November was when the announcement was sent out: https://web.archive.org/web/20021230183123/http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/ietf-announce/Current/msg21379.html
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SamWhited
Damn, you've nerd sniped me. It was before the drat anyways; here's a reference from Jan 2002: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/jdev/2002-January/069346.html
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SamWhited
Sounds like it might have been an IETF term and "Jabber" was just one candidate protocol to be the IETFs "XMPP"
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SamWhited
Oh no, definitely named within the Jabber community sometime before Jan 2002: https://web.archive.org/web/20020305041511/https://perl.jabber.org/logs/conference.jabber.org/foundation/2002-01-09.html
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Zash
IETF had the IMPP and CMP(?) things
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Zash
So that February draft is the one mentioned in that jded post as for archival purposes
SamWhited
> [13:32] <stpeter> ick, i hate XMPP :P
SamWhited
:o
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Ge0rG
Well, don't we all?
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Zash
Hahaha. There's a discussion about what to do about inactive projects in listings in that chat log.
dwd
Well, we should come to a conclusion on that topic in another decade or two.
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Zash
> [13:17] <Dave> Maybe we should have a "dead projects" section?
I didn't found any PHP PRECIS libraries unfortunately
SamWhited
oh cool, they used my package as an example and I think used my graphs with some modifications, that makes me feel good
SamWhited
oh I see, this is taken from the old SO Documentation site before that was shut down, so definitely my graphs. Cool!
Zash
SO?
jonas’
stackoverflow
SamWhited
So I guess that "they" didn't so much "use my graphs" as "I wrote that" :)
jonas’
heh
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flow
hmm, CC BY-SA violation?
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SamWhited
It's got a link to contributors at the bottom (and we're both on there). Took me a while to find.
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arc
Happy Friday everyone
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Zash
ÄNTLIGEN
ralphmbangs gavel
ralphm
0. Welcome
ralphm
Hi! Who do we have, and what's on your mind?
arc
Present
Zash
What's this? Board meeting? On a Friday?
ralphm
Zash: new round, new changes
ralphm
Seve, dwd, MattJ
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Seve
Hello
dwd
Hiya.
arc
Dwd I think that is your turn to do the minutes this week
ralphm
It seems we're at:
ralphm
1. Minute taker
ralphm
:-D
dwd
OK.
ralphm
2. Appointment of Officers
ralphm
I sent out an e-mail to both Alex and Peter.
ralphm
Peter responded with "Yes, of course!", so I motion we re-appoint him has Treasurer for the 2020/2021 term.
ralphm
+1
Alex
ralphm, received no mail. can you send it again?
arc
+1
Alex
But I will volunteer again
dwd
+1
Seve
+1
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Alex
found in SPAM 🙄
ralphm
:-(
ralphm
Motion carries. Thanks Peter!
ralphm
I motion we appoint Alex as Secretary for the 2020/2021 term.
ralphm
+1
dwd
+1
Seve
+1
ralphm
arc?
arc
+1
ralphm
Motion carries. Thanks Alex!
ralphm
dwd: please make that full names in the minutes
dwd
Yup.
ralphm
3. Voting Process
ralphm
This item came up last week. Go!
dwd
It appears as though the bylaws description of how we vote doesn't entirely match the memberbot implementation. Which is correct, and what do we do about it?
ralphm
For Board/Council or Members?
Kev
(FWIW from the peanut gallery, I feel quite strongly that the two options are doing what the Bylaws say, or updating the Bylaws, I don't think continuing to not follow them should be an option we consider)
dwd
Possibly both, but certainly Board/Council was mentioned.
ralphm
Kev: definitely, with a strong lean towards doing what the Bylaws say
SamWhited
From the peanut gallery: I say the opposite: if it ain't broke don't fix it. Just ignore the bylaws and do what we're doing today unless an actual change is needed.
ralphm
SamWhited, that's not how things work usually.
SamWhited
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ who cares? I'm not trying to be silly, I really don't see the point of messing with it unless there's some actual reason to change things.
ralphm
I am not interested in legal challenges, TBH
Zash
We have enough undocumented lore in the protocols.
SamWhited
Why would there be a legal challenge?
SamWhited
Anyways, just my opinion; don't make more work for yourselves.
dwd
Right, "fixing" the bylaws is easy enough.
ralphm
I don't know, but this is not a book club
Kev
Ralph: You mean 'not interested in' as in "don't care that there's the posibility of" or "don't wish to see"?
ralphm
Kev: the latter obviously
Kev
Ralph: For the sake of clarity :)
Zash
Having the bylaws match reality is a good thing, regardless of which part(s) need to be changed for them to match.
ralphm
My point is that we are still a legal entity with rules and just ignoring them is not an option
dwd
SamWhited, So the problem is that people noted that the Council, for example, wasn't voted in in the way that the Bylaws say.
ralphm
Ok, so let's discuss what we have and what we think it should be.
Kev
I think the sticking point is that currently we might see a Board or Council made up of individuals who aren't eligible to be on them, based on the number of votes they received.
dwd
SamWhited, So someone who stood for, but didn't get into, the Council could complain. Nobody has, but still.
Kev
Every member of Board and Council must have received a +1 from the majority of (voting) members.
dwd
So the bylaws appear to state that we select the people with the most votes, as long as they have more than 50% of the vote.
dwd
Whereas the memberbot only allows people to vote for 5 people.
dwd
In principle, the bylaws allow a member to vote for all the candidates or none of them.
Kev
I'm not sure the bylaws suggest how voting has to happen, do they?
Kev
Merely how B/C must be selected based on the votes cast.
Kev
They *imply* how it has to happen, for it to not then break in the face of many candidates.
ralphm
So to follow the bylaws, for Council we should've had the possibility of casting 7 votes explicitly
Alex
IIRC the board was dedicing on how many seats there are for board and council. A long time ago it was 3, and then got increased to 5
dwd
Kev, I think the most obvious reading of the bylaws would lead to being able to vote more than 5 times.
Alex
but not sure where this is covered in the bylaws exactly
dwd
Alex, IIRC, it is the members who set that limit not the Board.
ralphm
The Bylaws state that the membership decides the number of seats. I think we did that, long time ago.
Alex
dwd, possible as well, we would need to research the old member mails
ralphm
Section 3.13 Voting Procedure for Election of Board and Council. Election of individuals to serve on the Board of Directors and on the XMPP Council shall proceed as follows. First, the number of individuals to serve on each body shall be limited beforehand by the Members as specified in Section 4.4 and Section 8.1 of these Bylaws for the Board and Council, respectively. Second, the Members shall vote on the candidates standing for election in accordance with Section 3.9 of these Bylaws. Third, the individuals elected shall be those receiving the highest percentage of votes cast, up to the limit set by the Members and with the proviso that no individual receiving less than a majority of votes cast shall be elected. Fourth, in the case of a tie for the final remaining position, the final individual shall be chosen in accordance with the procedures defined in “RFC 3797: Publicly Verifiable Nominations Committee (NomCom) Random Selection” published by the Internet Engineering Task Force.
Alex
the 50% rule definetly can be an issue when we have a huge numer of applicants, then in theory none of them could get 50% of the votes
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dwd
Alex, Yes, but only if you restrict the number of votes. Otherwise the risk is more ties, but we have a solution for that.
Zash
Bylaws made for a larger organization than what we are now?
SamWhited
If it's approval voting which this seems to suggest you could get less than 50% no matter how many members there are
SamWhited
no matter how many positions, that is.
ralphm
Zash: I don't think the XSF was much bigger when founded
dwd
SamWhited, That is true.
arc
And we have saved basically the same size sense
arc
Since
ralphm
If we'd done the Council voting as we do for (re-)electing members, it would have been according to 3.13, I think.
dwd
As a concrete proposal, then: I motion we change the memberbot to handle Board/Council votes as a simple y/n for each candidate.
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ralphm
dwd: that's equivalent to what I wrote, right? In that case +1
dwd
ralphm, I think it is equivalent, yes.
arc
+1
Seve
+1
dwd
+1 from me as well.
ralphm
Motion carries.
dwd
FWIW, I cannot remember who raised this originally - I'll have to go look in the chatroom logs for this room.
ralphm
Now the remaining question is, do we need to re-do or re-evaluate the way these elections were done?
Zash
<hat:member>Anyone considered a nominating committee?</hat:member>
Kev
(And from the peanut gallery, seems sensible to just change memberbot)
dwd
ralphm, Board is unaffected. Council might have been affected.
SamWhited
For board no one received under 50%, for Council only I did (and I do not contest the results, because that would be stupid).
ralphm
SamWhited, hehe
Kev
Neither Council nor Board is affected.
arc
Years ago Memberbot required exactly five votes for both board and Council. I'm the one that pointed out that error, and we continued to run the ongoing vote and just corrected it for the next year
Kev
The only people with less than 50% vote were not in the top 5.
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dwd
Kev, Yes, but the ordering might have altered, I suppose. That would affect my seat most likely.
SamWhited
ahhh, that's fair.
arc
So I would propose that we just say that we will apply this going forward
Kev
dwd: I don't believe the limit on the number of votes per person is actually a conflict with the Bylaws, it just leads to a problem with 50% votes.
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ralphm
I happy to keep the results as-is. If the membership disagrees, they have the ability to appeal.
ralphm
Note that memberbot did allow for having less than 5 yes votes
Kev
(I'm wrong, 3.9 says that what memberbot does is wrong, but I still agree with just changing memberbot and moving on)
Kev
(Or at least arguably says that)
dwd
I am forced to argue that we should actually re-do the Council vote, despite it really not being in my self-interest to do so.
dwd
ralphm, Want to propose a motion one way or the other?
arc
Dwd I would argue that that would break precident
arc
I already made a motion
dwd
arc, Oh, so you did.
ralphm
arc: indeed
ralphm
Let's vote on arc's motion
Kev
At this point, I'm inclined to agree with Sam's "Don't make work" :)
ralphm
+1
Seve
+1
ralphm
arc, dwd?
ralphm
(yes, you have to vote on your own motion)
arc
+1
dwd
Ugh. Redoing the Council election would be a lot of work, but I feel it is the correct thing to do, so -1.
Seve
> I happy to keep the results as-is. If the membership disagrees, they have the ability to appeal.
It would be fair, dwd, but I also agree with ralphm, membership can appeal.
Ge0rG
dwd: can't you abstain due to conflict of interest? ;)
dwd
Ge0rG, If I were going to vote in favour, I would abstain for that reason.
ralphm
Noted. Let the record clearly show that Board recognises that the Board and Council election hasn't been done in accordance with the XSF Bylaws (for multiple years) and that Memberbot shall be adjusted to allow everyone to cast a yes/no vote for each candidate, instead of a maximum of 5 yes votes. If the membership disagrees they may appeal Board's decision to keep the results nonetheless, noting that Dave voted against.
SamWhitedwonders if dave just bit off more than he can chew with board *and* council and is trying to wiggle out of it and pass the burden onto Marvin (okay, sorry, I will stop interrupting the meeting and shut up now)
ralphm
SamWhited, you have the right to speak up during Board meetings.
dwd
SamWhited, Oh, no - I *want* to do both.
SamWhited
Yes, but one should probably avoid unnecessary jokes that don't contribute to the meeting :)
ralphm
With that:
ralphm
4. AOB
ralphm
We're over time and I have fries waiting for me.
arc
Cold fries are dead fries, let's wrap
Seve
None here
ralphm
5. Date of Next
ralphm
+1W
ralphm
6. Close
ralphm
Thanks all!
ralphmbangs gavel
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Seve
Thank you all! Have a good weekend :)
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dwd
And the minutes should be in your inboxes.
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lovetox
regarding that codepoint/byte discussion
lovetox
obviously bytes would be retarded solution for python
lovetox
but i recognize that the solution needs to fit all languages
lovetox
all talk only about the one direction, finding a reference with start and end point
Zash
I'd just go with Unicode characters. Should be good enough.
lovetox
but how woudl the other way around work in python
lovetox
i have a string i know i want to quote 5 - 20
lovetox
now i encode that to utf8
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lovetox
how do i find out start and end in the utf8 bytes
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Zash
Loop? The answer to all computer questions is loop.
lovetox
i could encode 0-4 and then get the length off that
Zash
start := str[0:5].encode("utf8").len
end := str[0:20].encode("utf8").len
???
lovetox
yeah
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Zash
Counting UTF-8 sequences is easy if you have bytes too, using the magical construct called "loop".
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Zash
Was there prior art from elsewhere in the beginning of this thread?
Zash
(or, the previous thread rather)
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SamWhited
If you don't care about efficiency you can encode it then decode it. I assume it has a unicode package or something where you can loop and do it quicker as Zash said too. Been a long time since I've done Python, but something like this if you had a range of 0-6 bytes: "ⅧⅧⅧ".encode()[0:6].decode()
lovetox
i dont see any point to make this as efficient as possible
lovetox
its not like i have to resolve 10.000 references per second
lovetox
of course i would want to operate on strings with python
Zash
If you select some text in your GUI framework, what data do you get?
lovetox
because its natural and easy and needs no calculations at all
lovetox
strings Zash
lovetox
but this is a matter of the bindings
SamWhited
Some people work in different environments than you do.
SamWhited
In GTK you can generally operate on bytes or on some string like concept that they have that I don't know how it works internally that lets you access "characters". If you do operations on that they're all cached to make them fast enough to be okay on the UI thread.
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lovetox
it totally depends on the bindings you use
SamWhited
Sure, bindings might do extra work to adapt that to whatever language you're using. But in GTK itself it works as I described.
Zash
*a*̈
lovetox
feels like a discussion with no correct solution
lovetox
some will have more work with one solution, others less
lovetox
and efficiency is no argument at all for me
Zash
Unicode code point array looks like the middle point to me.
lovetox
we decode and encode so much to put it on the stream or read it or display it in the GUI
lovetox
here and there a reference is a drop in the bucket
SamWhited
Another possible way of thinking about it (although I'm not yet sure if it matters or is helpful or not) is that a range in bytes corresponds to the XML where you have UTF-8. A range in Code points effectively corresponds to UTF-32, which is not what exists in the XML. I'd like the range to make sense in an XML document representing a session, not just after we've done some work at a higher level.
Zash
Something just gave me a headache. Good night.
SamWhited
Maybe that doesn't really matter, but semantically it makes more sense to me.
lovetox
i have to say i dont care also as long as its doable
lovetox
and works
Zash
There's one perfect solution, it's called "Bring back XHTML-IM"
SamWhited
Yah, that would be really nice<script>haxor.zash(123)</script>
SamWhited
<font background=white color=yellow>if only we had XHTML-IM</font>
SamWhited
:)
Zash
<span id="ref1">SamWhited</span>: Everyone else is using HTML (not XHTML) in JSON and get away with it. Surely we can too.
Zash
And surely in our XML environment we can get away with XHTML.
SamWhited
Are they getting away with it though, or is the web a mess and every random product is generally trivially easy to break?
Zash
Styles can be filtered out.
SamWhited
But jokes aside, I don't even want to use this for styling but generally feel we do need a way to select ranges of text
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Zash
<span>
Zash
solved
SamWhited
I kind of hate the idea that you'd have to duplicate the body if you wanted fallback support, then you run into all the issues with clients putting different things in each body, but maybe you're right.
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Zash
There'll be problems regardless of method.
SamWhited
Indeed
Zash
People showing 393 into HTML-passtrough Markdown libraries tells me that entire approach didn't solve the "XHTML-IM is insecure" problem.
Zash
I don't think that's solvable, that's the web being .. the web.
SamWhited
Has anyone done that? I mean, yah, that would be bad
Zash
Yes.
Zash
Someone did that.
SamWhited
But I really didn't think people would do that because it obviously wouldn't be 393. You'd just end up with markdown and like 2 of the styles would be the same and the rest would be different
SamWhited
Link?
Zash
"This looks like Markdown. I'll use this markdown library. Done! Ship it!"
Zash
Converse.js plugin IIRC
SamWhited
cool, I'll go look. I've seen their implementation and it wasn't using a library, but maybe there was an older one
SamWhited
Thanks
Zash
Probably mentioned in the logs here or council@
SamWhited
I don't think I've ever been able to find anything in chat logs ever, but I'll look :) THe earliest commit I see linked on the repo was a custom implementation anyways
yah, you're right, found an edited comment where he specifically said that it was markdown but would *also* give XEP-0393 compatibility, looks like the author just messed with the history
Zash
Maybe 393 should have a red blinking comic sans warning :)
Zash
THIS IS NOT MARKDOWN!!!!!1eleven
SamWhited
Still, they noticed and it didn't get shipped, so 🤷
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Zash
How many others might have made that mistake without me or someone being around to panic about it?
SamWhited
I dunno, I just assume they'd at least try styling once and realize the styles didn't actually work, but maybe that's optimistic for "the web"