XSF Discussion - 2021-01-13

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  277. edhelas would it be interesting to start to share statistics about our XMPP servers ?
  278. edhelas like return the number of registered users, created chatrooms… this kind of things, it could help to have a bit more visibility and "map" the XMPP network
  279. MattJ Welcome to https://the-federation.info/
  280. wurstsalat edhelas, I recently added this post for the next newsletter issue: https://blabber.im/en/das-jahr-2020-im-rueckblick/ would be interesting to see more :)
  281. MattJ Specifically https://the-federation.info/protocol/xmpp
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  284. mathieui MattJ, I fear our (jabberfr) humongous number of inactive users is preventing a fine analysis :(
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  288. Zash Which hosts there aren't jabber.fr anyways? 🙂
  289. MattJ Total users is total users, not total active users :)
  290. mathieui yes, but it may make sense to purge users after like 10 years of inactiviy
  291. mathieui yes, but it may make sense to purge users after like 10 years of inactivity
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  293. mathieui (though I had an user last week who asked me for a password reset, who hadn’t connected in more than 5 years)
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  295. deuill I've got a feeling that 53 nodes is wildly incorrect, as that doesn't count servers with closed registration/self-hosted stuff. The implementation is very interesting, though.
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  297. Zash deuill, the whole thing is opt-in, so yeah, there are more than ~50 xmpp servers 🙂
  298. Zash 😉 https://blog.prosody.im/2020-retrospective/#more-users-than-ever-before
  299. Zash Most of them probably never heard of the-federation.info, enabled the module and registered themselves
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  301. deuill Yeah, those stats are incredible, and I agree with edhelas that sharing them is both interesting and helps drive optimism.
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  304. mdosch > Most of them probably never heard of the-federation.info, enabled the module and registered themselves Especially as it involves webserver fiddlery if your xmpp server doesn't serve http on 443.
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  306. Zash Interestingly, I added my own single-user server there, but it seems to have dropped off. Maybe because the static hack I did, or bugs. Not sure.
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  573. Paganini > would it be interesting to start to share statistics about our XMPP servers ? That would be great, in my opinion.
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  575. Zash Go forth, and bikeshed the format to use!
  576. moparisthebest we should get a die with formats on each side
  577. Link Mauve I’ve already implemented three of them, only https://modules.prosody.im/mod_nodeinfo2.html is still in use AIUI.
  578. moparisthebest json, xml, toml, hl7, csv, x86 asm
  579. Zash asm is the best data storage format, change my mind!
  580. moparisthebest one fair roll and no more bikeshedding
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  584. Zash inb4 "00: roll twice and combine"
  585. Link Mauve I just rolled XML in CSV.
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  587. benharri what format does the-federation use?
  588. Link Mauve benharri, the one from https://modules.prosody.im/mod_nodeinfo2.html
  589. Link Mauve Some JSON one.
  590. benharri and how can ejabberd export that?
  591. benharri ahh
  592. edhelas Zash is your Prosody Atom blog available on Pubsub ?
  593. edhelas "eat your own food"
  594. Zash edhelas, it's my microblog node
  595. Zash Oh
  596. Zash no
  597. Zash Prosody blog
  598. Zash I wanna say pubsub.prosody.im but I'm not sure
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  600. edhelas nope nothing there
  601. edhelas Zash https://github.com/edhelas/atomtopubsub :)
  602. Zash I raise you https://modules.prosody.im/mod_pubsub_feeds.html
  603. Zash edhelas, noted. supposed to work but it don't for whatever reason. might look another day
  604. edhelas :)
  605. edhelas You can put a XMPP subscribe uri somewhere
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  607. edhelas Movim support those
  608. Zash I can do a lot of things
  609. Zash Like write a script that turns csv into doap
  610. moparisthebest > I just rolled XML in CSV. still better than HL7
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  616. Ge0rG What if you want to participate in the federation, but don't want local authorities to know the user numbers? Asking for a friend.
  617. edhelas return random();
  618. Link Mauve Ge0rG, as you can see on https://modules.prosody.im/mod_nodeinfo2.html you can disable the user count.
  619. Arne ah thanks Link Mauve . Maybe a good thing
  620. edhelas Small question, should I add nodeinfo2 support to Movim itself, as it is more a client for XMPP ?
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  624. Link Mauve dwd, where did the compliance badge project go? IIRC you were keeping track of it at some point.
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  626. Zash Link Mauve, my browser history only seems to recall Ge0rGs https://op-co.de/tmp/xmpp-compliance-badges-2020/
  627. Link Mauve IIRC dwd asked some designer people to do some too.
  628. Ge0rG There was one on bitbucket by the Tedd. I think I have a local copy, can provide tomorrow
  629. Ge0rG Link Mauve: Board asked, but it didn't manifest
  630. benharri is there a way to get nodeinfo2 for the-federation in ejabberd?
  631. Link Mauve Zash, that page looks nice, but what about a Core IM, Advanced Core client, for instance?
  632. Link Mauve Or “Core IM, Core Mobile, Core Core”. :D
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  634. Link Mauve benharri, maybe ask in the Ejabberd room?
  635. benharri +1
  636. Zash Link Mauve, I also wondered how that's supposed to work
  637. Zash That's where I got stuck with the compliancer
  638. Ge0rG Link Mauve: needs two badges
  639. Zash That's ... weird tho?
  640. Ge0rG I've given up after all the bike shedding
  641. Ge0rG Feel free to suggest better badge formats
  642. Link Mauve Ideally we’d have a single badge per client.
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  644. Ge0rG &
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  651. Zash https://crschmidt.net/semweb/doapamatic/ TIL
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  655. lskdjf > Ideally we’d have a single badge per client. Not sure. I could see clients going for the IM and the A/V compliance, for example. Or for a web client, those two and additionally web. And each would be relevant information. But on the other hand the badges that zash linked are kind of large and you wouldn't want to overload the whole page with them. Maybe instead of the badges just display "IM" "A/V" below the client, and put the string into a grey/green box for core/advanced compliance. That way one could display all badges, while still not overloading the list
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  657. lskdjf > Ideally we’d have a single badge per client. Not sure. I could see clients going for the IM and the A/V compliance, for example. Or for a web client, those two and additionally web. And each would be relevant information. But on the other hand the badges that zash linked are kind of large and you wouldn't want to overload the whole page with them. Maybe instead of the badges just display "IM" "A/V" below the client, and put the string into a grey/green box for core/advanced compliance. That way one could display all information, while still not overloading the list
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  659. lskdjf > Ideally we’d have a single badge per client. Not sure. I could see clients going for the IM and the A/V compliance, for example. Or for a web client, those two and additionally web. And each would be relevant information. But on the other hand the badges that zash linked are kind of large and you wouldn't want to overload the whole page with them. Maybe instead of the badges just display "IM" "A/V" in a single line below the client, and put the string into a grey/green box for core/advanced compliance. That way one could display all information, while still not overloading the list
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  664. SamWhited Zash: is it just me or is does that doap generator not even spit out valid XML? It sticks some random floating namespace prefixes with no definition in for me. Not to mention that it doesn't have the RDF wrapper that I guess is needed since the examples in the protoXEP have it?
  665. SamWhited Also if it's correct about how licenses work even the protoxep doesn't have those right. This is absolutely an insane way to document anything, it's just not possible to actually get it right.
  666. moparisthebest seems like all the other clients managed to get it right without problems
  667. moparisthebest seems like all the other projects managed to get it right without problems
  668. SamWhited Apparently not if this generator is to be believed. Our spec is so convoluted that they all just get it wrong in the same way.
  669. SamWhited Or they all just copied the same handful of things without understanding them and without knowing how to actually get any reasonable documentation on them.
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  674. Zash SamWhited: I felt the same way at first, but it's not so bad when you get used to it.
  675. SamWhited That attitude is why we can't have nice things.
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  677. moparisthebest > Or they all just copied the same handful of things without understanding them and without knowing how to actually get any reasonable documentation on them. and the problem with this is????
  678. Link Mauve SamWhited, Firefox doesn’t display xmlns declarations in its default XML view, try view source.
  679. Zash Copypaste from an existing project and tweak a bit.
  680. SamWhited That's what everyone says about JavaScript.
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  682. SamWhited Link Mauve: I actually did try that, still no declaration
  683. Link Mauve SamWhited, also for license information, what did I do wrong?
  684. SamWhited Link Mauve: if this generator is correct it's a namespace that refers to a license, not a link to the license file.
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  688. SamWhited But I have no idea, and no idea how I'd find that out because this format is undocumented overengineered nonsense that we shouldn't be using.
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  690. SamWhited It's infuriating to watch the XML community make the same stupid mistakes over and over again, this is exactly why no one actually uses XMPP anymore.
  691. Link Mauve poezio’s license requires the copyright notice to be kept as is, so it will be different from other projects.
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  693. SamWhited Great, so it's maybe a namespace maybe a link, but I still don't know how or where I'd actually figure out what the valid thing for me to put there is.
  694. Zash SamWhited: Nobody adopted the simple format I made up. This is your punishment! :P
  695. Link Mauve I could have picked a project with a standardised license like GPL, but I used the one I’m most familiar with.
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  697. Link Mauve SamWhited, the DOAP specification says “The URI of an RDF description of the license the software is distributed under. E.g. a SPDX reference”.
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  699. Link Mauve This doesn’t seem undocumented to me.
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  701. SamWhited I haven't found that, maybe link it from the protoXEP? But still, great, yet another thing I have to learn. Now I have to figure out what URI of an RDF description is and how SPDX works instead of it just being <license>https://myproject.example.com/license</license> or whatever thing we came up with that didn't involve four technologies just to figure out what the license was.
  702. Link Mauve SamWhited, it is at http://usefulinc.com/ns/doap#license
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  705. SamWhited That links me to an unhelpful blob of XML, not to documentation
  706. SamWhited Also maybe it's just broken? That doesn't link me to anything to do with the license as far as I can tell
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  709. SamWhited It also has no character encoding defined, I'm guessing it's UTF-8 but the detection is wrong so there's a bunch of random garbled text on there.
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  711. Link Mauve SamWhited, RDF is a specification description format, pretty similar to our XEP format except machine-readable.
  712. Link Mauve That’s not just “an unhelpful blob of XML”, that is the specification of the format.
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  715. lskdjf SamWhited, I'm somewhat suprised at your rand on DOAP. So I just wanted to mention: In my impression, this format is used kind of widely in the open source community. Projects seem to do fine with it. There were also XMPP projects that had DOAP files independent of and before Link Mauve started using it for XEPs. Saying that noone uses this stuff because it's too complicated doesn't work if it's actually somewhat widely used.
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  718. SamWhited Great, so now I have to learn RDF in order to know what fields are in RDF.
  719. SamWhited It's really not that widely used, as far as I can tell from searching around. A tiny handful of projects use it.
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  724. moparisthebest seems a bit like "I can't write a hello world without first understanding electrical engineering", copy+paste one from another project, tweak it, forget about it for life
  725. mathieui yeah, like util-linux, gstreamer, gtk, gnupg-tools…
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  734. SamWhited Or we could just pick something sane that doesn't require copy/pasting and hoping it's right.
  735. Link Mauve SamWhited, do you have a counter-proposal?
  736. moparisthebest I don't like IP I think we should go with something encrypted by default, can we stop using IP ?
  737. SamWhited Sure, here's two and my attempt at copy/pasting that I'm not sure is right because I can't figure out what fields need to come from foaf or schema or doap or rdf or spdx or where some of that is documented: https://gist.github.com/SamWhited/5fb6e302fde5bbf1803ca33d8923aaad
  738. moparisthebest or is it too late?
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  741. SamWhited That's clearly a false equivalence. If the entire internet was based on DOAP, I would resign myself to using it even though it's garbage, but there's no reason we have to use this. No major thing we need to be compatible with. It's just not that widely used.
  742. SamWhited ehh, might have screwed up during the copy/paste and trying to make it sane XML where we could define all the fields in the XEP, still, you get the idea.
  743. Link Mauve SamWhited, it seems pretty easy to go from one to the other, tbh.
  744. SamWhited It's not because one would be documented in the XEP, the other is documented in multiple places and I'm not even sure how you'd figure out what to use. Eg. one project was using foaf. How am I supposed to discover that or learn that I can use it? Should I use it? Is it recommended?
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  749. Link Mauve SamWhited, properties like http://usefulinc.com/ns/doap#maintainer mention <rdfs:range rdf:resource="http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person" />
  750. Link Mauve This is how you’re supposed to discover which range of available values are possible.
  751. SamWhited Again, that's not helpful, that's a blob of XML not documentation.
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  805. wurstsalat What I really like about doap is automagic rendering of doap files in web browsers, just by adding some style xslt, et voilà
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  880. theTedd Link Mauve, re badges: I started a shiny new version with a multi-stage form, fewer hacks, and doap - which I'll try to finish off soon; I can put the old version back up tomorrow if needed
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  886. Link Mauve Nice!
  887. Link Mauve I already have the generation-from-DOAP used here, but without the images: https://linkmauve.fr/software/clients.html
  888. Link Mauve I’m not particularly in a hurry, this would be nice to have before it reaches xmpp.org.
  889. theTedd consider me motivated 😉
  890. Link Mauve Cool!
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