XSF Discussion - 2020-12-04


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  14. SamWhited November was when the announcement was sent out: https://web.archive.org/web/20021230183123/http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/ietf-announce/Current/msg21379.html
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  18. SamWhited Damn, you've nerd sniped me. It was before the drat anyways; here's a reference from Jan 2002: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/jdev/2002-January/069346.html
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  20. SamWhited Sounds like it might have been an IETF term and "Jabber" was just one candidate protocol to be the IETFs "XMPP"
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  24. SamWhited Oh no, definitely named within the Jabber community sometime before Jan 2002: https://web.archive.org/web/20020305041511/https://perl.jabber.org/logs/conference.jabber.org/foundation/2002-01-09.html
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  26. Zash IETF had the IMPP and CMP(?) things
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  29. Zash So that February draft is the one mentioned in that jded post as for archival purposes
  30. SamWhited > [13:32] <stpeter> ick, i hate XMPP :P
  31. SamWhited :o
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  108. Ge0rG Well, don't we all?
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  176. Zash Hahaha. There's a discussion about what to do about inactive projects in listings in that chat log.
  177. dwd Well, we should come to a conclusion on that topic in another decade or two.
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  179. Zash > [13:17] <Dave> Maybe we should have a "dead projects" section?
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  182. dwd (Not me, in case anyone's confused)
  183. Zash I'm confused
  184. Zash There can be only one Dave!
  185. dwd Zash, Sadly not true.
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  246. edhelas https://sodocumentation.net/xmpp/topic/3036/xmpp-addresses-aka--jids--jabber-identifiers- nice documentation
  247. edhelas I didn't found any PHP PRECIS libraries unfortunately
  248. SamWhited oh cool, they used my package as an example and I think used my graphs with some modifications, that makes me feel good
  249. SamWhited oh I see, this is taken from the old SO Documentation site before that was shut down, so definitely my graphs. Cool!
  250. Zash SO?
  251. jonas’ stackoverflow
  252. SamWhited So I guess that "they" didn't so much "use my graphs" as "I wrote that" :)
  253. jonas’ heh
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  281. flow hmm, CC BY-SA violation?
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  285. SamWhited It's got a link to contributors at the bottom (and we're both on there). Took me a while to find.
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  302. arc Happy Friday everyone
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  305. Zash ÄNTLIGEN
  306. ralphm bangs gavel
  307. ralphm 0. Welcome
  308. ralphm Hi! Who do we have, and what's on your mind?
  309. arc Present
  310. Zash What's this? Board meeting? On a Friday?
  311. ralphm Zash: new round, new changes
  312. ralphm Seve, dwd, MattJ
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  314. Seve Hello
  315. dwd Hiya.
  316. arc Dwd I think that is your turn to do the minutes this week
  317. ralphm It seems we're at:
  318. ralphm 1. Minute taker
  319. ralphm :-D
  320. dwd OK.
  321. ralphm 2. Appointment of Officers
  322. ralphm I sent out an e-mail to both Alex and Peter.
  323. ralphm Peter responded with "Yes, of course!", so I motion we re-appoint him has Treasurer for the 2020/2021 term.
  324. ralphm +1
  325. Alex ralphm, received no mail. can you send it again?
  326. arc +1
  327. Alex But I will volunteer again
  328. dwd +1
  329. Seve +1
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  331. Alex found in SPAM 🙄
  332. ralphm :-(
  333. ralphm Motion carries. Thanks Peter!
  334. ralphm I motion we appoint Alex as Secretary for the 2020/2021 term.
  335. ralphm +1
  336. dwd +1
  337. Seve +1
  338. ralphm arc?
  339. arc +1
  340. ralphm Motion carries. Thanks Alex!
  341. ralphm dwd: please make that full names in the minutes
  342. dwd Yup.
  343. ralphm 3. Voting Process
  344. ralphm This item came up last week. Go!
  345. dwd It appears as though the bylaws description of how we vote doesn't entirely match the memberbot implementation. Which is correct, and what do we do about it?
  346. ralphm For Board/Council or Members?
  347. Kev (FWIW from the peanut gallery, I feel quite strongly that the two options are doing what the Bylaws say, or updating the Bylaws, I don't think continuing to not follow them should be an option we consider)
  348. dwd Possibly both, but certainly Board/Council was mentioned.
  349. ralphm Kev: definitely, with a strong lean towards doing what the Bylaws say
  350. SamWhited From the peanut gallery: I say the opposite: if it ain't broke don't fix it. Just ignore the bylaws and do what we're doing today unless an actual change is needed.
  351. ralphm SamWhited, that's not how things work usually.
  352. SamWhited ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ who cares? I'm not trying to be silly, I really don't see the point of messing with it unless there's some actual reason to change things.
  353. ralphm I am not interested in legal challenges, TBH
  354. Zash We have enough undocumented lore in the protocols.
  355. SamWhited Why would there be a legal challenge?
  356. SamWhited Anyways, just my opinion; don't make more work for yourselves.
  357. dwd Right, "fixing" the bylaws is easy enough.
  358. ralphm I don't know, but this is not a book club
  359. Kev Ralph: You mean 'not interested in' as in "don't care that there's the posibility of" or "don't wish to see"?
  360. ralphm Kev: the latter obviously
  361. Kev Ralph: For the sake of clarity :)
  362. Zash Having the bylaws match reality is a good thing, regardless of which part(s) need to be changed for them to match.
  363. ralphm My point is that we are still a legal entity with rules and just ignoring them is not an option
  364. dwd SamWhited, So the problem is that people noted that the Council, for example, wasn't voted in in the way that the Bylaws say.
  365. ralphm Ok, so let's discuss what we have and what we think it should be.
  366. Kev I think the sticking point is that currently we might see a Board or Council made up of individuals who aren't eligible to be on them, based on the number of votes they received.
  367. dwd SamWhited, So someone who stood for, but didn't get into, the Council could complain. Nobody has, but still.
  368. Kev Every member of Board and Council must have received a +1 from the majority of (voting) members.
  369. dwd So the bylaws appear to state that we select the people with the most votes, as long as they have more than 50% of the vote.
  370. dwd Whereas the memberbot only allows people to vote for 5 people.
  371. dwd In principle, the bylaws allow a member to vote for all the candidates or none of them.
  372. Kev I'm not sure the bylaws suggest how voting has to happen, do they?
  373. Kev Merely how B/C must be selected based on the votes cast.
  374. Kev They *imply* how it has to happen, for it to not then break in the face of many candidates.
  375. ralphm So to follow the bylaws, for Council we should've had the possibility of casting 7 votes explicitly
  376. Alex IIRC the board was dedicing on how many seats there are for board and council. A long time ago it was 3, and then got increased to 5
  377. dwd Kev, I think the most obvious reading of the bylaws would lead to being able to vote more than 5 times.
  378. Alex but not sure where this is covered in the bylaws exactly
  379. dwd Alex, IIRC, it is the members who set that limit not the Board.
  380. ralphm The Bylaws state that the membership decides the number of seats. I think we did that, long time ago.
  381. Alex dwd, possible as well, we would need to research the old member mails
  382. ralphm Section 3.13 Voting Procedure for Election of Board and Council. Election of individuals to serve on the Board of Directors and on the XMPP Council shall proceed as follows. First, the number of individuals to serve on each body shall be limited beforehand by the Members as specified in Section 4.4 and Section 8.1 of these Bylaws for the Board and Council, respectively. Second, the Members shall vote on the candidates standing for election in accordance with Section 3.9 of these Bylaws. Third, the individuals elected shall be those receiving the highest percentage of votes cast, up to the limit set by the Members and with the proviso that no individual receiving less than a majority of votes cast shall be elected. Fourth, in the case of a tie for the final remaining position, the final individual shall be chosen in accordance with the procedures defined in “RFC 3797: Publicly Verifiable Nominations Committee (NomCom) Random Selection” published by the Internet Engineering Task Force.
  383. Alex the 50% rule definetly can be an issue when we have a huge numer of applicants, then in theory none of them could get 50% of the votes
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  386. dwd Alex, Yes, but only if you restrict the number of votes. Otherwise the risk is more ties, but we have a solution for that.
  387. Zash Bylaws made for a larger organization than what we are now?
  388. SamWhited If it's approval voting which this seems to suggest you could get less than 50% no matter how many members there are
  389. SamWhited no matter how many positions, that is.
  390. ralphm Zash: I don't think the XSF was much bigger when founded
  391. dwd SamWhited, That is true.
  392. arc And we have saved basically the same size sense
  393. arc Since
  394. ralphm If we'd done the Council voting as we do for (re-)electing members, it would have been according to 3.13, I think.
  395. dwd As a concrete proposal, then: I motion we change the memberbot to handle Board/Council votes as a simple y/n for each candidate.
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  399. ralphm dwd: that's equivalent to what I wrote, right? In that case +1
  400. dwd ralphm, I think it is equivalent, yes.
  401. arc +1
  402. Seve +1
  403. dwd +1 from me as well.
  404. ralphm Motion carries.
  405. dwd FWIW, I cannot remember who raised this originally - I'll have to go look in the chatroom logs for this room.
  406. ralphm Now the remaining question is, do we need to re-do or re-evaluate the way these elections were done?
  407. Zash <hat:member>Anyone considered a nominating committee?</hat:member>
  408. Kev (And from the peanut gallery, seems sensible to just change memberbot)
  409. dwd ralphm, Board is unaffected. Council might have been affected.
  410. SamWhited For board no one received under 50%, for Council only I did (and I do not contest the results, because that would be stupid).
  411. ralphm SamWhited, hehe
  412. Kev Neither Council nor Board is affected.
  413. arc Years ago Memberbot required exactly five votes for both board and Council. I'm the one that pointed out that error, and we continued to run the ongoing vote and just corrected it for the next year
  414. Kev The only people with less than 50% vote were not in the top 5.
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  417. dwd Kev, Yes, but the ordering might have altered, I suppose. That would affect my seat most likely.
  418. SamWhited ahhh, that's fair.
  419. arc So I would propose that we just say that we will apply this going forward
  420. Kev dwd: I don't believe the limit on the number of votes per person is actually a conflict with the Bylaws, it just leads to a problem with 50% votes.
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  422. ralphm I happy to keep the results as-is. If the membership disagrees, they have the ability to appeal.
  423. ralphm Note that memberbot did allow for having less than 5 yes votes
  424. Kev (I'm wrong, 3.9 says that what memberbot does is wrong, but I still agree with just changing memberbot and moving on)
  425. Kev (Or at least arguably says that)
  426. dwd I am forced to argue that we should actually re-do the Council vote, despite it really not being in my self-interest to do so.
  427. dwd ralphm, Want to propose a motion one way or the other?
  428. arc Dwd I would argue that that would break precident
  429. arc I already made a motion
  430. dwd arc, Oh, so you did.
  431. ralphm arc: indeed
  432. ralphm Let's vote on arc's motion
  433. Kev At this point, I'm inclined to agree with Sam's "Don't make work" :)
  434. ralphm +1
  435. Seve +1
  436. ralphm arc, dwd?
  437. ralphm (yes, you have to vote on your own motion)
  438. arc +1
  439. dwd Ugh. Redoing the Council election would be a lot of work, but I feel it is the correct thing to do, so -1.
  440. Seve > I happy to keep the results as-is. If the membership disagrees, they have the ability to appeal. It would be fair, dwd, but I also agree with ralphm, membership can appeal.
  441. Ge0rG dwd: can't you abstain due to conflict of interest? ;)
  442. dwd Ge0rG, If I were going to vote in favour, I would abstain for that reason.
  443. ralphm Noted. Let the record clearly show that Board recognises that the Board and Council election hasn't been done in accordance with the XSF Bylaws (for multiple years) and that Memberbot shall be adjusted to allow everyone to cast a yes/no vote for each candidate, instead of a maximum of 5 yes votes. If the membership disagrees they may appeal Board's decision to keep the results nonetheless, noting that Dave voted against.
  444. SamWhited wonders if dave just bit off more than he can chew with board *and* council and is trying to wiggle out of it and pass the burden onto Marvin (okay, sorry, I will stop interrupting the meeting and shut up now)
  445. ralphm SamWhited, you have the right to speak up during Board meetings.
  446. dwd SamWhited, Oh, no - I *want* to do both.
  447. SamWhited Yes, but one should probably avoid unnecessary jokes that don't contribute to the meeting :)
  448. ralphm With that:
  449. ralphm 4. AOB
  450. ralphm We're over time and I have fries waiting for me.
  451. arc Cold fries are dead fries, let's wrap
  452. Seve None here
  453. ralphm 5. Date of Next
  454. ralphm +1W
  455. ralphm 6. Close
  456. ralphm Thanks all!
  457. ralphm bangs gavel
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  459. Seve Thank you all! Have a good weekend :)
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  467. dwd And the minutes should be in your inboxes.
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  539. lovetox regarding that codepoint/byte discussion
  540. lovetox obviously bytes would be retarded solution for python
  541. lovetox but i recognize that the solution needs to fit all languages
  542. lovetox all talk only about the one direction, finding a reference with start and end point
  543. Zash I'd just go with Unicode characters. Should be good enough.
  544. lovetox but how woudl the other way around work in python
  545. lovetox i have a string i know i want to quote 5 - 20
  546. lovetox now i encode that to utf8
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  548. lovetox how do i find out start and end in the utf8 bytes
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  550. Zash Loop? The answer to all computer questions is loop.
  551. lovetox i could encode 0-4 and then get the length off that
  552. Zash start := str[0:5].encode("utf8").len end := str[0:20].encode("utf8").len ???
  553. lovetox yeah
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  556. Zash Counting UTF-8 sequences is easy if you have bytes too, using the magical construct called "loop".
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  558. Zash Was there prior art from elsewhere in the beginning of this thread?
  559. Zash (or, the previous thread rather)
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  569. SamWhited If you don't care about efficiency you can encode it then decode it. I assume it has a unicode package or something where you can loop and do it quicker as Zash said too. Been a long time since I've done Python, but something like this if you had a range of 0-6 bytes: "ⅧⅧⅧ".encode()[0:6].decode()
  570. lovetox i dont see any point to make this as efficient as possible
  571. lovetox its not like i have to resolve 10.000 references per second
  572. lovetox of course i would want to operate on strings with python
  573. Zash If you select some text in your GUI framework, what data do you get?
  574. lovetox because its natural and easy and needs no calculations at all
  575. lovetox strings Zash
  576. lovetox but this is a matter of the bindings
  577. SamWhited Some people work in different environments than you do.
  578. SamWhited In GTK you can generally operate on bytes or on some string like concept that they have that I don't know how it works internally that lets you access "characters". If you do operations on that they're all cached to make them fast enough to be okay on the UI thread.
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  580. lovetox it totally depends on the bindings you use
  581. SamWhited Sure, bindings might do extra work to adapt that to whatever language you're using. But in GTK itself it works as I described.
  582. Zash *a*̈
  583. lovetox feels like a discussion with no correct solution
  584. lovetox some will have more work with one solution, others less
  585. lovetox and efficiency is no argument at all for me
  586. Zash Unicode code point array looks like the middle point to me.
  587. lovetox we decode and encode so much to put it on the stream or read it or display it in the GUI
  588. lovetox here and there a reference is a drop in the bucket
  589. SamWhited Another possible way of thinking about it (although I'm not yet sure if it matters or is helpful or not) is that a range in bytes corresponds to the XML where you have UTF-8. A range in Code points effectively corresponds to UTF-32, which is not what exists in the XML. I'd like the range to make sense in an XML document representing a session, not just after we've done some work at a higher level.
  590. Zash Something just gave me a headache. Good night.
  591. SamWhited Maybe that doesn't really matter, but semantically it makes more sense to me.
  592. lovetox i have to say i dont care also as long as its doable
  593. lovetox and works
  594. Zash There's one perfect solution, it's called "Bring back XHTML-IM"
  595. SamWhited Yah, that would be really nice<script>haxor.zash(123)</script>
  596. SamWhited <font background=white color=yellow>if only we had XHTML-IM</font>
  597. SamWhited :)
  598. Zash <span id="ref1">SamWhited</span>: Everyone else is using HTML (not XHTML) in JSON and get away with it. Surely we can too.
  599. Zash And surely in our XML environment we can get away with XHTML.
  600. SamWhited Are they getting away with it though, or is the web a mess and every random product is generally trivially easy to break?
  601. Zash Styles can be filtered out.
  602. SamWhited But jokes aside, I don't even want to use this for styling but generally feel we do need a way to select ranges of text
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  605. Zash <span>
  606. Zash solved
  607. SamWhited I kind of hate the idea that you'd have to duplicate the body if you wanted fallback support, then you run into all the issues with clients putting different things in each body, but maybe you're right.
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  609. Zash There'll be problems regardless of method.
  610. SamWhited Indeed
  611. Zash People showing 393 into HTML-passtrough Markdown libraries tells me that entire approach didn't solve the "XHTML-IM is insecure" problem.
  612. Zash I don't think that's solvable, that's the web being .. the web.
  613. SamWhited Has anyone done that? I mean, yah, that would be bad
  614. Zash Yes.
  615. Zash Someone did that.
  616. SamWhited But I really didn't think people would do that because it obviously wouldn't be 393. You'd just end up with markdown and like 2 of the styles would be the same and the rest would be different
  617. SamWhited Link?
  618. Zash "This looks like Markdown. I'll use this markdown library. Done! Ship it!"
  619. Zash Converse.js plugin IIRC
  620. SamWhited cool, I'll go look. I've seen their implementation and it wasn't using a library, but maybe there was an older one
  621. SamWhited Thanks
  622. Zash Probably mentioned in the logs here or council@
  623. SamWhited I don't think I've ever been able to find anything in chat logs ever, but I'll look :) THe earliest commit I see linked on the repo was a custom implementation anyways
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  626. Zash Aha: https://github.com/igniterealtime/Pade/issues/79
  627. SamWhited That specifically says it's not XEP-0393, doesn't look like a mistaken implementation, looks like they just wanted markdown?
  628. Zash Note the edit
  629. SamWhited oh cool, I don't think I realized you could see history. "As much of XEP-0393 as possible" still makes me wonder, but yah, fair enough
  630. Zash Not sure if I've seen other cases of 393 vs markdown confusion, but I do remember that this one
  631. SamWhited "My use case will be markdown code pasted from GitHub or elsewhere" still sounds like they deliberately wanted markdown
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  633. Zash The confusion was pointed out and a bunch of the comments have since been edited
  634. Zash Still. There was confusion at first.
  635. Zash Aaaaaaand then: https://github.com/markedjs/marked#usage
  636. SamWhited yah, you're right, found an edited comment where he specifically said that it was markdown but would *also* give XEP-0393 compatibility, looks like the author just messed with the history
  637. Zash Maybe 393 should have a red blinking comic sans warning :)
  638. Zash THIS IS NOT MARKDOWN!!!!!1eleven
  639. SamWhited Still, they noticed and it didn't get shipped, so 🤷
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  642. Zash How many others might have made that mistake without me or someone being around to panic about it?
  643. SamWhited I dunno, I just assume they'd at least try styling once and realize the styles didn't actually work, but maybe that's optimistic for "the web"
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