XSF Discussion - 2020-11-24

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  248. SamWhited

    Sanity check, is it possible to have one element with two XMLNS attributes? I can't find a rule forbidding it, but I have no idea what the actual namespace is of <a xmlns="foo" xmlns="bar"/>

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  250. flow

    SamWhited, I'd expect there to be a rule that a attribute is unique within an element

  251. flow

    One can generalize your question if <element foo='bar' foo='baz'/> is allowed

  252. SamWhited

    Maybe. The XML spec treats all kinds of attributes differently. It's very confusing.

  253. Link Mauve

    flow, xmlns isn’t an attribute though, not in XML 1.0 + Namespaces.

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  256. Zash

    I'd go with "Wait, that's illegal"

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  260. SamWhited

    The reason I'm questioning myself is that I found some tests in an xml library that seem to deliberately do this, and looking through the spec I can't find anywhere that it says that it's illegal (but again, huge spec). I *assumed* it was, now I'm not sure.

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  262. Zash

    > Received invalid XML (duplicate attribute) The parser has spoken.

  263. flow

    Link Mauve, care to elaborate?

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  265. SamWhited

    Zash: unfortunately the other parser (admittedly, one I don't trust at all) seems to be deliberately checking that this is okay. The parsers are arguing :)

  266. Zash


  267. Zash

    Can't tell if this is the requirements for XML or for XML Schema tho

  268. Zash

    > An attribute name MUST NOT appear more than once in the same start-tag or empty-element tag.

  269. Zash

    That one seems clear enough tho

  270. flow

    given that all parsers I know about return at most a single value for an attribute, i think this applies to XML

  271. SamWhited

    oh cool, thanks, that's what I was hoping for, thanks

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  342. arne

    Hi, this Tech Page could be improved I thing when using xep-0368 with nginx only

  343. arne


  344. arne

    When I use the settings described port 5222 doesnt work anymore. So I just added 5222 in the upstream

  345. jonas’

    arne, you can get a wiki account to fix it yourself if you want to :)

  346. arne

    Alright jonas' I'll do 😀

  347. arne

    If it's really right what I say?

  348. Ge0rG

    arne: I'm not sure it's right.

  349. arne

    If it's really right what I mean?

  350. Ge0rG

    arne: 5222 is STARTTLS, not direct TLS, so it doesn't have ALPN

  351. Ge0rG

    arne: normally nginx shouldn't listen on 5222

  352. jonas’

    pinging moparisthebest

  353. jonas’

    I think they maintain that page effectively

  354. arne

    mh, so how to support 5222 then? just by using sslh?

  355. arne

    strange think, it does work for me now

  356. jonas’

    arne, to clarify, by 5222 you actually mean xmpp-client, right?

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  358. arne

    yes actually

  359. moparisthebest

    arne: the example nginx config there doesn't mention 5222

  360. Ge0rG

    arne: just let 5222 be managed by your xmpp server?

  361. arne

    I did, but it didn't connect then, when using nginx for xmpp over https

  362. jonas’

    moparisthebest, the config does claim to put 443 into _xmpp-client (note the absent `s`) too, though, which confuses me and doesn’t seem to work

  363. moparisthebest

    sslh will muliplex 5222/regular XMPP, nginx will not

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  365. arne

    so I need to use sslh if I want 5223, 443 and 5222 working?

  366. jonas’

    arne, no

  367. moparisthebest

    The example srv records work for that sslh config but not that nginx config

  368. jonas’

    but you need sslh if you want to have 443 in _xmpp-client

  369. moparisthebest

    Guess it should say that...

  370. arne

    yes the dns setup is for sslh.

  371. moparisthebest

    arne: simply don't set the xmpp-client srv record at 443

  372. moparisthebest

    Leave the xmpps one

  373. arne

    alright, will try this. Thanks!

  374. moparisthebest

    arne: but name and shame the bad client that refused to fall back to 5222 like it should :)

  375. jonas’

    moparisthebest, observe.jabber.network complained :)

  376. jonas’

    (like it should)

  377. moparisthebest

    Oh I agree complaints are in order, some clients stop falling back prematurely though, which is wrong

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  384. Arne

    MH, still the problem with 5222

  385. Arne

    but with conversations

  386. Arne

    but with conversations and also with oberserve.jabber tool

  387. Arne

    but with conversations and also with oberserve.jabber tool. oh wait frogot that DNS settings need some time..

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  389. arne

    nevertheless looks like conversations doens't fall back to 5222 when I block the rest...

  390. moparisthebest

    Conversations does

  391. moparisthebest

    Unless it's been broken very recently

  392. arne

    But I only had port 5222 open nothing else

  393. jonas’

    arne, maybe give it a while, your DNS records had a TTL of a day...

  394. jonas’

    may take a while to age out

  395. arne

    Alright, I stop spaming 🙂

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  426. Ge0rG

    DNS: 72 hours is a sane default for something you can't change retroactively HTTP: our WordPress is rendering each request to / individually, using a dozen database requests, just in case!

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  428. Zash

    Hey I have my DNS in a database and my website is statically generated!

  429. Ge0rG

    Zash: sounds like you need DoH then

  430. jonas’

    Ge0rG, ECHAN?

  431. jonas’

    I think we don’t have a wordpress.

  432. Ge0rG

    jonas’: well, the whole discussion probably belonged to jdev

  433. Ge0rG

    Maybe operators

  434. jonas’

    Ge0rG, is that an attempt to pull an "But they’re doing it wrong too!!kk" to save yourself? ;)

  435. lovetox

    i think the red elements in the new dark layout of the XEPs is barely readable

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  437. Ge0rG

    jonas’: no, it was a general remark about the tradeoffs at different protocol layers. I would never deploy WordPress myself, and would probably exit from projects that do

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  439. jonas’

    lovetox, PRs welcome!

  440. Alex

    Reminder, we have our annual member meeting in ~30 minutes to approve voting results

  441. jonas’

    thanks Alex

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  445. Ge0rG

    Can we just refuse to leave the Council MUC and involve SCOTUS to contest the results?

  446. SamWhited

    Ge0rG: only if you have a crack legal team that involves too much hair dye and the ghost of Hugo Chavez

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  466. Alex

    Ge0rG, 🤣 🤣

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  469. Ge0rG

    It's time, isn't it?

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  472. Alex

    ya, its prime time

  473. jonas’


  474. Ge0rG

    I'm not curious at all

  475. Alex bangs the gavel

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  477. Alex

    here is our Agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-11-24

  478. jonas’


  479. Alex

    1) Call for Quorum

  480. Alex

    as you can see 36 members voted via proxy, so we have a quorum

  481. Alex

    2) Items Subject to a Vote

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  483. Alex

    Board and Council elections, you can see the applicants here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2020

  484. Alex

    3) Opportunity for XSF members to Vote in the Meeting

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  486. Alex

    anyone here who has not voted yet and wants to do so now?

  487. Alex

    memberbot is sill online to accepts votes

  488. Alex

    3 ...

  489. Alex

    2 ...

  490. Alex

    1 ...

  491. Alex

    nobody wants to vote in the meeting

  492. Alex

    so I will close the voting and will fetch the results

  493. Alex

    let me work on the results, will be back shortly

  494. jonas’

    good luck

  495. SamWhited


  496. jonas’ resists to make any jokes about stopping the count or mail-in ballots.

  497. Link Mauve


  498. guus.der.kinderen

    we all have the "FAKE ELECTIONS! I WON!" lines ready to be used, right?

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  500. Daniel

    Still too soon probably...

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  504. jonas’

    Daniel, not sure if "too soon" because there are no results yet or "too soon" because Nov 3rd isn’t that much in the past

  505. Link Mauve

    I demand a recount!

  506. SamWhited

    It really is, I'm torn between smiling and horror :) once Georgia's through its runoffs in January maybe I'll lighten up a bit

  507. jonas’

    SamWhited, how about a creepy horror movie girl grin?

  508. guus.der.kinderen

    I recall that recounts cost the requestee something along the line of a few million USD? I'm thinking that Alex is willing to accomodate you, Link Mauve...

  509. SamWhited

    jonas’: yah, that's been me for the last couple of years pretty much constantly

  510. jonas’

    guus.der.kinderen, we’ll have a recount and we’ll make New Vector pay for it!!k

  511. SamWhited

    guus.der.kinderen: it depends, in Georgia the tax payers pay for it if it's within a certain margin, so I guess we'll have to deduct it from our membership dues

  512. Ge0rG

    jonas’: make the Council room invite only!

  513. jonas’

    Ge0rG, I’d rather accidentally close s2s connections

  514. jonas’

    repeatedly accidentally

  515. jonas’

    otherwise it’s too obvious!

  516. Ge0rG

    jonas’: during the election, not afterwards

  517. jonas’

    now you lost me

  518. Alex

    okay, I am back

  519. Ge0rG

    jonas’: stop counting late votes by closing s2s to memberbot

  520. jonas’

    welcome back Alex. nevermind the backlog :)

  521. guus.der.kinderen

    apologies for the backlog.

  522. Alex

    4) Announcement of Voting Results

  523. Alex

    When you reload the page at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-11-24 you can see the results

  524. jonas’

    I know that gang

  525. Alex

    you can order by headers on the Wiki tables

  526. SamWhited

    Congrats all

  527. jonas’

    congratulations all, specially MattJ for 0 No votes.

  528. Alex

    new board will be: Matthew Wild Dave Cridland Arc Riley Severino Ferrer Ralph Meijer

  529. Ge0rG


  530. Link Mauve

    Congrats everyone!

  531. Alex

    Top 5 on council are: Daniel Gultsch Jonas Schäfer Georg Lukas Kim Alvefur Dave Cridland

  532. Alex

    very close election again

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  535. Daniel

    > congratulations all, specially MattJ for 0 No votes. +1

  536. Alex

    congrats everyone, and thanks for all applicants for applying

  537. jonas’

    Ge0rG, Daniel, Zash, dwd, I assume tomorrow the usual time works? larma, in case dwd decides to forfeit his seat in Council in favour of Board, it’d be good to have you there, too (16:00Z)

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  539. Alex

    5) Any other Business?

  540. jonas’


  541. Daniel


  542. jonas’

    what do we need to do in order to invite a non-XSF-Member to the Dinner? Do we need a formal vote for that?

  543. Daniel

    What dinner?

  544. jonas’

    (i mean, it obviously is irrelevant for the upcoming year anyway)

  545. Link Mauve

    Could the dinner even happen this year?

  546. Link Mauve


  547. jonas’

    but I wanted to put the thought out as I know of someone who we should definitely invite if and when we can.

  548. jonas’

    if nobody knows off the top of their heads, I’ll bring this up to board+1 and that’s ok.

  549. dwd

    Broadly, board decides who comes, and whether they pay.

  550. Daniel

    I think in the past non members have been invited by the sponsor

  551. jonas’

    dwd, ITYM Boardly.

  552. guus.der.kinderen

    I do not think that in invitation is required?

  553. jonas’

    guus.der.kinderen, invitation as in "paid for"

  554. jonas’

    anyway, I’ll bring it up with board then, thanks

  555. jonas’

    no further AOB from me

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  557. Alex

    6) Formal Adjournment

  558. Alex

    I motion that we adjourn

  559. SamWhited


  560. guus.der.kinderen


  561. Alex bangs the gavel

  562. guus.der.kinderen

    Thanks Alex!

  563. dwd

    We used to have +1's, but board decided that was just being used to invite anyone who might want to come. But maybe that was better anyway.

  564. SamWhited

    Thanks Alex; great job, as always :)

  565. Alex

    thanks everyone 👍

  566. Zash

    Thanks Alex

  567. dwd

    Depends if we have sufficient budget, really.

  568. dwd

    Thanks Alex!

  569. Alex

    we can always try to find more sponsors

  570. Alex

    if its only 1 person it should be easy

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  573. Link Mauve

    Zash, your note change made the Disclaimer of Warranty unreadable in every XEP.

  574. Link Mauve

    Maybe change its background too.

  575. Zash

    Oh no

  576. Link Mauve

    Yeah, that’s .info

  577. jonas’

    Oh no

  578. Zash

    Why .box, why?

  579. MattJ

    Congratulations all, and welcome back arc :)

  580. jonas’


  581. jonas’

    Zash, feel free to make it something more sane in the XSL

  582. jonas’

    I’d welcome that

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  610. jonas’

    Ge0rG, FYI, I assigned a new namespace to XEP-0445 during acceptance

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  612. jonas’

    I hope I didn’t mess that up, please check and PR otherwise

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  619. Ge0rG

    jonas’: I'll check tomorrow. I hoped to be able to use the same namespace for both.

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  661. emus

    Congratulations to all elected ones! I didnt realised there was a no-vote option and I am a bit shocked how many seem to make use of that. 🤔

  662. emus

    Alex: Would you mind to write a little announcement? I can place it in the newsletter. I think it is good to show that we have those kind of processes in the XSF.

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  693. lskdjf

    emus, there is indeed no "No" option. People have up to 5 votes. As far as I see, candidates that didn't get one of those are counted as "No", even though you did not actually vote against them. The meeting minutes are actually somewhat misleading in that sense. Perhaps it would make sense to clarify them?

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