XSF Discussion - 2021-01-04

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  187. flow MattJ, thanks for the reminder
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  390. vanitasvitae https://matrix.org/blog/2021/01/04/taking-fosdem-online-via-matrix
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  392. Zash I suppose it's time to start poking the SCAM team about FOSDEM?
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  408. Ge0rG Zash: sounds like it's a month late
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  416. Daniel Probably more interesting to poke scam about the summit
  417. Daniel I personally don't care much for fosdem. But some sort of summit would be interesting
  418. Zash 👍️
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  629. Zash ``` compliancer$ ./compliance xep-0443.xml ~/src/dino/dino.doap {"name":"Dino","type":"client","badges":{"core":"advanced"}} ``` Web enough for ya?
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  646. marc https://share.zapb.de/0e13a6d6e89e55a5708adf142c700a6b2c084b73/iXdwnPOhiCvOnS55xjQRAga0qWwAPURI4yRk1izL/client_data_exchange_poc.webm
  647. marc Client data exchange PoC from Gajim to Dino
  648. marc Any thoughts on that? Any chance we can agree on some format and deploy such a feature?
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  656. Zash What does that mean? What am I looking at?
  657. Zash Oh, the import/export discussed a while back?
  658. moparisthebest probably just get a couple client devs to agree and go for it
  659. marc Zash, ye
  660. marc yes
  661. Zash The XML police would like you to either update the PIE XEP or namespace your new stuff ;)
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  666. moparisthebest marc, conversations has a backup format https://github.com/iNPUTmice/ceb2txt
  667. marc moparisthebest, it's actually an exchange format between client which can also be used as backup
  668. marc +s
  669. moparisthebest probably the same thing I guess
  670. marc moparisthebest, no, conversations just dumps its sqlite db afaik
  671. marc you cannot import this data in dino or whatever client
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  674. moparisthebest at least not without writing code
  675. marc moparisthebest, ;)
  676. marc moparisthebest, you get the idea I guess ;)
  677. marc Zash, it is namespaced?
  678. marc even though this is no necessary at the moment ;D
  679. Zash marc, I mean in the pedantic sense that your new stuff isn't defined by the existing XEP
  680. Zash My xmlnsense itches
  681. marc Zash, ah, that's what you mean :D
  682. Zash marc, and since I'm only complaining about such pedantic things, you should read into it that it seems fine so far ;)
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  687. Zash Surveying client devs might be a sensible thing. And post to standards.
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  689. SamWhited It would be nice if you could shove whatever this is into private XML or somewhere and use it to setup clients on a new laptop or wherever as well as export to move between clients.
  690. SamWhited So you'd download it on first login and now all your settings are migrated.
  691. SamWhited Then again, maybe most of this is stuff that would already be on the server so it wouldn't matter.
  692. moparisthebest and to be clear I think it's a good idea too, I was just pointing out an existing single-client impl, and that "backup" and "export that I can import into another client" are the same thing :)
  693. marc SamWhited, the log might contain senstive data
  694. marc think of E2EE :D
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  698. SamWhited You could leave those bits out of the server version
  699. Zash Relatedly, XEP-0227 ought to be extended with MAM support
  700. SamWhited Or encrypt the whole thing before saving it
  701. Zash Encrypt the world and save it on the server.
  702. moparisthebest if it's not going to restore e2e messages then mam already has that use-case covered?
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  705. moparisthebest just pull a whatsface and upload all the e2e messages in plaintext to apple and google clouds
  706. SamWhited Yah, I don't fully understand what this is actually migrating so I'll be curious to see the eventual spec
  707. marc yes, when everything is in mam it hasn't no real advantage
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  710. SamWhited Is that all this is then? History?
  711. marc SamWhited, history / logs, downloaded data and client settings where applicable
  712. SamWhited What are logs in this context?
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  716. marc Messages (already decrypted in E2EE context)
  717. marc Basically everything stored on a device
  718. marc In the end it should also be possible to migrate the omemo stuff (private keys)
  719. moparisthebest marc, tricky re: omemo though, you can only copy/reuse the old keys if you pinky promise never to use the old client again, how are you going to handle that?
  720. SamWhited Client settings seems like it would be very client specific and couldn't be defined easily, but either way it seems more useful to upload those to the server and fetch them the first time you log in
  721. eta this sounds like something equivalent to Matrix's encrypted key backup
  722. SamWhited E2EE encrypted messages and downloaded data could potentially be nice to transfer directly between clients without redownloading tons of huge images though
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  725. eta which lets you stash versions of the OMEMO ratchet server-side encrypted by a passphrase
  726. Zash There's probably a number of common settings that might make sense if they can be restored into more than the originating clients.
  727. SamWhited I wouldn't transfer the keys, a new client is a new identity, but just having message history is nice.
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  729. moparisthebest maybe the "export" has a "delete my omemo keys from this client" flag
  730. marc Zash, +1
  731. marc moparisthebest, the scenario is where you move let's say from conversations to siskin
  732. marc Because you don't like android anymore
  733. marc In this case you won't never use the old device
  734. moparisthebest right, in that situation you *can* move and keep your old keys, but if you get a new laptop and intend to use gajim on it and your old one...
  735. moparisthebest sounds tricky UI-wise for users though
  736. marc moparisthebest, remove the account from the device after "export with omemo"
  737. SamWhited I feel like people are going to click taht button, say "wait, it says my keys have changed!" and then re-import the backup on both devices and still have screwed up encryption
  738. moparisthebest or, trying dino side-by-side gajim on the same machine
  739. marc well, you don't have to use / implement this feature
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  741. marc but it makes sense in the backup case
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  743. marc and device migration
  744. marc which is quite common for mobile devices
  745. moparisthebest I like it, I'd use it, I'm just pointing out hard problems that need solved :/
  746. marc sure, you have to warn the user or make it an export option or don't implement it at all
  747. marc But it could be specified IMO
  748. moparisthebest you probably need to warn them on import (too?)
  749. marc As optional or whatever
  750. moparisthebest as SamWhited said, they could export once, and import the same backup on 2 different devices
  751. SamWhited Just because something can be specified doesn't make it a good idea :) I'm not sure if this would be or not
  752. marc SamWhited, well, for backups that's essential
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  754. marc Today users make backups my copying the .local directory which can be used multiple times as well, so what?
  755. SamWhited I'm not sure that it is; new devices are a new identity even if you backup everything else
  756. marc Or no backups and their keys change every time ôO
  757. SamWhited Users *can* do that, again, I'm not sure that it's a good idea. I'm not sure that it's not a good idea either, it just needs to be thought very carefully about and not just done "because we can" IMO
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  759. marc Yes, that needs to be discussed
  760. marc larma, lovetox, Daniel, Ge0rG: any chance we can deploy something like that in all (tm) clients? What are your thoughts?
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  785. dwd Having only skimmed the last messages, this all looks like the kind of idea where 90% of the specification would involve Security Considerations.
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  787. dwd Exporting and reimporting ratchet state and client init keys (prekeys?) all feels like the kind of thing where "HERE BE DRAGONS" would very much apply.
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  790. moparisthebest but if you avoid that and leave the transfer out, it's just a backup format that multiple clients happen to implement
  791. SamWhited moparisthebest: you still get your E2EE messages in your history, you just send/receive messages as a new identity
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  793. dwd moparisthebest, What can you gain from this that you can't gain more safely by having a longer-term, more protected (possibly hardware or offline) identity key which signs the client's identity key?
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  796. moparisthebest sorry I mean, I think the key *should* be left out, and that "just a backup format that multiple clients happen to implement" is a good thing
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  799. SamWhited oh, right.
  800. SamWhited If we want keys to be easier to trust maybe it makes sense to have a way to trust keys on your old client when you add a new one and have that trust conveyed to your contacts.
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  802. SamWhited Presumably that would exist in the OMEMO spec somewhere, although I haven't read any of the more recent versions so maybe such a thing exists
  803. Zash Any of y'all following MLS?
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  819. moparisthebest yea I think, not sure if it has a name, some type of "transitive key trust" is probably the best solution and negates the need to ever transfer keys
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  824. moparisthebest but that surely is full of all the dragons dwd mentioned and more :/
  825. SamWhited indeed
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  892. Ge0rG If only we had one key per user, not one per ratchet click.
  893. Ge0rG PFS for IM is like attaching a sled to a stinger rocket for some fun
  894. Ge0rG marc: a common backup format would require all clients to use (roughly) the same database schema, which is not really achievable after the fact
  895. Ge0rG You could probably define a minimum viable format for plaintext message logs, but good luck beyond tust
  896. Ge0rG You could probably define a minimum viable format for plaintext message logs, but good luck beyond that
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  898. marc Ge0rG, can you give an example were do you see problems?
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  902. marc +h
  903. Ge0rG marc: most clients have a concept of a chat list, where details about a conversation are stored, like last read message etc
  904. Ge0rG Those details won't be portable I suppose.
  905. marc Ge0rG, yes, and if you would like to send typing indicator etc. why not?
  906. Ge0rG Exporting all the image files is non trivial as well. You'd need some mapping of file URL to Chat message to local files
  907. marc Ge0rG, I already use fsf for that
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  909. marc the poc I posted above already exports/imports shared images
  910. Ge0rG marc: yaxim will process each incoming message in a way that doesn't allow to recreate the original xml.
  911. marc Ge0rG, not the original but an xml that might be sufficent?
  912. Ge0rG Maybe yes. As I said, the message history is the easy part.
  913. Ge0rG Except that I don't have three different message ID columns, so deduplication with a MAM archive is going to fail probably
  914. marc Didn't look at the yaxim db but dino and gajim look quite good
  915. Ge0rG Also xml is a horrible database format
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  918. Ge0rG Well, I could probably hijack the message sending and receiving functions to generate and consume xml files.
  919. Ge0rG But what do you do with 0184 receipts?
  920. Ge0rG In yaxim it's just a bit on the message row
  921. Ge0rG Do I need to generate a fake receipt message to store along the original, with sender and receiver JID swapped?
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  923. marc I would say yes atm
  924. marc LMC already works
  925. Ge0rG LMC will just update the message row, I don't keep full history
  926. marc Ge0rG, xml because if it's not xml everybody says "i don't like [insert format] because i use [insert other format]"
  927. marc And you already have the parser for XML
  928. eevvoor Are there clients who use the subject header of an XMPP message?
  929. Ge0rG eevvoor: you can send type=normal messages that are like emails
  930. Ge0rG marc: how do you store a gigabyte of images in xml?
  931. marc Ge0rG, it's only xml for the messages etc., of course
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  935. marc xml + raw files and maybe compressed with [insert an archive format here]
  936. eevvoor Ge0rG, and which cleints do show them differently than a usual chat message?
  937. Ge0rG Do you backup avatars? Disco caches? Pep nodes?
  938. Ge0rG eevvoor: maybe pidgin and Gajim?
  939. marc Ge0rG, atm it's not about "is every client prepared for all backup feature corner cases" but "are there engouh client (devs) that would integrate it"
  940. eevvoor thx Ge0rG
  941. Ge0rG marc: what's the document format? One xml document with a <messages> element containing a list of all your conversations as regular xmpp message stanzas? One list per contact?
  942. marc Ge0rG, atm, it's one big file but that won't work for large data sets. maybe XInclude or multiple files, one per contact or so
  943. marc xep-0227 uses xinclude, for example
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  945. Ge0rG marc: I'm using smack as the xml stream processing middleware. I have no idea how I'd plug a file into it.
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  947. Ge0rG I'm sure xinclude is a security nightmare.
  948. marc Ge0rG, yes, I thought the same :D
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  950. Ge0rG I still have nightmares from reading the xmlsig security analysis
  951. marc Ge0rG, I don't know smack very well, maybe there is a way to feed an external xml stream
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  955. Ge0rG Maybe
  956. Ge0rG Also what's fsf?
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  978. SamWhited eevvoor: mcabber displays it if it's set
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  984. eevvoor SamWhited, that is cool. Even a CLI client.And can I also send it with mcabber?
  985. eevvoor Is there a client table which lists this and other feature?
  986. eevvoor Is there a client table which lists this and other features?
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  992. SamWhited eevvoor: yes, you can set it when sending messages in mcabber using a command
  993. eevvoor perfect
  994. Link Mauve eevvoor, not for this (as it is part of the RFC), but with the granularity of XEPs you now have this: https://linkmauve.fr/extensions/
  995. Link Mauve Which I’d like to push to get merged in xmpp.org soon. :)
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  997. eevvoor Ah your own table! Congrats and thx for putting it together!
  998. eevvoor Ah your own table! Congrats and thx for putting it together! Link Mauve
  999. Link Mauve It’s not mine, it’s client devs saying what their client supports in a DOAP file. :)
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  1004. eevvoor I see. And where do I find those DOAP files?
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  1010. Link Mauve They’re linked in the "doap" entry of each client in this file: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/data/clients.json
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  1012. Link Mauve I say client, but there is another JSON file for servers and another for libraries, in the same directory.
  1013. Link Mauve And those projects should also provide one!
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  1015. SamWhited I always vaguely think I should do that, and then I look at the file and realize I'd have to learn what DOAP is and how RDF works and figure out how to actually render XML properly when half the libraries screw up namespace prefixes in different confusing ways and it's all completely unreadable and then I give up.
  1016. SamWhited I should probably give it another go at some point though.
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  1019. Link Mauve SamWhited, why render it yourself?
  1020. SamWhited Link Mauve: as opposed to what? Is there some service that will generate this for you if you put in some info?
  1021. Link Mauve PulkoMandy wrote a XSLT script to automatically present it in a web browser, and eventually the goal would be for the various websites which want to use information from XMPP projects to fetch it from there.
  1022. Link Mauve https://github.com/pulkomandy/xmpp-doap
  1023. SamWhited Sorry, I said "render" I just meant "generate XML that's compliant somehow"
  1024. Link Mauve Oh.
  1025. eevvoor https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/raw/master/data/gajim.doap here is the DOAP for gajim.
  1026. Link Mauve Yeah, that’s different indeed. :)
  1027. SamWhited Adding XSLT to the mix does not make me desire to learn all of this impossible to read stuff more :)
  1028. Link Mauve I would recommend to start from an existing one, like the one eevvoor just linked, and change it to suit your library.
  1029. Link Mauve You can ask me to review it once it’s done.
  1030. eevvoor SamWhited, you could qick and dirty just copy paste and adept gajims DOAP.
  1031. eevvoor ah Link Mauve was faster ;)
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  1033. SamWhited Thanks for the offer of review; that's probably what I'd do to start, but if I don't automate generating it I'll never keep it up to date
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  1035. Link Mauve Do you have like one module per XEP in your library or something like that?
  1036. SamWhited Uggh, all of this just seems unnecessarily complicated for no reason though
  1037. Link Mauve I’d welcome any suggestion for making it simpler.
  1038. SamWhited Don't use XML, or tons of namespaces, or RDF files and XSL files and XML files and etc.
  1039. SamWhited Maybe basic XML would be fine.
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  1041. Link Mauve Basic XML, for this purpose, would be something like AppStream?
  1042. SamWhited I don't know what AppStream is
  1043. eevvoor hehe
  1044. Link Mauve https://www.freedesktop.org/software/appstream/docs/chap-Quickstart.html
  1045. Link Mauve I considered it, but RDF seemed much more extensible, for our purpose.
  1046. SamWhited Why do we need it to be more extensible?
  1047. Link Mauve And also already supported by many other consumer projects, which is a good point I guess.
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  1051. Link Mauve SamWhited, in our case, I needed to have the information about specification support.
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  1054. SamWhited I suppose; it seems like I just have to learn like 3 diffeerent technologies just to make a list of XEPs now.
  1055. Link Mauve There is no existing format that I could find which exposes this information in a machine-readable way.
  1056. Link Mauve You can also just consider it as normal XML and copy/paste from an existing project. :-°
  1057. SamWhited Like I said, I'll never keep it up to date that way, especially when it's this complicated. Or I'll just screw up all these namespaces a bunch.
  1058. SamWhited Anyways, maybe I'll give it another go at some point, I'm just sick of the XML community trying to make every simple problem solved with 5 layers of different XML tech even when it's not necessary.
  1059. SamWhited Sorry, I'm just ranting at this point though. Done now.
  1060. Link Mauve You could also make it use JSON-LD I guess, but that’s not simpler.
  1061. Link Mauve It represents exactly the same information.
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  1063. Link Mauve Using {}: instead of <>=, which is a plus I guess?
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  1065. SamWhited I don't know what that is either, but I don't think we need anything beyond simple XML or JSON (probably JSON because this does seem like simple key value pairs which is what JSON is best suited for, but either way).
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  1068. SamWhited Or TOML for all I care. It doesn't need anythign complicated.
  1069. Link Mauve You can write your DOAP file in JSON-LD, there are a multitude of tools to convert between different RDF formats.
  1070. moparisthebest SamWhited: look you have to accept XML into your heart as your lord and savior, the one true data format, would you like a pamphlet?
  1071. SamWhited <project><name>thing</name><xep>1234</xep><release><version>1</version></release></project>
  1072. SamWhited FTFY
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  1074. Link Mauve SamWhited, that’s almost what DOAP is, tbh.
  1075. SamWhited Except I also have to conform to whatever RDF is, and also figure out what all these namespaces mean, etc. I have no idea how I'd even figure out what most of this stuff is
  1076. Link Mauve Although with some other useful information, like if this XEP is supported, is support complete? Which version are you implementing? (super useful for keeping track of changes) Do you have some note on your implementation?
  1077. marc Ge0rG, sfs, xep-0446
  1078. SamWhited Sure, I waas not suggesting those were the only things that needed defining, just that it could be a single document in a single namespace without a ton of extra cruft.
  1079. Link Mauve SamWhited, RDF is a way to represent a list of <subject> <verb> <object> triples, which is really useful here. :)
  1080. SamWhited Or, as much as you joke about it being {} instead of <>, I think JSON would be a better fit here because it doesn't have all of XML's extra crap which is great if you're defining a giant chat protocol but not so great for representing a tiny handful of key value pairs.
  1081. SamWhited Why the hell would I have to learn a whole new technology and deal with that extra layer of abstraction just to encode a tiny bit of data?
  1082. SamWhited That's my whole point, this all just seems like overengineering for no reason
  1083. Link Mauve As I said, if that’s a plus for you, it’s trivial to convert RDF from its JSON representation to XML, or to Turtle, or to whatever.
  1084. SamWhited Anyways, sorry, didn't mean to rant, guess I'm not trying this again because I"m already mad at it again and I haven't even tried to figure it out
  1085. SamWhited It's not about the format, it's about the fact that it uses RDF at all. If I have to learn a JSON equivalent of a bunch of random crap it's just as bad as doing it in XML
  1086. Link Mauve SamWhited, the main reason I didn’t “just” invent my own XML format (I originally started that way btw), was that it has a ton of existing tools around, which I would have to build myself instead.
  1087. Link Mauve SamWhited, but you’d have to learn something anyway, if you want it to be compatible with other people.
  1088. SamWhited Why does it need tools? It's a tiny amount of data that doesn't need anything special to represent it
  1089. Link Mauve There is no magical format that everyone already knows.
  1090. SamWhited Of course, I never suggested there was
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  1092. Link Mauve It needs tools because otherwise you have a file.
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  1094. SamWhited That's all we need: a file.
  1095. Link Mauve Just a file, sitting here in your repo.
  1096. Link Mauve Many projects already had that, a file.
  1097. SamWhited I mean, you'd have to parse it, but presumably you have an XML parser already. You don't also need an RDF schema or some nonsaense
  1098. Link Mauve If not a RDF schema, maybe a… XML schema? :p
  1099. Link Mauve I could write you a XML schema representing such a RDF file, if that’d make you happy.
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  1101. Link Mauve That way you can validate it and generate a parser for it and whatnot.
  1102. SamWhited That is not at all what I'm suggesting
  1103. SamWhited I don't want to do any of that, I want to copy/pate the gajim one, read it, and know what's going on without spending hours learning new technologies just to write out some simple metadata
  1104. Link Mauve Have you tried doing just that?
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  1108. mathieui SamWhited, but that’s doable right now, all the items are quite self-explanatory
  1109. Link Mauve Ignore the few xmlns, focus on the element names and their content.
  1110. SamWhited Yes, multiple times, and I've mostly given up trying to figure out what every random thing in this complicated files was or why there are multiple xsl files related to it somehow or how rdf works and why there's an rdf file that's apparently an OWL schema, whatever that is, and etc.
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  1113. SamWhited Literally nothing about this is self explanatory.
  1114. SamWhited Why are the XMLNS's there if they can just be ignored?
  1115. mathieui because they explain to machines what this file is
  1116. Link Mauve SamWhited, why are there xmlns in XMPP?
  1117. SamWhited I understand what namespaces are and why they exist in XMPP, I don't understand why they exist in this file that's just encoding a trivial small amount of data.
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  1119. mathieui and the few things I find not self-explanatory without domain knowledge in this file, would be the xmlns and the foaf stuff
  1120. Link Mauve A <message/> also encodes a trivial small amount of data, much smaller than such a DOAP file tbh.
  1121. SamWhited Oh gosh, yah, there's also foaf, yet another random external thing to learn
  1122. mathieui (but even then it is quite understandable)
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  1124. mathieui I mean, foaf:Person, foaf:name, foaf:homepage, that is quite clear, especially with an example file
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  1126. Link Mauve Gajim’s DOAP doesn’t use foaf, the xmlns could be removed.
  1127. SamWhited I mean, we can argue about whether namespaces are useful in XMPP too if you want, but it's a false equivalency, XMPP is not the same thing as just encoding a list that a website can consume or whatever
  1128. SamWhited What, so foaf (whatever that is) isn't even necessary? Again, how am I supposed to know that just looking at one of these files and copy/pasting? Do I just get lucky?
  1129. Ge0rG marc: how is that any good for referencing a local file?
  1130. SamWhited I don't get why XML people think that this is somehow self explanatory
  1131. SamWhited Anyways, I'm all mad at XML now as usual. Going grocery shopping for real this time.
  1132. Link Mauve SamWhited, it’s necessary if you want to include author information, Gajim decided not to, so they don’t need it.
  1133. Link Mauve You don’t need to include information you don’t want to, you could just have <Project xmlns="http://usefulinc.com/ns/doap#"><name>Gajim</name></Project> and that’d be a valid DOAP file.
  1134. Link Mauve Any additional information is optional.
  1135. Link Mauve Of course, if you want it to be useful you may have to provide it, otherwise it won’t be queriable.
  1136. mathieui Link Mauve, though I think SamWhited has a point that we could easily make a doap generator for all the fields for people who don’t like editing text files
  1137. Link Mauve I started writing that at some point, then realised the bulk of the job would be in maintainance, not in writing it.
  1138. mathieui (generator/editor)
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  1140. Link Mauve And tbh, I’d expect someone who is able to write a XMPP software to be able to copy/paste a XML file and change a few fields.
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  1142. Ge0rG Link Mauve: heresy!
  1143. edhelas Link Mauve no one simply write XML by hand ! A true XML library you need
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