XSF Discussion - 2020-11-25

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  111. emus lskdjf: thanks I see
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  123. Alex In the Agenda I just use the template which we used forever. We can get rid of the NO column for board and council votes
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  125. Alex emus: ya, we can add a section to the newsletter, I can work on it
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  170. emus Alex: ok cool
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  172. emus Alex: yes, as this seemingly just counts how much havent placed a vote for them I think its misleading. Id rather say how many peoplr voted, and then place the table with number of votes per person.
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  175. Daniel The label might be slightly misleading but I do find that information useful
  176. Daniel Even though you can of course derive it by subtracting the yeses from the total
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  179. Daniel Maybe not necessarily for the news letter tho (I just realized that you were probably talking about that)
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  186. emus Daniel: I was talking about the wiki page. But I dont see the sense of placing the no if the only user action is to place a vote for people. In general election also place only who voted for one, not how many did not vote for him. (right?)
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  194. jonas’ emus, I think you need at least half of the votes in addition to being in the top 5
  195. jonas’ so listing the No column also makes it clear whether that criterium is fulfilled or not
  196. jonas’ > Third, the individuals elected shall be those receiving the highest percentage of votes cast, up to the limit set by the Members and with the proviso that no individual receiving less than a majority of votes cast shall be elected.
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  199. jonas’ though....
  200. jonas’ oh my
  201. larma The lack of possibility to vote yes/no/absent explicitly actually can have real world consequences. Should we ever end up with significantly more candidates than number of votes you have, many will not make the 50% limit.
  202. dwd larma, That's be a lovely problem to have, mind.
  203. jonas’ I’m also fairly certain that we’re doing it wrong
  204. jonas’ reading Section 3.13
  205. jonas’ Section 3.13 Voting Procedure for Election of Board and Council. Election of individuals to serve on the Board of Directors and on the XMPP Council shall proceed as follows. First, the number of individuals to serve on each body shall be limited beforehand by the Members as specified in Section 4.4 and Section 8.1 of these Bylaws for the Board and Council, respectively. Second, the Members shall vote on the candidates standing for election in accordance with Section 3.9 of these Bylaws. Third, the individuals elected shall be those receiving the highest percentage of votes cast, up to the limit set by the Members and with the proviso that no individual receiving less than a majority of votes cast shall be elected. Fourth, in the case of a tie for the final remaining position, the final individual shall be chosen in accordance with the procedures defined in “RFC 3797: Publicly Verifiable Nominations Committee (NomCom) Random Selection” published by the Internet Engineering Task Force.
  206. jonas’ nothing in here says that we can only cast N (= number of seats) votes
  207. Ge0rG The vote was rigged!
  208. jonas’ Section 3.9 just says that each member gets a single vote: > Section 3.9 Voting. Each current Member of the Corporation (other than Emeritus Members) shall be entitled to one (1) vote on each matter submitted to a vote at a meeting of the Members, except as may otherwise be provided in the General Corporation Law of the State of Delaware.
  209. jonas’ that was a rabbit hole I did not want to discover
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  212. emus > emus, I think you need at least half of the votes in addition to being in the top 5 > so listing the No column also makes it clear whether that criterium is fulfilled or not But dont you need the total number of person voted for this criterium?
  213. jonas’ emus, that is Yes + No
  214. emus 😄
  215. emus Okay. but then I would place the total number directlt, because it looks like "No" is an active choice
  216. jonas’ true
  217. emus Okay. but then I would place the total number directly, because it looks like "No" is an active choice
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  242. dwd emus, FWIW, it used to be an active choice - the memberbot used to just ask yes/no for each candidate, so you could (and people did) vote for 4, or 6, people. I'm happy to look into changing the memberbot back to doing that, though obviously I'd raise this with Board and Alex (as Secretary) first.
  243. jonas’ dwd, from my reading of the Bylaws, the previous mode you describe is the one which matches the bylaws
  244. jonas’ while the current mode does not
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  247. emus I understand one have maximum 5 vote options. Sure, one might not vote for everyone, but that is an abstention not a "No"-vote or vote against one (as I first interpreted the table)
  248. jonas’ emus, I do not understand that from the Bylaws
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  251. dwd emus, Well, as jonas’ says, there's no "maximum number of votes" mentioned in the bylaws.
  252. jonas’ recount! recount!
  253. emus But I thought board and council are limited to 5 persons each
  254. jonas’ yes
  255. jonas’ but the voting scheme still says you vote yes/no (abstain?) for each candidate
  256. jonas’ and then the five with the highest ratio of yes votes get the seats
  257. Daniel > emus, FWIW, it used to be an active choice - the memberbot used to just ask yes/no for each candidate, so you could (and people did) vote for 4, or 6, people. I'm happy to look into changing the memberbot back to doing that, though obviously I'd raise this with Board and Alex (as Secretary) first. It may match the bylaws but I find that odd. If anything I'd prefer switching to ranked choice or something
  258. jonas’ which is different from "you select 5 candidates which counts +1 for each and the five with the highest number of +1 get the seats"
  259. dwd emus, Sure. But - arguably - that could be found by everyone voting uniformly for every candidate and then randomly selecting via RFC 3797.
  260. jonas’ Daniel, agreed, ranked choice would be better than either system (but also much more complex to evaluate)
  261. emus ^^
  262. jonas’ nevertheless: I think we do have a massive legal issue if our voting procedure diverges from what the Bylaws say
  263. emus Maybe Im just a bit confused
  264. emus > nevertheless: I think we do have a massive legal issue if our voting procedure diverges from what the Bylaws say I guess this should be discussed first
  265. jonas’ by whom?
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  268. jonas’ the possibly not-legally-elected board? :-
  269. jonas’ the possibly not-legally-elected board? :-)
  270. emus 🤷‍♂️
  271. Daniel Because if I _could_ vote +1 for each I either have to make an active choice not to vote someone in or just give anyone a +1. On the other hand if I only have 5 votes in total its just a 'I prefer x over z' instead of an 'I hate x'
  272. emus Alex?
  273. jonas’ Daniel, that’d give some higher weight to the people who *do* make an active choice instead of just selecting the first five people memberbot comes up with
  274. dwd jonas’, Given the Board couldn't have changed given a yes/no vote, it's Council are are potentially not legit, but still. :-)
  275. jonas’ dwd, true
  276. Daniel > Daniel, that’d give some higher weight to the people who *do* make an active choice instead of just selecting the first five people memberbot comes up with Well that's just an argument for making it random
  277. jonas’ dwd, though the bylaw voting scheme does encourage no votes more than the current one
  278. dwd In any event, as I say I'm happy to raise this at Board.
  279. jonas’ Daniel, it is random already :)
  280. emus jonas’: one can randomise the listing^^
  281. jonas’ dwd, good :)
  282. jonas’ emus, see above :)
  283. emus ah
  284. dwd emus, The listing *is* randomized already.
  285. jonas’ dwd, will you be part of council?
  286. emus yep good
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  296. dwd jonas’, Seems so. I was expecting to be voted off, actually, but I'm happy I've not been. We'll need someone else to act as Liaision to Board though, otherwise I'll have conflicts in meetingts, but ordinarily that's the Council Chair anyway, and I'm hoping you'll continue that.
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  299. jonas’ dwd, ok
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  306. Alex emus: in meetings all day, will read here later when I am available
  307. emus sure
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  349. SamWhited oh neat. So if I understood that, the system we're supposed to have where you could just vote for everybody is called 'approval voting'. It's my favorite voting system and I always wondered why we modified it and limited you to 5 votes
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  356. SamWhited Although I also thought we used a modified ranked choice too and that the order mattered just because memberbot seems to suggest it does, but I guess thinking back obviously that wasn't true because the results didn't show that ever. Not sure why I never realized that.
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  379. Guus Am I reading https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0124.html#terminate correct like this? "When a client sends 'terminate', the server should not deliver any stanzas any longer"
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  414. flow FWIW "approval voting" and "condorcet voting" would be my favorites when it comes to voting for council and board (with a slight tendency towards condorcet)
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  416. flow Guus, good question, I am not that much into BOSH, but I somehow would expect BOSH's 'terminate' to mimic </stream>, so it would be a unidirectional close
  417. flow Guus, in any way, this could probably be clarified in xep124
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  419. Guus flow that was kind of my thinking (eg, I expected the server to be able to deliver a pending message or echo presence unavailalble), but that's not how I read this.
  420. SamWhited TIL: condorcet voting, this sounds neat (if a bit complicated to understand and implement compared to approval voting which seems pretty intuitive)
  421. Link Mauve Guus, also note that a client couldn’t assume that it won’t receive stanzas anymore, latency and all.
  422. flow SamWhited, ideally you can use a condorcet voting library instead of impl the whole thing. Understanding is a bit different, approval voting is far easier to understand. But OTOH condorcet voting is already used in tech communities (e.g. Debian, Jenkins)
  423. flow the stackexchange network also does condorcet voting (if I am not mistaken)
  424. SamWhited I didn't mean implement in terms of memberbot, I just meant "making the whole thing work and understood and contingencies for ties within an organization", sorry
  425. flow I see
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  427. SamWhited Maybe it doesn't matter since what we have now is effectively approval voting but with ties already taken care of. Probably no need to change what isn't broken.
  428. SamWhited Interesting to think about though
  429. Kev Ties aren't taken care of, are they?
  430. Kev Or not by the voting mechanism itself, at least.
  431. SamWhited more-than-5-way-ties, I mean. If we have a tie in the top 5 it doesn't matter, but with regular approval voting if there are 6 candidates for 5 positions and all voters approve of all candidates you have to figure out what to do
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  434. SamWhited Actually, no, you're right, doesn't matter, we could still have a tie for 5th place, for example. Ignore me.
  435. SamWhited So we have approval voting with a weird restriction that I still don't fully understand :)
  436. Alex I updated our Agenda page and removed the No votes which memberbot is counting by default. Please take a look here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-11-24
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  439. Neustradamus SamWhited: My tickets has here :) - https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/created_by/Neustradamus + This ticket here but not solved: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/966
  440. Neustradamus SamWhited: My tickets are here :) - https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/created_by/Neustradamus + This ticket here but not solved: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/966
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  442. SamWhited Neustradamus: I don't have anything to do with that and can't help, sorry.
  443. SamWhited Also, reading the question, that issue *was* solved. The editors tried to explain how it's not a problem it looks like.
  444. Alex About the voting process. When there are any concerns then I would ask you to bring it to the member list for dicsussion. We are using the process as is for over a decade now. Which does not mean that there are still areas where we can learn, adjust and improve.
  445. SamWhited Alex: voting process seems fine, I don't think anyone is seriously talking about wanting to change it (although I can't speak for everyone of course). Just a fun discussion about how different voting systems would work :)
  446. Neustradamus SamWhited: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/421?
  447. Zash "Proponents of Condorcet can't decide on anything anyways" :P
  448. SamWhited Neustradamus: I don't understand what you're asking or what you want me to do. I am not an editor.
  449. Neustradamus SamWhited: it is linked to your ticket here: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues/992 :)
  450. SamWhited I know. I still don't understand what you're asking or what you want me to do.
  451. Alex SamWhited: just wanna make sure that all voices are heard. And when there are concerns that we discuss them, and not just silently ignore 😉
  452. SamWhited Indeed; thanks for doing that, and for continuing to do the elections and meetings and what not!
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  535. edw4rd hey guys
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  537. edw4rd is ther anyone here ?
  538. edw4rd i need help
  539. edw4rd to add someone n this site
  540. edw4rd but idk how
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