XSF Discussion - 2021-01-18

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  250. marc Did anybody notice an increase of users on its server during the last weeks / related to the WhatsApp "privacy policy change thing"?
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  256. Ge0rG marc: Signal did...
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  258. Ge0rG but yeah, it looks like I have 3x the number of new users per week for the last two or three weeks
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  274. marc I know that signal did ;)
  275. marc Ge0rG: cool!
  276. Ge0rG Did we send that tweet yet?
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  278. marc I don't think so
  279. marc Ge0rG: do you have public stats for yax.im?
  280. Ge0rG marc: no
  281. mathieui marc, here not much difference on active users, but on the other hand we never had that many MUC users
  282. marc mathieui: I mean registered users on a server
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  286. mdosch Anyone looked at the public jabber.fr stats? Do they also increase as yax.ims?
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  289. marc mdosch: do they have public stats?
  290. jonas’ https://stats.jabberfr.org/
  291. jonas’ no effect in the past 90 days
  292. jonas’ there is a fake-effect in the past 30 days for active client connections, but if you go back further you notice that it’s just the recovery from the holiday drop off
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  296. mdosch Maybe that chapril is more popular now in France?
  297. mathieui mdosch, I was talking about the jabber.fr stats
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  301. Ge0rG https://op-co.de/tmp/yax.im-registration-peak-whatsapp.png
  302. Ge0rG marc: ^
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  322. edhelas It seems that I have a light bump on movim.eu
  323. edhelas I'll try to do statistics
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  327. marc Ge0rG: wow, quite significant
  328. mdosch yax.im is the new WhatsApp!
  329. Ge0rG marc: I didn't filter for spam bots
  330. marc I see
  331. marc What's running on jabberfr?
  332. jonas’ prosody
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  335. edhelas I ~doubled the registration per day on my side
  336. edhelas moving from 10 to 20
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  338. edhelas I have a captcha, and i've checked the JIDs, they seems legit
  339. marc Would be nice to have more stats for all the public servers
  340. edhelas that's what I was proposing
  341. edhelas would be nice to have a XEP to allow a little IQ request
  342. edhelas returning some general statistics
  343. marc Yes
  344. mdosch Like the module for the-federation.info?
  345. edhelas kinda
  346. marc But xmpp specific
  347. mdosch There are already xmpp servers reporting.
  348. Zash 39? Or what number the stats xep had
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  350. jonas’ give me something to scrape, I’ll add it to s.j.n
  351. marc Next project is better stats for ejabberd, then I will look into this topic more
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  354. mdosch jonas’: https://mdosch.de/.well-known/x-nodeinfo2
  355. mdosch https://jabber.fr/.well-known/x-nodeinfo2
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  359. emus > Ge0rG escribió: > Did we send that tweet yet? Im working on this + a blog post
  360. jonas’ mdosch, can I get that over XMPP?
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  363. mdosch Afaik this module only serves the .well-known URL: https://modules.prosody.im/mod_nodeinfo2.html
  364. mdosch But maybe another module does, dunno.
  365. mdosch https://modules.prosody.im/mod_pubsub_stats.html Maybe
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  367. edhelas marc that would also greatly help with the "pick a XMPP server" thing
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  377. Ge0rG emus: I would have appreciated tweeting a first reaction when the situation was in the headlines, and to follow-up with a blog post later
  378. jonas’ half a week later it’s so old news, no point in tweeting anything
  379. Ge0rG emus: as it looks now, WhatsApp's new ToS will come back in May, so we need to have something robust prepared for around mid-April
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  381. jonas’ snikket with iOS? :)
  382. Ge0rG jonas’: it's been ten days by now
  383. jonas’ Ge0rG, thanks
  384. Ge0rG jonas’: but I fully agree with your point
  385. Ge0rG (if that didn't become apparent from my previous statement, already)
  386. dwd How can we improve our social media "reaction time"?
  387. jonas’ have a paid person doing this a fixed amount of time per week
  388. Ge0rG dwd: have a dedicated person for that
  389. Ge0rG somebody who's familiar with the ecosystem or can consult the right people™ on short notice in a MUC
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  392. dwd Ge0rG, I think we do have some people doing that. Are they sufficiently empowered and confident enoughto propose and post quickly?
  393. Ge0rG dwd: apparently not
  394. dwd No, I agree. How can we change that? (And, FWIW, I don't know who these people are, which - as a Board member - is pretty rubbish of me).
  395. Zash Isn't Board the one with final responsibility?
  396. Ge0rG dwd: I did a quick&dirty tweet suggestion on commteam@, on December 8th. I hoped there would be discussion/feedback on the comment, or somebody with twitter rights would pick it up.
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  398. Ge0rG dwd: probably what really is needed ia an authoritative person to drive the social media, so that there is no question on who should do the follow-up work
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  400. dwd Zash, Yes. But it's sared across the Board. I think we probably need a single person to have the final say, with a policy driven by Board.
  401. Ge0rG As it is now, there are multiple volunteers, and I can understand if they all don't have the resources / think that one of the other folks would do something™
  402. dwd Ge0rG, Shared responsibility doesn't multiply, it divides, indeed.
  403. Zash Tragedy of the commons 😕
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  408. Ge0rG dwd: and I suppose that having a 70% perfect tweet at the right time is much better than having a perfect tweet two weeks late
  409. Ge0rG (no parallels to vaccination strategies intended)
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  413. MattJ 100% agree that someone needs responsibility over social media. I'm starting to feel the same way about SCAM as well right now, to be honest. It's not clear what the status is, if anything of FOSDEM and summit.
  414. Ge0rG part of the responsibility should be updating schedules on the wiki
  415. dwd Ge0rG, The enemy of the good tweet is several weeks bikeshedding about the perfect one, I agree. But Board does need to agree on what "Good" looks like.
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  418. Ge0rG dwd: it should suffice for Board to define the basic rules for what "Good" looks like, not to decide on each individual tweet
  419. Ge0rG Otherwise we'll only ever tweet on friday evenings.
  420. dwd Ge0rG, Absolutely. Policy not control.
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  422. jonas’ Ge0rG, s/December/January/?
  423. Ge0rG jonas’: oh sorry, indeed.
  424. Ge0rG I'm still caught in 2020
  425. jonas’ who isn’t
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  427. Zash Wake me up when March ends
  428. Ge0rG Zash: we are still in September. September 1993
  429. dwd Reminds me, I plotted the time between a message and a displayed marker on our network across 2020. (Actually average of the fastest 90%, since there's a really long tail). It's pretty muhc inversely proportional to COVID-19 caseloads.
  430. Ge0rG dwd: can you publish a nice marketing write-up on that?
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  433. Ge0rG My server will only retain the last 14 days, and even then it's probably illegal for me to aggregate that data.
  434. Ge0rG It's sad to see April 2020 as the first item under "Recent Events", and no mention of Board / membership elections
  435. Ge0rG Upcoming: Google Summer of Code 2020
  436. Ge0rG We really need to assign somebody to maintain the wiki frontpage
  437. emus > Ge0rG escribió: > emus: as it looks now, WhatsApp's new ToS will come back in May, so we need to have something robust prepared for around mid-April I refuse to jump on each hype train on the opposite. Therefore I take sometime to think what I wanted to say to said. But also I dont have a lot time to do quick reactions always. Yes, if XSF wants quick reactions, we need to hire people for that and other things as well I guess. Anyway, I personally do not share those shorttime reactions/impressions as people usually do.
  438. Zash Ge0rG, how about you?
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  441. dwd Ge0rG, I think we will be; however I did most of our analysis on a subsection of our data relating to Defence Medical Services, so I'll probably redo the data across all our users (and probably focus the Blog post on NHS data).
  442. Ge0rG emus: I'm just comparing the public statements of a different federated IM network, and they are doing significantly better. This is not a criticism on anybody involved in our volunteer work, just a thought on what we could be able to improve
  443. dwd Ge0rG, "redo the data" is just re-migrate through the new server's archiving code which does most of this analysis on the fly.
  444. jonas’ I hate to ask this
  445. jonas’ ubt
  446. Ge0rG emus: but I think that we need to be able to do such short-term hype reactions, even if we all dislike this kind of activity
  447. jonas’ but as it happens, I am around-ish most of the time anyway
  448. jonas’ can I haz twitter access?
  449. Kev jonas': I can hand out Twitter access, but would rather be directed by someone on Board to do so.
  450. Ge0rG dwd: that sounds really intriguing
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  452. Ge0rG I'd love to see jonas’ as our Social Media Representative
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  454. jonas’ Ge0rG, haha, no
  455. jonas’ just as a twitter proofreader and proxy
  456. jonas’ I’m not going to write stuff
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  458. Ge0rG Zash: I absolutely lack the time to take any additional workload
  459. dwd Ge0rG, Fairly tightly coupled into our tech stack, though. But lots of its ideas could be reused in other servers.
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  462. emus Ge0rG: Sorry, till thursday last week I had no time for xmpp stuff 🤷‍♂️But as said Im on it. As there is no real holistic onboarding strategy within XMPP a quick thing wont bring us tot he front. Also each project advertises themselves for onboarding. So, if one wants to drop a short tweet is fine. I see my role in thinking about what we want actually say in general and give a proper response. I think that is one outcome in the blog post
  463. Ge0rG emus: I agree on the holistic strategy, and it's a significant second part of marketing
  464. Ge0rG emus: regarding project-oriented advertising, I think that there is a place for those, but there is also a place for advertising the federated ecosystem as a whole
  465. emus Im sure this topic will be there on 8th of feb again or when ever they hit the ground with that. Im not afraid of "missing the right time" here. If we want to make a difference we shouldnt fear to just go crazy as all the others did. but give me another 24 hrs for the first review.
  466. emus > Ge0rG escribió: > emus: regarding project-oriented advertising, I think that there is a place for those, but there is also a place for advertising the federated ecosystem as a whole Ok, but what exactly you mean
  467. Ge0rG emus: the ToS enforcement has been delayed, at least for the EU, into May
  468. Ge0rG emus: essentially what I proposed to tweet ten days ago. Advertising the federated XMPP network
  469. MattJ I'm not against it, but it won't do much good
  470. emus okay, ah thats what you meant
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  472. Ge0rG MattJ: what would you propose, that does more good?
  473. Ge0rG Maybe we can start writing down an @xmpp Social Media Policy in the wiki?
  474. emus Ge0rG: I know, but I prefered to write up something more thoroughly (no offence)
  475. MattJ People have been pusing XMPP in various places the past few weeks, but pushing "XMPP" as an alternative to "WhatsApp" is a joke for all but 0.5% of WhatsApp users
  476. MattJ They are looking for something they can search for on the Play/App store, and install it and move on
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  478. Ge0rG emus: and that's great as well. But we could pitch a short-term "hi we are here" first, and then follow-up with a blog-post and another round of twitter then
  479. MattJ They're not interested in our little war against silos
  480. Ge0rG MattJ: like... https://joinjabber.org/
  481. MattJ Stuff like that is a step in the right direction, yes
  482. emus > MattJ escribió: > They're not interested in our little war against silos And that is what I try to make a statement about
  483. dwd emus, What do you mean?
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  485. emus > Ge0rG escribió: > emus: and that's great as well. But we could pitch a short-term "hi we are here" first, and then follow-up with a blog-post and another round of twitter then I know, but I had absolutely no time. Sorry for that.
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  489. Ge0rG emus: not criticising you, just saying that it would be great to have somebody who has a time budget allocated to this
  490. dwd MattJ, FWIW, I think people broadly do care about decentralization. Just not as much as they care about talking to their friends.
  491. emus > dwd escribió: > emus, What do you mean? That it is a question of technology, not of the messenger. but as said, gonna sent my suggestion soon
  492. MattJ dwd, I think that among the general population (let's say WhatsApp users), you'll find less than 20% who care or understand decentralization
  493. MattJ and a far smaller fraction of them are willing/able to actually do something about it when presented with the xmpp.org website
  494. Ge0rG MattJ: but it makes sense to target the nerds with content regarding "easy setup of an encrypted-by-default family chat", and those will convince the larger populace
  495. jonas’ yep
  496. Ge0rG I agree that the XMPP marketing target audience is not regular people but nerds
  497. jonas’ for example, a Snikket
  498. dwd MattJ, I think that more people care in general, broad terms. But yes, I agree few will do anything about it - in part because fundamentally, people just want top talk to their friends and family.
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  507. emus > Ge0rG escribió: > MattJ: but it makes sense to target the nerds with content regarding "easy setup of an encrypted-by-default family chat", and those will convince the larger populace good point
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  509. SamWhited How's that working out so far with everybodies friends/family/etc.? (I'm being facetious of course, but I don't think that's true at all: the nerds are almost never the ones to be the early adopters of a technology that gets it off the ground I suspect)
  510. yushyin I've not succeeded in introducing xmpp as a family chat because of the lack of featureful clients (especially for iOS)
  511. MattJ SamWhited, I think you're wrong, but as someone who has spent over a year trying to make that happen...
  512. MattJ My family are all using XMPP, except for the few iPhone users
  513. MattJ So 11 family members, and hopefully 3 more to be added once iOS is ready
  514. SamWhited MattJ: and are they spreading it outside of your family to their friends and your extended family?
  515. Zash Haven't heard much complaints, tho there's that one iOS user who unfortunately is still left out 😕
  516. MattJ SamWhited, no, but I'm hoping to fix that very soon
  517. MattJ Sponsored the new feature in Conversations that allows you to invite new contacts
  518. Ge0rG SamWhited: I've introduced XMPP as the sole mean to do IM with me, and it looks like five family members use it to communicate with me, except when their videos exceed the http file upload size
  519. MattJ and my wife is looking forward to that
  520. SamWhited I suspect it's exactly the opposite. The nerds all join new shiny things quickly, then something else picks up steam, the nerds resist it for as long as possible, but then everyone else has gotten on Facebook Messenger or whatever and eventually the nerds capitulate and use it. Advertising to a tiny fraction of people is never going to cause something to spread widely.
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  522. SamWhited There's a lot of small groups and "except's" in these examples. Facebook (or whomever) wins because they have large group and very few "excepts". The "excepts" that they do have are likely the nerds like us who don't want to use it for <nerdy reasons>.
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  526. SamWhited Although I also don't understand the goal. It sounds like we're saying "the goal is a general audience, but advertise to the nerd crowd". Whereas if the goal is just to expand XMPP use among the nerd crowd it might make more sense to advertise to them. Maybe we need a clear goal first.
  527. Ge0rG SamWhited: yes, that'd be good
  528. MattJ From my perspective: I have my own clear goals, XMPP is coming along for the ride. I don't think you can successfully advertise XMPP to non-nerds (and goodness knows I spent a *long* time doing that, with minimal success)
  529. MattJ So I'd rather advertise something more concrete, and use that as the gateway to federation, decentralization, software choice and all the good stuff
  530. MattJ Advertising the latter features, which are just concepts, doesn't really help
  531. Kev I don't disagree. I've wanted to do Snikket(sp?) (equivalent) for years, but haven't been able to resource it.
  532. MattJ People will see you pushing decentralization, and agree. And they'll stop there. Maybe they'll make an account on a public server. But then they'll stop there. Or maybe they manage to convince a friend. But it 99.9% of the time stops there.
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  536. MattJ The friction to onboard friends and family (let alone strangers) is too high, there are too many factors and choices involved
  537. Zash Decentralization sounds good, but the problems it solves are kinda abstract
  538. MattJ But as I said, I'm not against us (as the XSF) pushing decentralization, it's good to make people aware of it
  539. MattJ But as a reaction to the WhatsApp thing, if we're expecting users to flock to "XMPP" like they flocked to Signal, that's just not even remotely possible
  540. Kev I think the XSF pushes (or should) XMPP as a solution to people building things. And then those things are pushed to users.
  541. MattJ I agree
  542. MattJ And we surely have a lot of work to do in that area alone
  543. Kev Building things might be chat for an MMO, or it might be a private federated chat network, or it might be an XMPP client, but ... yeah.
  544. Zash Make XMPP good so people want to use it to build things, the XSF TL;DR mission statement?
  545. Kev (Or it might be a Snikket)
  546. Kev Zash: +1
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  548. MattJ Targeting WhatsApp users is far less productive for XMPP than targeting developers with the potential to build the next successful decentralized messaging app
  549. MattJ Right now most of those people are being attracted to Matrix (and I don't blame them)
  550. Zash I note that the XSF doesn't have as goal to maximize users, while the Matrix foundation do.
  551. MattJ I don't think that's unfixable, and I think there's plenty of room for both protocols to exist. It would be good to provide some resources comparing the two, for example
  552. Kev Zash: I think the XSF should resonably have a goal to attract users, but users of XMPP are people building things.
  553. MattJ and an intro to the XMPP ecosystem, which is something I also would like to see produced
  554. Kev I did try to do that some years ago, when I pushed for a certain book. I'm not sure how successful it was though.
  555. MattJ Sure, the book helped
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  558. MattJ But it was one thing, we need to keep up that kind of thing... times have changed, a new book is needed :)
  559. Kev Or a new revision ;)
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  563. Ge0rG Or both!
  564. SamWhited I tend to agree with all of that and that we *should* advertise to the nerd crowd FWIW, but if so we need to be clear about what our goals are. It sounded before like we were saying the goal was the general population (in which case we should not advertise to the nerd crowd)
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  573. emus I think we are able to attract both sides. We just lack the people. Everyone I told who got the idea was convinced its good. Techie or not. And I think we should not refuse to have a valid statement with what we do but also be proud.
  574. Ge0rG The XSF is notoriously bad at providing content for end-users.
  575. Ge0rG It's slightly less bad at providing content for developers. No idea if we should focus our marketing on either as long as we don't have the content resources
  576. Ge0rG But OTOH it's better to have marketing to attract people who might help improve the situation, than to get lost
  577. Zash If we lack people, we should start by attracting people who can attract more people... I have no idea how to do that.
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  579. emus Ge0rG: I see that. I just wanted to keep the horizon open for thinking
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  587. Zash PSA: Going to upgrade the wiki, with me luck
  588. Ge0rG checks calendar: Not Friday
  589. Ge0rG Zash: please go ahead!
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  591. Ge0rG MediaWiki 1.35.1 LocalSettings.php not found. Please set up the wiki first.
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  607. deuill Related to the discussion above: isn't advocacy better managed by a separate, product organisation? That is, one that has a primary remit that isn't producing and promoting technical solutions.
  608. Zash Like, an XMPP Software Foundation?
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  610. Ge0rG Zash: a Jabber Software Foundation
  611. Zash PSA: Wiki upgrade should be done now.
  612. deuill Perhaps, yeah (not sure if that already exists and I'm betraying my ignorance here), but perhaps something closer to what Snikket is.
  613. Zash Ge0rG, try it on mobile? 😉
  614. SamWhited +1 to deuill's comment about advocacy. I've looked into that once or twice in a semi-serious way, but always decided there wouldn't be enough interest from people with appropriate skill sets to start it, unfortunately. It was all very unscientific though, so who knows.
  615. Ge0rG Zash: thanks, much better now!
  616. Ge0rG the main page with two columns is still not perfect, but all the others are much nicer
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  622. emus deuill: I think we should not split up again ressources
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  625. Zash Having a separate organization can help focus, but there is of coures some overhead
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  650. emus Yes, but I specifically disagree to decentralise anything else in organisational questions within XMPP/XSF
  651. emus Actually, I just saw Mongoose wrote something, so even they took a while, which is fine to my understanding.
  652. emus Actually, I just saw Mongoose wrote something, so even they took a while, which is fine in my view.
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  654. deuill I realize this discussion has probably been had to death before, but I don't necessarily think it's about splitting resources. Whether the XSF umbrella should grow or whether there should be a separate organization, there is nothing on the XSF roadmap that is anywhere close to advocacy of things built on top of XMPP (rather than the specifications themselves).
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  659. deuill And there's no reason for it to be there -- the XSF is (AFAICT) aimed at developing standards, not necessarily the promotion of products built upon these standards.
  660. Zash Myeah, compare with the W3C or IETF.
  661. mathieui (the issue being, people in the XSF are already in other orgs, such as software projects, or server hosting, or companies, and having yet another hat that has to find funding for its activities has to be a pain in the neck)
  662. mathieui (I’m not involving myself in promotional stuff because I am terribad at it, and also have not time)
  663. deuill Oh yeah absolutely. I'd probably also say that promoting a specific piece of software as "blessed" might be contentious in and of itself.
  664. mathieui let’s not go too far into the topic of the XSF’s "neutral stance", too much time has already been spent on this
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  667. deuill The reason I say this, again, as an outsider, is: even if your audience is engineering types, the most common entry-point into the XMPP ecosystem is very likely the products built on top of it.
  668. SamWhited Exactly. We've already decided to have a neutral stance, for better or for worse, so if we want something to promote anything with a non-neutral stance we have to create it. Unless we want to rehash the XSF's position on that yet again.
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  684. Ge0rG SamWhited: is that equivalent to "we should not do any promotion that fits our neutral stance"?
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  686. emus I think being neutral does not mean we should act as a mute person. Just imagine how not clear the xmpp network is for externals (and also internals)
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  698. SamWhited Ge0rG: no, I don't understand how that would follow
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  701. Ge0rG I don't know. Maybe I'm still looking for ideas on what the XSF *should* do in terms of marketing
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  709. SamWhited I think we already talked about that. Decide what audience we want to reach first
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  762. sidereal It is possible to have a Websocket BOSH hybrid for XMPP? Websockets is modern and for HTML5, while it lacks the speed of BOSH for intermittent networks.
  763. Ge0rG sidereal: what do you mean by speed of BOSH?
  764. sidereal reliability
  765. flow sidereal, where does BOSH introduce reliablity that WebSockets do not have?
  766. Ge0rG What's reliable about it?
  767. flow probably only if you would use a new TCP connection for every BOSH request
  768. flow but I always assumed that modern HTTP libraries try to reuse the TCP connection
  769. sidereal latency, I suppose
  770. Ge0rG I suppose the way out is using XEP-0198 over WebSocket
  771. Zash Well BOSH can survive network changes better than WS or TCP
  772. flow Zash, how's that?
  773. Ge0rG sidereal: latency, reliability and speed are all different things
  774. Zash Since it goes over HTTP requests
  775. flow Zash, right, but aren't those used over the same TCP connection in some (many?) cases?
  776. flow Zash, right, but aren't those HTTP requests performed over the same TCP connection in some (many?) cases?
  777. Ge0rG How do browsers realize that an existing connection is dead?
  778. sidereal thanks Zash and Ge0rG.
  779. flow Ge0rG, not sure if they do it on "desktop" platforms like on linux
  780. sidereal yes, Ge0rG, they're different, on an intermittent network, they go hand in hand
  781. flow but Android tells Chrome when there is a network change, and I think Chrome reacts to that
  782. Ge0rG flow: my chromium is hanging when I try to open github in a new tab, because an old tab is hanging somewhere
  783. Ge0rG sidereal: but they have a significant overhead cost
  784. Ge0rG Both on the server and on the mobile data counters
  785. Ge0rG Also I'm not sure how much better BOSH is behaving when a given request hangs
  786. sidereal conversations.im uses both stream management (XEP-0198) and Websockets. So does stream management make up for difference between BOSH and Websockets?
  787. Zash Ge0rG, in theory you can re-try a failed request.
  788. Ge0rG sidereal: partially
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  790. flow Zash, I guess you not only re-try failed requests, but also re-issue outstanding requests
  791. flow Zash, I guess you could not only re-try failed requests, but also re-issue outstanding requests
  792. Zash yep, because sequence numbers
  793. sidereal For what would be best for a mobile phone, or an intermittent network. XMPP holds a stream alive to have a conversation. Text messages on the other hand, send a message then don't hold a connection stream open, which uses up bandwidth. When there are local emergencies for instance or during rush hour, texts allow people to communicate without clogging the network system
  794. Ge0rG sidereal: an open connection requires very little traffic as opposed to periodic polling with BOSH
  795. sidereal Bosh and maybe Websockets make sense for that, to not require a stream on the mobile end.
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  798. sidereal it does? with XMPP, the connection drops easily on its own, by the nature of the network, then XMPP reestablishes the link and resends the XML data. It's not only the message, it's the message plus the handshake and resending headers and XML tags
  799. sidereal So Websockets and Stream Management together are good enough, or better than BOSH?
  800. MattJ and with BOSH it's resending the TLS handshake and HTTP headers
  801. MattJ Seems like what you're asking for is push notifications, which are already supported in all servers and mobile clients
  802. MattJ It's the same thing essentially, but it's the mobile OS that maintains the connection
  803. MattJ Both Android and iOS do this already
  804. sidereal it would have to, to remain secure? I would think that would be less traffic, as opposed to resending all of the data with XML and handshakes.
  805. MattJ Apple's was (is??) based on XMPP
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  808. Zash Wasn't Googles too? Firebase?
  809. MattJ Google's was never XMPP to the device
  810. MattJ But you could push to it via XMPP
  811. sidereal many used XMPP
  812. MattJ i.e. to Google
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  815. sidereal XEP-0357 Push Notifications: informs users of new messages, when their clients aren't online. These indications are delivered through a mobile network
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  817. Ge0rG MattJ: Android around 1.0 exposed an XMPP API, so I'm pretty sure it was internally using that for push
  818. MattJ Fun
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  826. Ge0rG Maybe not for push after all https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2008/08/some-information-on-apis-removed-in.html
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  833. flow the idea of Danger Inc. was to have inter-device intents that are transported via XMPP
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  845. Ge0rG But it became a danger?
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  848. Holger > But you could push to it via XMPP You can still I think?
  849. Ge0rG But nobody is using that? Instead, people run for the http api
  850. MattJ Holger, I vaguely recall some deprecation notice, but I may be wrong
  851. Holger https://firebase.google.com/docs/cloud-messaging/xmpp-server-ref
  852. Holger > Holger, I vaguely recall some deprecation notice, but I may be wrong Same here though 🙂
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  932. larma MattJ, Google was delivering push notifications through Google Talk for a few years. After they deprecated Google Talk, at some point they migrated to a protobuf based protocol for c2s. This protocol as of today still has iq and message stanzas and after login you're assigned a "JID" which has the form user@domain/resource. The hostname of the server endpoint is still mtalk.google.com and I'd guess that internally there infrastructure is still based on whatever their XMPP server was.
  933. larma MattJ, Google was delivering push notifications through Google Talk for a few years. After they deprecated Google Talk, at some point they migrated to a protobuf based protocol for c2s. This protocol as of today still has iq and message stanzas and after login you're assigned a "JID" which has the form user@domain/resource. The hostname of the server endpoint is still mtalk.google.com and I'd guess that internally their infrastructure is still based on whatever their XMPP server was.
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  936. Zash Probably a ton of cool code archeology in that code base by now 🙂
  937. Zash Isn't the WebRTC stack related to Jingle too?
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  942. larma yes
  943. larma webrtc is based on porting google talk browser extension natively into the browser
  944. larma IIRC there are still jingle related code fragments in libwebrtc in chromium
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  954. larma https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/master:third_party/libjingle_xmpp/xmpp/xmppclient.cc 😉
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