XSF Discussion - 2020-11-22

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  144. Link Mauve

    Zash, https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1010

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  146. jonas’


  147. jonas’


  148. Link Mauve

    I probably missed some elements, and the examples are too bright in order to not have to modify the other CSS, but it’s a starting point.

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  152. jonas’

    doesn’t seem to work with my fennec

  153. jonas’

    even though fennec itself is dark

  154. jonas’

    oh wait

  155. Link Mauve

    I only tested with my laptop’s Firefox, not my phone’s.

  156. jonas’

    my laptop firefox doesn’t know about dark mode at all -.-

  157. jonas’

    only via about:config methinks

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  159. Link Mauve

    I configure mine from GTK’s settings.

  160. jonas’

    no GTK here

  161. Link Mauve

    echo '[Settings] gtk-application-prefer-dark-theme = true' >> ~/.config/gtk-3.0/settings.ini

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  163. jonas’

    works on my laptop’s firefox if I force it to dark

  164. Link Mauve

    Oh, do you build it with Qt support?

  165. jonas’

    Link Mauve, no, but I don’t have any gtk tooling

  166. Link Mauve

    I didn’t know it still supported that.

  167. jonas’

    I use whatever debian does

  168. Link Mauve

    Debian most likely builds Firefox with GTK.

  169. jonas’

    sooo... on the platform which most natively supports dark mode (android), firefox (fennec) fails to respect it for websites, while it does for its own ui?

  170. jonas’

    hm, I find the syntax highlighting hard to read

  171. jonas’

    not sure this is an improvement

  172. Link Mauve

    I could make it fully white if you prefer.

  173. jonas’

    yes, that or fixing the stylesheet of the syntax highlighter

  174. Link Mauve

    Or figure out XML colours which go better on a dark background.

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  177. Link Mauve

    jonas’, there.

  178. jonas’

    now they’re dark

  179. jonas’


  180. Link Mauve

    Wut, did I forget to commit the prettify.css?

  181. jonas’


  182. jonas’


  183. Link Mauve

    No I didn’t.

  184. jonas’

    I was under the impression you only changed xmpp.css

  185. jonas’

    I didn’t update prettify.css on my webserver

  186. jonas’

    much better

  187. jonas’

    this is great, thanks!

  188. Link Mauve


  189. jonas’


  190. jonas’

    need to poke the docker stuff once it’s done, but lunch first

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  192. Link Mauve

    I should have done that years ago…

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  194. jonas’

    no, that would’ve been with the old CSS ;)

  195. jonas’


  196. jonas’

    the change didn’t make it into the docker image

  197. jonas’

    not sure why, need to look at it later, lunch first

  198. Link Mauve

    Enjoy. :)

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  204. Zash


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  210. larma

    jonas’, I am not a big fan of Blurhash. I think it's not really well documented. https://github.com/woltapp/blurhash/blob/master/Algorithm.md is all you get. It uses custom, digit-based base 83 encoding, doesn't support alpha channel. And as far as I can see, it's not even heavily popular. Mastodon and Signal use it, and that's basically it. It just happen to be circulated within XMPP people for some reason and the word Blurhash is even used here as a synonym for "very small image scaled up in a blurry way" by some.

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  212. jonas’

    larma, no, I specifically talk about blurhash

  213. jonas’

    by that I mean the entire package, because I looked at it and I consider it a reasonable and smart solution to the problem

  214. jonas’

    in contrast to taking an 8x8 JPEG/PNG and scaling that up with a bilinear filter

  215. jonas’

    I’m not sure how alpha channels would even work with such a technology, that needs more thought

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  217. larma

    why do you think it's smart comparing to a simple bitmap? I wouldn't take jpeg or png because they have huge overhead for small size images

  218. larma

    classic pc bitmap, you now this old .bmp, is much better for very small images

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  221. larma

    4x3 = 12 32-bit colors are just 48 byte, encode them using base64 and you get 64 ascii chars. Yes a 4x3 blurhash is "just" 28 ascii chars. But given the overall overhead we have in XMPP that's not a huge thing. Also as quality of blurhash isn't exactly comparable with 32-bit color, we can easily reduce this by half (using 16-bit colors) and reach a size that is pretty close.

  222. jonas’

    Link Mauve, there, it’s live (cc @ Zash)

  223. Zash

    Shiny, thanks Link Mauve

  224. Link Mauve


  225. larma

    jonas’, test image: http://larma.de/blur_sample_base.jpg 4x3 blurhash: http://larma.de/blur_sample_blurhash_4x3.jpg image scaled to 4x3, reduced color depth to 12-bit (no alpha) and then scaled up again, both scaling used cubic interpolation: http://larma.de/blur_sample_cubic_scaled_4x3.jpg

  226. Link Mauve

    Tbh I don’t recognise any feature of the original image in either of the 4×3.

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  228. jonas’

    larma, can you use cubic in browsers?

  229. larma

    well, you can see a rough estimate of the color

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  231. Link Mauve

    jonas’, you can use any algorithm with the <canvas> API.

  232. Zash

    Point is to have something to show until you download the actual image

  233. jonas’

    Link Mauve, sure

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  235. larma

    The problem is that if you don't have alpha in the preview you can't correctly display it if the final image has alpha and you want to display it on background of varying color (which we need to consider in a heterogenous environment like public XMPP network). You certainly could add an alpha component to blurhash, but then you couldn't reuse existing implementations, making it probably harder to use (and not smaller in size) than just using bitmap data.

  236. jonas’

    larma, not wrong, but I wonder how that cubic interpolation of yours would look like with alpha

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  240. larma

    I guess cubic interpolation isn't that good for images that typically have alpha. It works good for photos, not necessarily for graphics

  241. jonas’


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  243. jonas’

    downscaling alpha also doesn’t work wel

  244. jonas’

    downscaling alpha also doesn’t work well

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  248. larma

    but blurhash also doesn't work well for anything that is not photos, so that's a general issue for these kinds of things

  249. jonas’


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  252. jonas’

    but I guess one could pick a blurhash-y thing for JPEG input and a simple downscaled bitmap for non-JPEG input

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  254. larma

    with alpha: http://larma.de/blur_cat_base.png image scaled to 4x4 (32-bit with alpha) and scaled up to original: http://larma.de/blur_cat_cubic_scaled_4x4.png

  255. jonas’

    hm, probably OK on a uniform coloured background

  256. jonas’

    hm, probably OK on a uniformly coloured background

  257. larma

    would probably have more effect on images where more than just a few pixels on the edges have transparency

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  263. larma

    http://larma.de/blur_xmpp_base.png, http://larma.de/blur_xmpp_cubic_scaled_4x4.png

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  266. larma

    in any case scaling down to very small images and reducing color depth and then scaling up again gives decent enough results, at least on the same level of blurhash, if you use some more advanced interpolation. If for some reason your platform does not allow you to do this, but you can do gaussian blur, an alternative would be to use no interpolation when scaling up and then apply gaussian blur (with radius set to scaling factor) on the few "very large pixels". Results should be similar.

  267. larma

    especially implementation work for everyone who can't use any of the existing encoder and decoders is going to be much less when being based on simple rgb bitmaps instead of complex encodings.

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  274. jonas’

    makes sense

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  341. Zash

    MattJ, jcbrand, either of you happen to have an updated XEP-0317: Hats somewhere in your TODOs?

  342. MattJ


  343. MattJ

    edhelas also expressed an interest in it recently, maybe he'll beat me to it

  344. SamWhited

    I think a lot of distros (maybe Debian?) enable Firefox's anti-fingerprinting protections by default (which disables dark mode entirely)

  345. SamWhited

    For whomever was saying it wasn't working in Firefox.

  346. Zash

    Wasn't that Firefox mobile? Worksforme with Firefox on Debian

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  351. SamWhited

    oh, fair, I just saw "doesn't work in Firefox" in the history and was taking a wild-ass guess. So grain of salt.

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  370. moparisthebest

    Zash: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/darkreader/ actually seems to work great on almost all sites

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  372. mathieui

    moparisthebest, yes but is quite heavy

  373. mathieui

    (I mean if you don’t have a recent multicore machine you will struggle on anything but simple pages like linkmauve.fr)

  374. Link Mauve

    linkmauve.fr once again > *

  375. moparisthebest

    I haven't noticed any problems, I even use it on my android firefox

  376. Zash

    Good thing I broke my new laptop and only use a 9 year old thinkpad.

  377. Zash

    (stationary thinkpad, grown stuck to my desk)

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  380. mathieui

    moparisthebest, I noticed on an i7-7700k with 16GB of ram

  381. eta can't reach linkmauve.fr

  382. Link Mauve


  383. eta

    Link Mauve, oh, you don't do port 80

  384. Link Mauve

    No, only port 443.

  385. Link Mauve

    It should be part of hsts preload though.

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  387. eta

    huh, so it is

  388. eta

    (checking hstspreload.org)

  389. eta

    that reminds me, I need to fix HSTS on theta.eu.org

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  393. Ge0rG

    HSTS preload. Whoever had that idea needs to be punished in horrible ways. I mean, yes, it works for something like the top 1000, but how are you supposed to bundle all the crypto nerds' homepages into all the browsers?

  394. moparisthebest

    seems to be working no?

  395. Ge0rG

    So I need to submit all my websites to make it break?

  396. moparisthebest

    submit them all, it'll be fine

  397. Zash

    inb4 Ge0rG submits <every uuid>.example

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  399. Zash

    Aren't browsers also shipping CRLs embedded? And all sorts of stuff

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  405. Zash

    Ge0rG: Looks like it's only 12MB uncompressed JSON https://github.com/chromium/chromium/blob/master/net/http/transport_security_state_static.json

  406. Ge0rG

    Zash: well yes, that's *before* I submitted all my domain names! 😁

  407. jonas’

    SamWhited, I have the issue on android, and it’s officially not supported according to MDN

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  432. lovetox

    that there is a execute action and an execute attribute and both have defaults if absent

  433. lovetox

    is beyond confusin in 0050

  434. Zash


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  436. lovetox

    The action "execute" is equivalent to the action specified in the "execute" attribute. If the "execute" attribute is absent, it defaults to "next".

  437. lovetox

    that sentence is a real treat

  438. lovetox

    what default to next here

  439. lovetox

    the action or the attribute

  440. Zash

    You're telling me it's still confusing after this went trough council? :/

  441. lovetox

    actually no

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  444. lovetox

    the way this is written, it must be the attribute that is meant

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  452. Ge0rG

    It was even more confusing, and then there was a long discussion how to remove the confusion without changing any normative text

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  458. lovetox

    it would be so much clearer if the execute action simply did not exist

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  461. Zash

    I was thinking that execute = start

  462. lovetox

    execute = everything

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  483. lovetox

    wait, is the execute action a real action element?

  484. lovetox

    its not in any of the examples

  485. Zash

    Isn't it the first step?

  486. Zash


  487. lovetox


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  489. lovetox

    the question was, will i see in real life ever a <execute/> element

  490. Zash


  491. lovetox


  492. lovetox

    yeah, ok starts to make more sense slowly

  493. lovetox

    would be useless

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  497. Zash

    action=execute → status=executing → { action=next|prev|complete } → status=completed

  498. lovetox

    ah so i can simply never send action=execute

  499. lovetox

    except for the first command

  500. Zash

    you MAY, or not. it's the only option at that point, so redundant

  501. lovetox

    ok that makes it simpler

  502. lovetox

    because from a gui standpoint, if i draw buttons next, prev, etc

  503. lovetox

    but when clicking on them i send "execute" suddenly

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  505. Zash

    Link Mauve, p.box (Note: ...) has black text

  506. Lance

    you can send action=execute any time. but it's the "idk what i want, you decide for me" option. so the responder decides what actually happens

  507. Link Mauve

    Zash, do you want to fix it, or should I do it?

  508. Zash

    Link Mauve: Do *you* want to? I can, but not now.

  509. Lance

    i'd wouldn't send action=execute if a user actually clicked on a prev/next/complete button, just the explicit action the user chose

  510. Link Mauve

    Zash, I’m working on Jingle stuff.

  511. Link Mauve

    I can do it at some point too.

  512. lovetox

    yeah Lance thats what i also think

  513. Lance

    only time id consider using action=execute would for some automated exchange, where i just want to fast track though the default happy path the responder wants

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  515. Lance

    but even then, ehhh

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  518. lovetox

    oh wow just found this

  519. lovetox

    If the <actions/> possesses the "execute" attribute, that value is the default button or option. If the <actions/> does not possess the "execute" attribute, there is no default button or option.

  520. lovetox

    thats what i was actually searching

  521. lovetox

    so i just pick whatever the execute attr tells me and color my button

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  524. lovetox

    and i never have to actually send execute or even care what it "defaults" to if its not htere

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  527. Lance

    yeah, the whole execute attribute thing is entirely for UI guidance/hinting on the submitter side. if you're the responder and receive action=execute it just means you get to choose what happens instead of the submitter choosing

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  530. Lance

    the ambiguity in the model comes from when the responder provides (or doesn't provide any) UI hints that match what it would choose

  531. Zash

    Ought to have been called "default", but oh well

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  533. Lance

    err, UI hints that _do not match_ what it would choose

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  542. lovetox

    i think the problem is that i trys to fill 2 jobs

  543. lovetox

    first provide a UI hint

  544. lovetox

    2. for this rare usecase where i just want to send "execute"

  545. lovetox

    i wonder how a xmpp lib fullfills both things

  546. lovetox

    because the xep says, execute defaults to "next"

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  548. lovetox

    but obviously a xmpp lib should not fill the var with "next" otherwise the UI doesnt know that there was no default action and no UI hint should be given

  549. lovetox

    either way, after working this out now, i treat it only as UI hint client side

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  551. lovetox

    and i dont default it to "next", because not set means no hint should be given

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