SamWhitedNovember was when the announcement was sent out: https://web.archive.org/web/20021230183123/http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/ietf-announce/Current/msg21379.html
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SamWhitedDamn, you've nerd sniped me. It was before the drat anyways; here's a reference from Jan 2002: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/jdev/2002-January/069346.html
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SamWhitedSounds like it might have been an IETF term and "Jabber" was just one candidate protocol to be the IETFs "XMPP"
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SamWhitedOh no, definitely named within the Jabber community sometime before Jan 2002: https://web.archive.org/web/20020305041511/https://perl.jabber.org/logs/conference.jabber.org/foundation/2002-01-09.html
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ZashIETF had the IMPP and CMP(?) things
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ZashSo that February draft is the one mentioned in that jded post as for archival purposes
SamWhited> [13:32] <stpeter> ick, i hate XMPP :P
SamWhited:o
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Ge0rGWell, don't we all?
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ZashHahaha. There's a discussion about what to do about inactive projects in listings in that chat log.
dwdWell, we should come to a conclusion on that topic in another decade or two.
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Zash> [13:17] <Dave> Maybe we should have a "dead projects" section?
edhelasI didn't found any PHP PRECIS libraries unfortunately
SamWhitedoh cool, they used my package as an example and I think used my graphs with some modifications, that makes me feel good
SamWhitedoh I see, this is taken from the old SO Documentation site before that was shut down, so definitely my graphs. Cool!
ZashSO?
jonas’stackoverflow
SamWhitedSo I guess that "they" didn't so much "use my graphs" as "I wrote that" :)
jonas’heh
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flowhmm, CC BY-SA violation?
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SamWhitedIt's got a link to contributors at the bottom (and we're both on there). Took me a while to find.
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arcHappy Friday everyone
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ZashÄNTLIGEN
ralphmbangs gavel
ralphm0. Welcome
ralphmHi! Who do we have, and what's on your mind?
arcPresent
ZashWhat's this? Board meeting? On a Friday?
ralphmZash: new round, new changes
ralphmSeve, dwd, MattJ
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SeveHello
dwdHiya.
arcDwd I think that is your turn to do the minutes this week
ralphmIt seems we're at:
ralphm1. Minute taker
ralphm:-D
dwdOK.
ralphm2. Appointment of Officers
ralphmI sent out an e-mail to both Alex and Peter.
ralphmPeter responded with "Yes, of course!", so I motion we re-appoint him has Treasurer for the 2020/2021 term.
ralphm+1
Alexralphm, received no mail. can you send it again?
arc+1
AlexBut I will volunteer again
dwd+1
Seve+1
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Alexfound in SPAM 🙄
ralphm:-(
ralphmMotion carries. Thanks Peter!
ralphmI motion we appoint Alex as Secretary for the 2020/2021 term.
ralphm+1
dwd+1
Seve+1
ralphmarc?
arc+1
ralphmMotion carries. Thanks Alex!
ralphmdwd: please make that full names in the minutes
dwdYup.
ralphm3. Voting Process
ralphmThis item came up last week. Go!
dwdIt appears as though the bylaws description of how we vote doesn't entirely match the memberbot implementation. Which is correct, and what do we do about it?
ralphmFor Board/Council or Members?
Kev(FWIW from the peanut gallery, I feel quite strongly that the two options are doing what the Bylaws say, or updating the Bylaws, I don't think continuing to not follow them should be an option we consider)
dwdPossibly both, but certainly Board/Council was mentioned.
ralphmKev: definitely, with a strong lean towards doing what the Bylaws say
SamWhitedFrom the peanut gallery: I say the opposite: if it ain't broke don't fix it. Just ignore the bylaws and do what we're doing today unless an actual change is needed.
ralphmSamWhited, that's not how things work usually.
SamWhited¯\_(ツ)_/¯ who cares? I'm not trying to be silly, I really don't see the point of messing with it unless there's some actual reason to change things.
ralphmI am not interested in legal challenges, TBH
ZashWe have enough undocumented lore in the protocols.
SamWhitedWhy would there be a legal challenge?
SamWhitedAnyways, just my opinion; don't make more work for yourselves.
dwdRight, "fixing" the bylaws is easy enough.
ralphmI don't know, but this is not a book club
KevRalph: You mean 'not interested in' as in "don't care that there's the posibility of" or "don't wish to see"?
ralphmKev: the latter obviously
KevRalph: For the sake of clarity :)
ZashHaving the bylaws match reality is a good thing, regardless of which part(s) need to be changed for them to match.
ralphmMy point is that we are still a legal entity with rules and just ignoring them is not an option
dwdSamWhited, So the problem is that people noted that the Council, for example, wasn't voted in in the way that the Bylaws say.
ralphmOk, so let's discuss what we have and what we think it should be.
KevI think the sticking point is that currently we might see a Board or Council made up of individuals who aren't eligible to be on them, based on the number of votes they received.
dwdSamWhited, So someone who stood for, but didn't get into, the Council could complain. Nobody has, but still.
KevEvery member of Board and Council must have received a +1 from the majority of (voting) members.
dwdSo the bylaws appear to state that we select the people with the most votes, as long as they have more than 50% of the vote.
dwdWhereas the memberbot only allows people to vote for 5 people.
dwdIn principle, the bylaws allow a member to vote for all the candidates or none of them.
KevI'm not sure the bylaws suggest how voting has to happen, do they?
KevMerely how B/C must be selected based on the votes cast.
KevThey *imply* how it has to happen, for it to not then break in the face of many candidates.
ralphmSo to follow the bylaws, for Council we should've had the possibility of casting 7 votes explicitly
AlexIIRC the board was dedicing on how many seats there are for board and council. A long time ago it was 3, and then got increased to 5
dwdKev, I think the most obvious reading of the bylaws would lead to being able to vote more than 5 times.
Alexbut not sure where this is covered in the bylaws exactly
dwdAlex, IIRC, it is the members who set that limit not the Board.
ralphmThe Bylaws state that the membership decides the number of seats. I think we did that, long time ago.
Alexdwd, possible as well, we would need to research the old member mails
ralphmSection 3.13 Voting Procedure for Election of Board and Council. Election of individuals to serve on the Board of Directors and on the XMPP Council shall proceed as follows. First, the number of individuals to serve on each body shall be limited beforehand by the Members as specified in Section 4.4 and Section 8.1 of these Bylaws for the Board and Council, respectively. Second, the Members shall vote on the candidates standing for election in accordance with Section 3.9 of these Bylaws. Third, the individuals elected shall be those receiving the highest percentage of votes cast, up to the limit set by the Members and with the proviso that no individual receiving less than a majority of votes cast shall be elected. Fourth, in the case of a tie for the final remaining position, the final individual shall be chosen in accordance with the procedures defined in “RFC 3797: Publicly Verifiable Nominations Committee (NomCom) Random Selection” published by the Internet Engineering Task Force.
Alexthe 50% rule definetly can be an issue when we have a huge numer of applicants, then in theory none of them could get 50% of the votes
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dwdAlex, Yes, but only if you restrict the number of votes. Otherwise the risk is more ties, but we have a solution for that.
ZashBylaws made for a larger organization than what we are now?
SamWhitedIf it's approval voting which this seems to suggest you could get less than 50% no matter how many members there are
SamWhitedno matter how many positions, that is.
ralphmZash: I don't think the XSF was much bigger when founded
dwdSamWhited, That is true.
arcAnd we have saved basically the same size sense
arcSince
ralphmIf we'd done the Council voting as we do for (re-)electing members, it would have been according to 3.13, I think.
dwdAs a concrete proposal, then: I motion we change the memberbot to handle Board/Council votes as a simple y/n for each candidate.
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ralphmdwd: that's equivalent to what I wrote, right? In that case +1
dwdralphm, I think it is equivalent, yes.
arc+1
Seve+1
dwd+1 from me as well.
ralphmMotion carries.
dwdFWIW, I cannot remember who raised this originally - I'll have to go look in the chatroom logs for this room.
ralphmNow the remaining question is, do we need to re-do or re-evaluate the way these elections were done?
Zash<hat:member>Anyone considered a nominating committee?</hat:member>
Kev(And from the peanut gallery, seems sensible to just change memberbot)
dwdralphm, Board is unaffected. Council might have been affected.
SamWhitedFor board no one received under 50%, for Council only I did (and I do not contest the results, because that would be stupid).
ralphmSamWhited, hehe
KevNeither Council nor Board is affected.
arcYears ago Memberbot required exactly five votes for both board and Council. I'm the one that pointed out that error, and we continued to run the ongoing vote and just corrected it for the next year
KevThe only people with less than 50% vote were not in the top 5.
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dwdKev, Yes, but the ordering might have altered, I suppose. That would affect my seat most likely.
SamWhitedahhh, that's fair.
arcSo I would propose that we just say that we will apply this going forward
Kevdwd: I don't believe the limit on the number of votes per person is actually a conflict with the Bylaws, it just leads to a problem with 50% votes.
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ralphmI happy to keep the results as-is. If the membership disagrees, they have the ability to appeal.
ralphmNote that memberbot did allow for having less than 5 yes votes
Kev(I'm wrong, 3.9 says that what memberbot does is wrong, but I still agree with just changing memberbot and moving on)
Kev(Or at least arguably says that)
dwdI am forced to argue that we should actually re-do the Council vote, despite it really not being in my self-interest to do so.
dwdralphm, Want to propose a motion one way or the other?
arcDwd I would argue that that would break precident
arcI already made a motion
dwdarc, Oh, so you did.
ralphmarc: indeed
ralphmLet's vote on arc's motion
KevAt this point, I'm inclined to agree with Sam's "Don't make work" :)
ralphm+1
Seve+1
ralphmarc, dwd?
ralphm(yes, you have to vote on your own motion)
arc+1
dwdUgh. Redoing the Council election would be a lot of work, but I feel it is the correct thing to do, so -1.
Seve> I happy to keep the results as-is. If the membership disagrees, they have the ability to appeal.
It would be fair, dwd, but I also agree with ralphm, membership can appeal.
Ge0rGdwd: can't you abstain due to conflict of interest? ;)
dwdGe0rG, If I were going to vote in favour, I would abstain for that reason.
ralphmNoted. Let the record clearly show that Board recognises that the Board and Council election hasn't been done in accordance with the XSF Bylaws (for multiple years) and that Memberbot shall be adjusted to allow everyone to cast a yes/no vote for each candidate, instead of a maximum of 5 yes votes. If the membership disagrees they may appeal Board's decision to keep the results nonetheless, noting that Dave voted against.
SamWhitedwonders if dave just bit off more than he can chew with board *and* council and is trying to wiggle out of it and pass the burden onto Marvin (okay, sorry, I will stop interrupting the meeting and shut up now)
ralphmSamWhited, you have the right to speak up during Board meetings.
dwdSamWhited, Oh, no - I *want* to do both.
SamWhitedYes, but one should probably avoid unnecessary jokes that don't contribute to the meeting :)
ralphmWith that:
ralphm4. AOB
ralphmWe're over time and I have fries waiting for me.
arcCold fries are dead fries, let's wrap
SeveNone here
ralphm5. Date of Next
ralphm+1W
ralphm6. Close
ralphmThanks all!
ralphmbangs gavel
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SeveThank you all! Have a good weekend :)
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dwdAnd the minutes should be in your inboxes.
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lovetoxregarding that codepoint/byte discussion
lovetoxobviously bytes would be retarded solution for python
lovetoxbut i recognize that the solution needs to fit all languages
lovetoxall talk only about the one direction, finding a reference with start and end point
ZashI'd just go with Unicode characters. Should be good enough.
lovetoxbut how woudl the other way around work in python
lovetoxi have a string i know i want to quote 5 - 20
lovetoxnow i encode that to utf8
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lovetoxhow do i find out start and end in the utf8 bytes
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ZashLoop? The answer to all computer questions is loop.
lovetoxi could encode 0-4 and then get the length off that
Zashstart := str[0:5].encode("utf8").len
end := str[0:20].encode("utf8").len
???
lovetoxyeah
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ZashCounting UTF-8 sequences is easy if you have bytes too, using the magical construct called "loop".
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ZashWas there prior art from elsewhere in the beginning of this thread?
Zash(or, the previous thread rather)
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SamWhitedIf you don't care about efficiency you can encode it then decode it. I assume it has a unicode package or something where you can loop and do it quicker as Zash said too. Been a long time since I've done Python, but something like this if you had a range of 0-6 bytes: "ⅧⅧⅧ".encode()[0:6].decode()
lovetoxi dont see any point to make this as efficient as possible
lovetoxits not like i have to resolve 10.000 references per second
lovetoxof course i would want to operate on strings with python
ZashIf you select some text in your GUI framework, what data do you get?
lovetoxbecause its natural and easy and needs no calculations at all
lovetoxstrings Zash
lovetoxbut this is a matter of the bindings
SamWhitedSome people work in different environments than you do.
SamWhitedIn GTK you can generally operate on bytes or on some string like concept that they have that I don't know how it works internally that lets you access "characters". If you do operations on that they're all cached to make them fast enough to be okay on the UI thread.
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lovetoxit totally depends on the bindings you use
SamWhitedSure, bindings might do extra work to adapt that to whatever language you're using. But in GTK itself it works as I described.
Zash*a*̈
lovetoxfeels like a discussion with no correct solution
lovetoxsome will have more work with one solution, others less
lovetoxand efficiency is no argument at all for me
ZashUnicode code point array looks like the middle point to me.
lovetoxwe decode and encode so much to put it on the stream or read it or display it in the GUI
lovetoxhere and there a reference is a drop in the bucket
SamWhitedAnother possible way of thinking about it (although I'm not yet sure if it matters or is helpful or not) is that a range in bytes corresponds to the XML where you have UTF-8. A range in Code points effectively corresponds to UTF-32, which is not what exists in the XML. I'd like the range to make sense in an XML document representing a session, not just after we've done some work at a higher level.
ZashSomething just gave me a headache. Good night.
SamWhitedMaybe that doesn't really matter, but semantically it makes more sense to me.
lovetoxi have to say i dont care also as long as its doable
lovetoxand works
ZashThere's one perfect solution, it's called "Bring back XHTML-IM"
SamWhitedYah, that would be really nice<script>haxor.zash(123)</script>
SamWhited<font background=white color=yellow>if only we had XHTML-IM</font>
SamWhited:)
Zash<span id="ref1">SamWhited</span>: Everyone else is using HTML (not XHTML) in JSON and get away with it. Surely we can too.
ZashAnd surely in our XML environment we can get away with XHTML.
SamWhitedAre they getting away with it though, or is the web a mess and every random product is generally trivially easy to break?
ZashStyles can be filtered out.
SamWhitedBut jokes aside, I don't even want to use this for styling but generally feel we do need a way to select ranges of text
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Zash<span>
Zashsolved
SamWhitedI kind of hate the idea that you'd have to duplicate the body if you wanted fallback support, then you run into all the issues with clients putting different things in each body, but maybe you're right.
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ZashThere'll be problems regardless of method.
SamWhitedIndeed
ZashPeople showing 393 into HTML-passtrough Markdown libraries tells me that entire approach didn't solve the "XHTML-IM is insecure" problem.
ZashI don't think that's solvable, that's the web being .. the web.
SamWhitedHas anyone done that? I mean, yah, that would be bad
ZashYes.
ZashSomeone did that.
SamWhitedBut I really didn't think people would do that because it obviously wouldn't be 393. You'd just end up with markdown and like 2 of the styles would be the same and the rest would be different
SamWhitedLink?
Zash"This looks like Markdown. I'll use this markdown library. Done! Ship it!"
ZashConverse.js plugin IIRC
SamWhitedcool, I'll go look. I've seen their implementation and it wasn't using a library, but maybe there was an older one
SamWhitedThanks
ZashProbably mentioned in the logs here or council@
SamWhitedI don't think I've ever been able to find anything in chat logs ever, but I'll look :) THe earliest commit I see linked on the repo was a custom implementation anyways
SamWhitedyah, you're right, found an edited comment where he specifically said that it was markdown but would *also* give XEP-0393 compatibility, looks like the author just messed with the history
ZashMaybe 393 should have a red blinking comic sans warning :)
ZashTHIS IS NOT MARKDOWN!!!!!1eleven
SamWhitedStill, they noticed and it didn't get shipped, so 🤷
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ZashHow many others might have made that mistake without me or someone being around to panic about it?
SamWhitedI dunno, I just assume they'd at least try styling once and realize the styles didn't actually work, but maybe that's optimistic for "the web"