XSF Discussion - 2021-01-25

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  246. Ge0rG @iteam: I'm using the xmpp.org servers as an example for a TLS verification script in https://github.com/ge0rg/certwatch - please complain if you think that somebody might copy-pasta it and DoS the xmpp.org infra
  247. jonas’ why not use your own server? :)
  248. Ge0rG I needed a config example with non-default ports?
  249. jonas’ ah
  250. Ge0rG TBH, I somehow thought that my infra isn't as reliable and as objective as xmpp.org
  251. jonas’ I don’t care much, if someone wants to DoS xmpp.org, they can do it with and without certwatch.sh :)
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  253. MattJ Uh, you don't want to know what we've been dealing with on prosody.im recently
  254. jonas’ I do, actually.
  255. flow Now I wanna know
  256. jonas’ I’m always interested in stories from the trenches.
  257. MattJ One slice of the fun: it seems some internet censorship avoidance app got popular in Turkmenistan ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_in_Turkmenistan#Censorship ). It uses DNS over HTTP to bypass DNS-based blocks by the ISP.
  258. MattJ A public XMPP service also runs a DoH resolver. On the same page where they mention this, they also discuss their Prosody installation and link to a commit in our repo.
  259. jonas’ oh my
  260. jonas’ and then someone thought that was a DoH resolver?
  261. MattJ Somehow the link to that commit has ended up being distributed in the list of DoH resolvers, and our hgweb processes are being flooded with DNS requests
  262. MattJ from Turkmenistan
  263. MattJ Endlessly
  264. jonas’ sounds like an easy fix though
  265. jonas’ return 499 Reported To State Police and see what happens.
  266. MattJ There are bug reports on the app asking it to back off on error responses, we're hoping that it will calm down
  267. MattJ Meanwhile we have numerous IPs connecting to our websocket endpoint on prosody.im and trying to repeatedly do legacy auth (yes, the iq based one)
  268. MattJ Haven't figured that one out yet
  269. jonas’ that also is a strange combination
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  273. Ge0rG Some badly configured spam bot?
  274. Ge0rG MattJ: are those IPs on Tor RBL.
  275. Ge0rG MattJ: are those IPs on Tor RBL?
  276. Ge0rG Damn, editing a MUC message that's in flight causes duplicates in yaxim. I thought my code is bullet proof
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  373. arc Lol
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  376. arc Laughing with you, not at you, because I know that pain all too well
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  390. arc Since we still haven't fixed MUC over the last decades, I am a little concerned about MIX
  391. Zash MUC has improved quite a bit I think
  392. Zash Nowhere near perfect of course, but that's unattainable.
  393. arc I am certainly not saying it hasn't, but the last 10% seems to be dragging out forever
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  396. jonas’ since the remaining 10% are a lot related to inherent flaws in the MUC design
  397. jonas’ (presence based, no way to identify different resources of a single occupant on the stanza level)
  398. arc Sure certainly, but I feel they are all issues we should have fixed long ago
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  401. Zash And MIX would have some inverse MUC issues, like accumulation of temporary participants or being more sensitive to s2s issues.
  402. Zash Nice things, can't have them!
  403. arc Lol
  404. arc How are we on mix support anyway?
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  406. Andrzej I can say that Tigase supports MIX and BeagleIM and SiskinIM have support for it and if I'm correct Kaidan will get it as well
  407. Zash Ejabberd has something IIRC
  408. Zash I've heard rumors of multiple people intending to start working on MIX for Prosody, but so far I've seen no proof.
  409. Andrzej I know there was something in ejabbrerd, but I'm not sure if it is up-to-date
  410. mathieui as far as I remember ejabberd does not have the latest MIX
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  413. arc But Tigase does?
  414. mathieui the latest slixmpp version ships with initial MIX support, some of it tested against Tigase
  415. SamWhited mathieui: actual question: how did you setup Tigase? I wanted to test something about it and couldn't find any information about how to configure it anywhere
  416. SamWhited I assumed you had to buy some enterprisey support plan or something
  417. SamWhited Or is it only configurable through the web setup thing?
  418. Andrzej Tigase has MIX
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  420. Andrzej SamWhited, web setup is for initial setup and works quite well
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  422. SamWhited Andrzej: that's not an option for me
  423. mathieui SamWhited, I tested against the official servers
  424. Andrzej and documentation is still available https://docs.tigase.net/
  425. SamWhited I *think* that's what I was looking through and I couldn't find anything about how to configure it
  426. SamWhited Although this looks different than I remember, it's been a bit.
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  428. mathieui SamWhited, I created accounts on xmpp.cloud and tested on mix.xmpp.cloud, FYI
  429. SamWhited In this case I wanted to be able to programatically set something up locally. Oh well.
  430. mathieui at the time there was no MIX-PAM yet so some things worked and others did not
  431. SamWhited I ended up giving up and rage closing the issue because I couldn't find any info at all on the tigase site, so I guessed it just wasn't supported
  432. Zash I'm not the greatest Docker fan but ... Docker?
  433. Andrzej SamWhited, you could always reach out and submit an issue or send an email
  434. Wojtek or ask in Tigase's MUC
  435. SamWhited Andrzej: if I have to go to those lengths just to set up the server, it's not worth it and I'll just use something else :) was just hoping someone happened to have done it since people said they were using it
  436. Wojtek @SamWhited you said that web-installer would be a no-go for you and you would prefer direct configuration explanation?
  437. arc To be clear, you likely don't have to use docker. Basically all containers are inter-compatible these days. So it might be better to just call them a container.
  438. Zash Docker, the package manager.
  439. Wojtek actually if Sam was able to run Tigase by itself (just on JVM) then enabling MIX on that setup would be relatively straightforward (and wouldn't require docker)
  440. SamWhited Wojtek: I want to use it in two places: one is a thing that automatically configures servers for some unit tests (so it needs to write a config file or maybe a database or something) and the other is a Terraform plugin that deploys infrastructure programatically like a lot of businesses use. Neither can control a web interface.
  441. SamWhited s/unit tests/integration tests/
  442. Wojtek still very-much doable. web-installer is just to give you a really simple tool to configure the server, but the core of the configuration is done via `config.tdsl` file (which web installer basically creates)
  443. SamWhited Wojtek: is there documentation on that anywhere? I did look through the docs and around the web for a long time and couldn't find any info
  444. Wojtek we do run our own funcional tests: https://github.com/tigase/tigase-tts-ng -> https://build.tigase.net/nightlies/tts-ng-tests/index.html)
  445. Wojtek @SamWhited: unfortunately the is no guide how to enable mix, I just made a note to create it (though it would be rather simple) - we made a blog entry about MIX and how to use it but we neglected the other aspect of the story
  446. moparisthebest oh come on SamWhited you don't feel like writing some selenium automation running headless chrome to set up something? :D
  447. SamWhited moparisthebest: I heard it runs webscale so maybe I should try it!
  448. moparisthebest that's the spirit!
  449. SamWhited But seriously, I had this same problem with Tigase and OpenFire (openfire docs mentioned a config XML file, but not where it was or what anything inside of it was). I would have assumed corporate sort of stuff would have some sort of way to provision itself as part of enterprises normal infrastructures that I could piggy back on
  450. SamWhited (or just a config file)
  451. Wojtek @SamWhited I think that "quick start" (https://docs.tigase.net/tigase-server/master-snapshot/Administration_Guide/html/#QuickStart) + https://docs.tigase.net/tigase-server/master-snapshot/Administration_Guide/html/#dslConfig should give you what you need; the missing bit would be what to put in TDSL to enable MIX
  452. SamWhited Thanks, I'll give those a look; I don't need mix in particular, just a basic setup.
  453. Wojtek sure thing, and if something is still unclear or we could improve we would appreciate feedback (sometimes it hard to notice what may not be so obvious when you deal with something on a daily basis) :-)
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  455. SamWhited Pretty sure I looked at the quick start guide and it mentions literally none of this, but I'll read through it again. I definitely hadn't found this DSL description, so that will be helpful, but at a quick glance there's literally nothing to show me a config file or what it should look like or where it should go.
  456. SamWhited But I'll read through it and maybe after reading the whole thing it will become more clear. I'd just expect to actually be able to quickly set something up up front and then figure out all the details later.
  457. SamWhited (ahh ther eit is, you have to scroll down a *long* way to find an example; will set it up then read everything and see how it goes)
  458. Wojtek yeah, it's quite lengthy - the problem with docs: either make it short-and-to-the-point but it may lack things or describe but then it may be overwhelming... probably restructuring it could help
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  460. Zash I read something called "The 4 types of documentation" once that was pretty insightful.
  461. SamWhited bookmarks that
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  463. SamWhited thanks
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  465. Zash Can't find it myself, but I see lots of hits for that and I imagine they'll be saying something similar.
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  467. Wojtek @Zash https://documentation.divio.com/ - this by anychance? does seem to make sense
  468. Zash Ah, yes, that image looks familiar.
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  544. emus Dear Fosstondon folks: https://fosstodon.org/web/statuses/105618198867580357
  545. moparisthebest thanks emus !
  546. emus You are welcome
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  567. emus About 30 new follower on Fosstodon within one hour 😮️
  568. moparisthebest people on fediverse are very interested in chat suddenly
  569. moparisthebest I'm not on anything else (other than xmpp and irc) so I don't know if that extends elsewhere too
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  572. Zash WhatsApp changed their terms (or did they go back on that?) and the resulting diaspora brought down Signal.
  573. moparisthebest yep I did hear that, not the going back part though, that would surprise me
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  576. moparisthebest either way hopefully no putting the genie back in the bottle (of the, oh crap, facebook owns my chat? variety)
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  579. Zash Reversed or delayed or some sort of reaction to all their users jumping ship.
  580. MattJ moparisthebest, Hacker News is also into chat these days. Pidgin made the front page yesterday...
  581. Zash I'm not on WA and you should assume that I have no idea what I'm talking about. 😉
  582. moparisthebest I thought you said they were into chat, not legacy software?
  583. MattJ :)
  584. moparisthebest the egyptian pyramids are nice too, I don't want to chat using them
  585. MattJ Today was an article about the demise of ICQ, and someone in the comments asked if anyone knew a similar article about XMPP
  586. Zash moparisthebest: Pidgin is good, XMPP is bad, Matrix is good.
  587. moparisthebest Zash, sorry, does not compute
  588. Zash That's the impression I get of HNs opinions.
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  597. arc Zash: yes, you're specifying the docker as a specific set of software used to manage and run containers, but the industry has settled on OCI standard for years now.
  598. arc So it's more accurate to just say container, or OCI container, since whatever pre-packed container tigase is distributing will likely run on any container system.
  599. arc http://opencontainers.org
  600. Zash But, I really don't mean that. I mean Docker Hub.
  601. Zash Just like "git" = Github.
  602. Zash As in the "package" repository and whatever tooling you use to download and run stuff from that.
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  604. arc I'm only advocating to reduce unnecessary branding. Docker hub is just a container source.
  605. arc There are still a lot of people in our community who are unfamiliar with containers, and who docker is probably not the best solution.
  606. moparisthebest Zash, "package" means npm right?
  607. arc See there, confusion 😅
  608. Zash moparisthebest, no, "package" = .deb !
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  610. moparisthebest reminds me of an article I just saw today https://medium.com/@krishna.thokala2010/building-a-simple-irc-with-rust-b7204566d950 he built an IRC server with an http REST framework
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  612. moparisthebest obviously has no idea what "IRC" is, but that didn't stop him
  613. arc Especially for beginners, as someone who has run classes as a paid instructor, I have found podman to be much easier to get started with. Especially for people familiar with Linux
  614. Zash the one where the first introduction is "just `alias docker=podman` and you're done" ?
  615. arc People can certainly "get started" with docker quickly if they're just typing commands, but then they're usually completely lost.
  616. Zash TIL: podman is finally packaged in Debian. Wasn't last time I looked.
  617. Zash Thus I've never touched it.
  618. Zash And when you say "container", I think of LXC, which is completely different from "Docker"
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  620. arc Both are podman's directions for people familiar with docker. The commands for surface interaction, things like building and running containers, are very different from commands for hosting it.
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  622. moparisthebest you mean you don't start out with teaching them how to set up a k8s cluster? but how will they scale????
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  624. arc LXC is yet another example, yes.
  625. arc No my introduction usually is how to go from their own laptops to life cycle of development and deployment. Which in San Francisco is what most companies are focused on.
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