XSF Discussion - 2020-10-30

  1. Guus

    Can someone provide me with a temporary test account on a public server that has a certificate chain longer than two certificates please?

  2. Ge0rG

    does let's encrypt count?

  3. Guus

    My Let'sEncrypt cert has no intermediate certs in the chain

  4. Guus

    (so: no?)

  5. Ge0rG

    if only we had xmpp.net

  6. Zash

    Pretty sure it has one intermediate

  7. Guus

    Then my count is off somewhere, checking...

  8. Zash

    If only Let's Encrypt had any competition left

  9. Guus

    ah, the chain that I am looking at doesn't include the CA cert

  10. Guus

    that's why I thought it didn't have an intermediate. My bad. Thanks Zash

  11. Holger

    Guus: So you no longer need an account? (Otherwise I could give you one with two intermediates.)

  12. Guus

    Holger, please do

  13. Guus

    a check for more than one is always interesting.

  14. lovetox

    hm about the council discussion

  15. lovetox

    delay on subject is the edit date on the subject or not?

  16. lovetox

    or am i misremembering that

  17. lovetox

    for the idea to add it to MAM

  18. lovetox

    yeah, just note that it can only be in MAM

  19. lovetox

    it can not be part of the MUC history

  20. lovetox

    which is kind of weird, but i guess nobody wants to use MUC History anyway

  21. lovetox

    whats also weird is

  22. lovetox


  23. lovetox

    As explained under , when a new occupant joins the room the room SHOULD include the last subject change after the discussion history.

  24. lovetox

    > As explained under , when a new occupant joins the room the room SHOULD include the last subject change after the discussion history.

  25. lovetox

    SHOULD is wrong here in my opinion

  26. lovetox

    there is https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#order

  27. lovetox

    and its a MUST

  28. Ge0rG

    lovetox: MAM doesn't solve the problem of seamlessly switching between history and live messages.

  29. Ge0rG

    I never understood why I'm the only one bothered by that

  30. lovetox

    why not?

  31. lovetox

    with deduplicating this works fine

  32. Ge0rG

    It's an ugly hack.

  33. Ge0rG

    And you need MUC history for the dedup

  34. lovetox

    Ge0rG, i think its a very low priority problem

  35. lovetox

    literally never seen a issue regarding that

  36. Ge0rG

    Or you need to fill the gap after receiving the first message after you joined.

  37. Ge0rG

    lovetox: you don't see the issue because it's a race condition that's not happening often, and users are used to xmpp losing messages

  38. lovetox

    im not sure i see the problem, i join i request 0 history

  39. lovetox

    i receive a live message

  40. Ge0rG

    When do you fetch MAM?

  41. lovetox

    i request MAM, and sort all messages into my chat view according to the timestamp and order i receive from MAM

  42. Ge0rG

    But when do you request it?

  43. lovetox

    after successful join

  44. lovetox

    after the subject

  45. Ge0rG

    And you request everything after the last message you had in MAM before starting the join?

  46. lovetox


  47. lovetox

    join -> receive subject -> request MAM

  48. Ge0rG

    Request MAM with which parameters?

  49. lovetox

    the last stanza id i received, of course between receive subject and MAM request finished, i dont record ids

  50. lovetox

    and the last mam page gives me all the live messages received while i fetched mam

  51. lovetox

    so its fine at the end

  52. Ge0rG

    That sounds a bit racy

  53. lovetox

    this would need to be answered by a server dev

  54. Holger

    It's definitely racy 🙂

  55. lovetox

    i dont see it

  56. Holger

    Making this non-racy would require some cluster-wide locks server-side.

  57. lovetox

    i receive the last mam page with the last message then i record that stanza id

  58. lovetox

    at that moment im definitly fine

  59. Holger

    Well maybe I misunderstood. What I understood was: You issue a MAM-request, wait for the response, and effectively throw away any live messages received while you're waiting for the MAM response to be completed, right?

  60. lovetox


  61. lovetox

    no message is dropped

  62. Ge0rG

    That's also what I understood

  63. lovetox

    no i don’t record ids

  64. Holger

    Them I misunderstood "of course between receive subject and MAM request finished, i dont record ids".

  65. lovetox

    normally when a live message comes in

  66. lovetox

    you have to record the id

  67. lovetox

    this is now your last stanza -id

  68. Ge0rG

    What does it mean?

  69. lovetox

    for your next mam request in the future

  70. Ge0rG


  71. Holger

    So while MAM is in action, you process both the MAM response and the live messages, and you de-dup.

  72. lovetox


  73. lovetox

    the not recording ids of live messages while a mam fetch is in progress is for stuff like

  74. Ge0rG

    So worst case is that you'll request more messages from MAM if the join was aborted

  75. lovetox

    when the mam requests aborts in the middle or something like that

  76. lovetox


  77. Ge0rG

    But you do record the stanza IDs of the MAM results?

  78. lovetox

    of course

  79. lovetox

    point is, as long as im not receiving a complete=true with stanza id

  80. lovetox

    i display all live messages, but i dont record stanza-ids

  81. lovetox

    when im in sync (complete=true) every muc messges moves the last-stanza-id

  82. Ge0rG

    Somebody should write down all these dirty tricks

  83. emus

    ! I told you guys we need a "Did you know?" section in the XMPP Newsletter

  84. Ge0rG

    Like using MAM to apply stanza IDs to your previously sent messages, or when to advance the last ID

  85. Ge0rG

    emus: we need those sections in the XEPs

  86. Ge0rG

    Which is actually sad.

  87. emus