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syster
As you may noticed: riseup.net is going to discontinue their xmpp service. They would have discontinued it even already if it wasn't for the reason Tails is using it for their MUC's. If you are unaware of the reasons to shut it down, those bits from an interview with riseup dating back to 2020/06 might be of interest to you: "However, for basic service, we have some details in the database of users, and probably their ‘buddy lists’. This service is not very well used, and we are considering discontinuing it because we’d rather not have any of this data." Prior to that, they where explaining how the FBI requested data from them. Shutting down everything that holds to much meta data protects riseup and so their users. You can read the full interview here: https://pramen.io/en/2020/06/interview-with-riseup-tech-collective/ Tails needs now a new home for their chat rooms. If it will be xmpp is undecided. The issue related to that can be found here: https://gitlab.tails.boum.org/tails/tails/-/issues/17956 If you believe you have helpful/usefull input on that matter, feel free comment in that issue or/and join tails-dev.conference.riseup.net✎ -
syster
As you may noticed: riseup.net is going to discontinue their xmpp service. They would have discontinued it even already if it wasn't for the reason Tails is using it for their MUC's. If you are unaware of the reasons to shut it down, those bits from an interview with riseup dating back to 2020/06 might be of interest to you: "However, for basic service, we have some details in the database of users, and probably their ‘buddy lists’. This service is not very well used, and we are considering discontinuing it because we’d rather not have any of this data." Prior to that, they where explaining how the FBI requested data from them. Shutting down everything that holds to much meta data protects riseup and so their users. You can read the full interview here: https://pramen.io/en/2020/06/interview-with-riseup-tech-collective/ Tails needs now a new home for their chat rooms. If it will be xmpp is undecided. The issue related to that can be found here: https://gitlab.tails.boum.org/tails/tails/-/issues/17956 If you believe you have helpful/usefull input on that matter, feel free comment in that issue or/and join xmpp:tails-dev.conference.riseup.net ✏
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flow
seems sensible from their POV. Now I wonder how others, like Matrix, protect the user data: Is it not on the server? Encrypted on the server?
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flow
and a follow up question: does an xmpp server need access to the roster if no session of the user is connected?
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Ge0rG
flow: limited roster access is needed
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Zash
You need rosters for access control, like PEP
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Zash
I suppose you could get away with just not responding to presence probes if they're offline.
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Ge0rG
flow: I'm sure that a server implementation can be written that will store all user data encrypted asymmetrically, with a password that the client provides on login to unlock the private key, and one-way-hashes of JIDs for ACLs
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Ge0rG
but that probably requires rewriting from scratch
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flow
Ge0rG, sure or confident that this is possible? ;)
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Zash
I'm pretty sure you can. I did a proof-of-concept once doing precisely what Ge0rG describes
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flow
ok, but that means at least that third parties are able to check if a JID is in the roster, right?
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flow
and hence, brute force
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flow
(with a list of known JIDs)
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Ge0rG
Zash: a subset of what I described. And it wasn't ever tested.
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Ge0rG
flow: yes
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Ge0rG
flow: third parties that have read access to your storage
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Zash
Ge0rG, oh, sorry, didn't read until the end of that 🙂
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Zash
But it derived a key from login data and used that for a subset of user data.
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Ge0rG
I'd love to migrate yax.im to this kind of storage, but it needs to be using efficient encryption and storage mechanisms, not RSA in base64 in lua serialized tables
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Zash
Not rosters tho
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emus
Again the question: Do I need to ask for any permissions on blog posting? Is there another native offering to review (Sam recommended)?
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SamWhited
Personally I'd just get someone who's a native speaker who you trust not to change your words to do an editing pass before merging. Ie. just let them change it freely and hit merge without going back and forth.
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SamWhited
As long as it's only editorial and doesn't change what you're saying it would probably make things quicker.
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emus
Fine for me, but if one is doing so, please announce to not have cross editing
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SamWhited
emus (sorry, no idea how to PM on my laptop and I got tired of using my phone): I'm not sure who has permission to merge a blog post and is a native speaker, sorry. I assume someone from the comm team would be best, but I don't know who's on that
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SamWhited
Although XSF policy appears to be "board has to approve everything and there's little point to delegating authority to committees" as far as I can tell, so maybe a board person?
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SamWhited
(although I also can't remember why I formed that opinion, something recently where a committee wasn't allowed to tweet or something; no idea if it also applies to the website)
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Zash
Commteam?
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emus
Dunno, havent got any respone
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Ge0rG
Yeah, commteam
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moparisthebest
I thought emus was (most/part) of the commteam
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emus
Yes I am^^
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SamWhited
oh, that's not very helpful then as far as getting more eyes on it and having a native speaker do an editing pass before hiting merge :)
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emus
I ask, about approval, but no one replied
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SamWhited
I mean, I can keep pointing out grammar that doesn't sound quite right, it will just be a lot of round trips.
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emus
I can write an email to board if you prefer, but I thought discussion here is better
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Zash
Maybe thing to do is to just publish it, then it's guaranteed to be reviewed by someone who will find every typo! 🙂
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Ge0rG
emus: yeah, just commit it already!
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emus
🤯️
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SamWhited
I feel like it doesn't look great if we publish a blog post with a lot of bad grammar (not that I blame emus of course, not being a native speaker, just that the official XSF language is English so it doesn't seem great to go straight to the web without review)
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emus
If Sam says there is a lot weird stuff, I prefer to get it right - at least give it another roung
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emus
d
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Ge0rG
SamWhited: didn't you do a review of the grammar already?
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moparisthebest
on the other hand if no one can review it in 3 days just go, better than nothing, most of it looks fine to me except the one thing I pointed out
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SamWhited
Ge0rG: I did a quick pass, but I wasn't sure what some of it meant at all so I couldn't make suggestions and what not.
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moparisthebest
not *perfect* but *fine*
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Ge0rG
moparisthebest: I fully agree
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SamWhited
Give me 30 seconds to go through it again if you don't mind, if I see anything really weird I'll point it out, otherwise I don't have any authority here anyways :)
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emus
take 30 minutes if you like
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SamWhited
The only real thing I'd say needs to change still is the title, it doesn't really make sense to me and sounds a bit odd (though I don't know if it's technically incorrect grammar)
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SamWhited
I'm struggling to think of something that says what you're trying to say though
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emus
Take your time if you can
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emus
I want to say in a more clear way: The decision about you communication is a decision about the technology, not about the chat app/ instant messenger you use
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SamWhited
That makes sense, I'm not sure how to condense that into a snappy title that sounds correct though. I'll think about it.
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Ge0rG
"Messaging is not about the app" maybe
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SamWhited
Oh yah, that sounds a lot better
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Ge0rG
"Instant Messaging: it's not about the app"
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emus
Sounds fine to me
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emus
Instant Messaging is not about the choice of the app
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emus
?
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emus
I would like to have it as a sentence
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Ge0rG
Instant Messaging is not about which app to choose
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SamWhited
That one sounds odd again; it's not wrong, the phrasing just makes it longer than it needs to be and it has more articles than are necessary
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SamWhited
All three of Ge0rG's sound pretty good
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emus
I'm gonna send the final version to board/council, so at least I informed them
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SamWhited
All of Ge0rG's are valid sentences too, so I wouldn't be concerned about that. Titles don't really need to be sentences anyways.
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Ge0rG
The second one is IMHO the most catchy one and might intrigue to read what it is about
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emus
Instant Messaging is not about which app to choose
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emus
yes
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SamWhited
That one works
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emus
Okay, I go with Georg second
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Ge0rG
Brevity is king
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SamWhited
+1 ⤴️
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emus
can I write it like this?
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emus
Instant Messaging: It is not about the app
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SamWhited
"it's" sounds better to me (but it doesn't matter)
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emus
or Should it really be It's
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emus
ok
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SamWhited
just nit picking now
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emus
yeah thats good
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emus
I would like to pin it to twitter
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emus
other one is 5 yrs old
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SamWhited
Left a few more comments, nothing major.
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emus
(still good)
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SamWhited
"I could have stood up" still sounds weird to me too, but I have no idea how to fix it or if it's even technically wrong, so whatever.
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emus
ok, let me go through it
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emus
Sam, the second sub title: It's not about the app but about the technology (works?)
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Ge0rG
Isn't it about interoperable technology?
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emus
lets keep it simple here I think
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SamWhited
emus: yah, that sounds fine to me
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emus
Ge0rG but I will name it in the list
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SamWhited
By "very evaluated" did you mean "educated"?
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SamWhited
It reads better to me if you drop the "very" and just make it "educated", but I'm not sure if that's what you meant
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emus
I acutall meant evaluation
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emus
like "reviewing"
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SamWhited
I don't think that's how that' snormally used
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emus
Okay, let me think about it, in the meanwhile: can you confirm zashs comments? https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/871
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emus
https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/871#discussion_r562152494
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SamWhited
I think I already replied to them :)
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emus
ok cool
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emus
--> well-founded ?
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SamWhited
"because they made a well-founded choice." sounds good to me. That means the same thing as an educated choice.
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emus
Ah okay, educated sounded like school to me 😀
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emus
but I guess thats just my German mind^^
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emus
On the other hand, I also see they usually do not switch platforms because they made a very well-founded choice for one specific messenger, which is also not easy.
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SamWhited
I'd drop the "very" personally, it's not necessary.
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emus
ok
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emus
gone
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emus
Sam, are you at least "okay" with it now? :D
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SamWhited
I still don't understand that sentence even without the "very". I know what you're trying to say because we've been talking about it, but I don't think I get it from that sentence.
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SamWhited
The "which is also not easy" doesn't follow from what you said before, for example. I'm not sure what you mean by that part.
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SamWhited
What's not easy?
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SamWhited
Making a well-founded choice?
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emus
On the other hand, I usually do not see they made a well-founded choice (which is also not easy) for one specific messenger.
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SamWhited
I dunno, I wouldn't listen to me though. I can keep nit picking, but I'm not a great editor so if we don't actually have anyone who approves these things or is a good editor it's probably fine to just merge. I appreciate you valuing my opinion, but it's probably not worth listening to me :)
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emus
Does the simpler version work? ^
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emus
Sam you are really helping, yes its taking time, but I think that was worth it. Is alright!
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SamWhited
Actually, I'm not even sure how this is an "on the one hand, on the other" situation. Aren't these two things the same thing? They're just making a quick decision and it's not very well thought out sound like the same thing to me
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emus
is board@xmpp.org correct?
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SamWhited
oooh, wait, maybe I'm misunderstanding entirely. Are you saying that even when people make an educated choice they still switch frequently?
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emus
nope 🙂
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emus
wait
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emus
Many people just make a short-term decision about their communication software and this usually is not a well-founded choice for one specific messenger. So, the people just switch again and again.
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SamWhited
ahh, yah, that makes a lot of sense to me
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SamWhited
Only little nit pick on that is "Many people make short-term decisions about their…"
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mdosch
Maybe s/Many/Often?
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mdosch
Or spontaneous?
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SamWhited
"Often, people make short-term decisions about their" sounds good to me too, either way.
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emus
yes
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SamWhited
I'd also maybe consider "So the people switch again and again, or add yet another messenger to their collection"
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SamWhited
Or "Many people switch again and again or add yet another messenger to their list" or something like that
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SamWhited
But that doesn't matter as much, I'm just trying ot avoid the "Actually," which IMO breaks up the thought and is a bit jarring.
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SamWhited
(but it's not "wrong" per say)
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emus
Let me have the line break there (please :))
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emus
I want to continue the thought actually
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emus
I think, as long the gramma is okay, its fine
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SamWhited
yah, I think that one's fine, I'm just nitpicking at this point.
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emus
Done?
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SamWhited
Sure
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emus
Hi arc, dave (dwd ?), matthew (Wild?), ralphm and Seve - please approve and merge if you are satisfied: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/871
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arc
I don't know who even has access to do that
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emus
And thanks Sam for giving it a second try.
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emus
arc, If you all give me your go, I can do it myself✎ -
emus
arc, If you all give me your "Go", I can do it myself ✏
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emus
Also a sub-question: One said that the bylawys state english as official XSF language. So if I would like to offer translations, thats a no go or it just needs to published else where, or possible to have that as follow-up posts?
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Zash
I don't see "english" or "language" in https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/bylaws
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emus
Yeah - okay, with or without it basically makes sense
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Zash
I suspect that difficulties publishing translations on the website may be more of a technical nature than legal (or whatyoucallit what the bylaws says)
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Zash
Bunch of wording that IIRC is to explicitly allow remote communication for meetings and such is the closes I can find.
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Zash
Maybe there's something about language inherited from the General Corporation Law of the State of Delaware, but I'm not going to venture into that.
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emus
okay, you mean it has a different meaning in another language?
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Zash
Huh?
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Zash
I'm afraid I don't follow.
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emus
Me, too 😀 What were your three statements about, I think I didnt understand correctly
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Zash
1. I'm not sure if publishing translations is easy with Pelican. 2a. Our bylaws says nothing about an official language. 2b. I don't know if any other law that may apply says anything about language.
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emus
Ah okay, I just thought publishing new blog post with clear reference as translation of the english artocle✎ -
emus
Ah okay, I just thought publishing new blog post with clear reference as translation of the english article ✏
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emus
2b, lets wait for the board
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MattJ
There is no problem with the XSF publishing translations of its blog posts
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MattJ
The bylaws are about how the organization is run, not about what gets posted on the blog
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emus
ok, thx
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purplebeetroot
> Instant Messaging is not about which app to choose I like it. Here's another option: Communication is not about which app to choose. And then starting to explain what's important for/while having a conversation and how that aplies to xmpp.