XSF Discussion - 2020-12-01


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  258. jonas’ dwd, spreadsheet of doom?
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  279. dwd jonas’, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-IBY4NhXbdZ_TqCCZkXrMgqq63yytaxXqJKhh47J1vI/edit?usp=sharing - but poke it about to see if I've cleared the old data off it correctly first. I think I have, but ENOQA.
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  288. jonas’ dwd, I need your approval for +w, I sent a request
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  297. jonas’ mathieui> whoops I forgot to look at pending PRs before submitting my MIX patches, but it looks like there’s no overlap at least with which of the current PRs do you see a conflict?
  298. mathieui jonas’, no conflict, but I saw a few MIX-related ones after looking
  299. jonas’ dwd, nevermind, I forked it
  300. jonas’ mathieui, which ones?
  301. dwd jonas’, Oh, sorry, didn't think of that.
  302. mathieui jonas’, only #856 actually
  303. jonas’ right, that one’s not gonna happen soon anyway
  304. mathieui yup
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  306. mathieui there are deeper changes in other ones that I didn’t want to get into, e.g. reusing 0424 in 0407 section 4 instead of providing an ad-hoc mechanism+namespace
  307. jonas’ Ge0rG, can you obtain approval by the author of '401 for: https://gitlab.com/xsf/xeps/-/merge_requests/33
  308. jonas’ cc @ marc
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  318. marc jonas’: okay for me if that's the MR Ge0rG was talking about last time
  319. jonas’ marc, please check if it really is that PR :)
  320. marc jonas’: yep, later. I'm on mobile atm
  321. jonas’ marc, thank you
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  338. Ge0rG it's the one splitting out IBR with token from 0401. I'm not so sure any more about the title, maybe I overdid it a bit
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  361. Zash Re https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1008 Does anyone actually enforce or even handle that?
  362. SamWhited I do in my implementation (just by virtue of using a uint16 which in Go wraps around if you overflow it)
  363. SamWhited I can't imagine it's likely to be something that's hit often (or ever) though.
  364. Zash Yeah, it goes into "don't use IBB for files that large" territory
  365. Zash Given a maximum block size of 65535 that's 4 GB. So, plz don't.
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  367. SamWhited I did look around and found several other implementations that explicitly handled it (Smack is the only one I remember looking at now though, but I think there were some of the python ones too). They used uint16
  368. Zash I just looked at two and saw no trace of any overflow handling
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  370. Zash this one seems to do stuff tho
  371. moparisthebest https://i.imgflip.com/4oiu0k.jpg
  372. SamWhited yah, maybe it wasn't Smack, I don't see it now
  373. mathieui it is wrapped around in slixmpp afaik
  374. SamWhited ah no, here it is: https://github.com/igniterealtime/Smack/blob/master/smack-extensions/src/main/java/org/jivesoftware/smackx/bytestreams/ibb/InBandBytestreamSession.java#L759
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  377. Zash Is that off-by-one?
  378. SamWhited And here it is for aioxmpp: https://github.com/horazont/aioxmpp/blob/devel/aioxmpp/ibb/service.py#L195-L196
  379. SamWhited Yah, that looks off by 1 to me
  380. Zash Haven't found anything in nbxmpp and Swiften tho
  381. Zash Nobody so far seems to have accidentally read it as a the positive subset of a signed integer, which I think is a thing somewhere else.
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  391. flow Zash, good catch
  392. Zash np
  393. SamWhited Yah, good eye; this is why I never use weird ternary constructs, I would never have noticed it in that mess of symbols and what not
  394. flow I've just looked at the origin of this: it was introduced by henning in 2010
  395. flow so it's a 10 year old bug you discovered \o/
  396. Zash :D
  397. SamWhited Nice, Zash gets all the points
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  399. flow of course i wonder if this ever caused an troubles :) but that doesn't mean that this shouldn't get fixed
  400. SamWhited Heh, yah, I doubt it
  401. mathieui Zash, oh, slixmpp is also off by one as well I guess
  402. SamWhited FWIW, java does integer wraparound too IIRC, so that could probably just be an "unsigned short" or whatever it would be called in java land
  403. SamWhited Nice; multiple off by ones fixed today! As they say, the three hard problems in computer science are naming things and off by one errors
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  405. mathieui tricked by a modulo
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  408. moparisthebest SamWhited, java doesn't have unsigned anything
  409. SamWhited oh, nevermind then. Been a while since I did any Java
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  414. Zash SamWhited: nice chain of events you set in motion here :)
  415. SamWhited Yah that worked out nicely; I thought it was just going to clarify a typo fix, good teamwork turning it into bugfixes
  416. mathieui I just hope nobody ran into that, as it would reject stanzas with the 65535 sequence number
  417. flow SamWhited, the problem is that there is no uint16_t in java land
  418. SamWhited I can't imagine anyone actually sends multi-gig files (assuming a reasonable blocksize) and doesn't get bored and cancel or have some other hickup
  419. SamWhited But who knows
  420. mathieui The best file transport!
  421. SamWhited I'm sure one crazy person somewhere has done it
  422. mathieui Doing 4k livestreams over IBB
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  425. Zash Absolute madlad
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  430. SamWhited Tangentially related: has anyone ever experimented with different blocksizes to see what a good default is? I just kind of guessed that ~2k was probably a good default, but I really have no idea
  431. Zash For IBB? 🤷
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  434. moparisthebest somewhat related to stanza size limits I reckon
  435. Zash I imagine there's some sweet spot wrt filesystem block sizes, tcp/ip/ethernet packet sizes etc
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  437. SamWhited I assumed ethernet MUT would be smaller than TCP and would be too small to actually fit a stanza in (without drastically increasing the overhead just from the XML), but maybe wifi would be a better thing to lookup
  438. SamWhited MTU, even
  439. Zash 4k block gets you a ~5.5k message stanza, that's about half of the 10k minimum stanza size limit. should be safe, even with longer jids.
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  442. Zash a JID can be up to 3k in theory...
  443. SamWhited That sounds good to me, maybe I'll up mine which I think was at 2k
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  446. moparisthebest that would be a case of "some people get what they deserve" (re: 3k JIDs)
  447. Zash dns limits you to 255 or something for the hostpart, so more like 1023@255/1023
  448. SamWhited Could be a hostname though
  449. SamWhited No idea if there are limits there
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  453. Zash A message stanza with 2x 1023@255/1023, 2x UUID and 4k IBB block turns into 12.5k
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  457. Zash heh, with 2k block it looks like 9.8k
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  462. Zash so if you're absolutely want to stay clear of the strictest stanza size limits then 2k blocks would do.
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  465. SamWhited meh, if you have a 3k JID you can manually set the block size, that's definitely not a thing I'm interested in optimizing for
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  467. Zash Would be cool to have real network troughput stats ;)
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  469. marc jonas’, +1 for the PR from Ge0rG
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  473. jonas’ marc: thabks
  474. jonas’ marc: thanks
  475. jonas’ Path-MTU!
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  478. Zash Mmmmmmm. I've observed MUC participants in loops where they request the vcard of someone, then get their connection closed because the avatar was larger than the stanza size limit
  479. Zash Much fun.
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  490. moparisthebest big avatar crashes MUC's you say ? >:)
  491. jonas’ khekhekhe
  492. jonas’ fun fact: you cannot kick MUCs off the s.j.n list that way (except the one with the evil avatar) because s.j.n shuffles the list of MUCs during each scan :)
  493. jonas’ (even if it caused a longer outage of the s2s connection or killed the c2s connection in a bad way or somesuch)
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  497. Zash Was there some point in advertising stanza size limits in stream-features or somesuch?
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  499. SamWhited That would be really nice; at the very least it would let clients show a rough max-message-size while you're typing.
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  504. dwd FWIW, I assumed that stanza sizes were reasonable huge these days. Like 64k would be an absolute minimum. Didn't we say 10M in RFC 6120?
  505. Kev 10k
  506. Zash 10k
  507. Zash Prosody ships with a default of 10M by default, ejabberd with 256k for c2s and 512k for s2s IIRC
  508. Zash Dunno about others
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  510. Zash Eh, default defaults ftw
  511. Guus I think Openfire does 2M.
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  514. Ge0rG So we need Path MTU Discovery! Will s2s be terminated on oversized stanzas? Is there an error sent to the originating node?
  515. dwd With bandwidth and RAM sizes these days, I'd think IBB at 10k blocksizes would be fine. That'll yield a 1ms choke on a 80Mbit link, so you could probably increase that by a factor of ten without worrying.
  516. Zash Ge0rG: yes. maybe, but probably no.
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  518. Zash Push harder for s2s-198
  519. Ge0rG dwd: not on german mobile "broadband"
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  521. Ge0rG Zash: won't help on stream errors
  522. Zash Why?
  523. dwd Ge0rG, So you don't want to much a PMTU discovery, you actually want a IBB blocksize negotiation.
  524. Zash You want PMTU discovery for vcards/avatars!
  525. SamWhited I think my implementation for blocksize "negotiation" was to just request the default, then cut it in half until they accept the transfer or it gets under some small minimum where we deam the XML encoding overhead is too high to justify bothering
  526. dwd Zash, But if you're on a slow link, do you even want the jumbo-avatar?
  527. Zash Why you want the multiple-choice 0084 allows
  528. Ge0rG dwd: how would you do that for the involved servers?
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  530. dwd Ge0rG, Hmmm, yes. But you probably want a path characteristics request, plus a stream feature for stanza limits. We talked of a path characteristic command for TLS a while back; one for stanza limits and 198 might be more useful.
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  532. Ge0rG dwd: all of the above, and a way to discover each hop on the way
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  615. Andrzej has left
  616. debacle has left