XSF Discussion - 2020-12-04

  1. alameyo has left
  2. alameyo has joined
  3. debacle has left
  4. krauq has left
  5. krauq has joined
  6. emus has left
  7. NosoyHacker404 has left
  8. Adi has left
  9. Adi has joined
  10. govanify has left
  11. govanify has joined
  12. Neustradamus has left
  13. Neustradamus has joined
  14. SamWhited November was when the announcement was sent out: https://web.archive.org/web/20021230183123/http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/ietf-announce/Current/msg21379.html
  15. NosoyHacker404 has joined
  16. wladmis has left
  17. wladmis has joined
  18. SamWhited Damn, you've nerd sniped me. It was before the drat anyways; here's a reference from Jan 2002: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/jdev/2002-January/069346.html
  19. lskdjf has left
  20. SamWhited Sounds like it might have been an IETF term and "Jabber" was just one candidate protocol to be the IETFs "XMPP"
  21. NosoyHacker404 has left
  22. amuza@riseup.net has left
  23. amuza@riseup.net has joined
  24. SamWhited Oh no, definitely named within the Jabber community sometime before Jan 2002: https://web.archive.org/web/20020305041511/https://perl.jabber.org/logs/conference.jabber.org/foundation/2002-01-09.html
  25. Arne has left
  26. Zash IETF had the IMPP and CMP(?) things
  27. Shell has left
  28. Arne has joined
  29. Zash So that February draft is the one mentioned in that jded post as for archival purposes
  30. SamWhited > [13:32] <stpeter> ick, i hate XMPP :P
  31. SamWhited :o
  32. krauq has left
  33. krauq has joined
  34. sonny has left
  35. sonny has joined
  36. Arne has left
  37. Arne has joined
  38. matkor has left
  39. sonny has left
  40. sonny has joined
  41. sonny has left
  42. sonny has joined
  43. finebrew28 has left
  44. finebrew28 has joined
  45. govanify has left
  46. govanify has joined
  47. sonny has left
  48. sonny has joined
  49. sonny has left
  50. sonny has joined
  51. go2rust has joined
  52. krauq has left
  53. krauq has joined
  54. go2rust has left
  55. wladmis has left
  56. chronosx88 has joined
  57. finebrew28 has left
  58. finebrew28 has joined
  59. govanify has left
  60. govanify has joined
  61. Yagiza has joined
  62. adiaholic has left
  63. adiaholic has joined
  64. krauq has left
  65. krauq has joined
  66. govanify has left
  67. govanify has joined
  68. govanify has left
  69. govanify has joined
  70. krauq has left
  71. krauq has joined
  72. andy has joined
  73. govanify has left
  74. govanify has joined
  75. adiaholic has left
  76. adiaholic has joined
  77. lorddavidiii has joined
  78. DebXWoody has joined
  79. sonny has left
  80. sonny has joined
  81. govanify has left
  82. govanify has joined
  83. Tobias has joined
  84. Mikaela has joined
  85. govanify has left
  86. govanify has joined
  87. arc has left
  88. krauq has left
  89. krauq has joined
  90. chronosx88 has left
  91. chronosx88 has joined
  92. chronosx88 has left
  93. chronosx88 has joined
  94. finebrew28 has left
  95. APach has left
  96. wurstsalat has joined
  97. j.r has left
  98. j.r has joined
  99. lorddavidiii has left
  100. lorddavidiii has joined
  101. finebrew28 has joined
  102. chronosx88 has left
  103. chronosx88 has joined
  104. APach has joined
  105. intosi has left
  106. lorddavidiii has left
  107. NosoyHacker404 has joined
  108. Ge0rG Well, don't we all?
  109. intosi has joined
  110. floretta has left
  111. lorddavidiii has joined
  112. matkor has joined
  113. govanify has left
  114. govanify has joined
  115. intosi has left
  116. paul has left
  117. paul has joined
  118. Arne has left
  119. Arne has joined
  120. wladmis has joined
  121. intosi has joined
  122. govanify has left
  123. govanify has joined
  124. Alex has joined
  125. emus has joined
  126. wladmis has left
  127. wladmis has joined
  128. goffi has joined
  129. Kev has joined
  130. Shell has joined
  131. adiaholic has left
  132. adiaholic has joined
  133. lorddavidiii has left
  134. lorddavidiii has joined
  135. wladmis has left
  136. wladmis has joined
  137. finebrew28 has left
  138. chronosx88 has left
  139. chronosx88 has joined
  140. APach has left
  141. deuill has left
  142. finebrew28 has joined
  143. floretta has joined
  144. pasdesushi has joined
  145. emus has left
  146. emus has joined
  147. APach has joined
  148. lskdjf has joined
  149. floretta has left
  150. pasdesushi has left
  151. debacle has joined
  152. govanify has left
  153. govanify has joined
  154. Steve Kille has left
  155. Steve Kille has joined
  156. pasdesushi has joined
  157. raghavgururajan has left
  158. pasdesushi has left
  159. pasdesushi has joined
  160. raghavgururajan has joined
  161. pasdesushi has left
  162. inky has left
  163. inky has joined
  164. lorddavidiii has left
  165. lorddavidiii has joined
  166. adiaholic has left
  167. Steve Kille has left
  168. govanify has left
  169. govanify has joined
  170. adiaholic has joined
  171. Steve Kille has joined
  172. pasdesushi has joined
  173. pasdesushi has left
  174. govanify has left
  175. govanify has joined
  176. Zash Hahaha. There's a discussion about what to do about inactive projects in listings in that chat log.
  177. dwd Well, we should come to a conclusion on that topic in another decade or two.
  178. finebrew28 has left
  179. Zash > [13:17] <Dave> Maybe we should have a "dead projects" section?
  180. adiaholic has left
  181. adiaholic has joined
  182. dwd (Not me, in case anyone's confused)
  183. Zash I'm confused
  184. Zash There can be only one Dave!
  185. dwd Zash, Sadly not true.
  186. pasdesushi has joined
  187. pasdesushi has left
  188. pasdesushi has joined
  189. alameyo has left
  190. pasdesushi has left
  191. pasdesushi has joined
  192. floretta has joined
  193. alameyo has joined
  194. pasdesushi has left
  195. eevvoor has joined
  196. govanify has left
  197. govanify has joined
  198. finebrew28 has joined
  199. Wojtek has joined
  200. floretta has left
  201. serge90 has joined
  202. paul has left
  203. paul has joined
  204. paul has left
  205. paul has joined
  206. paul has left
  207. paul has joined
  208. krauq has left
  209. krauq has joined
  210. Adi has left
  211. adiaholic has left
  212. j.r has left
  213. j.r has joined
  214. sonny has left
  215. sonny has joined
  216. lorddavidiii has left
  217. j.r has left
  218. j.r has joined
  219. paul has left
  220. paul has joined
  221. paul has left
  222. paul has joined
  223. floretta has joined
  224. Adi has joined
  225. j.r has left
  226. lorddavidiii has joined
  227. j.r has joined
  228. eevvoor has left
  229. paul has left
  230. paul has joined
  231. lovetox has joined
  232. adiaholic has joined
  233. sonny has left
  234. sonny has joined
  235. finebrew28 has left
  236. lovetox has left
  237. adiaholic has left
  238. adiaholic has joined
  239. chronosx88 has left
  240. chronosx88 has joined
  241. lorddavidiii has left
  242. adiaholic has left
  243. adiaholic has joined
  244. eevvoor has joined
  245. lovetox has joined
  246. edhelas https://sodocumentation.net/xmpp/topic/3036/xmpp-addresses-aka--jids--jabber-identifiers- nice documentation
  247. edhelas I didn't found any PHP PRECIS libraries unfortunately
  248. SamWhited oh cool, they used my package as an example and I think used my graphs with some modifications, that makes me feel good
  249. SamWhited oh I see, this is taken from the old SO Documentation site before that was shut down, so definitely my graphs. Cool!
  250. Zash SO?
  251. jonas’ stackoverflow
  252. SamWhited So I guess that "they" didn't so much "use my graphs" as "I wrote that" :)
  253. jonas’ heh
  254. adiaholic has left
  255. adiaholic has joined
  256. Andrzej has left
  257. Andrzej has joined
  258. Andrzej has left
  259. Steve Kille has left
  260. finebrew28 has joined
  261. adiaholic has left
  262. adiaholic has joined
  263. Andrzej has joined
  264. Steve Kille has joined
  265. j.r has left
  266. j.r has joined
  267. eevvoor has left
  268. eevvoor has joined
  269. lorddavidiii has joined
  270. wladmis has left
  271. wladmis has joined
  272. wladmis has left
  273. finebrew28 has left
  274. Andrzej has left
  275. alex-a-soto has left
  276. alex-a-soto has joined
  277. wladmis has joined
  278. finebrew28 has joined
  279. wladmis has left
  280. Andrzej has joined
  281. flow hmm, CC BY-SA violation?
  282. emus has left
  283. wladmis has joined
  284. emus has joined
  285. SamWhited It's got a link to contributors at the bottom (and we're both on there). Took me a while to find.
  286. Andrzej has left
  287. sonny has left
  288. sonny has joined
  289. sonny has left
  290. sonny has joined
  291. arc has joined
  292. lorddavidiii has left
  293. Andrzej has joined
  294. sonny has left
  295. sonny has joined
  296. sonny has left
  297. sonny has joined
  298. lorddavidiii has joined
  299. APach has left
  300. APach has joined
  301. lorddavidiii has left
  302. arc Happy Friday everyone
  303. adiaholic has left
  304. adiaholic has joined
  305. Zash ÄNTLIGEN
  306. ralphm bangs gavel
  307. ralphm 0. Welcome
  308. ralphm Hi! Who do we have, and what's on your mind?
  309. arc Present
  310. Zash What's this? Board meeting? On a Friday?
  311. ralphm Zash: new round, new changes
  312. ralphm Seve, dwd, MattJ
  313. NosoyHacker404 has left
  314. Seve Hello
  315. dwd Hiya.
  316. arc Dwd I think that is your turn to do the minutes this week
  317. ralphm It seems we're at:
  318. ralphm 1. Minute taker
  319. ralphm :-D
  320. dwd OK.
  321. ralphm 2. Appointment of Officers
  322. ralphm I sent out an e-mail to both Alex and Peter.
  323. ralphm Peter responded with "Yes, of course!", so I motion we re-appoint him has Treasurer for the 2020/2021 term.
  324. ralphm +1
  325. Alex ralphm, received no mail. can you send it again?
  326. arc +1
  327. Alex But I will volunteer again
  328. dwd +1
  329. Seve +1
  330. wevifa has joined
  331. Alex found in SPAM 🙄
  332. ralphm :-(
  333. ralphm Motion carries. Thanks Peter!
  334. ralphm I motion we appoint Alex as Secretary for the 2020/2021 term.
  335. ralphm +1
  336. dwd +1
  337. Seve +1
  338. ralphm arc?
  339. arc +1
  340. ralphm Motion carries. Thanks Alex!
  341. ralphm dwd: please make that full names in the minutes
  342. dwd Yup.
  343. ralphm 3. Voting Process
  344. ralphm This item came up last week. Go!
  345. dwd It appears as though the bylaws description of how we vote doesn't entirely match the memberbot implementation. Which is correct, and what do we do about it?
  346. ralphm For Board/Council or Members?
  347. Kev (FWIW from the peanut gallery, I feel quite strongly that the two options are doing what the Bylaws say, or updating the Bylaws, I don't think continuing to not follow them should be an option we consider)
  348. dwd Possibly both, but certainly Board/Council was mentioned.
  349. ralphm Kev: definitely, with a strong lean towards doing what the Bylaws say
  350. SamWhited From the peanut gallery: I say the opposite: if it ain't broke don't fix it. Just ignore the bylaws and do what we're doing today unless an actual change is needed.
  351. ralphm SamWhited, that's not how things work usually.
  352. SamWhited ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ who cares? I'm not trying to be silly, I really don't see the point of messing with it unless there's some actual reason to change things.
  353. ralphm I am not interested in legal challenges, TBH
  354. Zash We have enough undocumented lore in the protocols.
  355. SamWhited Why would there be a legal challenge?
  356. SamWhited Anyways, just my opinion; don't make more work for yourselves.
  357. dwd Right, "fixing" the bylaws is easy enough.
  358. ralphm I don't know, but this is not a book club
  359. Kev Ralph: You mean 'not interested in' as in "don't care that there's the posibility of" or "don't wish to see"?
  360. ralphm Kev: the latter obviously
  361. Kev Ralph: For the sake of clarity :)
  362. Zash Having the bylaws match reality is a good thing, regardless of which part(s) need to be changed for them to match.
  363. ralphm My point is that we are still a legal entity with rules and just ignoring them is not an option
  364. dwd SamWhited, So the problem is that people noted that the Council, for example, wasn't voted in in the way that the Bylaws say.
  365. ralphm Ok, so let's discuss what we have and what we think it should be.
  366. Kev I think the sticking point is that currently we might see a Board or Council made up of individuals who aren't eligible to be on them, based on the number of votes they received.
  367. dwd SamWhited, So someone who stood for, but didn't get into, the Council could complain. Nobody has, but still.
  368. Kev Every member of Board and Council must have received a +1 from the majority of (voting) members.
  369. dwd So the bylaws appear to state that we select the people with the most votes, as long as they have more than 50% of the vote.
  370. dwd Whereas the memberbot only allows people to vote for 5 people.
  371. dwd In principle, the bylaws allow a member to vote for all the candidates or none of them.
  372. Kev I'm not sure the bylaws suggest how voting has to happen, do they?
  373. Kev Merely how B/C must be selected based on the votes cast.
  374. Kev They *imply* how it has to happen, for it to not then break in the face of many candidates.
  375. ralphm So to follow the bylaws, for Council we should've had the possibility of casting 7 votes explicitly
  376. Alex IIRC the board was dedicing on how many seats there are for board and council. A long time ago it was 3, and then got increased to 5
  377. dwd Kev, I think the most obvious reading of the bylaws would lead to being able to vote more than 5 times.
  378. Alex but not sure where this is covered in the bylaws exactly
  379. dwd Alex, IIRC, it is the members who set that limit not the Board.
  380. ralphm The Bylaws state that the membership decides the number of seats. I think we did that, long time ago.
  381. Alex dwd, possible as well, we would need to research the old member mails
  382. ralphm Section 3.13 Voting Procedure for Election of Board and Council. Election of individuals to serve on the Board of Directors and on the XMPP Council shall proceed as follows. First, the number of individuals to serve on each body shall be limited beforehand by the Members as specified in Section 4.4 and Section 8.1 of these Bylaws for the Board and Council, respectively. Second, the Members shall vote on the candidates standing for election in accordance with Section 3.9 of these Bylaws. Third, the individuals elected shall be those receiving the highest percentage of votes cast, up to the limit set by the Members and with the proviso that no individual receiving less than a majority of votes cast shall be elected. Fourth, in the case of a tie for the final remaining position, the final individual shall be chosen in accordance with the procedures defined in “RFC 3797: Publicly Verifiable Nominations Committee (NomCom) Random Selection” published by the Internet Engineering Task Force.
  383. Alex the 50% rule definetly can be an issue when we have a huge numer of applicants, then in theory none of them could get 50% of the votes
  384. krauq has left
  385. lorddavidiii has joined
  386. dwd Alex, Yes, but only if you restrict the number of votes. Otherwise the risk is more ties, but we have a solution for that.
  387. Zash Bylaws made for a larger organization than what we are now?
  388. SamWhited If it's approval voting which this seems to suggest you could get less than 50% no matter how many members there are
  389. SamWhited no matter how many positions, that is.
  390. ralphm Zash: I don't think the XSF was much bigger when founded
  391. dwd SamWhited, That is true.
  392. arc And we have saved basically the same size sense
  393. arc Since
  394. ralphm If we'd done the Council voting as we do for (re-)electing members, it would have been according to 3.13, I think.
  395. dwd As a concrete proposal, then: I motion we change the memberbot to handle Board/Council votes as a simple y/n for each candidate.
  396. krauq has joined
  397. APach has left
  398. APach has joined
  399. ralphm dwd: that's equivalent to what I wrote, right? In that case +1
  400. dwd ralphm, I think it is equivalent, yes.
  401. arc +1
  402. Seve +1
  403. dwd +1 from me as well.
  404. ralphm Motion carries.
  405. dwd FWIW, I cannot remember who raised this originally - I'll have to go look in the chatroom logs for this room.
  406. ralphm Now the remaining question is, do we need to re-do or re-evaluate the way these elections were done?
  407. Zash <hat:member>Anyone considered a nominating committee?</hat:member>
  408. Kev (And from the peanut gallery, seems sensible to just change memberbot)
  409. dwd ralphm, Board is unaffected. Council might have been affected.
  410. SamWhited For board no one received under 50%, for Council only I did (and I do not contest the results, because that would be stupid).
  411. ralphm SamWhited, hehe
  412. Kev Neither Council nor Board is affected.
  413. arc Years ago Memberbot required exactly five votes for both board and Council. I'm the one that pointed out that error, and we continued to run the ongoing vote and just corrected it for the next year
  414. Kev The only people with less than 50% vote were not in the top 5.
  415. APach has left
  416. APach has joined
  417. dwd Kev, Yes, but the ordering might have altered, I suppose. That would affect my seat most likely.
  418. SamWhited ahhh, that's fair.
  419. arc So I would propose that we just say that we will apply this going forward
  420. Kev dwd: I don't believe the limit on the number of votes per person is actually a conflict with the Bylaws, it just leads to a problem with 50% votes.
  421. wevifa has left
  422. ralphm I happy to keep the results as-is. If the membership disagrees, they have the ability to appeal.
  423. ralphm Note that memberbot did allow for having less than 5 yes votes
  424. Kev (I'm wrong, 3.9 says that what memberbot does is wrong, but I still agree with just changing memberbot and moving on)
  425. Kev (Or at least arguably says that)
  426. dwd I am forced to argue that we should actually re-do the Council vote, despite it really not being in my self-interest to do so.
  427. dwd ralphm, Want to propose a motion one way or the other?
  428. arc Dwd I would argue that that would break precident
  429. arc I already made a motion
  430. dwd arc, Oh, so you did.
  431. ralphm arc: indeed
  432. ralphm Let's vote on arc's motion
  433. Kev At this point, I'm inclined to agree with Sam's "Don't make work" :)
  434. ralphm +1
  435. Seve +1
  436. ralphm arc, dwd?
  437. ralphm (yes, you have to vote on your own motion)
  438. arc +1
  439. dwd Ugh. Redoing the Council election would be a lot of work, but I feel it is the correct thing to do, so -1.
  440. Seve > I happy to keep the results as-is. If the membership disagrees, they have the ability to appeal. It would be fair, dwd, but I also agree with ralphm, membership can appeal.
  441. Ge0rG dwd: can't you abstain due to conflict of interest? ;)
  442. dwd Ge0rG, If I were going to vote in favour, I would abstain for that reason.
  443. ralphm Noted. Let the record clearly show that Board recognises that the Board and Council election hasn't been done in accordance with the XSF Bylaws (for multiple years) and that Memberbot shall be adjusted to allow everyone to cast a yes/no vote for each candidate, instead of a maximum of 5 yes votes. If the membership disagrees they may appeal Board's decision to keep the results nonetheless, noting that Dave voted against.
  444. SamWhited wonders if dave just bit off more than he can chew with board *and* council and is trying to wiggle out of it and pass the burden onto Marvin (okay, sorry, I will stop interrupting the meeting and shut up now)
  445. ralphm SamWhited, you have the right to speak up during Board meetings.
  446. dwd SamWhited, Oh, no - I *want* to do both.
  447. SamWhited Yes, but one should probably avoid unnecessary jokes that don't contribute to the meeting :)
  448. ralphm With that:
  449. ralphm 4. AOB
  450. ralphm We're over time and I have fries waiting for me.
  451. arc Cold fries are dead fries, let's wrap
  452. Seve None here
  453. ralphm 5. Date of Next
  454. ralphm +1W
  455. ralphm 6. Close
  456. ralphm Thanks all!
  457. ralphm bangs gavel
  458. adiaholic has left
  459. Seve Thank you all! Have a good weekend :)
  460. adiaholic has joined
  461. NosoyHacker404 has joined
  462. gav has left
  463. Kev has left
  464. gav has joined
  465. krauq has left
  466. krauq has joined
  467. dwd And the minutes should be in your inboxes.
  468. NosoyHacker404 has left
  469. Daniel has left
  470. Daniel has joined
  471. NosoyHacker404 has joined
  472. lorddavidiii has left
  473. lorddavidiii has joined
  474. lovetox has left
  475. NosoyHacker404 has left
  476. chronosx88 has left
  477. chronosx88 has joined
  478. chronosx88 has left
  479. chronosx88 has joined
  480. Andrzej has left
  481. Andrzej has joined
  482. Andrzej has left
  483. Andrzej has joined
  484. lovetox has joined
  485. chronosx88 has left
  486. chronosx88 has joined
  487. raghavgururajan has left
  488. Andrzej has left
  489. Andrzej has joined
  490. krauq has left
  491. wevifa has joined
  492. krauq has joined
  493. wevifa has left
  494. wevifa has joined
  495. govanify has left
  496. govanify has joined
  497. Andrzej has left
  498. Wojtek has left
  499. werdan has joined
  500. eevvoor has left
  501. Arne has left
  502. Arne has joined
  503. Arne has left
  504. Arne has joined
  505. Andrzej has joined
  506. wevifa has left
  507. wevifa has joined
  508. goffi has left
  509. Arne has left
  510. Arne has joined
  511. wevifa has left
  512. Arne has left
  513. Arne has joined
  514. arc has left
  515. arc has joined
  516. Arne has left
  517. Arne has joined
  518. Arne has left
  519. Arne has joined
  520. wevifa has joined
  521. LNJ has left
  522. Arne has left
  523. Arne has joined
  524. Arne has left
  525. Arne has joined
  526. chronosx88 has left
  527. chronosx88 has joined
  528. werdan has left
  529. LNJ has joined
  530. Arne has left
  531. Andrzej has left
  532. Arne has joined
  533. edhelas has left
  534. Arne has left
  535. Arne has joined
  536. edhelas has joined
  537. Neustradamus has left
  538. Neustradamus has joined
  539. lovetox regarding that codepoint/byte discussion
  540. lovetox obviously bytes would be retarded solution for python
  541. lovetox but i recognize that the solution needs to fit all languages
  542. lovetox all talk only about the one direction, finding a reference with start and end point
  543. Zash I'd just go with Unicode characters. Should be good enough.
  544. lovetox but how woudl the other way around work in python
  545. lovetox i have a string i know i want to quote 5 - 20
  546. lovetox now i encode that to utf8
  547. DebXWoody has left
  548. lovetox how do i find out start and end in the utf8 bytes
  549. edhelas has left
  550. Zash Loop? The answer to all computer questions is loop.
  551. lovetox i could encode 0-4 and then get the length off that
  552. Zash start := str[0:5].encode("utf8").len end := str[0:20].encode("utf8").len ???
  553. lovetox yeah
  554. edhelas has joined
  555. edhelas has left
  556. Zash Counting UTF-8 sequences is easy if you have bytes too, using the magical construct called "loop".
  557. edhelas has joined
  558. Zash Was there prior art from elsewhere in the beginning of this thread?
  559. Zash (or, the previous thread rather)
  560. edhelas has left
  561. edhelas has joined
  562. Adi has left
  563. Andrzej has joined
  564. Andrzej has left
  565. Andrzej has joined
  566. Adi has joined
  567. chronosx88 has left
  568. chronosx88 has joined
  569. SamWhited If you don't care about efficiency you can encode it then decode it. I assume it has a unicode package or something where you can loop and do it quicker as Zash said too. Been a long time since I've done Python, but something like this if you had a range of 0-6 bytes: "ⅧⅧⅧ".encode()[0:6].decode()
  570. lovetox i dont see any point to make this as efficient as possible
  571. lovetox its not like i have to resolve 10.000 references per second
  572. lovetox of course i would want to operate on strings with python
  573. Zash If you select some text in your GUI framework, what data do you get?
  574. lovetox because its natural and easy and needs no calculations at all
  575. lovetox strings Zash
  576. lovetox but this is a matter of the bindings
  577. SamWhited Some people work in different environments than you do.
  578. SamWhited In GTK you can generally operate on bytes or on some string like concept that they have that I don't know how it works internally that lets you access "characters". If you do operations on that they're all cached to make them fast enough to be okay on the UI thread.
  579. Mikaela has left
  580. lovetox it totally depends on the bindings you use
  581. SamWhited Sure, bindings might do extra work to adapt that to whatever language you're using. But in GTK itself it works as I described.
  582. Zash *a*̈
  583. lovetox feels like a discussion with no correct solution
  584. lovetox some will have more work with one solution, others less
  585. lovetox and efficiency is no argument at all for me
  586. Zash Unicode code point array looks like the middle point to me.
  587. lovetox we decode and encode so much to put it on the stream or read it or display it in the GUI
  588. lovetox here and there a reference is a drop in the bucket
  589. SamWhited Another possible way of thinking about it (although I'm not yet sure if it matters or is helpful or not) is that a range in bytes corresponds to the XML where you have UTF-8. A range in Code points effectively corresponds to UTF-32, which is not what exists in the XML. I'd like the range to make sense in an XML document representing a session, not just after we've done some work at a higher level.
  590. Zash Something just gave me a headache. Good night.
  591. SamWhited Maybe that doesn't really matter, but semantically it makes more sense to me.
  592. lovetox i have to say i dont care also as long as its doable
  593. lovetox and works
  594. Zash There's one perfect solution, it's called "Bring back XHTML-IM"
  595. SamWhited Yah, that would be really nice<script>haxor.zash(123)</script>
  596. SamWhited <font background=white color=yellow>if only we had XHTML-IM</font>
  597. SamWhited :)
  598. Zash <span id="ref1">SamWhited</span>: Everyone else is using HTML (not XHTML) in JSON and get away with it. Surely we can too.
  599. Zash And surely in our XML environment we can get away with XHTML.
  600. SamWhited Are they getting away with it though, or is the web a mess and every random product is generally trivially easy to break?
  601. Zash Styles can be filtered out.
  602. SamWhited But jokes aside, I don't even want to use this for styling but generally feel we do need a way to select ranges of text
  603. lorddavidiii has left
  604. Andrzej has left
  605. Zash <span>
  606. Zash solved
  607. SamWhited I kind of hate the idea that you'd have to duplicate the body if you wanted fallback support, then you run into all the issues with clients putting different things in each body, but maybe you're right.
  608. Yagiza has left
  609. Zash There'll be problems regardless of method.
  610. SamWhited Indeed
  611. Zash People showing 393 into HTML-passtrough Markdown libraries tells me that entire approach didn't solve the "XHTML-IM is insecure" problem.
  612. Zash I don't think that's solvable, that's the web being .. the web.
  613. SamWhited Has anyone done that? I mean, yah, that would be bad
  614. Zash Yes.
  615. Zash Someone did that.
  616. SamWhited But I really didn't think people would do that because it obviously wouldn't be 393. You'd just end up with markdown and like 2 of the styles would be the same and the rest would be different
  617. SamWhited Link?
  618. Zash "This looks like Markdown. I'll use this markdown library. Done! Ship it!"
  619. Zash Converse.js plugin IIRC
  620. SamWhited cool, I'll go look. I've seen their implementation and it wasn't using a library, but maybe there was an older one
  621. SamWhited Thanks
  622. Zash Probably mentioned in the logs here or council@
  623. SamWhited I don't think I've ever been able to find anything in chat logs ever, but I'll look :) THe earliest commit I see linked on the repo was a custom implementation anyways
  624. krauq has left
  625. krauq has joined
  626. Zash Aha: https://github.com/igniterealtime/Pade/issues/79
  627. SamWhited That specifically says it's not XEP-0393, doesn't look like a mistaken implementation, looks like they just wanted markdown?
  628. Zash Note the edit
  629. SamWhited oh cool, I don't think I realized you could see history. "As much of XEP-0393 as possible" still makes me wonder, but yah, fair enough
  630. Zash Not sure if I've seen other cases of 393 vs markdown confusion, but I do remember that this one
  631. SamWhited "My use case will be markdown code pasted from GitHub or elsewhere" still sounds like they deliberately wanted markdown
  632. lovetox has left
  633. Zash The confusion was pointed out and a bunch of the comments have since been edited
  634. Zash Still. There was confusion at first.
  635. Zash Aaaaaaand then: https://github.com/markedjs/marked#usage
  636. SamWhited yah, you're right, found an edited comment where he specifically said that it was markdown but would *also* give XEP-0393 compatibility, looks like the author just messed with the history
  637. Zash Maybe 393 should have a red blinking comic sans warning :)
  638. Zash THIS IS NOT MARKDOWN!!!!!1eleven
  639. SamWhited Still, they noticed and it didn't get shipped, so 🤷
  640. chronosx88 has left
  641. chronosx88 has joined
  642. Zash How many others might have made that mistake without me or someone being around to panic about it?
  643. SamWhited I dunno, I just assume they'd at least try styling once and realize the styles didn't actually work, but maybe that's optimistic for "the web"
  644. wevifa has left
  645. matkor has left
  646. matkor has joined
  647. Andrzej has joined
  648. Alex has left
  649. Andrzej has left
  650. sonny has left
  651. chronosx88 has left
  652. sonny has joined
  653. chronosx88 has joined
  654. Andrzej has joined
  655. alex-a-soto has left
  656. alex-a-soto has joined
  657. Andrzej has left
  658. Andrzej has joined
  659. peetah has left
  660. peetah has joined
  661. andy has left
  662. Andrzej has left
  663. NosoyHacker404 has joined
  664. jcbrand has left
  665. Seve has left