. mdosch Thanks
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  697. Ge0rG MattJ: somebody complained that 313 still recommends storing MUC messages in user archives in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#business-storeret-user-archives - would be nice to change that
  698. Ge0rG Probably also something about last calls.
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  714. MattJ Huh
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  717. MattJ As I suspected, that was added in the revision I wasn't involved in :)
  718. MattJ And doesn't MIX depend on this?
  719. MattJ (though we concluded that was generally not a good thing)
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  773. Ge0rG What message type does mix use? Do I even want to know?
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