XSF Discussion - 2020-11-06

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  85. Guus Is wiki.xmpp.org dreadfully slow for anyone but me?
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  87. Guus Uhoh.
  88. Guus https://igniterealtime.org:443/httpfileupload/jiYCE27cESUD4UHmnYmyBSCeJVg/image.png
  89. Ge0rG same here
  90. Ge0rG MattJ: are you in a position to look at it?
  91. MattJ No :D
  92. MattJ Stirring porridge with one hand, holding a baby in the other, not near my laptop
  93. Zash How are you typing ! ?
  94. Ge0rG "Ok, Google!"
  95. MattJ Sorry, just found the gap between being in a position to fix the wiki and my actual situation comically high
  96. Ge0rG MattJ: just don't drop the baby, right?
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  99. Guus or the porridge
  100. Ge0rG my priority would be baby > laptop > smartphone > porridge
  101. Guus We will take your suggestion under advisement.
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  111. jonas’ MattJ, at least the house isn’t on fire :D
  112. Ge0rG everything is fine.
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  115. jonas’ (totally made up combination of events which most definitely did not happen to anyone I know and they most definitely did not prioritize feeding the porridge over getting out of the house. luckily, and most definitely, the fire was small and nobody was harmed in this definitely made up situation)
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  156. MattJ The wiki might be a bit more responsive now
  157. MattJ As far as I can tell it's being aggressively crawled by something
  158. MattJ Going into every "What links here" and diff pages, etc.
  159. MattJ So it's still slow
  160. dwd Do you also have an update on the porridge/baby situation?
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  163. MattJ The porridge was mostly successfully consumed, even if the messy high chair, table and floor didn't look like it when my wife came in. And now baby duty is successfully handed over. I'm ready to take on the easier part of my day now :)
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  166. vanitasvitae What happens if XEP-A is having a namespace bump, and XEP-B is depending on XEP-A? Is XEP-B required to bump its namespace as well?
  167. dwd Same rules apply. We bump namespaces if not doing so would otherwise cause aa interoperability problem.
  168. jonas’ vanitasvitae, terror ensues
  169. jonas’ see MIX
  170. jonas’ where parts still use an old pam: namespace, which is confusing for implementations
  171. jonas’ as they now have to support both namespaces for the specs-as-written
  172. vanitasvitae Okay, thanks
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  175. flow vanitasvitae, ideally XEP-B would not simply depend on XEP-A but on (XEP-A, xep-a-namespace)
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  177. Guus Thanks Matt. Good to know that the wiki isn't broken.
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  179. vanitasvitae flow: got it. In that case a bump would not be required for XEP-B? Only if XEP-B would be uodated to use XEP-A:++?
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  187. jonas’ vanitasvitae, see what I wrote. that’s a PITA for developers.
  188. jonas’ there’s not much of a sane way out of that with the way we currently bump namespaces
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  191. Kev Namespaces should only be bumped if you can't interoperate under the existing namespace - almost always you can. We have bumped too often, I have little doubt.
  192. Ge0rG And in most cases you can accomplish the change with a new feature element
  193. Kev Yes.
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  199. Guus There are no circumstances where it would be allowable to use an intermediate as a trust anchor (meaning, not validating the issuer of the intermadiate) when validating a certificate chain, correct?
  200. Zash I think in DANE that's a thing
  201. Zash You could also cache known indermediates and so allow people to have broken setups.
  202. Ge0rG Guus: if the intermediate is in your trusted root set, it should be safe to abort further validation
  203. Guus My concern is that any revocation checks are thus bypassed.
  204. Guus which arguably is acceptable if the intermediate has been willingly placed in a 'trusted' root set, I suppose...
  205. Ge0rG well, CRLs don't work anyway.
  206. jonas’ Guus, the intermediate could also have its own CRL, right?
  207. jonas’ thinking about the Let’s Encrypt transition period where they had their "root" signed by another well-known CA to be trusted right away on all systems
  208. Guus jonas’ I'm thinking that the CRL as advocated by the intermediate is primarily used to verify certificates issued by it. Should one trust an intermediate-provided CRL to include the intermediate itself, if, for some reason, it should not be trusted anymore? That does not feel particularly safe.
  209. Zash Guus, are you working on a crypto library?
  210. Guus As in: an intermediate that goes malicious won't ever include itself in the CRL.
  211. Guus Zash no, I want to understand how these details are supposed to work.
  212. Zash It seems reasonable that the revocation methods listed in a CA cert applies to the certs it issues
  213. jonas’ Guus, ah, I see; well, what Guus said then; if you have something in your trust store, you don’t check the CRL for it. It’s in your trust store after all.
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  216. jonas’ s/Guus said/Ge0rG said/
  217. Guus I'm still not sure if that's correct. The entire reason for having CRL's is to be able to revoke an earlier decision to trust something.
  218. Guus What do you do when you have an intermediate as well as its issuer in your truststore, and the issuer adds the intermediate to its CRL?
  219. Guus Accept it, since it's in your truststore (which there should not be a need for, so I can understand the argument)
  220. Zash I suppose if you kept intermediates, you'd want to treat it as a RLU cache or somesuch, and then peridically check it against CRLs?
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  222. Zash Isn't OCSP stamping(?) the thing now however? I.e. the server checks its own certificate and includes a "this is still valid" in TLS handshakes.
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  225. Zash With CRLs and OCSP being fail-open which is weird for a security thing.
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  228. flow vanitasvitae> flow: got it. In that case a bump would not be required for XEP-B? Only if XEP-B would be uodated to use XEP-A:++? Since there nothing has changed in XEP-B, no bump is required
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  246. dwd Zash, I believe that given an cert, there are extensions available to find, download, and then cache the signer, so you can keep going until you find a known TA or a self-signed cert.
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  253. dwd s/signer/issuer/ - I'm not thinking today. I think the AIA extension should help. http://pkiglobe.org/auth_info_access.html
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  261. dwd Zash, Also, you're thinking OCSP Stapling, and for XMPP servers, I think you fetch the CRL periodically, and use that as a fallback to OCSP (with or without stapling), and if you can't do CRL or OCSP then fail.
  262. dwd Zash, My theory here is that there are very few CRLs you actually need as a server, so you're very likely to have that, and an attack which causes OCSP to fail then has a very small window to work with.
  263. Zash 100% Let's Encrypt probably.
  264. dwd Probably 5 or 6 different CRLs, though 99% LE, yes.
  265. moparisthebest emus: very good work on newsletter once again, it's much appreciated :)
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  267. Guus what he said ^
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  282. emus ❤ Thank you guys, very happy you like it!
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  285. jonas’ Guus, ah, but CRLs are to revoke trust by the signer.
  286. jonas’ while truststores are configured locally and have nothing to do with the signer
  287. jonas’ (if it exists at all)
  288. jonas’ so to revoke trust in a certificate from a trust store, you remove it from the trust store.
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  294. flow hmm I was assuming that the CRLs override the trust from the truststore
  295. flow to check, the truststore is where your trusted root CAs certs are?
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  302. jonas’ yes
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  311. flow ahh ok, I think I figured out where I went wrong
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  323. dwd flow, A CRL lists the signatures by an issuer that are no longer valid, in effect. An issuer *could* be a TA, but is more likely to be an intermediate cert.
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