XSF Discussion - 2020-12-27


  1. marc

    Is there a specification for client backups?

  2. Zash

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0227.html is the closest I can think of

  3. SamWhited

    It seems like that would be very client specific

  4. marc

    Thanks, that's a good starting point

  5. marc

    SamWhited: no I think the most important parts could be generic

  6. Zash

    You can always throw in a client-specific extension under a custom namespace

  7. SamWhited

    Fair point; I can't imagine that working very well, but if we could make it work it would be neat. Maybe mandate that you preserve unknown elements on the next export or something so that it will grow forever, but if you go back to an old client you still have your previous client-specific bits.

  8. SamWhited

    Or maybe most people always just stick to a single client and it's fine 99% of the time.

  9. marc

    > You can always throw in a client-specific extension under a custom namespace Exactly

  10. marc

    Maybe I find some time to write something down

  11. Zash

    Missing a way to store PEP and MAM data (= local archive?) in there tho.

  12. marc

    With a common backup format we could also achieve that we can move from one client software to another

  13. marc

    With a common backup format we could also achieve that we can migrate from one client software to another

  14. Ge0rG

    Or we could just store everything on the server and use a QR code of the login credentials to onboard the second client.

  15. Zash

    Store the whole client in the server, use some kind of shared secret to access it!

  16. Ge0rG

    Zash: using a document transmission protocol?

  17. Zash

    That sounds appropriate

  18. marc

    Ge0rG: not sure if trolling

  19. MattJ

    Nobody ever is

  20. MattJ

    FWIW I've been thinking about this recently, would love to see it solved

  21. MattJ

    Also live migration between clients

  22. MattJ

    Which can be done fairly easily once such a format is standardized

  23. lovetox

    what data is there to migrate?

  24. lovetox

    messages are in MAM, contacts are in roster

  25. lovetox

    what is there else?

  26. Zash

    Messages in local archive, expired from MAM. E2EE secrets. Other settings.

  27. Zash

    Whatever is stored on the local machine that.

  28. Zash

    Whatever is stored on the local machine

  29. MattJ

    lovetox: recent messages are in MAM, client history may be more extensive

  30. MattJ

    And with encryption MAM is useless to a new client anyway, without some migration/bootstrapping mechanism

  31. Zash

    At least in case of e2ee with forward secrecy, like omemo.

  32. lovetox

    yeah thats true

  33. lovetox

    writing a XEP to exchange old messages should not be a big challenge

  34. marc

    lovetox: true, but I would like to backup omemo keys and config as well

  35. SamWhited

    I still want client-to-client MAM

  36. Zash

    Just Do It

  37. lovetox

    the idea about the signal protocol was that you dont have to manage your key

  38. lovetox

    now backing it up, transfering it to other devices, and encrypting it in the process proabably

  39. lovetox

    sounds a lot like pgp

  40. marc

    Well, I just want to backup and restore my Gajim, Dino, whatever installation

  41. marc

    And the omemo key is an essential part of it

  42. lovetox

    thats not the same as migrating to another client

  43. marc

    Migration to another client software is basically the same, no?

  44. lovetox

    and i dont see why we would need to standardize how to backup a dino installation

  45. lovetox

    no i dont think its the same

  46. lovetox

    for backing up your software, there are a million solutions out there

  47. lovetox

    for migrating to another client, there are 0 solutions out there

  48. marc

    Well, not the installation but the local data

  49. marc

    I think we can have both with a standardized exchange format

  50. marc

    lovetox, sure, I can backup my .local/whatever/gajim folder and the .config/whatever/gajim folder but an export solution via the gui or a "gajim --export myaccount@example.com" command would be much easier for most users

  51. marc

    I don't see why we should not use a client migration solution for backups as well

  52. lovetox

    because it makes not much sense to migrate everything to another client

  53. marc

    for example?

  54. MattJ

    Just today someone migrated from Snikket on an old phone to a new phone... it was not as easy as it could be, that's for sure

  55. lovetox

    everything except messages :D

  56. MattJ

    And that is with a proprietary backup format already

  57. lovetox

    really everything else is just much much work for very little gain

  58. marc

    well, I would like to migrate my pictures etc. as well

  59. lovetox

    its not daily business that people migrate to other clients

  60. lovetox

    a xmpp client is not your picture archive

  61. marc

    tell that an xmpp user...

  62. marc

    Oh, you can migrate from Gajim to Dino but everything is lost...

  63. marc

    or "sure you can, but you have only your messages but all pictures are gone"

  64. marc

    hm?

  65. marc

    That's bad ux

  66. marc

    IMO, of course