Zash, what versions of prosody announce muc#stable_id?
Lancehas left
Zash
Daniel, looks like >= 0.10.1
Daniel
ok cool thank. so i should be able to find one in the wild
APachhas joined
mdosch
!version mdosch.de
mdosch
Ha, no HAL.
Zash
Should be possible to locate one or two .. :)
Dele Olajidehas joined
Wojtekhas joined
Nekithas left
Nekithas joined
lorddavidiiihas joined
Dele Olajidehas left
neshtaxmpphas left
alacer@blabber.imhas joined
alacer@blabber.imhas left
lorddavidiiihas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
Lancehas joined
stpeterhas joined
stpeterhas left
Steve Killehas left
lovetoxhas joined
Steve Killehas joined
Shellhas left
jcbrandhas left
andrey.ghas left
Al@cerhas joined
Al@cerhas left
Al@cerhas joined
jcbrandhas joined
mukt2has left
mukt2has joined
j.rhas left
neshtaxmpphas joined
Al@cerhas left
Wojtekhas left
Wojtekhas joined
pasdesushihas joined
LNJhas left
LNJhas joined
adiaholichas left
adiaholichas joined
lorddavidiiihas left
mukt2has left
intosihas left
mukt2has joined
intosihas joined
intosihas left
adiaholichas left
adiaholichas joined
pasdesushihas left
pasdesushihas joined
pasdesushihas left
pasdesushihas joined
ralphmhas left
ralphmhas joined
ralphm
I've been contemplating https://letsencrypt.org/2020/11/06/own-two-feet.html and its impact on the XMPP ecosystem. I haven't yet looked at certificates being used on public servers, but I'd expect a fair number of them using LE. While browsers already (Firefox) or soon (Chrome) ship with their own bundle of root certs, making it viable to keep working on Android < 7.1, this probably doesn't hold for XMPP clients? Thoughts?
Zash
I seem to remember that Pidgin ships with its own bundle, so it's certainly possible.
murabitohas joined
alameyohas left
alameyohas joined
Ge0rG
> run a banner asking your Android users on older OSes to install Firefox
Look, it's as easy as that!
Ge0rG
ralphm: that's an important problem. However, I can imagine that most Android xmpp clients will support something like my https://github.com/ge0rg/MemorizingTrustManager if they predate the wide availability of LE
Ge0rG
Because before LE, most small servers were running self signed or otherwise 'untrusted' certificates
intosihas joined
mukt2has left
pasdesushihas left
Zash
Out of 578 s2s connections to this server, 526 seem to use LE
Ge0rG, on my personal server, yes. Awkward for public MUC hosts where you might try to join to get help with your broken TLS settings or code or whatever.
nad287has joined
Ge0rG
Indeed. I'm also not blocking on yax.im, because who knows all the contacts of my users
mdosch
That would be like mod_block_strangers on abuse contact addresses…
Link Mauve
I once made the difficult decision to block all unencrypted s2s, which closed about 10% of my total s2s amounts.
Link Mauve
That was like two or three years ago.
Link Mauve
Blocking insecure certs would be a similarly difficult decision.
mukt2has joined
intosihas left
ralphm
Sure, but in this case, we're not actually talking about insecure certs. Just that clients that use the set of root certs provided by the OS are going to have issues if those don't include the LE root cert. Which, according to this post, is around 33% of Android devices.
DebXWoodyhas left
ralphm
And I'm also not sure that it is a good idea for clients to do have their own, by the way. Deciding what certs are ok and which aren't, is hard. Mozilla has some good documentation on this.
Zash
Certpocalypse!
emus
Sorry, may one break down the issue to me? I read the article and I understood that old android cannot handle their certs anymore with update, which then will also affect xmpp servers?
Zash
Least terrible is probably to pick an existing bundle, e.g. Mozillas.
Zash
Possibly a subset of it, if you're daring.
ralphm
Conversations has an option to distrust the OS certs, but I'm not sure if the manual approval stuff also works if you have this disabled (the default).
ralphm
Zash: well, only if you also correctly interpret the Trust Bits. I.e. their collections has certs to explicitly *not* trust.
ralphm
emus: I'm not too worried about the server part, but rather clients not being able to verify the certs the server is offering.
ralphm
emus: i.e. if indeed 90+% of servers use Let's Encrypt, with any manual intervention, those will start serving up certificates signed by the new root (indirectly), without cross signing by a root cert that is in the OS trust store on Android devices < 7.1.
ralphm
Starting in January
papatutuwawahas joined
marchas left
marchas joined
adiaholichas left
adiaholichas joined
intosihas joined
Ge0rG
There are also other related problems, like older androids not supporting TLS 1.2 by default
pasdesushihas left
pasdesushihas joined
ralphm
TLS 1.2 is supported from Android 5 and up, no?
Ge0rG
ralphm: supported from 4.1, enabled by default from 5
ralphm
According the table in the blog post, there are only 5.9% of devices on Android <5, so I'm a bit less worried about that.
Ge0rG
ralphm: how many android xmpp clients are there in the wild?
ralphm
No idea, TBH
Ge0rG
I only use one, and I know it'll gracefully degrade with certificates not signed by a trusted root. I'm sure there will be more significant actual compatibility problems.
pasdesushihas left
pasdesushihas joined
ralphm
Ge0rG: I hope you are right
j.rhas joined
DebXWoodyhas joined
Zash
Yeah, with Debian stable shipping with TLS < 1.2 disabled people should have noticed that by now.
wladmishas left
ralphm
TLS < 1.2 should have been obliterated by now.
wladmishas joined
Ge0rG
Which is one of the reasons I still haven't upgraded my server from oldstable. I have many Russian users on old Android phones
intosihas left
mdosch
Do you have stats how many percent use tls < 1.2?
ralphm
I hope you understand that leaves them open to an increasing set of vulnerabilities, though.
Arne
you should add 1.3 as standard and below as possible Ge0rG
TLS implementations generally pick the highest mutually supported version
ralphm
I'm sure that'll go over nicely in Russia :-D
Andrzejhas left
Arne
mh maybe it's in postfix or somewhere I set this Zash ✎
Arne
mh maybe it's in postfix or somewhere I've seen this Zash ✏
Arne
but no matter, 1.3 should always be added today
Ge0rG
Arne: no, because oldstable doesn't do 1.3
Arne
but can't you upgrade and still allow below 1.2?
tigranhas joined
Zash
Yes
Ge0rG
I suppose it should be possible to configure to support a superset of the oldstable ciphers
Zash
Some lines in a config file to poke
mdosch
See prosody@
pasdesushihas left
Ge0rG
ralphm: I'm not sure how I'm leaving owners of old phones leaving open to vulnerabilities by not locking them out
pasdesushihas joined
mukt2has left
Arne
in prosody it's an easy setting
ralphm
Ge0rG: I understand the dilemma.
Arne
like this maybe: https://prosody.im/doc/advanced_ssl_config
Zash
Noooooooooooooooo
mdosch
But if everything keeps compatibility for ancient and insecure stuff some won't ever update.
mdosch
Also I hate to throw away working devices due to missing SW support, too. Such a waste of ressources…
tigranhas left
mdosch
Zash: This site is legit now. Otherwise it would still be red blinking text on yellow ground. :D
Arne
oh wait it's a wrong site?
Ge0rG
mdosch: I'm not the patch police
Zash
Don't make me bring back Comic Sans
mdosch
I understand. But do you want to keep stretch forever until the last russian Android is updated?
mdoschforgot about comic sans on that site…
Ge0rG
At least not in my leasure time 😁😁😁
mdosch
Probably some self defense mechanism erased the memory.
Ge0rG
Why can you do big red comic sans on the ssl page but not on the IBR page?
adiaholichas left
adiaholichas joined
Ge0rG
But I think I've got most of the accidentally IBR servers down by now. The spam I'm still seeing mostly comes from large public servers
florettahas left
intosihas joined
florettahas joined
emus
> emus: i.e. if indeed 90+% of servers use Let's Encrypt, with any manual intervention, those will start serving up certificates signed by the new root (indirectly), without cross signing by a root cert that is in the OS trust store on Android devices < 7.1.
Thanks for clarifying. As I see no other way I can help: Anything you want/should announce through the newsletter?
inkyhas left
Zash
More acute cases of people shooting their entire security away from following random blogs that used that page as source.
mukt2has joined
pasdesushihas left
pasdesushihas joined
Ge0rG
emus: users can't do much, server operators should add that "alternate" flag to their acme client. Client developers should bundle the new root
pasdesushihas left
pasdesushihas joined
pasdesushihas left
pasdesushihas joined
pasdesushihas left
pasdesushihas joined
pasdesushihas left
pasdesushihas joined
peetahhas left
peetahhas joined
pasdesushihas left
pasdesushihas joined
alameyohas left
Arne
actually I set it up pretty good this way
ralphm
Zash: shouldn't that be incentive to make the page better? What is the default minimal version that ships with Prosody now?
Andrzejhas joined
Zash
ralphm, you mean replace the whole page with "the defaults are fine, no touchy" ? sure, that'd be an improvement
ralphm
Is the default TLS 1.2+ ?
Zash
ralphm, still TLS 1.0+, but distros may make that stricter. Likely be changed to 1.0+ in the next major version.
alameyohas joined
intosihas left
ralphmhas left
ralphmhas joined
mdosch
1.2+ you mean?
Zash
Right, yes, 1.2+
Ge0rG
There is also a difference between setting up a new server and upgrading an old one. You can get away with strict settings on a new box. People won't be able to register with their old clients.
Ge0rG
I can't just lock out my users from one day to the other
mukt2has left
mukt2has joined
ralphmhas left
ralphmhas joined
intosihas joined
Andrzejhas left
mukt2has left
mukt2has joined
intosihas left
Andrzejhas joined
florettahas left
DebXWoodyhas left
Shellhas joined
florettahas joined
jcbrandhas left
DebXWoodyhas joined
DebXWoodyhas left
DebXWoodyhas joined
mukt2has left
mukt2has joined
emushas left
Andrzejhas left
werdanhas joined
intosihas joined
strypeyhas joined
strypeyhas left
inkyhas joined
papatutuwawahas left
lovetoxhas left
intosihas left
strypeyhas joined
strypeyhas left
mukt2has left
Yagizahas left
strypeyhas joined
strypeyhas left
Andrzejhas joined
lovetoxhas joined
j.rhas left
werdanhas left
intosihas joined
werdanhas joined
emushas joined
j.rhas joined
Andrzejhas left
intosihas left
Andrzejhas joined
Alexhas left
Andrzejhas left
Andrzejhas joined
Mikaelahas left
emus
> emus: users can't do much, server operators should add that "alternate" flag to their acme client. Client developers should bundle the new root
But then I guess they may read the newsletter^^
lovetoxhas left
Andrzejhas left
emus
But wait - to get it correctly: The problem are actually the user devices, which are more than outdated, right? So the issue is a general one and LE calls server maintainers to ask their users to upgrade (to another closed source device which will be outdated soon)?
intosihas joined
florettahas left
lorddavidiiihas joined
nad287has left
intosihas left
Andrzejhas joined
florettahas joined
andrey.ghas joined
pasdesushihas left
pasdesushihas joined
intosihas joined
j.rhas left
pasdesushihas left
pasdesushihas joined
Andrzejhas left
Andrzejhas joined
pasdesushihas left
pasdesushihas joined
ralphm
Going forward this is less of a problem. The LE X1 root expires in 2035.
ralphm
Also, how open the platform is doesn't say anything about its continued future updates.
werdanhas left
moparisthebest
> I can't just lock out my users from one day to the other
moparisthebest
I mean if all the cellphone providers in the USA can why not you
ralphm
Yup, providers are turning off 2G GSM here in Europe, too.
moparisthebest
They just announced they are turning off 3g here, in January