XSF Discussion - 2021-01-21

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  233. syster As you may noticed: riseup.net is going to discontinue their xmpp service. They would have discontinued it even already if it wasn't for the reason Tails is using it for their MUC's. If you are unaware of the reasons to shut it down, those bits from an interview with riseup dating back to 2020/06 might be of interest to you: "However, for basic service, we have some details in the database of users, and probably their ‘buddy lists’. This service is not very well used, and we are considering discontinuing it because we’d rather not have any of this data." Prior to that, they where explaining how the FBI requested data from them. Shutting down everything that holds to much meta data protects riseup and so their users. You can read the full interview here: https://pramen.io/en/2020/06/interview-with-riseup-tech-collective/ Tails needs now a new home for their chat rooms. If it will be xmpp is undecided. The issue related to that can be found here: https://gitlab.tails.boum.org/tails/tails/-/issues/17956 If you believe you have helpful/usefull input on that matter, feel free comment in that issue or/and join tails-dev.conference.riseup.net
  234. syster As you may noticed: riseup.net is going to discontinue their xmpp service. They would have discontinued it even already if it wasn't for the reason Tails is using it for their MUC's. If you are unaware of the reasons to shut it down, those bits from an interview with riseup dating back to 2020/06 might be of interest to you: "However, for basic service, we have some details in the database of users, and probably their ‘buddy lists’. This service is not very well used, and we are considering discontinuing it because we’d rather not have any of this data." Prior to that, they where explaining how the FBI requested data from them. Shutting down everything that holds to much meta data protects riseup and so their users. You can read the full interview here: https://pramen.io/en/2020/06/interview-with-riseup-tech-collective/ Tails needs now a new home for their chat rooms. If it will be xmpp is undecided. The issue related to that can be found here: https://gitlab.tails.boum.org/tails/tails/-/issues/17956 If you believe you have helpful/usefull input on that matter, feel free comment in that issue or/and join xmpp:tails-dev.conference.riseup.net
  235. flow seems sensible from their POV. Now I wonder how others, like Matrix, protect the user data: Is it not on the server? Encrypted on the server?
  236. flow and a follow up question: does an xmpp server need access to the roster if no session of the user is connected?
  237. Ge0rG flow: limited roster access is needed
  238. Zash You need rosters for access control, like PEP
  239. Zash I suppose you could get away with just not responding to presence probes if they're offline.
  240. Ge0rG flow: I'm sure that a server implementation can be written that will store all user data encrypted asymmetrically, with a password that the client provides on login to unlock the private key, and one-way-hashes of JIDs for ACLs
  241. Ge0rG but that probably requires rewriting from scratch
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  243. flow Ge0rG, sure or confident that this is possible? ;)
  244. Zash I'm pretty sure you can. I did a proof-of-concept once doing precisely what Ge0rG describes
  245. flow ok, but that means at least that third parties are able to check if a JID is in the roster, right?
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  247. flow and hence, brute force
  248. flow (with a list of known JIDs)
  249. Ge0rG Zash: a subset of what I described. And it wasn't ever tested.
  250. Ge0rG flow: yes
  251. Ge0rG flow: third parties that have read access to your storage
  252. Zash Ge0rG, oh, sorry, didn't read until the end of that 🙂
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  255. Zash But it derived a key from login data and used that for a subset of user data.
  256. Ge0rG I'd love to migrate yax.im to this kind of storage, but it needs to be using efficient encryption and storage mechanisms, not RSA in base64 in lua serialized tables
  257. Zash Not rosters tho
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  406. emus Again the question: Do I need to ask for any permissions on blog posting? Is there another native offering to review (Sam recommended)?
  407. SamWhited Personally I'd just get someone who's a native speaker who you trust not to change your words to do an editing pass before merging. Ie. just let them change it freely and hit merge without going back and forth.
  408. SamWhited As long as it's only editorial and doesn't change what you're saying it would probably make things quicker.
  409. emus Fine for me, but if one is doing so, please announce to not have cross editing
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  412. SamWhited emus (sorry, no idea how to PM on my laptop and I got tired of using my phone): I'm not sure who has permission to merge a blog post and is a native speaker, sorry. I assume someone from the comm team would be best, but I don't know who's on that
  413. SamWhited Although XSF policy appears to be "board has to approve everything and there's little point to delegating authority to committees" as far as I can tell, so maybe a board person?
  414. SamWhited (although I also can't remember why I formed that opinion, something recently where a committee wasn't allowed to tweet or something; no idea if it also applies to the website)
  415. Zash Commteam?
  416. emus Dunno, havent got any respone
  417. Ge0rG Yeah, commteam
  418. moparisthebest I thought emus was (most/part) of the commteam
  419. emus Yes I am^^
  420. SamWhited oh, that's not very helpful then as far as getting more eyes on it and having a native speaker do an editing pass before hiting merge :)
  421. emus I ask, about approval, but no one replied
  422. SamWhited I mean, I can keep pointing out grammar that doesn't sound quite right, it will just be a lot of round trips.
  423. emus I can write an email to board if you prefer, but I thought discussion here is better
  424. Zash Maybe thing to do is to just publish it, then it's guaranteed to be reviewed by someone who will find every typo! 🙂
  425. Ge0rG emus: yeah, just commit it already!
  426. emus 🤯️
  427. SamWhited I feel like it doesn't look great if we publish a blog post with a lot of bad grammar (not that I blame emus of course, not being a native speaker, just that the official XSF language is English so it doesn't seem great to go straight to the web without review)
  428. emus If Sam says there is a lot weird stuff, I prefer to get it right - at least give it another roung
  429. emus d
  430. Ge0rG SamWhited: didn't you do a review of the grammar already?
  431. moparisthebest on the other hand if no one can review it in 3 days just go, better than nothing, most of it looks fine to me except the one thing I pointed out
  432. SamWhited Ge0rG: I did a quick pass, but I wasn't sure what some of it meant at all so I couldn't make suggestions and what not.
  433. moparisthebest not *perfect* but *fine*
  434. Ge0rG moparisthebest: I fully agree
  435. SamWhited Give me 30 seconds to go through it again if you don't mind, if I see anything really weird I'll point it out, otherwise I don't have any authority here anyways :)
  436. emus take 30 minutes if you like
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  438. SamWhited The only real thing I'd say needs to change still is the title, it doesn't really make sense to me and sounds a bit odd (though I don't know if it's technically incorrect grammar)
  439. SamWhited I'm struggling to think of something that says what you're trying to say though
  440. emus Take your time if you can
  441. emus I want to say in a more clear way: The decision about you communication is a decision about the technology, not about the chat app/ instant messenger you use
  442. SamWhited That makes sense, I'm not sure how to condense that into a snappy title that sounds correct though. I'll think about it.
  443. Ge0rG "Messaging is not about the app" maybe
  444. SamWhited Oh yah, that sounds a lot better
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  446. Ge0rG "Instant Messaging: it's not about the app"
  447. emus Sounds fine to me
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  449. emus Instant Messaging is not about the choice of the app
  450. emus ?
  451. emus I would like to have it as a sentence
  452. Ge0rG Instant Messaging is not about which app to choose
  453. SamWhited That one sounds odd again; it's not wrong, the phrasing just makes it longer than it needs to be and it has more articles than are necessary
  454. SamWhited All three of Ge0rG's sound pretty good
  455. emus I'm gonna send the final version to board/council, so at least I informed them
  456. SamWhited All of Ge0rG's are valid sentences too, so I wouldn't be concerned about that. Titles don't really need to be sentences anyways.
  457. Ge0rG The second one is IMHO the most catchy one and might intrigue to read what it is about
  458. emus Instant Messaging is not about which app to choose
  459. emus yes
  460. SamWhited That one works
  461. emus Okay, I go with Georg second
  462. Ge0rG Brevity is king
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  465. SamWhited +1 ⤴️
  466. emus can I write it like this?
  467. emus Instant Messaging: It is not about the app
  468. SamWhited "it's" sounds better to me (but it doesn't matter)
  469. emus or Should it really be It's
  470. emus ok
  471. SamWhited just nit picking now
  472. emus yeah thats good
  473. emus I would like to pin it to twitter
  474. emus other one is 5 yrs old
  475. SamWhited Left a few more comments, nothing major.
  476. emus (still good)
  477. SamWhited "I could have stood up" still sounds weird to me too, but I have no idea how to fix it or if it's even technically wrong, so whatever.
  478. emus ok, let me go through it
  479. emus Sam, the second sub title: It's not about the app but about the technology (works?)
  480. Ge0rG Isn't it about interoperable technology?
  481. emus lets keep it simple here I think
  482. SamWhited emus: yah, that sounds fine to me
  483. emus Ge0rG but I will name it in the list
  484. SamWhited By "very evaluated" did you mean "educated"?
  485. SamWhited It reads better to me if you drop the "very" and just make it "educated", but I'm not sure if that's what you meant
  486. emus I acutall meant evaluation
  487. emus like "reviewing"
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  489. SamWhited I don't think that's how that' snormally used
  490. emus Okay, let me think about it, in the meanwhile: can you confirm zashs comments? https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/871
  491. emus https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/871#discussion_r562152494
  492. SamWhited I think I already replied to them :)
  493. emus ok cool
  494. emus --> well-founded ?
  495. SamWhited "because they made a well-founded choice." sounds good to me. That means the same thing as an educated choice.
  496. emus Ah okay, educated sounded like school to me 😀
  497. emus but I guess thats just my German mind^^
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  501. emus On the other hand, I also see they usually do not switch platforms because they made a very well-founded choice for one specific messenger, which is also not easy.
  502. SamWhited I'd drop the "very" personally, it's not necessary.
  503. emus ok
  504. emus gone
  505. emus Sam, are you at least "okay" with it now? :D
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  507. SamWhited I still don't understand that sentence even without the "very". I know what you're trying to say because we've been talking about it, but I don't think I get it from that sentence.
  508. SamWhited The "which is also not easy" doesn't follow from what you said before, for example. I'm not sure what you mean by that part.
  509. SamWhited What's not easy?
  510. SamWhited Making a well-founded choice?
  511. emus On the other hand, I usually do not see they made a well-founded choice (which is also not easy) for one specific messenger.
  512. SamWhited I dunno, I wouldn't listen to me though. I can keep nit picking, but I'm not a great editor so if we don't actually have anyone who approves these things or is a good editor it's probably fine to just merge. I appreciate you valuing my opinion, but it's probably not worth listening to me :)
  513. emus Does the simpler version work? ^
  514. emus Sam you are really helping, yes its taking time, but I think that was worth it. Is alright!
  515. SamWhited Actually, I'm not even sure how this is an "on the one hand, on the other" situation. Aren't these two things the same thing? They're just making a quick decision and it's not very well thought out sound like the same thing to me
  516. emus is board@xmpp.org correct?
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  518. SamWhited oooh, wait, maybe I'm misunderstanding entirely. Are you saying that even when people make an educated choice they still switch frequently?
  519. emus nope 🙂
  520. emus wait
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  522. emus Many people just make a short-term decision about their communication software and this usually is not a well-founded choice for one specific messenger. So, the people just switch again and again.
  523. SamWhited ahh, yah, that makes a lot of sense to me
  524. SamWhited Only little nit pick on that is "Many people make short-term decisions about their…"
  525. mdosch Maybe s/Many/Often?
  526. mdosch Or spontaneous?
  527. SamWhited "Often, people make short-term decisions about their" sounds good to me too, either way.
  528. emus yes
  529. SamWhited I'd also maybe consider "So the people switch again and again, or add yet another messenger to their collection"
  530. SamWhited Or "Many people switch again and again or add yet another messenger to their list" or something like that
  531. SamWhited But that doesn't matter as much, I'm just trying ot avoid the "Actually," which IMO breaks up the thought and is a bit jarring.
  532. SamWhited (but it's not "wrong" per say)
  533. emus Let me have the line break there (please :))
  534. emus I want to continue the thought actually
  535. emus I think, as long the gramma is okay, its fine
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  537. SamWhited yah, I think that one's fine, I'm just nitpicking at this point.
  538. emus Done?
  539. SamWhited Sure
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  542. emus Hi arc, dave (dwd ?), matthew (Wild?), ralphm and Seve - please approve and merge if you are satisfied: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/871
  543. arc I don't know who even has access to do that
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  546. emus And thanks Sam for giving it a second try.
  547. emus arc, If you all give me your go, I can do it myself
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  549. emus arc, If you all give me your "Go", I can do it myself
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  553. emus Also a sub-question: One said that the bylawys state english as official XSF language. So if I would like to offer translations, thats a no go or it just needs to published else where, or possible to have that as follow-up posts?
  554. Zash I don't see "english" or "language" in https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/bylaws
  555. emus Yeah - okay, with or without it basically makes sense
  556. Zash I suspect that difficulties publishing translations on the website may be more of a technical nature than legal (or whatyoucallit what the bylaws says)
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  558. Zash Bunch of wording that IIRC is to explicitly allow remote communication for meetings and such is the closes I can find.
  559. Zash Maybe there's something about language inherited from the General Corporation Law of the State of Delaware, but I'm not going to venture into that.
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  562. emus okay, you mean it has a different meaning in another language?
  563. Zash Huh?
  564. Zash I'm afraid I don't follow.
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  566. emus Me, too 😀 What were your three statements about, I think I didnt understand correctly
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  568. Zash 1. I'm not sure if publishing translations is easy with Pelican. 2a. Our bylaws says nothing about an official language. 2b. I don't know if any other law that may apply says anything about language.
  569. emus Ah okay, I just thought publishing new blog post with clear reference as translation of the english artocle
  570. emus Ah okay, I just thought publishing new blog post with clear reference as translation of the english article
  571. emus 2b, lets wait for the board
  572. MattJ There is no problem with the XSF publishing translations of its blog posts
  573. MattJ The bylaws are about how the organization is run, not about what gets posted on the blog
  574. emus ok, thx
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  607. purplebeetroot > Instant Messaging is not about which app to choose I like it. Here's another option: Communication is not about which app to choose. And then starting to explain what's important for/while having a conversation and how that aplies to xmpp.
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