XSF Discussion - 2020-11-25

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  111. emus

    lskdjf: thanks I see

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  123. Alex

    In the Agenda I just use the template which we used forever. We can get rid of the NO column for board and council votes

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  125. Alex

    emus: ya, we can add a section to the newsletter, I can work on it

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  170. emus

    Alex: ok cool

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  172. emus

    Alex: yes, as this seemingly just counts how much havent placed a vote for them I think its misleading. Id rather say how many peoplr voted, and then place the table with number of votes per person.

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  175. Daniel

    The label might be slightly misleading but I do find that information useful

  176. Daniel

    Even though you can of course derive it by subtracting the yeses from the total

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  179. Daniel

    Maybe not necessarily for the news letter tho (I just realized that you were probably talking about that)

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  186. emus

    Daniel: I was talking about the wiki page. But I dont see the sense of placing the no if the only user action is to place a vote for people. In general election also place only who voted for one, not how many did not vote for him. (right?)

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  194. jonas’

    emus, I think you need at least half of the votes in addition to being in the top 5

  195. jonas’

    so listing the No column also makes it clear whether that criterium is fulfilled or not

  196. jonas’

    > Third, the individuals elected shall be those receiving the highest percentage of votes cast, up to the limit set by the Members and with the proviso that no individual receiving less than a majority of votes cast shall be elected.

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  199. jonas’


  200. jonas’

    oh my

  201. larma

    The lack of possibility to vote yes/no/absent explicitly actually can have real world consequences. Should we ever end up with significantly more candidates than number of votes you have, many will not make the 50% limit.

  202. dwd

    larma, That's be a lovely problem to have, mind.

  203. jonas’

    I’m also fairly certain that we’re doing it wrong

  204. jonas’

    reading Section 3.13

  205. jonas’

    Section 3.13 Voting Procedure for Election of Board and Council. Election of individuals to serve on the Board of Directors and on the XMPP Council shall proceed as follows. First, the number of individuals to serve on each body shall be limited beforehand by the Members as specified in Section 4.4 and Section 8.1 of these Bylaws for the Board and Council, respectively. Second, the Members shall vote on the candidates standing for election in accordance with Section 3.9 of these Bylaws. Third, the individuals elected shall be those receiving the highest percentage of votes cast, up to the limit set by the Members and with the proviso that no individual receiving less than a majority of votes cast shall be elected. Fourth, in the case of a tie for the final remaining position, the final individual shall be chosen in accordance with the procedures defined in “RFC 3797: Publicly Verifiable Nominations Committee (NomCom) Random Selection” published by the Internet Engineering Task Force.

  206. jonas’

    nothing in here says that we can only cast N (= number of seats) votes

  207. Ge0rG

    The vote was rigged!

  208. jonas’

    Section 3.9 just says that each member gets a single vote: > Section 3.9 Voting. Each current Member of the Corporation (other than Emeritus Members) shall be entitled to one (1) vote on each matter submitted to a vote at a meeting of the Members, except as may otherwise be provided in the General Corporation Law of the State of Delaware.

  209. jonas’

    that was a rabbit hole I did not want to discover

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  212. emus

    > emus, I think you need at least half of the votes in addition to being in the top 5 > so listing the No column also makes it clear whether that criterium is fulfilled or not But dont you need the total number of person voted for this criterium?

  213. jonas’

    emus, that is Yes + No

  214. emus


  215. emus

    Okay. but then I would place the total number directlt, because it looks like "No" is an active choice

  216. jonas’


  217. emus

    Okay. but then I would place the total number directly, because it looks like "No" is an active choice

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  242. dwd

    emus, FWIW, it used to be an active choice - the memberbot used to just ask yes/no for each candidate, so you could (and people did) vote for 4, or 6, people. I'm happy to look into changing the memberbot back to doing that, though obviously I'd raise this with Board and Alex (as Secretary) first.

  243. jonas’

    dwd, from my reading of the Bylaws, the previous mode you describe is the one which matches the bylaws

  244. jonas’

    while the current mode does not

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  247. emus

    I understand one have maximum 5 vote options. Sure, one might not vote for everyone, but that is an abstention not a "No"-vote or vote against one (as I first interpreted the table)

  248. jonas’

    emus, I do not understand that from the Bylaws

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  251. dwd

    emus, Well, as jonas’ says, there's no "maximum number of votes" mentioned in the bylaws.

  252. jonas’

    recount! recount!

  253. emus

    But I thought board and council are limited to 5 persons each

  254. jonas’


  255. jonas’

    but the voting scheme still says you vote yes/no (abstain?) for each candidate

  256. jonas’

    and then the five with the highest ratio of yes votes get the seats

  257. Daniel

    > emus, FWIW, it used to be an active choice - the memberbot used to just ask yes/no for each candidate, so you could (and people did) vote for 4, or 6, people. I'm happy to look into changing the memberbot back to doing that, though obviously I'd raise this with Board and Alex (as Secretary) first. It may match the bylaws but I find that odd. If anything I'd prefer switching to ranked choice or something

  258. jonas’

    which is different from "you select 5 candidates which counts +1 for each and the five with the highest number of +1 get the seats"

  259. dwd

    emus, Sure. But - arguably - that could be found by everyone voting uniformly for every candidate and then randomly selecting via RFC 3797.

  260. jonas’

    Daniel, agreed, ranked choice would be better than either system (but also much more complex to evaluate)

  261. emus


  262. jonas’

    nevertheless: I think we do have a massive legal issue if our voting procedure diverges from what the Bylaws say

  263. emus

    Maybe Im just a bit confused

  264. emus

    > nevertheless: I think we do have a massive legal issue if our voting procedure diverges from what the Bylaws say I guess this should be discussed first

  265. jonas’

    by whom?

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  268. jonas’

    the possibly not-legally-elected board? :-

  269. jonas’

    the possibly not-legally-elected board? :-)

  270. emus


  271. Daniel

    Because if I _could_ vote +1 for each I either have to make an active choice not to vote someone in or just give anyone a +1. On the other hand if I only have 5 votes in total its just a 'I prefer x over z' instead of an 'I hate x'

  272. emus


  273. jonas’

    Daniel, that’d give some higher weight to the people who *do* make an active choice instead of just selecting the first five people memberbot comes up with

  274. dwd

    jonas’, Given the Board couldn't have changed given a yes/no vote, it's Council are are potentially not legit, but still. :-)

  275. jonas’

    dwd, true

  276. Daniel

    > Daniel, that’d give some higher weight to the people who *do* make an active choice instead of just selecting the first five people memberbot comes up with Well that's just an argument for making it random

  277. jonas’

    dwd, though the bylaw voting scheme does encourage no votes more than the current one

  278. dwd

    In any event, as I say I'm happy to raise this at Board.

  279. jonas’

    Daniel, it is random already :)

  280. emus

    jonas’: one can randomise the listing^^

  281. jonas’

    dwd, good :)

  282. jonas’

    emus, see above :)

  283. emus


  284. dwd

    emus, The listing *is* randomized already.

  285. jonas’

    dwd, will you be part of council?

  286. emus

    yep good

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  296. dwd

    jonas’, Seems so. I was expecting to be voted off, actually, but I'm happy I've not been. We'll need someone else to act as Liaision to Board though, otherwise I'll have conflicts in meetingts, but ordinarily that's the Council Chair anyway, and I'm hoping you'll continue that.

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  299. jonas’

    dwd, ok

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  306. Alex

    emus: in meetings all day, will read here later when I am available

  307. emus


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  349. SamWhited

    oh neat. So if I understood that, the system we're supposed to have where you could just vote for everybody is called 'approval voting'. It's my favorite voting system and I always wondered why we modified it and limited you to 5 votes

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  356. SamWhited

    Although I also thought we used a modified ranked choice too and that the order mattered just because memberbot seems to suggest it does, but I guess thinking back obviously that wasn't true because the results didn't show that ever. Not sure why I never realized that.

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  379. Guus

    Am I reading https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0124.html#terminate correct like this? "When a client sends 'terminate', the server should not deliver any stanzas any longer"

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  414. flow

    FWIW "approval voting" and "condorcet voting" would be my favorites when it comes to voting for council and board (with a slight tendency towards condorcet)

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  416. flow

    Guus, good question, I am not that much into BOSH, but I somehow would expect BOSH's 'terminate' to mimic </stream>, so it would be a unidirectional close

  417. flow

    Guus, in any way, this could probably be clarified in xep124

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  419. Guus

    flow that was kind of my thinking (eg, I expected the server to be able to deliver a pending message or echo presence unavailalble), but that's not how I read this.

  420. SamWhited

    TIL: condorcet voting, this sounds neat (if a bit complicated to understand and implement compared to approval voting which seems pretty intuitive)

  421. Link Mauve

    Guus, also note that a client couldn’t assume that it won’t receive stanzas anymore, latency and all.

  422. flow

    SamWhited, ideally you can use a condorcet voting library instead of impl the whole thing. Understanding is a bit different, approval voting is far easier to understand. But OTOH condorcet voting is already used in tech communities (e.g. Debian, Jenkins)

  423. flow

    the stackexchange network also does condorcet voting (if I am not mistaken)

  424. SamWhited

    I didn't mean implement in terms of memberbot, I just meant "making the whole thing work and understood and contingencies for ties within an organization", sorry

  425. flow

    I see

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  427. SamWhited

    Maybe it doesn't matter since what we have now is effectively approval voting but with ties already taken care of. Probably no need to change what isn't broken.

  428. SamWhited

    Interesting to think about though

  429. Kev

    Ties aren't taken care of, are they?

  430. Kev

    Or not by the voting mechanism itself, at least.

  431. SamWhited

    more-than-5-way-ties, I mean. If we have a tie in the top 5 it doesn't matter, but with regular approval voting if there are 6 candidates for 5 positions and all voters approve of all candidates you have to figure out what to do

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  434. SamWhited

    Actually, no, you're right, doesn't matter, we could still have a tie for 5th place, for example. Ignore me.

  435. SamWhited

    So we have approval voting with a weird restriction that I still don't fully understand :)

  436. Alex

    I updated our Agenda page and removed the No votes which memberbot is counting by default. Please take a look here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-11-24

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  439. Neustradamus

    SamWhited: My tickets has here :) - https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/created_by/Neustradamus + This ticket here but not solved: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/966

  440. Neustradamus

    SamWhited: My tickets are here :) - https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/created_by/Neustradamus + This ticket here but not solved: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/966

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  442. SamWhited

    Neustradamus: I don't have anything to do with that and can't help, sorry.

  443. SamWhited

    Also, reading the question, that issue *was* solved. The editors tried to explain how it's not a problem it looks like.

  444. Alex

    About the voting process. When there are any concerns then I would ask you to bring it to the member list for dicsussion. We are using the process as is for over a decade now. Which does not mean that there are still areas where we can learn, adjust and improve.

  445. SamWhited

    Alex: voting process seems fine, I don't think anyone is seriously talking about wanting to change it (although I can't speak for everyone of course). Just a fun discussion about how different voting systems would work :)

  446. Neustradamus

    SamWhited: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/421?

  447. Zash

    "Proponents of Condorcet can't decide on anything anyways" :P

  448. SamWhited

    Neustradamus: I don't understand what you're asking or what you want me to do. I am not an editor.

  449. Neustradamus

    SamWhited: it is linked to your ticket here: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/992 :)

  450. SamWhited

    I know. I still don't understand what you're asking or what you want me to do.

  451. Alex

    SamWhited: just wanna make sure that all voices are heard. And when there are concerns that we discuss them, and not just silently ignore 😉

  452. SamWhited

    Indeed; thanks for doing that, and for continuing to do the elections and meetings and what not!

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  535. edw4rd

    hey guys

  536. Andrzej has joined

  537. edw4rd

    is ther anyone here ?

  538. edw4rd

    i need help

  539. edw4rd

    to add someone n this site

  540. edw4rd

    but idk how

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