XSF Discussion - 2020-12-15

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02:14:18 moparisthebest has anyone ran MUC over MIX over MUX yet? https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/mux.html (or at least made the joke)
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04:14:38 SamWhited This whole Go XML debacle has made me think of another reason to use bytes instead of codepoints in references: if we ever want to sign references in the future you can't take a hash of codepoints without reencoding. Probably not applicable to @mentions, but references likely have applications far beond that. Being able to just pass the indexes directly to a byte slice operation and get a sha out seems like good practice.
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07:22:45 Ge0rG Until you realize that signing a subset of a message is a recipe for disaster
07:26:43 jonas’ ok, I read that mattermost article, and I’m like wtf
07:26:56 jonas’ it makes no sense whatsoever
07:31:52 Ge0rG jonas’: there are also no examples in the CVEs.
07:32:38 Ge0rG I suppose that you can craft XML that will be parsed incorrectly or something
07:35:39 Ge0rG And apparently the validator will decode, re-encode, and compare the resulting strings
07:35:44 jonas’ they say it's in the roundtrips and somehow related to namespace prefixes
07:36:01 jonas’ and unfixable due to api
07:36:02 Ge0rG Or rather, the xml structure.
07:36:48 Ge0rG Yeah, that's not how you describe a vulnerability
07:37:36 jonas’ but at least it’s no RCE or something, so I don’t have to take down o.j.n
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07:40:37 Ge0rG When did you rewrite ojn in go?
07:41:39 jonas’ the probers always were go
07:43:41 jonas’ based an SamWhited’s nice low-level xmpp library
07:43:51 jonas’ was easier to use for such low level tasks than aioxmpp
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07:44:12 mdosch There are only low level xmpp libs in go…
07:48:37 Ge0rG But you can use them to extract byte streams!
07:49:16 Ge0rG Where are all the hard learned lessons about how (not) to hash xml content?
07:50:50 jonas’ in the xmlsec standard
07:50:54 jonas’ used by SAML
07:51:02 jonas’ so this reads dire for encoding/xml IMO
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07:55:43 Ge0rG there is only an xmlsec library. And it's written in C!
07:57:31 jonas’ Ge0rG, https://www.w3.org/TR/xmldsig-core/ https://www.w3.org/TR/xmlenc-core/
07:58:42 Ge0rG jonas’: ah thanks. Did you consider those when designing 0390?
07:58:53 jonas’ no
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12:39:55 edhelas a small question about 0045
12:40:01 edhelas what is the general purpose of muc#roomconfig_pubsub ?
12:42:27 mathieui I thought it could be for 0316 but that does not appear therein
12:47:04 dwd edhelas, I always assumed that was a half-baked idea that never went anywhere.
12:47:19 dwd edhelas, Back in the day, there was a lot of "Oh, we can have pubsub here".
12:47:48 edhelas Holger I see that the field is available trough the ejabberd MUC config, does it triggers some things in the backend or is it just pure metadata ?
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12:53:30 Holger edhelas: Just pure metadata.
12:53:31 SamWhited Ge0rG: this is *not* the same as the partial signing nonsense that XML-DSig does, however, I take your point, might as well sign the whole body and still not be able to figure out what the signature matches up to because codepoints and different normalization forms were used.
12:55:15 edhelas Holger ok thanks :)
12:56:01 edhelas it can kinda make sense in Movim this field, then you can link a Movim Community (Pubsub Atom node) to a MUC, but I need to figure out the UI to send the correct Pubsub URI
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12:59:55 SamWhited jonas’: I must admit, I had wondered about why you were using mellium when you make an XMPP library; glad it was useful :) I'd be really curious what the differences are that made it easier for you if you remember. I'd like to develop a higher level library on top of it at some point and it would be helpful to figure out exactly where that dividing line lies to have real first-hand experience where a higher level library wasn't enough.
13:00:13 jonas’ SamWhited, easy: aioxmpp does not have s2s support whatsoever.
13:00:22 SamWhited oh, hah, fair enough
13:00:33 jonas’ and it (intentionally) makes it hard to shoot yourself in the foot by messing with the lower layers of stream negotiation
13:00:38 SamWhited Mellium doesn't either yet really, but I've got a package on a branch somewhere that should make it a little easier
13:02:35 jonas’ well, it can do enough. I don’t need to go beyond stream features really :)
13:02:59 jonas’ SamWhited, the main reason though (because I could easily have hacked that into aioxmpp and also did that by now for other reasons) is that the infrasturcture is based on prometheus and prometheus is very golang
13:03:18 SamWhited Also makes sense; thanks.
13:03:39 SamWhited goes to remind himself what state the SASL-EXTERNAL/BIDI implementations were in and see if they can be merged
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14:29:41 wurstsalat Zash, just in case you didn’t know about Ook yet https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ook
14:37:51 Zash I knew about /that/ definition.
14:41:21 Ge0rG the other one is in the XEP
14:44:51 Zash I couldn't spot anything obviously disqualifying anyways. Maybe it's too dark to see up here.
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16:18:15 MattJ jonas’, I'm not sure I'm satisfied with the "it's like CORS" argument re. custom XEP-0363 headers
16:19:02 MattJ CORS is largely protecting against the kinds of issues that wouldn't really be applicable to most XMPP clients, while we allow the server to set Authorization which is a very restricted header as far as CORS is concerned
16:19:31 MattJ For web clients that do need to be careful, CORS will be there anyway, we don't need additional restrictions on our side
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16:27:53 jonas’ I wish I had found the thread from when this was added
16:28:57 jonas’ MattJ, practically, though, you could put a shim proxy in front of whatever cloud service to use to translate a blob in authorized into whatever you need
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16:30:50 SamWhited Then you have to pay for all that bandwidth. This is what we did for HipChat (not with HTTP upload, but basically the same thing) and it cost a *lot* more.
16:31:17 jonas’ right
16:31:43 SamWhited I mean, we had to do that anyways for auth reasons, so worth it, but I can imagine most services would just prefer to upload straight to <cloud provider>
16:32:34 jonas’ MattJ, I think your argument, if written out in more detail, would be a great addition to the current thread though
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16:46:14 Zash jonas’, https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-02-15?p=h#2018-02-15-a77a48f290b74a33
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16:46:42 jonas’ Zash, so it’s your fault!!k
16:47:00 Zash You were there!
16:47:02 Zash MattJ too
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16:47:43 MattJ Yes
16:47:55 MattJ But you are to blame for removal of X-* ;)
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16:50:04 Zash Can't let you have deprecated things!
16:52:45 SamWhited I'm with Zash; X- isn't actually a thing, adding it is just a weird bandaid that makes some services happy but not others. Doesn't seem worth special casing it.
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16:58:53 Zash https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6648
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17:34:14 Ge0rG HTTP is a horrible footgun. It was a huge error embedding it into our clean and nice well-structured protocol
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17:35:02 SamWhited Something something glass houses and stones
17:35:11 moparisthebest another group might say "Apple and Go can't even parse XML correctly why does XMPP use it"
17:35:43 Zash Let's throw glass Go pieces at Apple
17:35:44 SamWhited Literally no one can parse XML correctly; namespaces are a nightmare. Special casing attributes, but only sometimes, and also multiple ways to declare them, etc.
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17:36:41 Zash Nor can they parse HTML
17:36:44 Zash or anything
17:36:46 SamWhited And don't even get me started on anything like dsig (not relevant to us, thank goodness, we do this right ofr the most part I think) where things that aren't the actual bytes on the wire are hashed and you have a canonicalization mechanism to hopefully make signatures match)
17:37:05 Zash Since we can't into computers, let's just become farmers
17:37:37 eta compliance tests are pretty useful for this btw
17:37:47 eta like, if the people who write the spec also write tests
17:37:55 Ge0rG eta: compliance tests only test the positive case
17:38:03 Ge0rG then hackers test the other cases.
17:38:06 eta because I mean personally when implementing things I just bash stuff together until it works
17:38:11 SamWhited Not relying on exact parser output for security is also useful :) (and now it's time to complain about SAML)
17:38:12 eta Ge0rG: well you can test negative cases
17:38:25 Ge0rG eta: you *can*, but why *would* you?
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17:41:16 flow causing testing more cases is generally a good thing?
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17:43:03 eta yeah
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17:47:44 Ge0rG flow: testing is just unneeded work! it doesn't move the scrum tasks!
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17:59:38 marc SamWhited: regarding eIBR, any news about the things we discussed last time?
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18:47:39 SamWhited marc: what discussion was that, I don't recall?
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19:00:30 Alex hey guys, its member meeting time again
19:00:41 Alex bangs the gavel
19:01:09 Alex here is our Agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-12-15
19:01:17 Alex 1) Call for Quorum
19:01:21 adiaholic 😀
19:01:32 Alex as you can see 32 members voted via proxy, so we have a quorum
19:01:45 Alex 2) Items Subject to a Vote
19:02:11 Alex new and returning members, you can see the applications here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q4_2020
19:02:25 Alex 3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting
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19:02:48 Alex anyone here who has not voted yet and wants to do so now?
19:03:12 Zash Just had a chat with memberbot
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19:03:28 Alex 👍
19:04:22 Alex anyone else?
19:05:01 Alex okay
19:05:14 Alex will shutdown memberbot then and start working on the results
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19:09:28 Alex 4) Announcement of Voting Results
19:09:49 Alex when you reload the page you can see the results here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2020-12-15#Announcement_of_Voting_Results
19:10:05 Alex all reappliers and applicants are accepted. Conrats all
19:10:15 Alex 5) Any Other Business?
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19:10:27 adiaholic Thanks a lot!
19:11:32 Alex 6) Formal Adjournment
19:11:38 Alex I motion that we adjourn
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19:16:47 Alex bangs the gavel
19:16:50 Alex thanks everyone
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19:42:03 marc SamWhited: regarding feedback to the user based on the challenge's response
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19:45:34 SamWhited marc: oh, are you also zapb? I remember that; I just haven't prepared a new version yet.
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19:50:10 marc SamWhited: yep, okay
19:50:38 SamWhited Gotcha; sorry about that, I think I knew that but wasn't putting the names together for some reason.
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20:24:47 marc No worries
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