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edhelas
would it be interesting to start to share statistics about our XMPP servers ?
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edhelas
like return the number of registered users, created chatrooms… this kind of things, it could help to have a bit more visibility and "map" the XMPP network
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MattJ
Welcome to https://the-federation.info/
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wurstsalat
edhelas, I recently added this post for the next newsletter issue: https://blabber.im/en/das-jahr-2020-im-rueckblick/ would be interesting to see more :)
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MattJ
Specifically https://the-federation.info/protocol/xmpp
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mathieui
MattJ, I fear our (jabberfr) humongous number of inactive users is preventing a fine analysis :(
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Zash
Which hosts there aren't jabber.fr anyways? 🙂
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MattJ
Total users is total users, not total active users :)
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mathieui
yes, but it may make sense to purge users after like 10 years of inactiviy✎ -
mathieui
yes, but it may make sense to purge users after like 10 years of inactivity ✏
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mathieui
(though I had an user last week who asked me for a password reset, who hadn’t connected in more than 5 years)
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deuill
I've got a feeling that 53 nodes is wildly incorrect, as that doesn't count servers with closed registration/self-hosted stuff. The implementation is very interesting, though.
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Zash
deuill, the whole thing is opt-in, so yeah, there are more than ~50 xmpp servers 🙂
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Zash
😉 https://blog.prosody.im/2020-retrospective/#more-users-than-ever-before
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Zash
Most of them probably never heard of the-federation.info, enabled the module and registered themselves
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deuill
Yeah, those stats are incredible, and I agree with edhelas that sharing them is both interesting and helps drive optimism.
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mdosch
> Most of them probably never heard of the-federation.info, enabled the module and registered themselves Especially as it involves webserver fiddlery if your xmpp server doesn't serve http on 443.
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Zash
Interestingly, I added my own single-user server there, but it seems to have dropped off. Maybe because the static hack I did, or bugs. Not sure.
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Paganini
> would it be interesting to start to share statistics about our XMPP servers ? That would be great, in my opinion.
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Zash
Go forth, and bikeshed the format to use!
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moparisthebest
we should get a die with formats on each side
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Link Mauve
I’ve already implemented three of them, only https://modules.prosody.im/mod_nodeinfo2.html is still in use AIUI.
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moparisthebest
json, xml, toml, hl7, csv, x86 asm
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Zash
asm is the best data storage format, change my mind!
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moparisthebest
one fair roll and no more bikeshedding
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Zash
inb4 "00: roll twice and combine"
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Link Mauve
I just rolled XML in CSV.
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benharri
what format does the-federation use?
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Link Mauve
benharri, the one from https://modules.prosody.im/mod_nodeinfo2.html
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Link Mauve
Some JSON one.
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benharri
and how can ejabberd export that?
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benharri
ahh
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edhelas
Zash is your Prosody Atom blog available on Pubsub ?
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edhelas
"eat your own food"
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Zash
edhelas, it's my microblog node
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Zash
Oh
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Zash
no
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Zash
Prosody blog
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Zash
I wanna say pubsub.prosody.im but I'm not sure
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edhelas
nope nothing there
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edhelas
Zash https://github.com/edhelas/atomtopubsub :)
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Zash
I raise you https://modules.prosody.im/mod_pubsub_feeds.html
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Zash
edhelas, noted. supposed to work but it don't for whatever reason. might look another day
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edhelas
:)
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edhelas
You can put a XMPP subscribe uri somewhere
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edhelas
Movim support those
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Zash
I can do a lot of things
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Zash
Like write a script that turns csv into doap
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moparisthebest
> I just rolled XML in CSV. still better than HL7
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Ge0rG
What if you want to participate in the federation, but don't want local authorities to know the user numbers? Asking for a friend.
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edhelas
return random();
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Link Mauve
Ge0rG, as you can see on https://modules.prosody.im/mod_nodeinfo2.html you can disable the user count.
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Arne
ah thanks Link Mauve . Maybe a good thing
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edhelas
Small question, should I add nodeinfo2 support to Movim itself, as it is more a client for XMPP ?
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Link Mauve
dwd, where did the compliance badge project go? IIRC you were keeping track of it at some point.
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Zash
Link Mauve, my browser history only seems to recall Ge0rGs https://op-co.de/tmp/xmpp-compliance-badges-2020/
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Link Mauve
IIRC dwd asked some designer people to do some too.
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Ge0rG
There was one on bitbucket by the Tedd. I think I have a local copy, can provide tomorrow
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Ge0rG
Link Mauve: Board asked, but it didn't manifest
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benharri
is there a way to get nodeinfo2 for the-federation in ejabberd?
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Link Mauve
Zash, that page looks nice, but what about a Core IM, Advanced Core client, for instance?
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Link Mauve
Or “Core IM, Core Mobile, Core Core”. :D
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Link Mauve
benharri, maybe ask in the Ejabberd room?
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benharri
+1
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Zash
Link Mauve, I also wondered how that's supposed to work
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Zash
That's where I got stuck with the compliancer
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Ge0rG
Link Mauve: needs two badges
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Zash
That's ... weird tho?
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Ge0rG
I've given up after all the bike shedding
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Ge0rG
Feel free to suggest better badge formats
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Link Mauve
Ideally we’d have a single badge per client.
- Ge0rG &
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Zash
https://crschmidt.net/semweb/doapamatic/ TIL
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lskdjf
> Ideally we’d have a single badge per client. Not sure. I could see clients going for the IM and the A/V compliance, for example. Or for a web client, those two and additionally web. And each would be relevant information. But on the other hand the badges that zash linked are kind of large and you wouldn't want to overload the whole page with them. Maybe instead of the badges just display "IM" "A/V" below the client, and put the string into a grey/green box for core/advanced compliance. That way one could display all badges, while still not overloading the list✎ -
lskdjf
> Ideally we’d have a single badge per client. Not sure. I could see clients going for the IM and the A/V compliance, for example. Or for a web client, those two and additionally web. And each would be relevant information. But on the other hand the badges that zash linked are kind of large and you wouldn't want to overload the whole page with them. Maybe instead of the badges just display "IM" "A/V" below the client, and put the string into a grey/green box for core/advanced compliance. That way one could display all information, while still not overloading the list ✏
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lskdjf
> Ideally we’d have a single badge per client. Not sure. I could see clients going for the IM and the A/V compliance, for example. Or for a web client, those two and additionally web. And each would be relevant information. But on the other hand the badges that zash linked are kind of large and you wouldn't want to overload the whole page with them. Maybe instead of the badges just display "IM" "A/V" in a single line below the client, and put the string into a grey/green box for core/advanced compliance. That way one could display all information, while still not overloading the list ✏
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SamWhited
Zash: is it just me or is does that doap generator not even spit out valid XML? It sticks some random floating namespace prefixes with no definition in for me. Not to mention that it doesn't have the RDF wrapper that I guess is needed since the examples in the protoXEP have it?
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SamWhited
Also if it's correct about how licenses work even the protoxep doesn't have those right. This is absolutely an insane way to document anything, it's just not possible to actually get it right.
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moparisthebest
seems like all the other clients managed to get it right without problems✎ -
moparisthebest
seems like all the other projects managed to get it right without problems ✏
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SamWhited
Apparently not if this generator is to be believed. Our spec is so convoluted that they all just get it wrong in the same way.
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SamWhited
Or they all just copied the same handful of things without understanding them and without knowing how to actually get any reasonable documentation on them.
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Zash
SamWhited: I felt the same way at first, but it's not so bad when you get used to it.
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SamWhited
That attitude is why we can't have nice things.
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moparisthebest
> Or they all just copied the same handful of things without understanding them and without knowing how to actually get any reasonable documentation on them. and the problem with this is????
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Link Mauve
SamWhited, Firefox doesn’t display xmlns declarations in its default XML view, try view source.
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Zash
Copypaste from an existing project and tweak a bit.
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SamWhited
That's what everyone says about JavaScript.
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SamWhited
Link Mauve: I actually did try that, still no declaration
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Link Mauve
SamWhited, also for license information, what did I do wrong?
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SamWhited
Link Mauve: if this generator is correct it's a namespace that refers to a license, not a link to the license file.
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SamWhited
But I have no idea, and no idea how I'd find that out because this format is undocumented overengineered nonsense that we shouldn't be using.
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SamWhited
It's infuriating to watch the XML community make the same stupid mistakes over and over again, this is exactly why no one actually uses XMPP anymore.
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Link Mauve
poezio’s license requires the copyright notice to be kept as is, so it will be different from other projects.
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SamWhited
Great, so it's maybe a namespace maybe a link, but I still don't know how or where I'd actually figure out what the valid thing for me to put there is.
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Zash
SamWhited: Nobody adopted the simple format I made up. This is your punishment! :P
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Link Mauve
I could have picked a project with a standardised license like GPL, but I used the one I’m most familiar with.
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Link Mauve
SamWhited, the DOAP specification says “The URI of an RDF description of the license the software is distributed under. E.g. a SPDX reference”.
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Link Mauve
This doesn’t seem undocumented to me.
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SamWhited
I haven't found that, maybe link it from the protoXEP? But still, great, yet another thing I have to learn. Now I have to figure out what URI of an RDF description is and how SPDX works instead of it just being <license>https://myproject.example.com/license</license> or whatever thing we came up with that didn't involve four technologies just to figure out what the license was.
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Link Mauve
SamWhited, it is at http://usefulinc.com/ns/doap#license
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SamWhited
That links me to an unhelpful blob of XML, not to documentation
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SamWhited
Also maybe it's just broken? That doesn't link me to anything to do with the license as far as I can tell
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SamWhited
It also has no character encoding defined, I'm guessing it's UTF-8 but the detection is wrong so there's a bunch of random garbled text on there.
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Link Mauve
SamWhited, RDF is a specification description format, pretty similar to our XEP format except machine-readable.
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Link Mauve
That’s not just “an unhelpful blob of XML”, that is the specification of the format.
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lskdjf
SamWhited, I'm somewhat suprised at your rand on DOAP. So I just wanted to mention: In my impression, this format is used kind of widely in the open source community. Projects seem to do fine with it. There were also XMPP projects that had DOAP files independent of and before Link Mauve started using it for XEPs. Saying that noone uses this stuff because it's too complicated doesn't work if it's actually somewhat widely used.
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SamWhited
Great, so now I have to learn RDF in order to know what fields are in RDF.
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SamWhited
It's really not that widely used, as far as I can tell from searching around. A tiny handful of projects use it.
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moparisthebest
seems a bit like "I can't write a hello world without first understanding electrical engineering", copy+paste one from another project, tweak it, forget about it for life
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mathieui
yeah, like util-linux, gstreamer, gtk, gnupg-tools…
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SamWhited
Or we could just pick something sane that doesn't require copy/pasting and hoping it's right.
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Link Mauve
SamWhited, do you have a counter-proposal?
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moparisthebest
I don't like IP I think we should go with something encrypted by default, can we stop using IP ?
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SamWhited
Sure, here's two and my attempt at copy/pasting that I'm not sure is right because I can't figure out what fields need to come from foaf or schema or doap or rdf or spdx or where some of that is documented: https://gist.github.com/SamWhited/5fb6e302fde5bbf1803ca33d8923aaad
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moparisthebest
or is it too late?
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SamWhited
That's clearly a false equivalence. If the entire internet was based on DOAP, I would resign myself to using it even though it's garbage, but there's no reason we have to use this. No major thing we need to be compatible with. It's just not that widely used.
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SamWhited
ehh, might have screwed up during the copy/paste and trying to make it sane XML where we could define all the fields in the XEP, still, you get the idea.
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Link Mauve
SamWhited, it seems pretty easy to go from one to the other, tbh.
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SamWhited
It's not because one would be documented in the XEP, the other is documented in multiple places and I'm not even sure how you'd figure out what to use. Eg. one project was using foaf. How am I supposed to discover that or learn that I can use it? Should I use it? Is it recommended?
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Link Mauve
SamWhited, properties like http://usefulinc.com/ns/doap#maintainer mention <rdfs:range rdf:resource="http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/Person" />
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Link Mauve
This is how you’re supposed to discover which range of available values are possible.
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SamWhited
Again, that's not helpful, that's a blob of XML not documentation.
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wurstsalat
What I really like about doap is automagic rendering of doap files in web browsers, just by adding some style xslt, et voilà
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theTedd
Link Mauve, re badges: I started a shiny new version with a multi-stage form, fewer hacks, and doap - which I'll try to finish off soon; I can put the old version back up tomorrow if needed
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Link Mauve
Nice!
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Link Mauve
I already have the generation-from-DOAP used here, but without the images: https://linkmauve.fr/software/clients.html
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Link Mauve
I’m not particularly in a hurry, this would be nice to have before it reaches xmpp.org.
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theTedd
consider me motivated 😉
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Link Mauve
Cool!