XSF Discussion - 2020-12-27


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  346. marc

    Is there a specification for client backups?

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  348. Zash

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0227.html is the closest I can think of

  349. SamWhited

    It seems like that would be very client specific

  350. marc

    Thanks, that's a good starting point

  351. marc

    SamWhited: no I think the most important parts could be generic

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  353. Zash

    You can always throw in a client-specific extension under a custom namespace

  354. SamWhited

    Fair point; I can't imagine that working very well, but if we could make it work it would be neat. Maybe mandate that you preserve unknown elements on the next export or something so that it will grow forever, but if you go back to an old client you still have your previous client-specific bits.

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  357. SamWhited

    Or maybe most people always just stick to a single client and it's fine 99% of the time.

  358. marc

    > You can always throw in a client-specific extension under a custom namespace Exactly

  359. marc

    Maybe I find some time to write something down

  360. Zash

    Missing a way to store PEP and MAM data (= local archive?) in there tho.

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  362. marc

    With a common backup format we could also achieve that we can move from one client software to another

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  366. marc

    With a common backup format we could also achieve that we can migrate from one client software to another

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  438. Ge0rG

    Or we could just store everything on the server and use a QR code of the login credentials to onboard the second client.

  439. Zash

    Store the whole client in the server, use some kind of shared secret to access it!

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  448. Ge0rG

    Zash: using a document transmission protocol?

  449. Zash

    That sounds appropriate

  450. marc

    Ge0rG: not sure if trolling

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  455. MattJ

    Nobody ever is

  456. MattJ

    FWIW I've been thinking about this recently, would love to see it solved

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  458. MattJ

    Also live migration between clients

  459. MattJ

    Which can be done fairly easily once such a format is standardized

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  481. lovetox

    what data is there to migrate?

  482. lovetox

    messages are in MAM, contacts are in roster

  483. lovetox

    what is there else?

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  487. Zash

    Messages in local archive, expired from MAM. E2EE secrets. Other settings.

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  491. Zash

    Whatever is stored on the local machine that.

  492. Zash

    Whatever is stored on the local machine

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  502. MattJ

    lovetox: recent messages are in MAM, client history may be more extensive

  503. MattJ

    And with encryption MAM is useless to a new client anyway, without some migration/bootstrapping mechanism

  504. Zash

    At least in case of e2ee with forward secrecy, like omemo.

  505. lovetox

    yeah thats true

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  508. lovetox

    writing a XEP to exchange old messages should not be a big challenge

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  545. marc

    lovetox: true, but I would like to backup omemo keys and config as well

  546. SamWhited

    I still want client-to-client MAM

  547. Zash

    Just Do It

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  549. lovetox

    the idea about the signal protocol was that you dont have to manage your key

  550. lovetox

    now backing it up, transfering it to other devices, and encrypting it in the process proabably

  551. lovetox

    sounds a lot like pgp

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  553. marc

    Well, I just want to backup and restore my Gajim, Dino, whatever installation

  554. marc

    And the omemo key is an essential part of it

  555. lovetox

    thats not the same as migrating to another client

  556. marc

    Migration to another client software is basically the same, no?

  557. lovetox

    and i dont see why we would need to standardize how to backup a dino installation

  558. lovetox

    no i dont think its the same

  559. lovetox

    for backing up your software, there are a million solutions out there

  560. lovetox

    for migrating to another client, there are 0 solutions out there

  561. marc

    Well, not the installation but the local data

  562. marc

    I think we can have both with a standardized exchange format

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  565. marc

    lovetox, sure, I can backup my .local/whatever/gajim folder and the .config/whatever/gajim folder but an export solution via the gui or a "gajim --export myaccount@example.com" command would be much easier for most users

  566. marc

    I don't see why we should not use a client migration solution for backups as well

  567. lovetox

    because it makes not much sense to migrate everything to another client

  568. marc

    for example?

  569. MattJ

    Just today someone migrated from Snikket on an old phone to a new phone... it was not as easy as it could be, that's for sure

  570. lovetox

    everything except messages :D

  571. MattJ

    And that is with a proprietary backup format already

  572. lovetox

    really everything else is just much much work for very little gain

  573. marc

    well, I would like to migrate my pictures etc. as well

  574. lovetox

    its not daily business that people migrate to other clients

  575. lovetox

    a xmpp client is not your picture archive

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  577. marc

    tell that an xmpp user...

  578. marc

    Oh, you can migrate from Gajim to Dino but everything is lost...

  579. marc

    or "sure you can, but you have only your messages but all pictures are gone"

  580. marc

    hm?

  581. marc

    That's bad ux

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  583. marc

    IMO, of course

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