XSF Discussion - 2021-01-25

  1. Ge0rG

    @iteam: I'm using the xmpp.org servers as an example for a TLS verification script in https://github.com/ge0rg/certwatch - please complain if you think that somebody might copy-pasta it and DoS the xmpp.org infra

  2. jonas’

    why not use your own server? :)

  3. Ge0rG

    I needed a config example with non-default ports?

  4. jonas’


  5. Ge0rG

    TBH, I somehow thought that my infra isn't as reliable and as objective as xmpp.org

  6. jonas’

    I don’t care much, if someone wants to DoS xmpp.org, they can do it with and without certwatch.sh :)

  7. MattJ

    Uh, you don't want to know what we've been dealing with on prosody.im recently

  8. jonas’

    I do, actually.

  9. flow

    Now I wanna know

  10. jonas’

    I’m always interested in stories from the trenches.

  11. MattJ

    One slice of the fun: it seems some internet censorship avoidance app got popular in Turkmenistan ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecommunications_in_Turkmenistan#Censorship ). It uses DNS over HTTP to bypass DNS-based blocks by the ISP.

  12. MattJ

    A public XMPP service also runs a DoH resolver. On the same page where they mention this, they also discuss their Prosody installation and link to a commit in our repo.

  13. jonas’

    oh my

  14. jonas’

    and then someone thought that was a DoH resolver?

  15. MattJ

    Somehow the link to that commit has ended up being distributed in the list of DoH resolvers, and our hgweb processes are being flooded with DNS requests

  16. MattJ

    from Turkmenistan

  17. MattJ


  18. jonas’

    sounds like an easy fix though

  19. jonas’

    return 499 Reported To State Police and see what happens.

  20. MattJ

    There are bug reports on the app asking it to back off on error responses, we're hoping that it will calm down

  21. MattJ

    Meanwhile we have numerous IPs connecting to our websocket endpoint on prosody.im and trying to repeatedly do legacy auth (yes, the iq based one)

  22. MattJ

    Haven't figured that one out yet

  23. jonas’

    that also is a strange combination

  24. Ge0rG

    Some badly configured spam bot?

  25. Ge0rG

    MattJ: are those IPs on Tor RBL.

  26. Ge0rG

    MattJ: are those IPs on Tor RBL?

  27. Ge0rG

    Damn, editing a MUC message that's in flight causes duplicates in yaxim. I thought my code is bullet proof

  28. arc


  29. arc

    Laughing with you, not at you, because I know that pain all too well

  30. arc

    Since we still haven't fixed MUC over the last decades, I am a little concerned about MIX

  31. Zash

    MUC has improved quite a bit I think

  32. Zash

    Nowhere near perfect of course, but that's unattainable.

  33. arc

    I am certainly not saying it hasn't, but the last 10% seems to be dragging out forever

  34. jonas’

    since the remaining 10% are a lot related to inherent flaws in the MUC design

  35. jonas’

    (presence based, no way to identify different resources of a single occupant on the stanza level)

  36. arc

    Sure certainly, but I feel they are all issues we should have fixed long ago

  37. Zash

    And MIX would have some inverse MUC issues, like accumulation of temporary participants or being more sensitive to s2s issues.

  38. Zash

    Nice things, can't have them!

  39. arc


  40. arc

    How are we on mix support anyway?

  41. Andrzej

    I can say that Tigase supports MIX and BeagleIM and SiskinIM have support for it and if I'm correct Kaidan will get it as well

  42. Zash

    Ejabberd has something IIRC

  43. Zash

    I've heard rumors of multiple people intending to start working on MIX for Prosody, but so far I've seen no proof.

  44. Andrzej

    I know there was something in ejabbrerd, but I'm not sure if it is up-to-date

  45. mathieui

    as far as I remember ejabberd does not have the latest MIX

  46. arc

    But Tigase does?

  47. mathieui

    the latest slixmpp version ships with initial MIX support, some of it tested against Tigase

  48. SamWhited

    mathieui: actual question: how did you setup Tigase? I wanted to test something about it and couldn't find any information about how to configure it anywhere

  49. SamWhited

    I assumed you had to buy some enterprisey support plan or something

  50. SamWhited

    Or is it only configurable through the web setup thing?

  51. Andrzej

    Tigase has MIX

  52. Andrzej

    SamWhited, web setup is for initial setup and works quite well

  53. SamWhited

    Andrzej: that's not an option for me

  54. mathieui

    SamWhited, I tested against the official servers

  55. Andrzej

    and documentation is still available https://docs.tigase.net/

  56. SamWhited

    I *think* that's what I was looking through and I couldn't find anything about how to configure it

  57. SamWhited

    Although this looks different than I remember, it's been a bit.

  58. mathieui

    SamWhited, I created accounts on xmpp.cloud and tested on mix.xmpp.cloud, FYI

  59. SamWhited

    In this case I wanted to be able to programatically set something up locally. Oh well.

  60. mathieui

    at the time there was no MIX-PAM yet so some things worked and others did not

  61. SamWhited

    I ended up giving up and rage closing the issue because I couldn't find any info at all on the tigase site, so I guessed it just wasn't supported

  62. Zash

    I'm not the greatest Docker fan but ... Docker?

  63. Andrzej

    SamWhited, you could always reach out and submit an issue or send an email

  64. Wojtek

    or ask in Tigase's MUC

  65. SamWhited

    Andrzej: if I have to go to those lengths just to set up the server, it's not worth it and I'll just use something else :) was just hoping someone happened to have done it since people said they were using it

  66. Wojtek

    @SamWhited you said that web-installer would be a no-go for you and you would prefer direct configuration explanation?

  67. arc

    To be clear, you likely don't have to use docker. Basically all containers are inter-compatible these days. So it might be better to just call them a container.

  68. Zash

    Docker, the package manager.

  69. Wojtek

    actually if Sam was able to run Tigase by itself (just on JVM) then enabling MIX on that setup would be relatively straightforward (and wouldn't require docker)

  70. SamWhited

    Wojtek: I want to use it in two places: one is a thing that automatically configures servers for some unit tests (so it needs to write a config file or maybe a database or something) and the other is a Terraform plugin that deploys infrastructure programatically like a lot of businesses use. Neither can control a web interface.

  71. SamWhited

    s/unit tests/integration tests/

  72. Wojtek

    still very-much doable. web-installer is just to give you a really simple tool to configure the server, but the core of the configuration is done via `config.tdsl` file (which web installer basically creates)

  73. SamWhited

    Wojtek: is there documentation on that anywhere? I did look through the docs and around the web for a long time and couldn't find any info

  74. Wojtek

    we do run our own funcional tests: https://github.com/tigase/tigase-tts-ng -> https://build.tigase.net/nightlies/tts-ng-tests/index.html)

  75. Wojtek

    @SamWhited: unfortunately the is no guide how to enable mix, I just made a note to create it (though it would be rather simple) - we made a blog entry about MIX and how to use it but we neglected the other aspect of the story

  76. moparisthebest

    oh come on SamWhited you don't feel like writing some selenium automation running headless chrome to set up something? :D

  77. SamWhited

    moparisthebest: I heard it runs webscale so maybe I should try it!

  78. moparisthebest

    that's the spirit!

  79. SamWhited

    But seriously, I had this same problem with Tigase and OpenFire (openfire docs mentioned a config XML file, but not where it was or what anything inside of it was). I would have assumed corporate sort of stuff would have some sort of way to provision itself as part of enterprises normal infrastructures that I could piggy back on

  80. SamWhited

    (or just a config file)

  81. Wojtek

    @SamWhited I think that "quick start" (https://docs.tigase.net/tigase-server/master-snapshot/Administration_Guide/html/#QuickStart) + https://docs.tigase.net/tigase-server/master-snapshot/Administration_Guide/html/#dslConfig should give you what you need; the missing bit would be what to put in TDSL to enable MIX

  82. SamWhited

    Thanks, I'll give those a look; I don't need mix in particular, just a basic setup.

  83. Wojtek

    sure thing, and if something is still unclear or we could improve we would appreciate feedback (sometimes it hard to notice what may not be so obvious when you deal with something on a daily basis) :-)

  84. SamWhited

    Pretty sure I looked at the quick start guide and it mentions literally none of this, but I'll read through it again. I definitely hadn't found this DSL description, so that will be helpful, but at a quick glance there's literally nothing to show me a config file or what it should look like or where it should go.

  85. SamWhited

    But I'll read through it and maybe after reading the whole thing it will become more clear. I'd just expect to actually be able to quickly set something up up front and then figure out all the details later.

  86. SamWhited

    (ahh ther eit is, you have to scroll down a *long* way to find an example; will set it up then read everything and see how it goes)

  87. Wojtek

    yeah, it's quite lengthy - the problem with docs: either make it short-and-to-the-point but it may lack things or describe but then it may be overwhelming... probably restructuring it could help

  88. Zash

    I read something called "The 4 types of documentation" once that was pretty insightful.

  89. SamWhited bookmarks that

  90. SamWhited


  91. Zash

    Can't find it myself, but I see lots of hits for that and I imagine they'll be saying something similar.

  92. Wojtek

    @Zash https://documentation.divio.com/ - this by anychance? does seem to make sense

  93. Zash

    Ah, yes, that image looks familiar.

  94. emus

    Dear Fosstondon folks: https://fosstodon.org/web/statuses/105618198867580357

  95. moparisthebest

    thanks emus !

  96. emus

    You are welcome

  97. emus

    About 30 new follower on Fosstodon within one hour 😮️

  98. moparisthebest

    people on fediverse are very interested in chat suddenly

  99. moparisthebest

    I'm not on anything else (other than xmpp and irc) so I don't know if that extends elsewhere too

  100. Zash

    WhatsApp changed their terms (or did they go back on that?) and the resulting diaspora brought down Signal.

  101. moparisthebest

    yep I did hear that, not the going back part though, that would surprise me

  102. moparisthebest

    either way hopefully no putting the genie back in the bottle (of the, oh crap, facebook owns my chat? variety)

  103. Zash

    Reversed or delayed or some sort of reaction to all their users jumping ship.

  104. MattJ

    moparisthebest, Hacker News is also into chat these days. Pidgin made the front page yesterday...

  105. Zash

    I'm not on WA and you should assume that I have no idea what I'm talking about. 😉

  106. moparisthebest

    I thought you said they were into chat, not legacy software?

  107. MattJ


  108. moparisthebest

    the egyptian pyramids are nice too, I don't want to chat using them

  109. MattJ

    Today was an article about the demise of ICQ, and someone in the comments asked if anyone knew a similar article about XMPP

  110. Zash

    moparisthebest: Pidgin is good, XMPP is bad, Matrix is good.

  111. moparisthebest

    Zash, sorry, does not compute

  112. Zash

    That's the impression I get of HNs opinions.

  113. arc

    Zash: yes, you're specifying the docker as a specific set of software used to manage and run containers, but the industry has settled on OCI standard for years now.

  114. arc

    So it's more accurate to just say container, or OCI container, since whatever pre-packed container tigase is distributing will likely run on any container system.

  115. arc


  116. Zash

    But, I really don't mean that. I mean Docker Hub.

  117. Zash

    Just like "git" = Github.

  118. Zash

    As in the "package" repository and whatever tooling you use to download and run stuff from that.

  119. arc

    I'm only advocating to reduce unnecessary branding. Docker hub is just a container source.

  120. arc

    There are still a lot of people in our community who are unfamiliar with containers, and who docker is probably not the best solution.

  121. moparisthebest

    Zash, "package" means npm right?

  122. arc

    See there, confusion 😅

  123. Zash

    moparisthebest, no, "package" = .deb !

  124. moparisthebest

    reminds me of an article I just saw today https://medium.com/@krishna.thokala2010/building-a-simple-irc-with-rust-b7204566d950 he built an IRC server with an http REST framework

  125. moparisthebest

    obviously has no idea what "IRC" is, but that didn't stop him

  126. arc

    Especially for beginners, as someone who has run classes as a paid instructor, I have found podman to be much easier to get started with. Especially for people familiar with Linux

  127. Zash

    the one where the first introduction is "just `alias docker=podman` and you're done" ?

  128. arc

    People can certainly "get started" with docker quickly if they're just typing commands, but then they're usually completely lost.

  129. Zash

    TIL: podman is finally packaged in Debian. Wasn't last time I looked.

  130. Zash

    Thus I've never touched it.

  131. Zash

    And when you say "container", I think of LXC, which is completely different from "Docker"

  132. arc

    Both are podman's directions for people familiar with docker. The commands for surface interaction, things like building and running containers, are very different from commands for hosting it.

  133. moparisthebest

    you mean you don't start out with teaching them how to set up a k8s cluster? but how will they scale????

  134. arc

    LXC is yet another example, yes.

  135. arc

    No my introduction usually is how to go from their own laptops to life cycle of development and deployment. Which in San Francisco is what most companies are focused on.