XSF Discussion - 2020-11-24

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  248. SamWhited Sanity check, is it possible to have one element with two XMLNS attributes? I can't find a rule forbidding it, but I have no idea what the actual namespace is of <a xmlns="foo" xmlns="bar"/>
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  250. flow SamWhited, I'd expect there to be a rule that a attribute is unique within an element
  251. flow One can generalize your question if <element foo='bar' foo='baz'/> is allowed
  252. SamWhited Maybe. The XML spec treats all kinds of attributes differently. It's very confusing.
  253. Link Mauve flow, xmlns isn’t an attribute though, not in XML 1.0 + Namespaces.
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  256. Zash I'd go with "Wait, that's illegal"
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  260. SamWhited The reason I'm questioning myself is that I found some tests in an xml library that seem to deliberately do this, and looking through the spec I can't find anywhere that it says that it's illegal (but again, huge spec). I *assumed* it was, now I'm not sure.
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  262. Zash > Received invalid XML (duplicate attribute) The parser has spoken.
  263. flow Link Mauve, care to elaborate?
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  265. SamWhited Zash: unfortunately the other parser (admittedly, one I don't trust at all) seems to be deliberately checking that this is okay. The parsers are arguing :)
  266. Zash https://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-xml-20081126/#uniqattspec
  267. Zash Can't tell if this is the requirements for XML or for XML Schema tho
  268. Zash > An attribute name MUST NOT appear more than once in the same start-tag or empty-element tag.
  269. Zash That one seems clear enough tho
  270. flow given that all parsers I know about return at most a single value for an attribute, i think this applies to XML
  271. SamWhited oh cool, thanks, that's what I was hoping for, thanks
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  342. arne Hi, this Tech Page could be improved I thing when using xep-0368 with nginx only
  343. arne https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Tech_pages/XEP-0368#nginx
  344. arne When I use the settings described port 5222 doesnt work anymore. So I just added 5222 in the upstream
  345. jonas’ arne, you can get a wiki account to fix it yourself if you want to :)
  346. arne Alright jonas' I'll do 😀
  347. arne If it's really right what I say?
  348. Ge0rG arne: I'm not sure it's right.
  349. arne If it's really right what I mean?
  350. Ge0rG arne: 5222 is STARTTLS, not direct TLS, so it doesn't have ALPN
  351. Ge0rG arne: normally nginx shouldn't listen on 5222
  352. jonas’ pinging moparisthebest
  353. jonas’ I think they maintain that page effectively
  354. arne mh, so how to support 5222 then? just by using sslh?
  355. arne strange think, it does work for me now
  356. jonas’ arne, to clarify, by 5222 you actually mean xmpp-client, right?
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  358. arne yes actually
  359. moparisthebest arne: the example nginx config there doesn't mention 5222
  360. Ge0rG arne: just let 5222 be managed by your xmpp server?
  361. arne I did, but it didn't connect then, when using nginx for xmpp over https
  362. jonas’ moparisthebest, the config does claim to put 443 into _xmpp-client (note the absent `s`) too, though, which confuses me and doesn’t seem to work
  363. moparisthebest sslh will muliplex 5222/regular XMPP, nginx will not
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  365. arne so I need to use sslh if I want 5223, 443 and 5222 working?
  366. jonas’ arne, no
  367. moparisthebest The example srv records work for that sslh config but not that nginx config
  368. jonas’ but you need sslh if you want to have 443 in _xmpp-client
  369. moparisthebest Guess it should say that...
  370. arne yes the dns setup is for sslh.
  371. moparisthebest arne: simply don't set the xmpp-client srv record at 443
  372. moparisthebest Leave the xmpps one
  373. arne alright, will try this. Thanks!
  374. moparisthebest arne: but name and shame the bad client that refused to fall back to 5222 like it should :)
  375. jonas’ moparisthebest, observe.jabber.network complained :)
  376. jonas’ (like it should)
  377. moparisthebest Oh I agree complaints are in order, some clients stop falling back prematurely though, which is wrong
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  384. Arne MH, still the problem with 5222
  385. Arne but with conversations
  386. Arne but with conversations and also with oberserve.jabber tool
  387. Arne but with conversations and also with oberserve.jabber tool. oh wait frogot that DNS settings need some time..
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  389. arne nevertheless looks like conversations doens't fall back to 5222 when I block the rest...
  390. moparisthebest Conversations does
  391. moparisthebest Unless it's been broken very recently
  392. arne But I only had port 5222 open nothing else
  393. jonas’ arne, maybe give it a while, your DNS records had a TTL of a day...
  394. jonas’ may take a while to age out
  395. arne Alright, I stop spaming 🙂
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  426. Ge0rG DNS: 72 hours is a sane default for something you can't change retroactively HTTP: our WordPress is rendering each request to / individually, using a dozen database requests, just in case!
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  428. Zash Hey I have my DNS in a database and my website is statically generated!
  429. Ge0rG Zash: sounds like you need DoH then
  430. jonas’ Ge0rG, ECHAN?
  431. jonas’ I think we don’t have a wordpress.
  432. Ge0rG jonas’: well, the whole discussion probably belonged to jdev
  433. Ge0rG Maybe operators
  434. jonas’ Ge0rG, is that an attempt to pull an "But they’re doing it wrong too!!kk" to save yourself? ;)
  435. lovetox i think the red elements in the new dark layout of the XEPs is barely readable
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  437. Ge0rG jonas’: no, it was a general remark about the tradeoffs at different protocol layers. I would never deploy WordPress myself, and would probably exit from projects that do
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  439. jonas’ lovetox, PRs welcome!
  440. Alex Reminder, we have our annual member meeting in ~30 minutes to approve voting results
  441. jonas’ thanks Alex
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  445. Ge0rG Can we just refuse to leave the Council MUC and involve SCOTUS to contest the results?
  446. SamWhited Ge0rG: only if you have a crack legal team that involves too much hair dye and the ghost of Hugo Chavez
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  466. Alex Ge0rG, 🤣 🤣
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  469. Ge0rG It's time, isn't it?
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  472. Alex ya, its prime time
  473. jonas’ \o/
  474. Ge0rG I'm not curious at all
  475. Alex bangs the gavel
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  477. Alex here is our Agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-11-24
  478. jonas’ https://i.imgur.com/XAtCCiN.gif
  479. Alex 1) Call for Quorum
  480. Alex as you can see 36 members voted via proxy, so we have a quorum
  481. Alex 2) Items Subject to a Vote
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  483. Alex Board and Council elections, you can see the applicants here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2020
  484. Alex 3) Opportunity for XSF members to Vote in the Meeting
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  486. Alex anyone here who has not voted yet and wants to do so now?
  487. Alex memberbot is sill online to accepts votes
  488. Alex 3 ...
  489. Alex 2 ...
  490. Alex 1 ...
  491. Alex nobody wants to vote in the meeting
  492. Alex so I will close the voting and will fetch the results
  493. Alex let me work on the results, will be back shortly
  494. jonas’ good luck
  495. SamWhited Likewise
  496. jonas’ resists to make any jokes about stopping the count or mail-in ballots.
  497. Link Mauve :D
  498. guus.der.kinderen we all have the "FAKE ELECTIONS! I WON!" lines ready to be used, right?
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  500. Daniel Still too soon probably...
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  504. jonas’ Daniel, not sure if "too soon" because there are no results yet or "too soon" because Nov 3rd isn’t that much in the past
  505. Link Mauve I demand a recount!
  506. SamWhited It really is, I'm torn between smiling and horror :) once Georgia's through its runoffs in January maybe I'll lighten up a bit
  507. jonas’ SamWhited, how about a creepy horror movie girl grin?
  508. guus.der.kinderen I recall that recounts cost the requestee something along the line of a few million USD? I'm thinking that Alex is willing to accomodate you, Link Mauve...
  509. SamWhited jonas’: yah, that's been me for the last couple of years pretty much constantly
  510. jonas’ guus.der.kinderen, we’ll have a recount and we’ll make New Vector pay for it!!k
  511. SamWhited guus.der.kinderen: it depends, in Georgia the tax payers pay for it if it's within a certain margin, so I guess we'll have to deduct it from our membership dues
  512. Ge0rG jonas’: make the Council room invite only!
  513. jonas’ Ge0rG, I’d rather accidentally close s2s connections
  514. jonas’ repeatedly accidentally
  515. jonas’ otherwise it’s too obvious!
  516. Ge0rG jonas’: during the election, not afterwards
  517. jonas’ now you lost me
  518. Alex okay, I am back
  519. Ge0rG jonas’: stop counting late votes by closing s2s to memberbot
  520. jonas’ welcome back Alex. nevermind the backlog :)
  521. guus.der.kinderen apologies for the backlog.
  522. Alex 4) Announcement of Voting Results
  523. Alex When you reload the page at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-11-24 you can see the results
  524. jonas’ I know that gang
  525. Alex you can order by headers on the Wiki tables
  526. SamWhited Congrats all
  527. jonas’ congratulations all, specially MattJ for 0 No votes.
  528. Alex new board will be: Matthew Wild Dave Cridland Arc Riley Severino Ferrer Ralph Meijer
  529. Ge0rG Congratulations!
  530. Link Mauve Congrats everyone!
  531. Alex Top 5 on council are: Daniel Gultsch Jonas Schäfer Georg Lukas Kim Alvefur Dave Cridland
  532. Alex very close election again
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  535. Daniel > congratulations all, specially MattJ for 0 No votes. +1
  536. Alex congrats everyone, and thanks for all applicants for applying
  537. jonas’ Ge0rG, Daniel, Zash, dwd, I assume tomorrow the usual time works? larma, in case dwd decides to forfeit his seat in Council in favour of Board, it’d be good to have you there, too (16:00Z)
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  539. Alex 5) Any other Business?
  540. jonas’ yes
  541. Daniel Oh
  542. jonas’ what do we need to do in order to invite a non-XSF-Member to the Dinner? Do we need a formal vote for that?
  543. Daniel What dinner?
  544. jonas’ (i mean, it obviously is irrelevant for the upcoming year anyway)
  545. Link Mauve Could the dinner even happen this year?
  546. Link Mauve .
  547. jonas’ but I wanted to put the thought out as I know of someone who we should definitely invite if and when we can.
  548. jonas’ if nobody knows off the top of their heads, I’ll bring this up to board+1 and that’s ok.
  549. dwd Broadly, board decides who comes, and whether they pay.
  550. Daniel I think in the past non members have been invited by the sponsor
  551. jonas’ dwd, ITYM Boardly.
  552. guus.der.kinderen I do not think that in invitation is required?
  553. jonas’ guus.der.kinderen, invitation as in "paid for"
  554. jonas’ anyway, I’ll bring it up with board then, thanks
  555. jonas’ no further AOB from me
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  557. Alex 6) Formal Adjournment
  558. Alex I motion that we adjourn
  559. SamWhited Seconded
  560. guus.der.kinderen Seconded
  561. Alex bangs the gavel
  562. guus.der.kinderen Thanks Alex!
  563. dwd We used to have +1's, but board decided that was just being used to invite anyone who might want to come. But maybe that was better anyway.
  564. SamWhited Thanks Alex; great job, as always :)
  565. Alex thanks everyone 👍
  566. Zash Thanks Alex
  567. dwd Depends if we have sufficient budget, really.
  568. dwd Thanks Alex!
  569. Alex we can always try to find more sponsors
  570. Alex if its only 1 person it should be easy
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  573. Link Mauve Zash, your note change made the Disclaimer of Warranty unreadable in every XEP.
  574. Link Mauve Maybe change its background too.
  575. Zash Oh no
  576. Link Mauve Yeah, that’s .info
  577. jonas’ Oh no
  578. Zash Why .box, why?
  579. MattJ Congratulations all, and welcome back arc :)
  580. jonas’ sorry
  581. jonas’ Zash, feel free to make it something more sane in the XSL
  582. jonas’ I’d welcome that
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  608. arc *waves*
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  610. jonas’ Ge0rG, FYI, I assigned a new namespace to XEP-0445 during acceptance
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  612. jonas’ I hope I didn’t mess that up, please check and PR otherwise
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  619. Ge0rG jonas’: I'll check tomorrow. I hoped to be able to use the same namespace for both.
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  661. emus Congratulations to all elected ones! I didnt realised there was a no-vote option and I am a bit shocked how many seem to make use of that. 🤔
  662. emus Alex: Would you mind to write a little announcement? I can place it in the newsletter. I think it is good to show that we have those kind of processes in the XSF.
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  693. lskdjf emus, there is indeed no "No" option. People have up to 5 votes. As far as I see, candidates that didn't get one of those are counted as "No", even though you did not actually vote against them. The meeting minutes are actually somewhat misleading in that sense. Perhaps it would make sense to clarify them?
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