XSF Discussion - 2020-12-27

Is there a specification for client backups?

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0227.html is the closest I can think of

It seems like that would be very client specific

Thanks, that's a good starting point

SamWhited: no I think the most important parts could be generic

You can always throw in a client-specific extension under a custom namespace

Fair point; I can't imagine that working very well, but if we could make it work it would be neat. Maybe mandate that you preserve unknown elements on the next export or something so that it will grow forever, but if you go back to an old client you still have your previous client-specific bits.

Or maybe most people always just stick to a single client and it's fine 99% of the time.

> You can always throw in a client-specific extension under a custom namespace Exactly

Maybe I find some time to write something down

Missing a way to store PEP and MAM data (= local archive?) in there tho.

With a common backup format we could also achieve that we can migrate from one client software to another ✏

Or we could just store everything on the server and use a QR code of the login credentials to onboard the second client.

Store the whole client in the server, use some kind of shared secret to access it!

Zash: using a document transmission protocol?

That sounds appropriate

Ge0rG: not sure if trolling

Nobody ever is

FWIW I've been thinking about this recently, would love to see it solved

Also live migration between clients

Which can be done fairly easily once such a format is standardized

what data is there to migrate?

messages are in MAM, contacts are in roster

what is there else?

Messages in local archive, expired from MAM. E2EE secrets. Other settings.

Whatever is stored on the local machine ✏

lovetox: recent messages are in MAM, client history may be more extensive

And with encryption MAM is useless to a new client anyway, without some migration/bootstrapping mechanism

At least in case of e2ee with forward secrecy, like omemo.

yeah thats true

writing a XEP to exchange old messages should not be a big challenge

lovetox: true, but I would like to backup omemo keys and config as well

I still want client-to-client MAM

Just Do It

the idea about the signal protocol was that you dont have to manage your key

now backing it up, transfering it to other devices, and encrypting it in the process proabably

sounds a lot like pgp

Well, I just want to backup and restore my Gajim, Dino, whatever installation

And the omemo key is an essential part of it

thats not the same as migrating to another client

Migration to another client software is basically the same, no?

and i dont see why we would need to standardize how to backup a dino installation

no i dont think its the same

for backing up your software, there are a million solutions out there

for migrating to another client, there are 0 solutions out there

Well, not the installation but the local data

I think we can have both with a standardized exchange format

lovetox, sure, I can backup my .local/whatever/gajim folder and the .config/whatever/gajim folder but an export solution via the gui or a "gajim --export myaccount@example.com" command would be much easier for most users

I don't see why we should not use a client migration solution for backups as well

because it makes not much sense to migrate everything to another client

for example?

Just today someone migrated from Snikket on an old phone to a new phone... it was not as easy as it could be, that's for sure

everything except messages :D

And that is with a proprietary backup format already

really everything else is just much much work for very little gain

well, I would like to migrate my pictures etc. as well

its not daily business that people migrate to other clients

a xmpp client is not your picture archive

tell that an xmpp user...

Oh, you can migrate from Gajim to Dino but everything is lost...

or "sure you can, but you have only your messages but all pictures are gone"

hm?

That's bad ux

IMO, of course