XSF Discussion - 2020-12-09

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  180. waqas The "Character counting in message bodies" thread on the Standards ML is mildly amusing, we haven't had one of these in a while.
  181. Kev I hope I helped with that :)
  182. waqas It's basically a "someone is wrong on the internet" thread
  183. waqas https://xkcd.com/386/
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  187. edhelas do we have somewhere a full list of forbidden characters for JIDs ?
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  190. Kev RFC 762
  191. Kev RFC 7622
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  194. jonas’ Kev, I liked your email :D
  195. jonas’ also, can someone point me at an XML library which really gives you the raw bytes on the wire and how it handles entities? :)
  196. jonas’ because if we’re going to count bytes on the wire, we obviously also have to count the bytes used for entities.
  197. jonas’ "have fun with *that*"
  198. Ge0rG I was very much interested in the IoT hot-path where you really need the body character counts, but jonas’ kind of already raised this question.
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  200. flow I think statements like these and "…much easier than writing 20 emails on this topic" are potentially harmful, as they could interpreted as an attempt to suppress discussion. I found the thread insightful (at least some parts of it).
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  202. jonas’ flow, ok, noted, thanks for the feedback
  203. jonas’ I am a bit annoyed by the thread because I had essentially the same discussion already a few years back when I brought this specification gap up in References.
  204. Kev As far as I can see, it should be codepoints.
  205. flow jonas’, I get that, but that is probably more an indication that we are not good in transforming those discussions into a specification
  206. flow Kev, nice try ;)
  207. mathieui (as long as I don’t have to transform my unicode codepoints into entities again to be able to use this XEP I will be happy with the result, so I’m staying out of that discussion)
  208. jonas’ flow, yeah, because nobody makes a final call
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  210. jonas’ mathieui, oh, why not? don’t you want to guess whether the sender used = instead of 'a' everywhere?!
  211. flow Kev, nice try ;) (or was that not an attempt to resurfcace that discussion here?)
  212. jonas’ mathieui, oh, why not? don’t you want to guess whether the sender used a instead of 'a' everywhere?!
  213. mathieui that would be fun
  214. Kev flow: I wasn't trying to start discussion, I was saying that to me the case is clearcut for codepoints.
  215. Ge0rG jonas’: but what if you want to highlight the "#"?
  216. Kev (Commenting as the References author)
  217. jonas’ Ge0rG, shush!
  218. jonas’ I should write an XML serialiser which creates the most expanded version possible of any character data
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  222. Ge0rG the recent MS Teams "important, spoofing" issue makes me want to stuff U+0000 into an xmpp message and see where it gets killed.
  223. Kev jonas': Take that, "nobody makes a final call" ;p
  224. jonas’ Ge0rG, libexpat and libxml2 throw errors at you when they encounter it on the input
  225. jonas’ so at least prosody should kill your stream
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  227. jonas’ not sure what ejabberd does
  228. waqas jonas’: I think wrapping each character in CDATA is the best you can do
  229. waqas No wait, empty CDATA sections are legal, so you can do a lot better
  230. jonas’ waqas, oh, that means infinite expansion… let us omit CDATA sections from considerations then :)
  231. waqas Ge0rG: \0 isn't a legal XML character. CDATA sections, entities, etc don't let you work with non-legal characters, they are more an alternate encoding, but work with the same characters.
  232. Ge0rG waqas: I know. But it wouldn't be the first time for illegal characters going places.
  233. Zash You know what doesn't have character counting problems? Embedded markers. Perhaps we could use some special characters to "mark up" sections that have some special meaning.
  234. waqas Ge0rG: You can probably target pseudo-XML parsers that some servers have, e.g., Tigase I think was pretty liberal
  235. Ge0rG Zash: yes, let's use the zero-width-space as an escape character, followed by an xml element defining the markup
  236. Zash Or we could use <> since those are special in xml
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  238. waqas I think counting bytes or code points is a mistake, we should instead count graphemes, as that corresponds to what is rendered and the user sees!
  239. Zash waqas: that position is taken already
  240. waqas oh no
  241. Ge0rG waqas: ITYM grapheme clusters.
  242. jonas’ let’s count rendered CSS pixels
  243. jonas’ (as opposed to device pixels)
  244. Zash jonas’: I was just about to type 'what about pixels'
  245. jonas’ ^5
  246. waqas We'll just need to include the font and font-size, etc used for rendering, and then we are all set
  247. Ge0rG how do you treat off-screen hidden text?
  248. waqas Or does that need to be configurable?
  249. jonas’ waqas, no, obviously that’s all available from context.
  250. jonas’ just like the wire encoding is
  251. Ge0rG https://www.getdigital.de/web/getdigital/gfx/products/__generated__resized/1100x1100/4883CSS-sucks-v2_4883_square.jpg
  252. waqas Yay for binary XML
  253. Zash Don't forget compression
  254. waqas Also accessibility, e.g., if the text isn't rendered but spoken
  255. Ge0rG you also need to reverse count characters in RTL languages
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  257. flow Kev, FYI the unicode spec seems to always talk about "code point(s)", not "codepoint(s)"
  258. flow not sure if this is a AE vs BE thing
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  261. Kev Just a Kev thing, probably.
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  263. Kev I'll fix it in a moment once I'm out of a meeting.
  264. Kev Done while still in a meeting.
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  267. flow who said one can't be producitve in meetings?
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  280. edhelas Ge0rG nice tshirt :D
  281. edhelas We could do something similar with XMPP
  282. edhelas something like
  283. edhelas <message xmlns="jabber:client" to="juliette@foo.com" type="chat" id="62470128-e587-493e-8592-d7bca532e28f"> <thread>6b3fc7be-0480-461b-8f25-0e7117f5b1d5</thread> <active xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/chatstates" /> <body>XMPP is not verbose</body> <request xmlns="urn:xmpp:receipts" /> <markable xmlns="urn:xmpp:chat-markers:0" /> <origin-id xmlns="urn:xmpp:sid:0" id="5ee0e98f-eb38-44ac-b698-19c621b7479d" /> </message>
  284. Zash Needs <delay> and <stanza-id>
  285. edhelas Yeah sorry :D You can also add the OMEMO stuff as well
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  287. Zash Also the somewhat redundant full JID in @from
  288. edhelas This will only be available on the XXL tshirts to be readable :p
  289. Zash And baby sized with <presence/> ?
  290. Kev "Couldn't send message: Slixmpp got into trouble." is probably good while voting, right?
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  292. Ge0rG Kev: do you contest the vote now?
  293. Kev I think something has gone quite wrong, as it just told me what my four votes were. After voting on five issues :)
  294. Kev I think it really didn't like that I've got two clients running.
  295. Ge0rG I have two clients running and never had any trouble
  296. Ge0rG maybe it's about *which* clients you are running?
  297. Kev Did you try starting voting on one, and finishing on the other :)
  298. Ge0rG I don't remember. But IIRC memberbot is doing evil resource locking things with the vots
  299. Ge0rG I don't remember. But IIRC memberbot is doing evil resource locking things with the votes
  300. Kev That's what it seemed, to me.
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  312. mathieui never had an issue either and I always run two clients (but do not switch in the middle of voting)
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  337. theTedd Zash, machine-readable compliance suite data: https://dpaste.org/dEaq/slim
  338. theTedd I should try to get the badge generator finished (complete with DOAP processing)
  339. Zash Oh, I also made a thing for generating almost exactly that
  340. theTedd lovely
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  343. theTedd there are some A|B choices in there
  344. theTedd I think it's just BOSH/WebSockets though
  345. Zash gui, tui?
  346. theTedd also that
  347. theTedd avatars isn't a requirement for text-only clients
  348. Zash https://cerdale.zash.se/upload/eQVYwXp3PqMC47-L/xep-0443.json
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  352. theTedd requirement != restriction
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  359. Zash requirements ≠ implementation ≠ deployment
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  500. emus Hi, I know this is a religious question (no troll): But when one wants to if a client runs on Unix... can I just say Linux? 😅️
  501. Zash "Do you mean *nix or UNIX®?"
  502. emus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix
  503. Zash > when one wants to if a accidentally a word?
  504. emus Okay, doesnt matter really
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  506. emus The XMPP Newsletter for November 2020 is out! This is the last newsletter for this year! Thanks to everyone contributing! Read about an important circumstance regarding certificates to all parties involved in XMPP! Also updates for several clients and servers! https://xmpp.org/2020/11/newsletter-11-november/
  507. Andrzej has joined
  508. wurstsalat argh, typo "comming year", my bad
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  511. emus 😩️ - no, really wurstsalat - you did a great job on the XEP section, you are excused!
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  515. Zash https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/850
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  521. wurstsalat thanks Zash !
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  529. Neustradamus emus: We are in December.
  530. Zash Neustradamus, oh hush
  531. Zash It's news from November
  532. Neustradamus Bad timing
  533. arc https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/track/real_time_communications/
  534. arc What're we doing with this?
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  536. Seve Neustradamus: let us know if you can read the future
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  538. arc Shh. He can.
  539. arc But he can only write about it in the perspective of a 16th century astrologer
  540. emus Neustradamus, we are happy for new contributors and reviewers to reduce time on drafting and reviewing.
  541. Zash Could just call it The Newsletter
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  545. Zash NeXtLetter.
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  551. Neustradamus emus: With new system, I can not contribute into... Badly.
  552. emus ^^ we have "signifcant growth" since this year (seeing email stats). I guess most subcribers are happy 😊️ and also from the personal feedback I receive
  553. Neustradamus Draft problem
  554. emus Why you cannot?
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  557. Zash emus: Hm, if it's published just before the end of $month, with a Call To Action™ at the end of "did we miss something from tomorrow? tell us in the comments/repliy to the tweet/whaever"...
  558. emus zash, I dont understand what you mean?
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  563. Zash Cover november-01 to 28, publish on 29, ask people to reply with the cool thing that wasn't in the newsletter in order to generate more noise. Not entirely serious.
  564. Zash and also make sure cool thing happens on the 29 that people can reply with.
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  566. Zash Anyways, don't listen to me, I can't into marketing.
  567. emus hehe. I personally think it wont really make a change. I introduced the two review phases to get things less pressure on the team and have more time to ensure quality and force everyone to get done in one night (we also dont have the ressources). I think many people read it rather like a summary of the month, or not as hard into the XMPP development as most here are. I think this request comes from a very different perspective than most readers.
  568. emus For me that is mostly a question of ressources. If I need to squash things together, I cannot do that usually in one evening alone
  569. emus and also I dont want to do this alone
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  572. wurstsalat > For me that is mostly a question of ressources. If I need to squash things together, I cannot do that usually in one evening alone +1 I'm happy with how it works at the moment
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  575. Neustradamus Problems in newsletter links, examples: - https://xmpp.org/2020/11/newsletter-11-november/ (December, 09, 2020) - https://xmpp.org/2020/10/newsletter-10-october/ (November, 05, 2020) - https://xmpp.org/2020/09/newsletter-09-september/ (October, 06, 2020) - https://xmpp.org/2020/08/newsletter-08-august/ (August, 08, 2020) - https://xmpp.org/2020/08/newsletter-06-august/ (August, 06, 2020) - https://xmpp.org/2020/07/newsletter-01-july/ (July, 01, 2020) - https://xmpp.org/2020/06/newsletter/ (June, 09, 2020) - https://xmpp.org/2020/05/newsletter/ (May, 07, 2020) - https://xmpp.org/2020/04/everyone-go-for-decentralisation-03-apr-2020 (April, 03, 2020) - https://xmpp.org/2020/02/newsletter-04-february/ (February, 04, 2020) - ... Link problems like https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/638
  576. Neustradamus Really time to solve problem.
  577. Neustradamus Really time to solve problems.
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  584. emus Yes, and I will go with what the contributors can manage currently
  585. emus neustradamus - what is your exact problem with this?
  586. emus I see the links, but what is the issue you have=
  587. emus ?
  588. Neustradamus Look links, date
  589. Neustradamus https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/638 it is not solved yet.
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  591. emus Okay, I see, but lets be honest I is too old to fix on that. but what is it with the other links?
  592. emus And even more imporant, what is preventing you from contributing to the Newsletter?
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  594. Zash Cool URLs don't change.
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  596. Neustradamus February: https://xmpp.org/2020/02/newsletter-04-february/ -> https://xmpp.org/2020/02/newsletter April: https://xmpp.org/2020/04/everyone-go-for-decentralisation-03-apr-2020 -> https://xmpp.org/2020/04/newsletter May: https://xmpp.org/2020/05/newsletter/ June: https://xmpp.org/2020/06/newsletter/ July: https://xmpp.org/2020/07/newsletter-01-july/ -> https://xmpp.org/2020/07/newsletter August Part 1: https://xmpp.org/2020/08/newsletter-06-august/ -> https://xmpp.org/2020/08/newsletter-1 August Part 2: https://xmpp.org/2020/08/newsletter-08-august/ -> https://xmpp.org/2020/08/newsletter-2 October: https://xmpp.org/2020/09/newsletter-09-september/ -> https://xmpp.org/2020/10/newsletter November: https://xmpp.org/2020/10/newsletter-10-october/ -> https://xmpp.org/2020/11/newsletter December: https://xmpp.org/2020/11/newsletter-11-november/ -> https://xmpp.org/2020/12/newsletter
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  599. emus Neustradamus, I dont see why we need to change the links now. I personally lag the knowledge for this. I can offer you the following, if you want to commit anything to the next release in February 2021 you join the MUC and if you write up a news you have you can post it there and we can commit that to the next draft. However, the PR your self should work, we always provide a direct link from now on. I see you already have a Github account. So that should work
  600. Neustradamus Do not forget that I have been the last Communication team member. I have contributed several years before the new draft system on GitHub which has a lot of problems (bad link names, bad publication dates) Harmonization needs to be done to solve all problems. The problem is not new and people keep... Strange.
  601. emus I am happy for support, but I cannot do that my self 🤷‍♂️️
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  603. Neustradamus In more when you click on the date of all publications: -> https://xmpp.org/blog.html#
  604. Neustradamus It is easy, create a PR with perfect name to all files.
  605. emus I dont see the problem with creating a PR right now? Anyway, Im out for today
  606. Neustradamus You can see: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/638 -> https://xmpp.org/2019/01/the-xmpp-newsletter-31-january-2018/ -> https://xmpp.org/2019/01/newsletter It will be remove the bad link problem "January 2018" in "January 2019"
  607. Neustradamus Thanks in advance.
  608. Neustradamus Example of Gajim, no problem: - https://gajim.org/post/2020-11-27-development-news-november/ - https://gajim.org/post/2020-10-28-development-news-october/ - https://gajim.org/post/2020-09-27-development-news-september/ - https://gajim.org/post/2020-08-30-development-news-august/ - https://gajim.org/post/2020-07-26-development-news-july/ - https://gajim.org/post/2020-06-28-development-news-june/ - https://gajim.org/post/2020-05-26-development-news-may/ - https://gajim.org/post/2020-04-28-development-news-april/ - https://gajim.org/post/2020-03-30-development-news-march/ - https://gajim.org/post/2020-02-26-development-news-february/ - https://gajim.org/post/2020-01-27-development-news-january/
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  620. deuill Thanks for working on the newsletter, it's genuinely something I look forward to every month.
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