XSF Discussion - 2021-01-18

  1. Vaulor has left

  2. Vaulor has joined

  3. Andrzej has joined

  4. peetah has left

  5. peetah has joined

  6. Vaulor has left

  7. Vaulor has joined

  8. Vaulor has left

  9. Vaulor has joined

  10. Vaulor has left

  11. Vaulor has joined

  12. Vaulor has left

  13. Vaulor has joined

  14. Vaulor has left

  15. Vaulor has joined

  16. arc has left

  17. arc has joined

  18. arc has left

  19. arc has joined

  20. marek has left

  21. marek has joined

  22. neshtaxmpp has left

  23. arc has left

  24. arc has joined

  25. arc has left

  26. arc has joined

  27. Vaulor has left

  28. Vaulor has joined

  29. arc has left

  30. arc has joined

  31. arc has left

  32. arc has joined

  33. antranigv has joined

  34. Vaulor has left

  35. Vaulor has joined

  36. neshtaxmpp has joined

  37. Vaulor has left

  38. Vaulor has joined

  39. emus has left

  40. Vaulor has left

  41. Vaulor has joined

  42. alameyo has left

  43. Vaulor has left

  44. Vaulor has joined

  45. Vaulor has left

  46. Vaulor has joined

  47. Vaulor has left

  48. Vaulor has joined

  49. karoshi has left

  50. sonny has left

  51. Vaulor has left

  52. Vaulor has joined

  53. LNJ has left

  54. marek has left

  55. marek has joined

  56. Vaulor has left

  57. Vaulor has joined

  58. debacle has left

  59. Vaulor has left

  60. Vaulor has joined

  61. Vaulor has left

  62. Vaulor has joined

  63. Vaulor has left

  64. Vaulor has joined

  65. Calvin has joined

  66. Vaulor has left

  67. Vaulor has joined

  68. Vaulor has left

  69. Vaulor has joined

  70. wladmis has left

  71. Vaulor has left

  72. Vaulor has joined

  73. Vaulor has left

  74. Vaulor has joined

  75. Vaulor has left

  76. Vaulor has joined

  77. benharri has left

  78. krauq has left

  79. krauq has joined

  80. Vaulor has left

  81. Vaulor has joined

  82. SnowCode has left

  83. Vaulor has left

  84. Vaulor has joined

  85. paul has left

  86. Vaulor has left

  87. alameyo has joined

  88. Vaulor has joined

  89. Vaulor has left

  90. Vaulor has joined

  91. Vaulor has left

  92. Vaulor has joined

  93. Vaulor has left

  94. Vaulor has joined

  95. Vaulor has left

  96. Vaulor has joined

  97. Vaulor has left

  98. Vaulor has joined

  99. Vaulor has left

  100. Vaulor has joined

  101. Vaulor has left

  102. Vaulor has joined

  103. Vaulor has left

  104. Vaulor has joined

  105. Vaulor has left

  106. Vaulor has joined

  107. Vaulor has left

  108. Vaulor has joined

  109. Vaulor has left

  110. Vaulor has joined

  111. Vaulor has left

  112. Vaulor has joined

  113. Vaulor has left

  114. Vaulor has joined

  115. mukt2 has left

  116. Vaulor has left

  117. Vaulor has joined

  118. Vaulor has left

  119. Vaulor has joined

  120. neshtaxmpp has left

  121. mukt2 has joined

  122. marek has left

  123. marek has joined

  124. Vaulor has left

  125. Vaulor has joined

  126. Vaulor has left

  127. Vaulor has joined

  128. Vaulor has left

  129. Vaulor has joined

  130. Vaulor has left

  131. Vaulor has joined

  132. Vaulor has left

  133. Vaulor has joined

  134. Vaulor has left

  135. Vaulor has joined

  136. Vaulor has left

  137. Vaulor has joined

  138. Vaulor has left

  139. Vaulor has joined

  140. Vaulor has left

  141. Vaulor has joined

  142. Vaulor has left

  143. Vaulor has joined

  144. Vaulor has left

  145. Vaulor has joined

  146. Yagiza has joined

  147. Vaulor has left

  148. Vaulor has joined

  149. Vaulor has left

  150. Vaulor has joined

  151. Vaulor has left

  152. Vaulor has joined

  153. Calvin has left

  154. chronosx88 has joined

  155. Vaulor has left

  156. Vaulor has joined

  157. Vaulor has left

  158. Vaulor has joined

  159. Vaulor has left

  160. arc has left

  161. Vaulor has joined

  162. Vaulor has left

  163. Vaulor has joined

  164. govanify has left

  165. govanify has joined

  166. floretta has left

  167. Vaulor has left

  168. Vaulor has joined

  169. Vaulor has left

  170. Vaulor has joined

  171. mukt2 has left

  172. Vaulor has left

  173. Vaulor has joined

  174. Vaulor has left

  175. Vaulor has joined

  176. Vaulor has left

  177. Vaulor has joined

  178. mukt2 has joined

  179. karoshi has joined

  180. mukt2 has left

  181. mukt2 has joined

  182. govanify has left

  183. govanify has joined

  184. Tobias has joined

  185. mukt2 has left

  186. chronosx88 has left

  187. chronosx88 has joined

  188. esil has joined

  189. esil has left

  190. mukt2 has joined

  191. karoshi has left

  192. andy has joined

  193. mukt2 has left

  194. karoshi has joined

  195. Seve has joined

  196. govanify has left

  197. govanify has joined

  198. chronosx88 has left

  199. chronosx88 has joined

  200. peetah has left

  201. peetah has joined

  202. mukt2 has joined

  203. paul has joined

  204. marek has left

  205. marek has joined

  206. govanify has left

  207. govanify has joined

  208. SnowCode has joined

  209. SnowCode has left

  210. SnowCode has joined

  211. wurstsalat has joined

  212. mukt2 has left

  213. emus has joined

  214. chronosx88 has left

  215. chronosx88 has joined

  216. SnowCode has left

  217. alex-a-soto has left

  218. alex-a-soto has joined

  219. chronosx88 has left

  220. chronosx88 has joined

  221. jcbrand has joined

  222. SnowCode has joined

  223. LNJ has joined

  224. govanify has left

  225. govanify has joined

  226. mukt2 has joined

  227. chronosx88 has left

  228. chronosx88 has joined

  229. chronosx88 has left

  230. chronosx88 has joined

  231. marc has joined

  232. marc has left

  233. marc has joined

  234. mukt2 has left

  235. goffi has joined

  236. LNJ has left

  237. chronosx88 has left

  238. chronosx88 has joined

  239. LNJ has joined

  240. SnowCode has left

  241. SnowCode has joined

  242. paul has left

  243. paul has joined

  244. gav has left

  245. marc has left

  246. mukt2 has joined

  247. mathijs has left

  248. marc has joined

  249. Mikaela has joined

  250. marc

    Did anybody notice an increase of users on its server during the last weeks / related to the WhatsApp "privacy policy change thing"?

  251. Kev has joined

  252. SnowCode has left

  253. mathijs has joined

  254. sonny has joined

  255. mukt2 has left

  256. Ge0rG

    marc: Signal did...

  257. mukt2 has joined

  258. Ge0rG

    but yeah, it looks like I have 3x the number of new users per week for the last two or three weeks

  259. marc has left

  260. peetah has left

  261. emus has left

  262. peetah has joined

  263. emus has joined

  264. lovetox has left

  265. chronosx88 has left

  266. chronosx88 has joined

  267. govanify has left

  268. govanify has joined

  269. Link Mauve has left

  270. lovetox has joined

  271. mukt2 has left

  272. marc has joined

  273. Guus has joined

  274. marc

    I know that signal did ;)

  275. marc

    Ge0rG: cool!

  276. Ge0rG

    Did we send that tweet yet?

  277. debacle has joined

  278. marc

    I don't think so

  279. marc

    Ge0rG: do you have public stats for yax.im?

  280. Ge0rG

    marc: no

  281. mathieui

    marc, here not much difference on active users, but on the other hand we never had that many MUC users

  282. marc

    mathieui: I mean registered users on a server

  283. paul has left

  284. paul has joined

  285. marc has left

  286. mdosch

    Anyone looked at the public jabber.fr stats? Do they also increase as yax.ims?

  287. marc has joined

  288. floretta has joined

  289. marc

    mdosch: do they have public stats?

  290. jonas’


  291. jonas’

    no effect in the past 90 days

  292. jonas’

    there is a fake-effect in the past 30 days for active client connections, but if you go back further you notice that it’s just the recovery from the holiday drop off

  293. mimi89999 has left

  294. mimi89999 has joined

  295. Adi has joined

  296. mdosch

    Maybe that chapril is more popular now in France?

  297. mathieui

    mdosch, I was talking about the jabber.fr stats

  298. chronosx88 has left

  299. chronosx88 has joined

  300. purplebeetroot has joined

  301. Ge0rG


  302. Ge0rG

    marc: ^

  303. emus has left

  304. Dele Olajide has joined

  305. mukt2 has joined

  306. chronosx88 has left

  307. chronosx88 has joined

  308. Andrzej has left

  309. emus has joined

  310. mukt2 has left

  311. Dele Olajide has left

  312. Dele Olajide has joined

  313. neshtaxmpp has joined

  314. eevvoor has left

  315. eevvoor has joined

  316. karoshi has left

  317. karoshi has joined

  318. govanify has left

  319. govanify has joined

  320. purplebeetroot has left

  321. mukt2 has joined

  322. edhelas

    It seems that I have a light bump on movim.eu

  323. edhelas

    I'll try to do statistics

  324. krauq has left

  325. krauq has joined

  326. mukt2 has left

  327. marc

    Ge0rG: wow, quite significant

  328. mdosch

    yax.im is the new WhatsApp!

  329. Ge0rG

    marc: I didn't filter for spam bots

  330. marc

    I see

  331. marc

    What's running on jabberfr?

  332. jonas’


  333. purplebeetroot has joined

  334. toko has joined

  335. edhelas

    I ~doubled the registration per day on my side

  336. edhelas

    moving from 10 to 20

  337. andrey.g has joined

  338. edhelas

    I have a captcha, and i've checked the JIDs, they seems legit

  339. marc

    Would be nice to have more stats for all the public servers

  340. edhelas

    that's what I was proposing

  341. edhelas

    would be nice to have a XEP to allow a little IQ request

  342. edhelas

    returning some general statistics

  343. marc


  344. mdosch

    Like the module for the-federation.info?

  345. edhelas


  346. marc

    But xmpp specific

  347. mdosch

    There are already xmpp servers reporting.

  348. Zash

    39? Or what number the stats xep had

  349. emus has left

  350. jonas’

    give me something to scrape, I’ll add it to s.j.n

  351. marc

    Next project is better stats for ejabberd, then I will look into this topic more

  352. andrey.g has left

  353. emus has joined

  354. mdosch

    jonas’: https://mdosch.de/.well-known/x-nodeinfo2

  355. mdosch


  356. marc has left

  357. govanify has left

  358. marc has joined

  359. emus

    > Ge0rG escribió: > Did we send that tweet yet? Im working on this + a blog post

  360. jonas’

    mdosch, can I get that over XMPP?

  361. marc has left

  362. marc has joined

  363. mdosch

    Afaik this module only serves the .well-known URL: https://modules.prosody.im/mod_nodeinfo2.html

  364. mdosch

    But maybe another module does, dunno.

  365. mdosch

    https://modules.prosody.im/mod_pubsub_stats.html Maybe

  366. purplebeetroot has left

  367. edhelas

    marc that would also greatly help with the "pick a XMPP server" thing

  368. govanify has joined

  369. mdosch has left

  370. mdosch has joined

  371. mdosch has left

  372. mdosch has joined

  373. chronosx88 has left

  374. chronosx88 has joined

  375. mdosch has left

  376. mdosch has joined

  377. Ge0rG

    emus: I would have appreciated tweeting a first reaction when the situation was in the headlines, and to follow-up with a blog post later

  378. jonas’

    half a week later it’s so old news, no point in tweeting anything

  379. Ge0rG

    emus: as it looks now, WhatsApp's new ToS will come back in May, so we need to have something robust prepared for around mid-April

  380. mukt2 has joined

  381. jonas’

    snikket with iOS? :)

  382. Ge0rG

    jonas’: it's been ten days by now

  383. jonas’

    Ge0rG, thanks

  384. Ge0rG

    jonas’: but I fully agree with your point

  385. Ge0rG

    (if that didn't become apparent from my previous statement, already)

  386. dwd

    How can we improve our social media "reaction time"?

  387. jonas’

    have a paid person doing this a fixed amount of time per week

  388. Ge0rG

    dwd: have a dedicated person for that

  389. Ge0rG

    somebody who's familiar with the ecosystem or can consult the right people™ on short notice in a MUC

  390. paul has left

  391. paul has joined

  392. dwd

    Ge0rG, I think we do have some people doing that. Are they sufficiently empowered and confident enoughto propose and post quickly?

  393. Ge0rG

    dwd: apparently not

  394. dwd

    No, I agree. How can we change that? (And, FWIW, I don't know who these people are, which - as a Board member - is pretty rubbish of me).

  395. Zash

    Isn't Board the one with final responsibility?

  396. Ge0rG

    dwd: I did a quick&dirty tweet suggestion on commteam@, on December 8th. I hoped there would be discussion/feedback on the comment, or somebody with twitter rights would pick it up.

  397. Guus has left

  398. Ge0rG

    dwd: probably what really is needed ia an authoritative person to drive the social media, so that there is no question on who should do the follow-up work

  399. Guus has joined

  400. dwd

    Zash, Yes. But it's sared across the Board. I think we probably need a single person to have the final say, with a policy driven by Board.

  401. Ge0rG

    As it is now, there are multiple volunteers, and I can understand if they all don't have the resources / think that one of the other folks would do something™

  402. dwd

    Ge0rG, Shared responsibility doesn't multiply, it divides, indeed.

  403. Zash

    Tragedy of the commons 😕

  404. wladmis has joined

  405. andrey.g has joined

  406. mdosch has left

  407. mdosch has joined

  408. Ge0rG

    dwd: and I suppose that having a 70% perfect tweet at the right time is much better than having a perfect tweet two weeks late

  409. Ge0rG

    (no parallels to vaccination strategies intended)

  410. Paganini has left

  411. nyco has left

  412. edhelas has left

  413. MattJ

    100% agree that someone needs responsibility over social media. I'm starting to feel the same way about SCAM as well right now, to be honest. It's not clear what the status is, if anything of FOSDEM and summit.

  414. Ge0rG

    part of the responsibility should be updating schedules on the wiki

  415. dwd

    Ge0rG, The enemy of the good tweet is several weeks bikeshedding about the perfect one, I agree. But Board does need to agree on what "Good" looks like.

  416. nyco has joined

  417. andrey.g has left

  418. Ge0rG

    dwd: it should suffice for Board to define the basic rules for what "Good" looks like, not to decide on each individual tweet

  419. Ge0rG

    Otherwise we'll only ever tweet on friday evenings.

  420. dwd

    Ge0rG, Absolutely. Policy not control.

  421. edhelas has joined

  422. jonas’

    Ge0rG, s/December/January/?

  423. Ge0rG

    jonas’: oh sorry, indeed.

  424. Ge0rG

    I'm still caught in 2020

  425. jonas’

    who isn’t

  426. Paganini has joined

  427. Zash

    Wake me up when March ends

  428. Ge0rG

    Zash: we are still in September. September 1993

  429. dwd

    Reminds me, I plotted the time between a message and a displayed marker on our network across 2020. (Actually average of the fastest 90%, since there's a really long tail). It's pretty muhc inversely proportional to COVID-19 caseloads.

  430. Ge0rG

    dwd: can you publish a nice marketing write-up on that?

  431. govanify has left

  432. govanify has joined

  433. Ge0rG

    My server will only retain the last 14 days, and even then it's probably illegal for me to aggregate that data.

  434. Ge0rG

    It's sad to see April 2020 as the first item under "Recent Events", and no mention of Board / membership elections

  435. Ge0rG

    Upcoming: Google Summer of Code 2020

  436. Ge0rG

    We really need to assign somebody to maintain the wiki frontpage

  437. emus

    > Ge0rG escribió: > emus: as it looks now, WhatsApp's new ToS will come back in May, so we need to have something robust prepared for around mid-April I refuse to jump on each hype train on the opposite. Therefore I take sometime to think what I wanted to say to said. But also I dont have a lot time to do quick reactions always. Yes, if XSF wants quick reactions, we need to hire people for that and other things as well I guess. Anyway, I personally do not share those shorttime reactions/impressions as people usually do.

  438. Zash

    Ge0rG, how about you?

  439. Guus has left

  440. Guus has joined

  441. dwd

    Ge0rG, I think we will be; however I did most of our analysis on a subsection of our data relating to Defence Medical Services, so I'll probably redo the data across all our users (and probably focus the Blog post on NHS data).

  442. Ge0rG

    emus: I'm just comparing the public statements of a different federated IM network, and they are doing significantly better. This is not a criticism on anybody involved in our volunteer work, just a thought on what we could be able to improve

  443. dwd

    Ge0rG, "redo the data" is just re-migrate through the new server's archiving code which does most of this analysis on the fly.

  444. jonas’

    I hate to ask this

  445. jonas’


  446. Ge0rG

    emus: but I think that we need to be able to do such short-term hype reactions, even if we all dislike this kind of activity

  447. jonas’

    but as it happens, I am around-ish most of the time anyway

  448. jonas’

    can I haz twitter access?

  449. Kev

    jonas': I can hand out Twitter access, but would rather be directed by someone on Board to do so.

  450. Ge0rG

    dwd: that sounds really intriguing

  451. mimi89999 has left

  452. Ge0rG

    I'd love to see jonas’ as our Social Media Representative

  453. mimi89999 has joined

  454. jonas’

    Ge0rG, haha, no

  455. jonas’

    just as a twitter proofreader and proxy

  456. jonas’

    I’m not going to write stuff

  457. mimi89999 has left

  458. Ge0rG

    Zash: I absolutely lack the time to take any additional workload

  459. dwd

    Ge0rG, Fairly tightly coupled into our tech stack, though. But lots of its ideas could be reused in other servers.

  460. mukt2 has left

  461. mimi89999 has joined

  462. emus

    Ge0rG: Sorry, till thursday last week I had no time for xmpp stuff 🤷‍♂️But as said Im on it. As there is no real holistic onboarding strategy within XMPP a quick thing wont bring us tot he front. Also each project advertises themselves for onboarding. So, if one wants to drop a short tweet is fine. I see my role in thinking about what we want actually say in general and give a proper response. I think that is one outcome in the blog post

  463. Ge0rG

    emus: I agree on the holistic strategy, and it's a significant second part of marketing

  464. Ge0rG

    emus: regarding project-oriented advertising, I think that there is a place for those, but there is also a place for advertising the federated ecosystem as a whole

  465. emus

    Im sure this topic will be there on 8th of feb again or when ever they hit the ground with that. Im not afraid of "missing the right time" here. If we want to make a difference we shouldnt fear to just go crazy as all the others did. but give me another 24 hrs for the first review.

  466. emus

    > Ge0rG escribió: > emus: regarding project-oriented advertising, I think that there is a place for those, but there is also a place for advertising the federated ecosystem as a whole Ok, but what exactly you mean

  467. Ge0rG

    emus: the ToS enforcement has been delayed, at least for the EU, into May

  468. Ge0rG

    emus: essentially what I proposed to tweet ten days ago. Advertising the federated XMPP network

  469. MattJ

    I'm not against it, but it won't do much good

  470. emus

    okay, ah thats what you meant

  471. Mikaela has left

  472. Ge0rG

    MattJ: what would you propose, that does more good?

  473. Ge0rG

    Maybe we can start writing down an @xmpp Social Media Policy in the wiki?

  474. emus

    Ge0rG: I know, but I prefered to write up something more thoroughly (no offence)

  475. MattJ

    People have been pusing XMPP in various places the past few weeks, but pushing "XMPP" as an alternative to "WhatsApp" is a joke for all but 0.5% of WhatsApp users

  476. MattJ

    They are looking for something they can search for on the Play/App store, and install it and move on

  477. mukt2 has joined

  478. Ge0rG

    emus: and that's great as well. But we could pitch a short-term "hi we are here" first, and then follow-up with a blog-post and another round of twitter then

  479. MattJ

    They're not interested in our little war against silos

  480. Ge0rG

    MattJ: like... https://joinjabber.org/

  481. MattJ

    Stuff like that is a step in the right direction, yes

  482. emus

    > MattJ escribió: > They're not interested in our little war against silos And that is what I try to make a statement about

  483. dwd

    emus, What do you mean?

  484. sidereal has joined

  485. emus

    > Ge0rG escribió: > emus: and that's great as well. But we could pitch a short-term "hi we are here" first, and then follow-up with a blog-post and another round of twitter then I know, but I had absolutely no time. Sorry for that.

  486. Guus has left

  487. Wojtek has joined

  488. Guus has joined

  489. Ge0rG

    emus: not criticising you, just saying that it would be great to have somebody who has a time budget allocated to this

  490. dwd

    MattJ, FWIW, I think people broadly do care about decentralization. Just not as much as they care about talking to their friends.

  491. emus

    > dwd escribió: > emus, What do you mean? That it is a question of technology, not of the messenger. but as said, gonna sent my suggestion soon

  492. MattJ

    dwd, I think that among the general population (let's say WhatsApp users), you'll find less than 20% who care or understand decentralization

  493. MattJ

    and a far smaller fraction of them are willing/able to actually do something about it when presented with the xmpp.org website

  494. Ge0rG

    MattJ: but it makes sense to target the nerds with content regarding "easy setup of an encrypted-by-default family chat", and those will convince the larger populace

  495. jonas’


  496. Ge0rG

    I agree that the XMPP marketing target audience is not regular people but nerds

  497. jonas’

    for example, a Snikket

  498. dwd

    MattJ, I think that more people care in general, broad terms. But yes, I agree few will do anything about it - in part because fundamentally, people just want top talk to their friends and family.

  499. mukt2 has left

  500. wladmis has left

  501. wladmis has joined

  502. krauq has left

  503. krauq has joined

  504. Mikaela has joined

  505. Neustradamus has joined

  506. krauq has left

  507. emus

    > Ge0rG escribió: > MattJ: but it makes sense to target the nerds with content regarding "easy setup of an encrypted-by-default family chat", and those will convince the larger populace good point

  508. krauq has joined

  509. SamWhited

    How's that working out so far with everybodies friends/family/etc.? (I'm being facetious of course, but I don't think that's true at all: the nerds are almost never the ones to be the early adopters of a technology that gets it off the ground I suspect)

  510. yushyin

    I've not succeeded in introducing xmpp as a family chat because of the lack of featureful clients (especially for iOS)

  511. MattJ

    SamWhited, I think you're wrong, but as someone who has spent over a year trying to make that happen...

  512. MattJ

    My family are all using XMPP, except for the few iPhone users

  513. MattJ

    So 11 family members, and hopefully 3 more to be added once iOS is ready

  514. SamWhited

    MattJ: and are they spreading it outside of your family to their friends and your extended family?

  515. Zash

    Haven't heard much complaints, tho there's that one iOS user who unfortunately is still left out 😕

  516. MattJ

    SamWhited, no, but I'm hoping to fix that very soon

  517. MattJ

    Sponsored the new feature in Conversations that allows you to invite new contacts

  518. Ge0rG

    SamWhited: I've introduced XMPP as the sole mean to do IM with me, and it looks like five family members use it to communicate with me, except when their videos exceed the http file upload size

  519. MattJ

    and my wife is looking forward to that

  520. SamWhited

    I suspect it's exactly the opposite. The nerds all join new shiny things quickly, then something else picks up steam, the nerds resist it for as long as possible, but then everyone else has gotten on Facebook Messenger or whatever and eventually the nerds capitulate and use it. Advertising to a tiny fraction of people is never going to cause something to spread widely.

  521. Guus has left

  522. SamWhited

    There's a lot of small groups and "except's" in these examples. Facebook (or whomever) wins because they have large group and very few "excepts". The "excepts" that they do have are likely the nerds like us who don't want to use it for <nerdy reasons>.

  523. mukt2 has joined

  524. Guus has joined

  525. wladmis has left

  526. SamWhited

    Although I also don't understand the goal. It sounds like we're saying "the goal is a general audience, but advertise to the nerd crowd". Whereas if the goal is just to expand XMPP use among the nerd crowd it might make more sense to advertise to them. Maybe we need a clear goal first.

  527. Ge0rG

    SamWhited: yes, that'd be good

  528. MattJ

    From my perspective: I have my own clear goals, XMPP is coming along for the ride. I don't think you can successfully advertise XMPP to non-nerds (and goodness knows I spent a *long* time doing that, with minimal success)

  529. MattJ

    So I'd rather advertise something more concrete, and use that as the gateway to federation, decentralization, software choice and all the good stuff

  530. MattJ

    Advertising the latter features, which are just concepts, doesn't really help

  531. Kev

    I don't disagree. I've wanted to do Snikket(sp?) (equivalent) for years, but haven't been able to resource it.

  532. MattJ

    People will see you pushing decentralization, and agree. And they'll stop there. Maybe they'll make an account on a public server. But then they'll stop there. Or maybe they manage to convince a friend. But it 99.9% of the time stops there.

  533. chronosx88 has left

  534. chronosx88 has joined

  535. Guus has left

  536. MattJ

    The friction to onboard friends and family (let alone strangers) is too high, there are too many factors and choices involved

  537. Zash

    Decentralization sounds good, but the problems it solves are kinda abstract

  538. MattJ

    But as I said, I'm not against us (as the XSF) pushing decentralization, it's good to make people aware of it

  539. MattJ

    But as a reaction to the WhatsApp thing, if we're expecting users to flock to "XMPP" like they flocked to Signal, that's just not even remotely possible

  540. Kev

    I think the XSF pushes (or should) XMPP as a solution to people building things. And then those things are pushed to users.

  541. MattJ

    I agree

  542. MattJ

    And we surely have a lot of work to do in that area alone

  543. Kev

    Building things might be chat for an MMO, or it might be a private federated chat network, or it might be an XMPP client, but ... yeah.

  544. Zash

    Make XMPP good so people want to use it to build things, the XSF TL;DR mission statement?

  545. Kev

    (Or it might be a Snikket)

  546. Kev

    Zash: +1

  547. wladmis has joined

  548. MattJ

    Targeting WhatsApp users is far less productive for XMPP than targeting developers with the potential to build the next successful decentralized messaging app

  549. MattJ

    Right now most of those people are being attracted to Matrix (and I don't blame them)

  550. Zash

    I note that the XSF doesn't have as goal to maximize users, while the Matrix foundation do.

  551. MattJ

    I don't think that's unfixable, and I think there's plenty of room for both protocols to exist. It would be good to provide some resources comparing the two, for example

  552. Kev

    Zash: I think the XSF should resonably have a goal to attract users, but users of XMPP are people building things.

  553. MattJ

    and an intro to the XMPP ecosystem, which is something I also would like to see produced

  554. Kev

    I did try to do that some years ago, when I pushed for a certain book. I'm not sure how successful it was though.

  555. MattJ

    Sure, the book helped

  556. chronosx88 has left

  557. chronosx88 has joined

  558. MattJ

    But it was one thing, we need to keep up that kind of thing... times have changed, a new book is needed :)

  559. Kev

    Or a new revision ;)

  560. wladmis has left

  561. wladmis has joined

  562. Guus has joined

  563. Ge0rG

    Or both!

  564. SamWhited

    I tend to agree with all of that and that we *should* advertise to the nerd crowd FWIW, but if so we need to be clear about what our goals are. It sounded before like we were saying the goal was the general population (in which case we should not advertise to the nerd crowd)

  565. mukt2 has left

  566. alacer has left

  567. chronosx88 has left

  568. chronosx88 has joined

  569. alacer has joined

  570. wladmis has left

  571. papatutuwawa has joined

  572. marek has left

  573. emus

    I think we are able to attract both sides. We just lack the people. Everyone I told who got the idea was convinced its good. Techie or not. And I think we should not refuse to have a valid statement with what we do but also be proud.

  574. Ge0rG

    The XSF is notoriously bad at providing content for end-users.

  575. Ge0rG

    It's slightly less bad at providing content for developers. No idea if we should focus our marketing on either as long as we don't have the content resources

  576. Ge0rG

    But OTOH it's better to have marketing to attract people who might help improve the situation, than to get lost

  577. Zash

    If we lack people, we should start by attracting people who can attract more people... I have no idea how to do that.

  578. mukt2 has joined

  579. emus

    Ge0rG: I see that. I just wanted to keep the horizon open for thinking

  580. Andrzej has joined

  581. peetah has left

  582. peetah has joined

  583. mukt2 has left

  584. marek has joined

  585. purplebeetroot has joined

  586. andrey.g has joined

  587. Zash

    PSA: Going to upgrade the wiki, with me luck

  588. Ge0rG checks calendar: Not Friday

  589. Ge0rG

    Zash: please go ahead!

  590. mukt2 has joined

  591. Ge0rG

    MediaWiki 1.35.1 LocalSettings.php not found. Please set up the wiki first.

  592. Andrzej has left

  593. deuill has left

  594. mukt2 has left

  595. Calvin has joined

  596. deuill has joined

  597. edhelas has left

  598. edhelas has joined

  599. andy has left

  600. andy has joined

  601. krauq has left

  602. krauq has joined

  603. emus has left

  604. emus has joined

  605. marc has left

  606. wladmis has joined

  607. deuill

    Related to the discussion above: isn't advocacy better managed by a separate, product organisation? That is, one that has a primary remit that isn't producing and promoting technical solutions.

  608. Zash

    Like, an XMPP Software Foundation?

  609. marc has joined

  610. Ge0rG

    Zash: a Jabber Software Foundation

  611. Zash

    PSA: Wiki upgrade should be done now.

  612. deuill

    Perhaps, yeah (not sure if that already exists and I'm betraying my ignorance here), but perhaps something closer to what Snikket is.

  613. Zash

    Ge0rG, try it on mobile? 😉

  614. SamWhited

    +1 to deuill's comment about advocacy. I've looked into that once or twice in a semi-serious way, but always decided there wouldn't be enough interest from people with appropriate skill sets to start it, unfortunately. It was all very unscientific though, so who knows.

  615. Ge0rG

    Zash: thanks, much better now!

  616. Ge0rG

    the main page with two columns is still not perfect, but all the others are much nicer

  617. deuill has left

  618. papatutuwawa has left

  619. deuill has joined

  620. purplebeetroot has left

  621. purplebeetroot has joined

  622. emus

    deuill: I think we should not split up again ressources

  623. andrey.g has left

  624. deuill has left

  625. Zash

    Having a separate organization can help focus, but there is of coures some overhead

  626. krauq has left

  627. krauq has joined

  628. purplebeetroot has left

  629. purplebeetroot has joined

  630. deuill has joined

  631. mukt2 has joined

  632. marc has left

  633. marc has joined

  634. wladmis has left

  635. wladmis has joined

  636. mukt2 has left

  637. purplebeetroot has left

  638. Andrzej has joined

  639. lskdjf has left

  640. lskdjf has joined

  641. purplebeetroot has joined

  642. Andrzej has left

  643. chronosx88 has left

  644. chronosx88 has joined

  645. Guus has left

  646. Guus has joined

  647. Guus has left

  648. Guus has joined

  649. lskdjf has left

  650. emus

    Yes, but I specifically disagree to decentralise anything else in organisational questions within XMPP/XSF

  651. emus

    Actually, I just saw Mongoose wrote something, so even they took a while, which is fine to my understanding.

  652. emus

    Actually, I just saw Mongoose wrote something, so even they took a while, which is fine in my view.

  653. wladmis has left

  654. deuill

    I realize this discussion has probably been had to death before, but I don't necessarily think it's about splitting resources. Whether the XSF umbrella should grow or whether there should be a separate organization, there is nothing on the XSF roadmap that is anywhere close to advocacy of things built on top of XMPP (rather than the specifications themselves).

  655. wladmis has joined

  656. neshtaxmpp has left

  657. stpeter has joined

  658. stpeter has left

  659. deuill

    And there's no reason for it to be there -- the XSF is (AFAICT) aimed at developing standards, not necessarily the promotion of products built upon these standards.

  660. Zash

    Myeah, compare with the W3C or IETF.

  661. mathieui

    (the issue being, people in the XSF are already in other orgs, such as software projects, or server hosting, or companies, and having yet another hat that has to find funding for its activities has to be a pain in the neck)

  662. mathieui

    (I’m not involving myself in promotional stuff because I am terribad at it, and also have not time)

  663. deuill

    Oh yeah absolutely. I'd probably also say that promoting a specific piece of software as "blessed" might be contentious in and of itself.

  664. mathieui

    let’s not go too far into the topic of the XSF’s "neutral stance", too much time has already been spent on this

  665. Adi has left

  666. neshtaxmpp has joined

  667. deuill

    The reason I say this, again, as an outsider, is: even if your audience is engineering types, the most common entry-point into the XMPP ecosystem is very likely the products built on top of it.

  668. SamWhited

    Exactly. We've already decided to have a neutral stance, for better or for worse, so if we want something to promote anything with a non-neutral stance we have to create it. Unless we want to rehash the XSF's position on that yet again.

  669. Adi has joined

  670. neshtaxmpp has left

  671. Kev has left

  672. Kev has joined

  673. wladmis has left

  674. neshtaxmpp has joined

  675. neshtaxmpp has left

  676. neshtaxmpp has joined

  677. wladmis has joined

  678. neshtaxmpp has left

  679. alameyo has left

  680. neshtaxmpp has joined

  681. lskdjf has joined

  682. emus has left

  683. emus has joined

  684. Ge0rG

    SamWhited: is that equivalent to "we should not do any promotion that fits our neutral stance"?

  685. Link Mauve has joined

  686. emus

    I think being neutral does not mean we should act as a mute person. Just imagine how not clear the xmpp network is for externals (and also internals)

  687. lskdjf has left

  688. lskdjf has joined

  689. lskdjf has left

  690. lskdjf has joined

  691. purplebeetroot has left

  692. purplebeetroot has joined

  693. Steve Kille has left

  694. Steve Kille has joined

  695. emus has left

  696. emus has joined

  697. emus has left

  698. SamWhited

    Ge0rG: no, I don't understand how that would follow

  699. lskdjf has left

  700. lskdjf has joined

  701. Ge0rG

    I don't know. Maybe I'm still looking for ideas on what the XSF *should* do in terms of marketing

  702. lskdjf has left

  703. lskdjf has joined

  704. emus has joined

  705. lskdjf has left

  706. lskdjf has joined

  707. Steve Kille has left

  708. mukt2 has joined

  709. SamWhited

    I think we already talked about that. Decide what audience we want to reach first

  710. Steve Kille has joined

  711. purplebeetroot has left

  712. lskdjf has left

  713. lskdjf has joined

  714. lskdjf has left

  715. lskdjf has joined

  716. mukt2 has left

  717. krauq has left

  718. andrey.g has joined

  719. krauq has joined

  720. mathijs has left

  721. Kev has left

  722. Andrzej has joined

  723. lskdjf has left

  724. lskdjf has joined

  725. eevvoor has left

  726. papatutuwawa has joined

  727. stpeter has joined

  728. stpeter has left

  729. purplebeetroot has joined

  730. mathijs has joined

  731. Steve Kille has left

  732. andrey.g has left

  733. Steve Kille has joined

  734. purplebeetroot has left

  735. werdan has joined

  736. Yagiza has left

  737. toko has left

  738. neshtaxmpp has left

  739. paul has left

  740. paul has joined

  741. chronosx88 has left

  742. Guus has left

  743. stpeter has joined

  744. stpeter has left

  745. Dele Olajide has left

  746. paul has left

  747. paul has joined

  748. andrey.g has joined

  749. emus has left

  750. emus has joined

  751. werdan has left

  752. Andrzej has left

  753. floretta has left

  754. floretta has joined

  755. lskdjf has left

  756. lskdjf has joined

  757. mukt2 has joined

  758. stpeter has joined

  759. stpeter has left

  760. lskdjf has left

  761. lskdjf has joined

  762. sidereal

    It is possible to have a Websocket BOSH hybrid for XMPP? Websockets is modern and for HTML5, while it lacks the speed of BOSH for intermittent networks.

  763. Ge0rG

    sidereal: what do you mean by speed of BOSH?

  764. sidereal


  765. flow

    sidereal, where does BOSH introduce reliablity that WebSockets do not have?

  766. Ge0rG

    What's reliable about it?

  767. flow

    probably only if you would use a new TCP connection for every BOSH request

  768. flow

    but I always assumed that modern HTTP libraries try to reuse the TCP connection

  769. sidereal

    latency, I suppose

  770. Ge0rG

    I suppose the way out is using XEP-0198 over WebSocket

  771. Zash

    Well BOSH can survive network changes better than WS or TCP

  772. flow

    Zash, how's that?

  773. Ge0rG

    sidereal: latency, reliability and speed are all different things

  774. Zash

    Since it goes over HTTP requests

  775. flow

    Zash, right, but aren't those used over the same TCP connection in some (many?) cases?

  776. flow

    Zash, right, but aren't those HTTP requests performed over the same TCP connection in some (many?) cases?

  777. Ge0rG

    How do browsers realize that an existing connection is dead?

  778. sidereal

    thanks Zash and Ge0rG.

  779. flow

    Ge0rG, not sure if they do it on "desktop" platforms like on linux

  780. sidereal

    yes, Ge0rG, they're different, on an intermittent network, they go hand in hand

  781. flow

    but Android tells Chrome when there is a network change, and I think Chrome reacts to that

  782. Ge0rG

    flow: my chromium is hanging when I try to open github in a new tab, because an old tab is hanging somewhere

  783. Ge0rG

    sidereal: but they have a significant overhead cost

  784. Ge0rG

    Both on the server and on the mobile data counters

  785. Ge0rG

    Also I'm not sure how much better BOSH is behaving when a given request hangs

  786. sidereal

    conversations.im uses both stream management (XEP-0198) and Websockets. So does stream management make up for difference between BOSH and Websockets?

  787. Zash

    Ge0rG, in theory you can re-try a failed request.

  788. Ge0rG

    sidereal: partially

  789. mukt2 has left

  790. flow

    Zash, I guess you not only re-try failed requests, but also re-issue outstanding requests

  791. flow

    Zash, I guess you could not only re-try failed requests, but also re-issue outstanding requests

  792. Zash

    yep, because sequence numbers

  793. sidereal

    For what would be best for a mobile phone, or an intermittent network. XMPP holds a stream alive to have a conversation. Text messages on the other hand, send a message then don't hold a connection stream open, which uses up bandwidth. When there are local emergencies for instance or during rush hour, texts allow people to communicate without clogging the network system

  794. Ge0rG

    sidereal: an open connection requires very little traffic as opposed to periodic polling with BOSH

  795. sidereal

    Bosh and maybe Websockets make sense for that, to not require a stream on the mobile end.

  796. Mikaela has left

  797. Mikaela has joined

  798. sidereal

    it does? with XMPP, the connection drops easily on its own, by the nature of the network, then XMPP reestablishes the link and resends the XML data. It's not only the message, it's the message plus the handshake and resending headers and XML tags

  799. sidereal

    So Websockets and Stream Management together are good enough, or better than BOSH?

  800. MattJ

    and with BOSH it's resending the TLS handshake and HTTP headers

  801. MattJ

    Seems like what you're asking for is push notifications, which are already supported in all servers and mobile clients

  802. MattJ

    It's the same thing essentially, but it's the mobile OS that maintains the connection

  803. MattJ

    Both Android and iOS do this already

  804. sidereal

    it would have to, to remain secure? I would think that would be less traffic, as opposed to resending all of the data with XML and handshakes.

  805. MattJ

    Apple's was (is??) based on XMPP

  806. Mikaela has left

  807. Mikaela has joined

  808. Zash

    Wasn't Googles too? Firebase?

  809. MattJ

    Google's was never XMPP to the device

  810. MattJ

    But you could push to it via XMPP

  811. sidereal

    many used XMPP

  812. MattJ

    i.e. to Google

  813. peetah has left

  814. peetah has joined

  815. sidereal

    XEP-0357 Push Notifications: informs users of new messages, when their clients aren't online. These indications are delivered through a mobile network

  816. mukt2 has joined

  817. Ge0rG

    MattJ: Android around 1.0 exposed an XMPP API, so I'm pretty sure it was internally using that for push

  818. MattJ


  819. marc has left

  820. Arne has left

  821. Arne has joined

  822. lskdjf has left

  823. lskdjf has joined

  824. krauq has left

  825. krauq has joined

  826. Ge0rG

    Maybe not for push after all https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2008/08/some-information-on-apis-removed-in.html

  827. lskdjf has left

  828. lskdjf has joined

  829. marc has joined

  830. mukt2 has left

  831. lskdjf has left

  832. lskdjf has joined

  833. flow

    the idea of Danger Inc. was to have inter-device intents that are transported via XMPP

  834. stpeter has joined

  835. stpeter has left

  836. Arne has left

  837. Arne has joined

  838. Guus has joined

  839. debacle has left

  840. debacle has joined

  841. lskdjf has left

  842. lskdjf has joined

  843. lskdjf has left

  844. lskdjf has joined

  845. Ge0rG

    But it became a danger?

  846. lskdjf has left

  847. lskdjf has joined

  848. Holger

    > But you could push to it via XMPP You can still I think?

  849. Ge0rG

    But nobody is using that? Instead, people run for the http api

  850. MattJ

    Holger, I vaguely recall some deprecation notice, but I may be wrong

  851. Holger


  852. Holger

    > Holger, I vaguely recall some deprecation notice, but I may be wrong Same here though 🙂

  853. mukt2 has joined

  854. chronosx88 has joined

  855. antranigv has left

  856. marc has left

  857. lskdjf has left

  858. lskdjf has joined

  859. lskdjf has left

  860. lskdjf has joined

  861. mukt2 has left

  862. lskdjf has left

  863. lskdjf has joined

  864. antranigv has joined

  865. peetah has left

  866. Wojtek has left

  867. peetah has joined

  868. benharri has joined

  869. lskdjf has left

  870. Lance has joined

  871. stpeter has joined

  872. stpeter has left

  873. Mikaela has left

  874. jcbrand has left

  875. antranigv has left

  876. goffi has left

  877. neshtaxmpp has joined

  878. Andrzej has joined

  879. Andrzej has left

  880. chronosx88 has left

  881. chronosx88 has joined

  882. krauq has left

  883. krauq has joined

  884. stpeter has joined

  885. stpeter has left

  886. lskdjf has joined

  887. chronosx88 has left

  888. lskdjf has left

  889. lskdjf has joined

  890. wladmis has left

  891. lskdjf has left

  892. lskdjf has joined

  893. Seve has left

  894. lskdjf has left

  895. alameyo has joined

  896. mukt2 has joined

  897. lskdjf has joined

  898. Arne has left

  899. nyco has left

  900. stpeter has joined

  901. stpeter has left

  902. mukt2 has left

  903. lskdjf has left

  904. lskdjf has joined

  905. lskdjf has left

  906. lskdjf has joined

  907. Vaulor has left

  908. Vaulor has joined

  909. andy has left

  910. mukt2 has joined

  911. papatutuwawa has left

  912. Vaulor has left

  913. Vaulor has joined

  914. lskdjf has left

  915. lskdjf has joined

  916. mukt2 has left

  917. Vaulor has left

  918. Vaulor has joined

  919. lskdjf has left

  920. lskdjf has joined

  921. alameyo has left

  922. lskdjf has left

  923. lskdjf has joined

  924. Vaulor has left

  925. Vaulor has joined

  926. lskdjf has left

  927. lskdjf has joined

  928. stpeter has joined

  929. stpeter has left

  930. Vaulor has left

  931. Vaulor has joined

  932. larma

    MattJ, Google was delivering push notifications through Google Talk for a few years. After they deprecated Google Talk, at some point they migrated to a protobuf based protocol for c2s. This protocol as of today still has iq and message stanzas and after login you're assigned a "JID" which has the form user@domain/resource. The hostname of the server endpoint is still mtalk.google.com and I'd guess that internally there infrastructure is still based on whatever their XMPP server was.

  933. larma

    MattJ, Google was delivering push notifications through Google Talk for a few years. After they deprecated Google Talk, at some point they migrated to a protobuf based protocol for c2s. This protocol as of today still has iq and message stanzas and after login you're assigned a "JID" which has the form user@domain/resource. The hostname of the server endpoint is still mtalk.google.com and I'd guess that internally their infrastructure is still based on whatever their XMPP server was.

  934. lskdjf has left

  935. lskdjf has joined

  936. Zash

    Probably a ton of cool code archeology in that code base by now 🙂

  937. Zash

    Isn't the WebRTC stack related to Jingle too?

  938. lskdjf has left

  939. lskdjf has joined

  940. Vaulor has left

  941. Vaulor has joined

  942. larma


  943. larma

    webrtc is based on porting google talk browser extension natively into the browser

  944. larma

    IIRC there are still jingle related code fragments in libwebrtc in chromium

  945. alameyo has joined

  946. edhelas has left

  947. edhelas has joined

  948. Vaulor has left

  949. Vaulor has joined

  950. lskdjf has left

  951. deuill has left

  952. lskdjf has joined

  953. deuill has joined

  954. larma

    https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/master:third_party/libjingle_xmpp/xmpp/xmppclient.cc 😉

  955. alameyo has left

  956. Alex has left

  957. deuill has left

  958. wurstsalat has left

  959. deuill has joined

  960. mukt2 has joined

  961. jcbrand has joined

  962. emus has left

  963. Vaulor has left

  964. Vaulor has joined