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marc
Is there a specification for client backups?
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Zash
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0227.html is the closest I can think of
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SamWhited
It seems like that would be very client specific
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marc
Thanks, that's a good starting point
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marc
SamWhited: no I think the most important parts could be generic
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Zash
You can always throw in a client-specific extension under a custom namespace
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SamWhited
Fair point; I can't imagine that working very well, but if we could make it work it would be neat. Maybe mandate that you preserve unknown elements on the next export or something so that it will grow forever, but if you go back to an old client you still have your previous client-specific bits.
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SamWhited
Or maybe most people always just stick to a single client and it's fine 99% of the time.
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marc
> You can always throw in a client-specific extension under a custom namespace Exactly
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marc
Maybe I find some time to write something down
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Zash
Missing a way to store PEP and MAM data (= local archive?) in there tho.
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marc
With a common backup format we could also achieve that we can move from one client software to another✎ -
marc
With a common backup format we could also achieve that we can migrate from one client software to another ✏
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Ge0rG
Or we could just store everything on the server and use a QR code of the login credentials to onboard the second client.
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Zash
Store the whole client in the server, use some kind of shared secret to access it!
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Ge0rG
Zash: using a document transmission protocol?
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Zash
That sounds appropriate
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marc
Ge0rG: not sure if trolling
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MattJ
Nobody ever is
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MattJ
FWIW I've been thinking about this recently, would love to see it solved
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MattJ
Also live migration between clients
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MattJ
Which can be done fairly easily once such a format is standardized
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lovetox
what data is there to migrate?
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lovetox
messages are in MAM, contacts are in roster
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lovetox
what is there else?
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Zash
Messages in local archive, expired from MAM. E2EE secrets. Other settings.
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Zash
Whatever is stored on the local machine that.✎ -
Zash
Whatever is stored on the local machine ✏
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MattJ
lovetox: recent messages are in MAM, client history may be more extensive
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MattJ
And with encryption MAM is useless to a new client anyway, without some migration/bootstrapping mechanism
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Zash
At least in case of e2ee with forward secrecy, like omemo.
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lovetox
yeah thats true
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lovetox
writing a XEP to exchange old messages should not be a big challenge
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marc
lovetox: true, but I would like to backup omemo keys and config as well
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SamWhited
I still want client-to-client MAM
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Zash
Just Do It
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lovetox
the idea about the signal protocol was that you dont have to manage your key
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lovetox
now backing it up, transfering it to other devices, and encrypting it in the process proabably
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lovetox
sounds a lot like pgp
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marc
Well, I just want to backup and restore my Gajim, Dino, whatever installation
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marc
And the omemo key is an essential part of it
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lovetox
thats not the same as migrating to another client
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marc
Migration to another client software is basically the same, no?
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lovetox
and i dont see why we would need to standardize how to backup a dino installation
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lovetox
no i dont think its the same
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lovetox
for backing up your software, there are a million solutions out there
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lovetox
for migrating to another client, there are 0 solutions out there
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marc
Well, not the installation but the local data
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marc
I think we can have both with a standardized exchange format
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marc
lovetox, sure, I can backup my .local/whatever/gajim folder and the .config/whatever/gajim folder but an export solution via the gui or a "gajim --export myaccount@example.com" command would be much easier for most users
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marc
I don't see why we should not use a client migration solution for backups as well
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lovetox
because it makes not much sense to migrate everything to another client
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marc
for example?
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MattJ
Just today someone migrated from Snikket on an old phone to a new phone... it was not as easy as it could be, that's for sure
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lovetox
everything except messages :D
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MattJ
And that is with a proprietary backup format already
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lovetox
really everything else is just much much work for very little gain
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marc
well, I would like to migrate my pictures etc. as well
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lovetox
its not daily business that people migrate to other clients
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lovetox
a xmpp client is not your picture archive
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marc
tell that an xmpp user...
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marc
Oh, you can migrate from Gajim to Dino but everything is lost...
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marc
or "sure you can, but you have only your messages but all pictures are gone"
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marc
hm?
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marc
That's bad ux
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marc
IMO, of course