XSF Discussion - 2020-11-22


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  144. Link Mauve Zash, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1010
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  146. jonas’ ohhh
  147. jonas’ intriguing
  148. Link Mauve I probably missed some elements, and the examples are too bright in order to not have to modify the other CSS, but it’s a starting point.
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  152. jonas’ doesn’t seem to work with my fennec
  153. jonas’ even though fennec itself is dark
  154. jonas’ oh wait
  155. Link Mauve I only tested with my laptop’s Firefox, not my phone’s.
  156. jonas’ my laptop firefox doesn’t know about dark mode at all -.-
  157. jonas’ only via about:config methinks
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  159. Link Mauve I configure mine from GTK’s settings.
  160. jonas’ no GTK here
  161. Link Mauve echo '[Settings] gtk-application-prefer-dark-theme = true' >> ~/.config/gtk-3.0/settings.ini
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  163. jonas’ works on my laptop’s firefox if I force it to dark
  164. Link Mauve Oh, do you build it with Qt support?
  165. jonas’ Link Mauve, no, but I don’t have any gtk tooling
  166. Link Mauve I didn’t know it still supported that.
  167. jonas’ I use whatever debian does
  168. Link Mauve Debian most likely builds Firefox with GTK.
  169. jonas’ sooo... on the platform which most natively supports dark mode (android), firefox (fennec) fails to respect it for websites, while it does for its own ui?
  170. jonas’ hm, I find the syntax highlighting hard to read
  171. jonas’ not sure this is an improvement
  172. Link Mauve I could make it fully white if you prefer.
  173. jonas’ yes, that or fixing the stylesheet of the syntax highlighter
  174. Link Mauve Or figure out XML colours which go better on a dark background.
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  177. Link Mauve jonas’, there.
  178. jonas’ now they’re dark
  179. jonas’ https://share.dreckshal.de/dpm/ZiGcUDzS8UZ3iGfpV-LiMoZHjhIvWmfvkGRZU8nyyAk.png
  180. Link Mauve Wut, did I forget to commit the prettify.css?
  181. jonas’ oh
  182. jonas’ sorry
  183. Link Mauve No I didn’t.
  184. jonas’ I was under the impression you only changed xmpp.css
  185. jonas’ I didn’t update prettify.css on my webserver
  186. jonas’ much better
  187. jonas’ this is great, thanks!
  188. Link Mauve :)
  189. jonas’ pushed
  190. jonas’ need to poke the docker stuff once it’s done, but lunch first
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  192. Link Mauve I should have done that years ago…
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  194. jonas’ no, that would’ve been with the old CSS ;)
  195. jonas’ huh
  196. jonas’ the change didn’t make it into the docker image
  197. jonas’ not sure why, need to look at it later, lunch first
  198. Link Mauve Enjoy. :)
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  204. Zash Ooooh
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  210. larma jonas’, I am not a big fan of Blurhash. I think it's not really well documented. https://github.com/woltapp/blurhash/blob/master/Algorithm.md is all you get. It uses custom, digit-based base 83 encoding, doesn't support alpha channel. And as far as I can see, it's not even heavily popular. Mastodon and Signal use it, and that's basically it. It just happen to be circulated within XMPP people for some reason and the word Blurhash is even used here as a synonym for "very small image scaled up in a blurry way" by some.
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  212. jonas’ larma, no, I specifically talk about blurhash
  213. jonas’ by that I mean the entire package, because I looked at it and I consider it a reasonable and smart solution to the problem
  214. jonas’ in contrast to taking an 8x8 JPEG/PNG and scaling that up with a bilinear filter
  215. jonas’ I’m not sure how alpha channels would even work with such a technology, that needs more thought
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  217. larma why do you think it's smart comparing to a simple bitmap? I wouldn't take jpeg or png because they have huge overhead for small size images
  218. larma classic pc bitmap, you now this old .bmp, is much better for very small images
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  221. larma 4x3 = 12 32-bit colors are just 48 byte, encode them using base64 and you get 64 ascii chars. Yes a 4x3 blurhash is "just" 28 ascii chars. But given the overall overhead we have in XMPP that's not a huge thing. Also as quality of blurhash isn't exactly comparable with 32-bit color, we can easily reduce this by half (using 16-bit colors) and reach a size that is pretty close.
  222. jonas’ Link Mauve, there, it’s live (cc @ Zash)
  223. Zash Shiny, thanks Link Mauve
  224. Link Mauve Woohoo!
  225. larma jonas’, test image: http://larma.de/blur_sample_base.jpg 4x3 blurhash: http://larma.de/blur_sample_blurhash_4x3.jpg image scaled to 4x3, reduced color depth to 12-bit (no alpha) and then scaled up again, both scaling used cubic interpolation: http://larma.de/blur_sample_cubic_scaled_4x3.jpg
  226. Link Mauve Tbh I don’t recognise any feature of the original image in either of the 4×3.
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  228. jonas’ larma, can you use cubic in browsers?
  229. larma well, you can see a rough estimate of the color
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  231. Link Mauve jonas’, you can use any algorithm with the <canvas> API.
  232. Zash Point is to have something to show until you download the actual image
  233. jonas’ Link Mauve, sure
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  235. larma The problem is that if you don't have alpha in the preview you can't correctly display it if the final image has alpha and you want to display it on background of varying color (which we need to consider in a heterogenous environment like public XMPP network). You certainly could add an alpha component to blurhash, but then you couldn't reuse existing implementations, making it probably harder to use (and not smaller in size) than just using bitmap data.
  236. jonas’ larma, not wrong, but I wonder how that cubic interpolation of yours would look like with alpha
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  240. larma I guess cubic interpolation isn't that good for images that typically have alpha. It works good for photos, not necessarily for graphics
  241. jonas’ yep
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  243. jonas’ downscaling alpha also doesn’t work wel
  244. jonas’ downscaling alpha also doesn’t work well
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  248. larma but blurhash also doesn't work well for anything that is not photos, so that's a general issue for these kinds of things
  249. jonas’ exactly
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  252. jonas’ but I guess one could pick a blurhash-y thing for JPEG input and a simple downscaled bitmap for non-JPEG input
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  254. larma with alpha: http://larma.de/blur_cat_base.png image scaled to 4x4 (32-bit with alpha) and scaled up to original: http://larma.de/blur_cat_cubic_scaled_4x4.png
  255. jonas’ hm, probably OK on a uniform coloured background
  256. jonas’ hm, probably OK on a uniformly coloured background
  257. larma would probably have more effect on images where more than just a few pixels on the edges have transparency
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  263. larma http://larma.de/blur_xmpp_base.png, http://larma.de/blur_xmpp_cubic_scaled_4x4.png
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  266. larma in any case scaling down to very small images and reducing color depth and then scaling up again gives decent enough results, at least on the same level of blurhash, if you use some more advanced interpolation. If for some reason your platform does not allow you to do this, but you can do gaussian blur, an alternative would be to use no interpolation when scaling up and then apply gaussian blur (with radius set to scaling factor) on the few "very large pixels". Results should be similar.
  267. larma especially implementation work for everyone who can't use any of the existing encoder and decoders is going to be much less when being based on simple rgb bitmaps instead of complex encodings.
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  273. jonas’ sure
  274. jonas’ makes sense
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  341. Zash MattJ, jcbrand, either of you happen to have an updated XEP-0317: Hats somewhere in your TODOs?
  342. MattJ Yes
  343. MattJ edhelas also expressed an interest in it recently, maybe he'll beat me to it
  344. SamWhited I think a lot of distros (maybe Debian?) enable Firefox's anti-fingerprinting protections by default (which disables dark mode entirely)
  345. SamWhited For whomever was saying it wasn't working in Firefox.
  346. Zash Wasn't that Firefox mobile? Worksforme with Firefox on Debian
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  351. SamWhited oh, fair, I just saw "doesn't work in Firefox" in the history and was taking a wild-ass guess. So grain of salt.
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  370. moparisthebest Zash: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/darkreader/ actually seems to work great on almost all sites
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  372. mathieui moparisthebest, yes but is quite heavy
  373. mathieui (I mean if you don’t have a recent multicore machine you will struggle on anything but simple pages like linkmauve.fr)
  374. Link Mauve linkmauve.fr once again > *
  375. moparisthebest I haven't noticed any problems, I even use it on my android firefox
  376. Zash Good thing I broke my new laptop and only use a 9 year old thinkpad.
  377. Zash (stationary thinkpad, grown stuck to my desk)
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  380. mathieui moparisthebest, I noticed on an i7-7700k with 16GB of ram
  381. eta can't reach linkmauve.fr
  382. Link Mauve :o
  383. eta Link Mauve, oh, you don't do port 80
  384. Link Mauve No, only port 443.
  385. Link Mauve It should be part of hsts preload though.
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  387. eta huh, so it is
  388. eta (checking hstspreload.org)
  389. eta that reminds me, I need to fix HSTS on theta.eu.org
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  393. Ge0rG HSTS preload. Whoever had that idea needs to be punished in horrible ways. I mean, yes, it works for something like the top 1000, but how are you supposed to bundle all the crypto nerds' homepages into all the browsers?
  394. moparisthebest seems to be working no?
  395. Ge0rG So I need to submit all my websites to make it break?
  396. moparisthebest submit them all, it'll be fine
  397. Zash inb4 Ge0rG submits <every uuid>.example
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  399. Zash Aren't browsers also shipping CRLs embedded? And all sorts of stuff
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  405. Zash Ge0rG: Looks like it's only 12MB uncompressed JSON https://github.com/chromium/chromium/blob/master/net/http/transport_security_state_static.json
  406. Ge0rG Zash: well yes, that's *before* I submitted all my domain names! 😁
  407. jonas’ SamWhited, I have the issue on android, and it’s officially not supported according to MDN
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  432. lovetox that there is a execute action and an execute attribute and both have defaults if absent
  433. lovetox is beyond confusin in 0050
  434. Zash yeah
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  436. lovetox The action "execute" is equivalent to the action specified in the "execute" attribute. If the "execute" attribute is absent, it defaults to "next".
  437. lovetox that sentence is a real treat
  438. lovetox what default to next here
  439. lovetox the action or the attribute
  440. Zash You're telling me it's still confusing after this went trough council? :/
  441. lovetox actually no
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  444. lovetox the way this is written, it must be the attribute that is meant
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  452. Ge0rG It was even more confusing, and then there was a long discussion how to remove the confusion without changing any normative text
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  458. lovetox it would be so much clearer if the execute action simply did not exist
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  461. Zash I was thinking that execute = start
  462. lovetox execute = everything
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  483. lovetox wait, is the execute action a real action element?
  484. lovetox its not in any of the examples
  485. Zash Isn't it the first step?
  486. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0050.html#execute-simple
  487. lovetox yes
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  489. lovetox the question was, will i see in real life ever a <execute/> element
  490. Zash no
  491. lovetox no
  492. lovetox yeah, ok starts to make more sense slowly
  493. lovetox would be useless
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  497. Zash action=execute → status=executing → { action=next|prev|complete } → status=completed
  498. lovetox ah so i can simply never send action=execute
  499. lovetox except for the first command
  500. Zash you MAY, or not. it's the only option at that point, so redundant
  501. lovetox ok that makes it simpler
  502. lovetox because from a gui standpoint, if i draw buttons next, prev, etc
  503. lovetox but when clicking on them i send "execute" suddenly
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  505. Zash Link Mauve, p.box (Note: ...) has black text
  506. Lance you can send action=execute any time. but it's the "idk what i want, you decide for me" option. so the responder decides what actually happens
  507. Link Mauve Zash, do you want to fix it, or should I do it?
  508. Zash Link Mauve: Do *you* want to? I can, but not now.
  509. Lance i'd wouldn't send action=execute if a user actually clicked on a prev/next/complete button, just the explicit action the user chose
  510. Link Mauve Zash, I’m working on Jingle stuff.
  511. Link Mauve I can do it at some point too.
  512. lovetox yeah Lance thats what i also think
  513. Lance only time id consider using action=execute would for some automated exchange, where i just want to fast track though the default happy path the responder wants
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  515. Lance but even then, ehhh
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  518. lovetox oh wow just found this
  519. lovetox If the <actions/> possesses the "execute" attribute, that value is the default button or option. If the <actions/> does not possess the "execute" attribute, there is no default button or option.
  520. lovetox thats what i was actually searching
  521. lovetox so i just pick whatever the execute attr tells me and color my button
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  524. lovetox and i never have to actually send execute or even care what it "defaults" to if its not htere
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  527. Lance yeah, the whole execute attribute thing is entirely for UI guidance/hinting on the submitter side. if you're the responder and receive action=execute it just means you get to choose what happens instead of the submitter choosing
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  530. Lance the ambiguity in the model comes from when the responder provides (or doesn't provide any) UI hints that match what it would choose
  531. Zash Ought to have been called "default", but oh well
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  533. Lance err, UI hints that _do not match_ what it would choose
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  542. lovetox i think the problem is that i trys to fill 2 jobs
  543. lovetox first provide a UI hint
  544. lovetox 2. for this rare usecase where i just want to send "execute"
  545. lovetox i wonder how a xmpp lib fullfills both things
  546. lovetox because the xep says, execute defaults to "next"
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  548. lovetox but obviously a xmpp lib should not fill the var with "next" otherwise the UI doesnt know that there was no default action and no UI hint should be given
  549. lovetox either way, after working this out now, i treat it only as UI hint client side
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  551. lovetox and i dont default it to "next", because not set means no hint should be given
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