-
arc
It looks like you're going to have a foss foundations drinkup on BigBlueButton video conference on Feb 5 at 7pm Brussels time.
-
Neustradamus
There is a problem with xmpp.com/www.xmpp.com, on Google, when we search XEP, the results can be https://www.xmpp.com instead of https://xmpp.org.
-
moparisthebest
Does the xsf own that domain?
-
moparisthebest
It looks like it points to our servers, but the certs are wrong
-
Neustradamus
Yes
-
moparisthebest
Needs cert and a 301 redirect
-
jonas’
those are our nameservers, so yeah
-
Neustradamus
Crash?
-
stp
Hi, did anyone ever try to make Google replace the term Jabber with XMPP in the Android contacts?
-
flow
i guess that would first require us to have a clear stance that this is what we want
-
flow
anyhow, I am not aware of any such attempt
-
stp
flow, According to a discussion I initiated in this MUC some days ago the Jabber term should not be used anymore.
-
jonas’
says who?
-
jonas’
my impression was that we’re split in two fractions: one fraction who wishes to market XMPP, one fraction who wishes to market a different term, and for lack of a better one, Jabber is currently their favourite.
-
dwd
Market to whom, is a key deciding factor, I feel.
-
jonas’
that, too
-
jonas’
given that this is about android contacts and the other discussion the other day, I inferred "to users" though✎ -
jonas’
given that this is about android contacts and the other discussion the other day, I inferred "to (IM) users" though ✏
-
dwd
Ah, right. Yes, if we're marketing to users than XMPP is not ideal.
-
dwd
Especially as the XMPP Standards Foundation doesn't appear to want to market to users.
-
MattJ
FWIW it's not only Android, iOS also has a Jabber field
-
MattJ
It probably stems from vCard
-
dwd
Probably not; we added in jabber as a non-standard extension in our standard.
-
MattJ
Oh really?
-
dwd
IIRC, anyway.
-
dwd
Yeah, XEP-0054§2, third para.
-
MattJ
vCard 4 has IMPP it seems
-
jonas’
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6350#section-6.4.3
-
dwd
Does Android actually use vCard4?
-
MattJ
I'd be surprised
-
Zash
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4770 applies to earlier vCard too I think
-
stp
Zash, hm, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4770 just mentions XMPP.
-
mdosch
Marketing Jabber is also a problem as you scare away people who associate it with 'Cisco Jabber' (happened to me twice) and it's a trademark from Cisco. So as long as there is no better term I call it XMPP even if this is not ideal.
-
Zash
stp, the abstract says that it's an URI, the Introduction lists a number of examples
-
Zash
Only mention of XMPP I see is that + informative reference to the xmpp URI spec
-
stp
While the term XMPP may not be ideal, how many products world wide became very successful using names which were probably not ideal? Having *two* names for the *same* thing though is way worse, near fatal even especially since with XMPP there are also all those client names in the mix and to an extent XMPP provider names. I also think XMPP isn't that bad actually.
-
dwd
The IETF would never refer to XMPP as Jabber. The name XMPP was literally invented to avoid that.
-
stp
Zash, ok, but no mention of Jabber.
-
Zash
But that wasn't what that tangent was about
-
dwd
stp, You might notice that "HTTP" and "The Web" are two different names, yet seem to work OK.
-
stp
dwd, those are two different things though.
-
Zash
That was about the IMPP vCard property predating vCard4, and is what's used to store Jabber/XMPP addresses in address books, unless some non-standard property like X-JABBER is used
-
stp
Since I lack the knowledge I'm confused now regarding the Android contacts/Vcard topic. So to clear that up: Does Google just follow what the vCard standard specifies?
-
flow
I think it was labeled "Jabber" in Android many, many years ago
-
flow
Back then Jabber was more used. And nobody ever revisited the name
-
stp
flow, I can confirm that in 2011 is was already labeled Jabber.
-
stp
flow, so probably since Android was started.
-
Zash
Looks like this old Android uses X-JABBER in vCard 2.1
-
Ge0rG
In my legacy Android XMPP code from ten years ago, I have support for imto://jabber/ URIs
-
Daniel
That's still useful today
-
Ge0rG
but it looks like I have no code to actually handle those intents.
-
Ge0rG
oh, it just ignores the scheme. If host == "jabber" then chatWith(path[0])
-
stp
So is there any place where it would make sense to file an issue regrading the use of Jabber or XMPP in Android contacts?
-
Ge0rG
stp: I think that'd be a task for the Jabber Software Foundation
-
moparisthebest
Cisco?
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: oh please no
-
moparisthebest
I figured "Jabber Software Foundation" was "Cisco", don't know who else it'd be :)
-
jonas’
moparisthebest, old name of the XSF, nowadays nonexistent.
-
Daniel
I'm not even sure there is anything in 'android' calling it Jabber. Isn't it just the contacts apps
-
moparisthebest
right, nowadays it's Cisco
-
Daniel
You can probably PR the aosp contact apps
-
Daniel
Or other relevant open source contacts apps
-
Daniel
But that only buys you so much
-
Ge0rG
As a member of the "use Jabber™ for the federated IM network, XMPP for the protocol" faction, I oppose that change.
-
mdosch
Isn't IMPP the vcard standard for im?
-
Neustradamus
The XMPP network :)
-
stp
Daniel, since all contacts app I came across called that field "Jabber" I suspected that that is baked into a layer below the contact apps. Or also possible that all those apps were just reskinned AOSP contact apps.
-
Ge0rG
I have written multiple SMTP messages about that which can be obtained from the IMAP and the HTTPS networks.
-
Daniel
stp: yes a lot of them are probably forked from the asop app
-
mdosch
> Isn't IMPP the vcard standard for im? But at lest Wikipedia mentions X-JABBER as extension.
-
moparisthebest
if "email" were owned by google I'd be opposed to using the word "email" too
-
Zash
Have fun: https://github.com/aosp-mirror/platform_packages_apps_contacts/search?q=Jabber
-
mdosch
> Daniel, since all contacts app I came across called that field "Jabber" I suspected that that is baked into a layer below the contact apps. Or also possible that all those apps were just reskinned AOSP contact apps. Let's have a look at RFC6350 😃
-
stp
Ge0rG, That's the worst solution of the four for marketing the system to the general public.
-
Ge0rG
stp: What do you mean by "that", and what four solutions are you talking about?
-
Ge0rG
As the developer of Bruno the Jabber™ Bear, I am proud to say that I have both the XSF's and bear's approval to use that name.
-
mdosch
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6350#section-6.4.3
-
mdosch
So, shouldn't X-JABBER be dropped in favour of IMPP;PREF=1:xmpp:alice@example.com✎ -
mdosch
So, shouldn't X-JABBER be dropped in favour of IMPP;PREF=1:xmpp:alice@example.com ? ✏
-
Zash
mdosch, this is the way
-
dwd
Zash, The IETF Has Spoken.
-
stp
Ge0rG, Those four being | XMPP | Jabber | Jabber for the network, XMPP for the protocol | Jabber-XMPP or vice versa.
-
Ge0rG
stp: #5 is "zimpy" :P
-
SamWhited
I don't especially care what we call the public network (Jabber or something else) as long as we don't call it "XMPP", so I'm with Ge0rG. They are two different things and shouldn't share a name.
-
stp
Ge0rG, never heard that, but by four I meant the possiblities without introducing an entirely new name.
-
SamWhited
(and also XMPP is a fine name for a protocol, because "who cares?", it's not a fine name for a product. See also the "email/IMAP" example others have also given)
-
SamWhited
stp: "zimpy" is a joke, some people pronounce "XMPP" that way.
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: it's only half a joke
-
SamWhited
Heh, I was just typing "well, I duno if Ge0rG means it as a joke or not"
-
Zash
It's all fun and games until Big Corporation owns the trademark.
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: I think it's a good serious alternative name for jabber in case that one day Cisco wakes up and retracts the XSFs rights
-
stp
The E-Mail comparison is wrong, since E-Mail covers multiple protocols.
-
SamWhited
I don't see what that has to do with anything
-
Ge0rG
But I'm pretty sure that we have enough power to use and re-license Jabber™ in a fashion appropriate for the federated network
-
SamWhited
email is the network, IMAP/SMTP/JMAP are protocols, I wouldn't lump them all together under one name.
-
dwd
stp, X.400?
-
Ge0rG
as long as Cisco doesn't stand up to threaten us or users of the name, I think the permissions given by Jabber Inc to the XSF are sufficient and safe enough to keep the well-established Jabber™ name
-
Ge0rG
stp: so why do you think using "Jabber" for the network is bad?
-
moparisthebest
relying on the goodwill of cisco once the name is in widespread use seems like a terrible plan
-
Daniel
Ge0rG: because jabber is the crappy Cisco product
-
moparisthebest
and that ^
-
Ge0rG
Daniel: most people don't even know it.
-
Ge0rG
also IIRC Cisco has been rebranding it to WebEx-something
-
SamWhited
I tend to agree with Ge0rG that XMPP is a bad name for general users, but also with Daniel et al. that relying on the good will of Cisco seems like a bad idea.
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: stpeter repeatedly made the claim that we are not relying on their goodwill but on our contracts with them.
-
moparisthebest
I've been telling people to install either Quicksy or Snikket, depending if they want to host it themselves or not...
-
SamWhited
Ge0rG: it's the same thing when one side has billions of dollars and lawyers and the other side doesn't.
-
stp
Ge0rG, I don't think it's bad, but the legal uncertainty make it a no-go and the XMPP term already became too prominent by the constant use of terms like Jabber/XMPP and more recently you come across the XMPP more often even than Jabber.
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: yes, but people then don't understand that they can use Quicksy to talk to Snikket users
-
Ge0rG
stp: I think this is only true among protocol nerds
-
moparisthebest
I explain that with an analogy to email where they can email someone @outlook.com with their @gmail.com address
-
Ge0rG
And regarding the legal uncertainity, yes, we are in a sh*tty place. If we (the Jabber Software Foundation) had a million dollars, we could establish Zimpy as the new name of Jabber
-
mathieui
There would probably be a better use for a million dollars though.
-
SamWhited
Personally, if I were making a chat service I probably just wouldn't mention either at all. Maybe a blurb that says "Also chat with your friends on these networks and more!" and stick the conversations logo or what not at the bottom
-
stp
Ge0rG, I don't think so when websites of public XMPP servers don't even mention Jabber.
-
Zash
Sam: Like Snikket!
-
SamWhited
Probably wouldn't even mention Jabber and *definitely* wouldn't mention XMPP, so maybe it wouldn't matter at all to me.
-
SamWhited
Zash: indeed!
-
dwd
SamWhited, I think that at some point, a list of networks becomes unweildy, and you need a collective name.
-
Zash
Tho if you read until the very end of the page about "The Snikket Network", it does say XMPP there
-
SamWhited
dwd: I don't have to actually list every possible thing, just a handful of nice products with good logos. Maybe the last one is the XSF logo and it links to the list of public servers or something.
-
Ge0rG
stp: is that a personal impression or do you have stats? Jabber is a very common term in some Jabber communities, e.g. in Russia
-
Zash
Something something chat-network-interconnect? Inter-chat-net? Internet?
-
moparisthebest
some people call xmpp "part of the fediverse" but that's confusing to me too
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: that only achieves the effect that only people interested in protocols will realize the important fact that it's federated and interoparble, but they already know that.
-
stp
Ge0rG, no stats, but by personal impression the term jabber get's used less and less.
-
SamWhited
Ge0rG: no, it means nobody has to care and users will just see "Oh, my friend used that fancy Snikket logo, maybe I can talk to him too!"
-
SamWhited
Only people interested in protocols will care what "federated" means in the first place
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: users will think "oh no, please not yet another chat app!"
-
dwd
stp, It feels as though you have decided your conclusion and are now working on supporting it with evidence.
-
SamWhited
I don't see why that would be the case if it lists a bunch of shiny logos. If it just says "Compatible with Jabber" though they now have to know that it's not a specific service.
-
dwd
stp, Also, nearly all of my work for the past decade has been with XMPP, but virtually none of it with public chat networks.
-
SamWhited
But I dunno, I have zero idea how a marketing person would approach this
-
moparisthebest
stp, regardless you have your answer, a small group of protocol enthusiasts can't agree on what to call it, good luck convincing anyone else :D
-
Ge0rG
We are getting beaten to death by Matrix marketing.
-
moparisthebest
Ge0rG, matrix marketing or element or riot or ?
-
moparisthebest
naming, it's hard
-
Daniel
I think the approach that snikket and to an extend Conversations are taking (establish your own brand) is the way to go
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: for some reason they don't have any issue with just re-using other brands' names.
-
Daniel
And just put xmpp compatible in a corner somewhere
-
mathieui
moparisthebest, it does not matter, they are marketing it as a bundle (and element = riot nowadays)
-
dwd
mathieui, Aren't both of them New Vector?
-
Ge0rG
Daniel: from each project's perspective, focusing on its own marketing is the most reasonable. But from an ecosystem perspective, everybody will profit from a common name.
-
stp
Calling SMS just that worked too, so the general public should've enough brain power to remember a four letter acronym.
-
Ge0rG
Something something local maxima
-
mathieui
dwd, Matrix is not New Vector, even if it is by and large the same people, they have nonprofit UK foundation
-
SamWhited
stp: I don't think that's true. It's completely anecdotal, but everyone I know knows what "text messaging" are but have no idea what "SMS" or "MMS" are
-
stp
Daniel, "And just put xmpp compatible in a corner somewhere" I would agree on that, though in the current state there would still be a debate to rather put "Jabber-compatible" there.
-
SamWhited
If it's just a brand with a tiny XSF logo in the corner I'm not sure that it matters as much if I put "Jabber" and someone else puts "XMPP"
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: well, let's use the XSF logo then!
-
moparisthebest
actually not a bad idea
-
Ge0rG
"Bruno, the XSF-compatible Chat Bear"
-
stp
SamWhited, in which part of the world is that?
-
Ge0rG
My biggest (but rather small) point with that is that XMPP is more than just federated IM
-
SamWhited
stp: U.S.
-
dwd
Ge0rG, I'm not convinced by "Chat". Or "Bear".
-
dwd
Ge0rG, And yes, as I noted above, I've done a lot with XMPP, some of it federated, none of it on the Internet for consumer chat.
-
dwd
Well, almost none.
-
stp
Why does the XSF not do a democratic vote to settle the matter before it's too late (if it isn't already)?
-
Ge0rG
stp: it's probably too late by 17 years.
-
moparisthebest
probably get a different answer today vs tommorow
-
moparisthebest
and you are asking for a democratic vote between what? 30 people?
-
SamWhited
What is the goal of actually picking one for everybody to use when saying what their messenger is?
-
dwd
stp, The XSF doesn't market consumer chat *at all*.
-
dwd
stp, So a vote would be largely pointless.
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: to make people understand that their messenger can messenge with other messengers that are not named the same
-
moparisthebest
dwd, except for when it does? :) https://xmpp.org/2021/01/instant-messaging-its-not-about-the-app/
-
dwd
stp, You'd need to get the membership to agree to start marketing consumer (and/or enterprise) chat first.
-
dwd
moparisthebest, I'm not sure that is either, actually.
-
SamWhited
I dunno, I'm pretty convinced it won't matter at all unless we get one or two big well known networks using it again. "XMPP" or "Jabber" as a marketable concept basically died with Google Talk IMO. If you don't have a popular brand to advertise compatibility with, it hardly matters if that compatibility is called "Jabber" or "XMPP".
-
SamWhited
So let's get Conversations or Snikket really popular or something first, then we can hash out what logo to put in the corner when it actually matters.
-
stp
SamWhited, but it matters if it's called both variantly.
-
Daniel
I've been advocating for 'Conversations compatible' for a while
-
moparisthebest
dwd, I mean it's certainly not an article targeting developers "Several people have recently reached out to me asking what kind of messenger they should be using now" (first sentence) sounds like consumer chat to me
-
SamWhited
stp: I don't think it does if no one cares about the compatibility anyways
-
SamWhited
I'm not even really convinced it does if there were a giant popular service using it, but at least then there's maybe an argument that it actually maters in some real way
-
moparisthebest
the point I've seen everyone (including me) trying to push lately is that *federation* is what matters
-
dwd
moparisthebest, And then it goes onto suggest that the technology matters more than anything else. If that's marketing to consumers, it's terrible marketing. :-)
-
SamWhited
What dwd said. Nobody outside of a fairly tiny tech crowd cares what federation is or what technology is in use under the hood as long as they can chat with their friends and it has shiny features.
-
dwd
moparisthebest, And broadly, yes, I agree that Federation is a crucial feature.
-
moparisthebest
they do care about federation though, they just don't know the word
-
moparisthebest
they would care if they couldn't email people at different domains though
-
stp
SamWhited, so how would an Monal on iOS user figure out that he can chat with his Conversations using friend?
-
dwd
moparisthebest, SamWhited - I think moparisthebest is right here, users don't know the word federation, but they do understand the outcome.
-
SamWhited
Yah, that's fair, but the point is that still means we shouldn't market federation as a feature (at least not by that name).
-
SamWhited
Get a big popular chat product, then market as "compatible with other big popular chat product!" and people will use it and still won't know that it's federated.
-
stp
It also created a mess when consumer electronic manufacturer all introduced their own name for HDMI-CEC.
-
moparisthebest
right, I think the question is how to say "this app federates with all the other XMPP app" in a way a normal person would understand
-
dwd
moparisthebest, Exactly that.
-
Zash
Call it "bridges" for confusion bonus
-
stp
Small XSF badge on app's, server's and provider's logos would be a start.
-
SamWhited
Exactly. And I doubt they'd understand "Jabber" or "XMPP", so that's why I suspect it would need a big popular service everything can glomp on to (that's a technical term) first.
-
SamWhited
But sure, put the badge in the corner for those that understand it. They'll probably understand it whether it says "XMPP" or "Jabber", so I doubt it matters the more I think about it.
-
moparisthebest
the point is to *not* get a big popular service though, it's to get a healthy distributed/federated service going, at least in my mind anyhow
-
moparisthebest
"you can use any or all of these and still be able to communicate with everyone who chose differently"
-
SamWhited
I didn't say it had to be the only service, but if literally none of them are popular at all it's not helpful
-
SamWhited
Because it doesn't matter what we do, Google or whomever *will* develop a big popular chat service. The question isn't "can we compete with them as a network", because the answer to that is "no". The question is "can we be compatible with them because we convinced them to use a federated protocol"
-
SamWhited
And then use that to our advantage and get people on other nodes.
-
dwd
I think there are actually two big "Magical Things"; one is federation (You can talk to us with any compatible service!) and the other is the End To End Principle (If you're both using our great app Discussions, you can use our great new feature).
-
moparisthebest
I'm not so sure, it's obvious people will switch en-masse very quickly
-
SamWhited
Even better "then can we also convince <other big popular messenger> to be compatible because Google is" or whatever. Then again, maybe we've already seen that the answer to that is also "no", I'm not sure.
-
dwd
SamWhited, Actually, it was other things starting to hook into Google Talk that appeared to pressure Google into dropping interop.
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: Google is developing a big popular chat service once a year.
-
Ge0rG
dwd: "other things" being spambots?
-
dwd
Ge0rG, Also true Probably XMPP again next year.
-
dwd
Ge0rG, No, Microsoft, for one.
-
SamWhited
Ge0rG: exactly, so let's convince them to do new ones that are actually compatible
-
SamWhited
dwd: how so? I thought their argument was "no one else will federate with us, so why bother?"
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: I'm sure you know as well as I do that federated messaging is the opposite of the vendor lock-in goals the bigcorps are following
-
SamWhited
Ge0rG: of course? I don't understand your point
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: unless by "convince" you meant "create legislation"
-
SamWhited
If you want people to understand federation and actually switch to smaller providers, they have to be able to talk to their friends on the big providers. If they start on the big providers, then their friend says "I use small provider with more features", they can switch easily. Also it makes it easier for us to say "Compatible with Google Talk 2.0!" or whatever because everyone will know and care what that is.
-
SamWhited
Ge0rG: sure, I dunno if it's possible or even easy, I just think it's the necessary thing we should be working towards if we're going to talk about marketing names.
-
SamWhited
err, "easy or even possible", you know what I mean.
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: if it would align with their business interests, we would have it for decades now. If it would be orthogonal to their business needs, we'd have somthing like google talk 1.0
-
Ge0rG
Unfortunately, it's opposite to their business needs
-
SamWhited
I'm not sure that it is, we just have to position it correctly.
-
Ge0rG
I'm sure Google would disable federation for gmail as soon as they could get away with it.
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: please tell me more!
-
SamWhited
There were murmors interanlly at HipChat (though I never convinced anyone to let me start on it before it all went under) that if we were federated people would use us because their contractors could be on a different instance, for example. That made handling security between the two domains easy. It also made it easy to bring in a random one-off customer or something into a chat without having to buy them a seat
-
SamWhited
We never got buy in because the feature would have been so expensive to develop, but there were at least a lot of discussions about how it could be a selling point.
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: good point; it's important to the business customers
-
Ge0rG
I'm using MS Teams day-to-day, and its "federation" is just a cruel joke.
-
Ge0rG
And technically it's not even federation because it's all in the same clown.
-
SamWhited
I think you could argue the same for a lot of individual chats too though. Chat isn't where you're making your money if you're Google, it's a value add. Is it a bigger value add if your friends can talk to their friends on Microsoft Chat and say "wow, yours is doing that? That's terrible! You should switch your email to Google, I'm chatting on them right now and it will keep working with all your other friends"
-
moparisthebest
SamWhited, I disagree, just have to make it easy to convince your friends on big providers to talk with you from not-big-provider account
-
SamWhited
(or whatever the thing you're actually competing on is, I suspect email isn't a money maker for them either)
-
Neustradamus
Gaim is the old name of Pidgin Jabber is the old name of XMPP
-
SamWhited
moparisthebest: that's the point, if they can still talk to their friends you can move them over 1 by 1 based on a feature or something they'd like and not have the complete blocker (for most people) of adding another chat app and moving their entire network at once.
-
moparisthebest
all big providers actively block 3rd parties from connecting, that's a non-starter
-
moparisthebest
you make it easy for them to install an app to talk to you
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: vendor lock-in means that once you have a critical mass, federation is harmful to your growth
-
SamWhited
That was the whole point, I was aruging we shoudl be trying to convince them that federation is in their best interest, and then it's also in the interest of the smaller providers
-
moparisthebest
you'll never get there
-
SamWhited
Ge0rG: not if it's only a value add and not your primary product (I think)
-
moparisthebest
I mean, it's a good goal, wouldn't hurt to try, I'd just bet money it wouldn't happen
-
moparisthebest
"hey buddy I know your entire goal is vendor lock-in but how about you implement this thing that works against vendor lock-in as a favor to me?"
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: if it's only a value add, then it's a means to get people onto your vendor solution
-
SamWhited
Ge0rG: sure, so Google wins because they convince people to switch to Google Docs or whatever without losing their social networking bits, and we win because we can convince people to switch to smaller providers by saying "Wow, compatible with Google Talk 2!" or whatever
-
moparisthebest
that's how you get people who hate crappy XMPP because pidgin+google talk sucked
-
SamWhited
Sure, but that's not a problem that we're going to solve by calling it "XMPP" vs "Jabber" and trying to market direct to consumer either.
-
stp
Pidgin and Google Talk sucked? I think it was great at the time.
-
SamWhited
Anyways, I've pretty much convinced myself that we need someone marketing to big providers, but I'm not sure who that is, and the best thing for smaller services is to just ignore XMPP/Jabber and create their own brand, because ours isn't going to do them any favors.
-
SamWhited
stp: at least for me a lot of people I know really liked it at the time, but everyone moved off of it when other providers came along with more features and Google Talk / Pidgin never moved on.
-
moparisthebest
maybe modernxmpp can agree on a logo that means "compatible", perhaps also host a page it can link to to explain in human words what it means, that all projects that want to can link to? cc MattJ
-
Zash
Pidgin and GTalk was probably great ... in 2006. And then it stayed mostly the same.
-
SamWhited
Good idea! I like that
-
moparisthebest
whether that's XSF logo or not no idea
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: ModernXMPP is even more cumbersome than XMPP
-
dwd
Ge0rG, Now there's a statement we can all get behind.
-
MattJ
moparisthebest, I agree with that sentiment, for sure
-
stp
SamWhited, Yes, same for our circle of people allthough we only changed when Goolge announced they would scrap their federating XMPP service and we left Pidgin when it couldn't keep up with XMPP developments.
-
SamWhited
Ge0rG: it doesn't have to say "ModernXMPP", it just has to be a pretty page with some logos on it that says "This service is compatible with all these other services!" o
-
SamWhited
Or be a page that has some general advice on how to do that, which seems like something ModernXMPP would be good at providing
-
jonas’
.oO(Snikket?)
-
dwd
A new logo that tesselated might be a fun thing.
-
moparisthebest
yes exactly what SamWhited said
-
Zash
Might be something to learn from "The Fediverse" aka ActivityPub/MastoPub
-
MattJ
ModernXMPP probably isn't the best term for users, but that can be solved
-
moparisthebest
I mean it'd be cool if xmpp.org could host the page too/instead but that seems more controversial :)
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: let me remind you of XMPP Compliance Suite Compliance Badges.
-
dwd
Bagders!✎ -
MattJ
What ModernXMPP is missing most is wider participation. A few people have contributed a few things, and that's great. But for it to work it needs to be far more comprehensive, well-structured and supported/reviewed by XMPP developers
-
dwd
Badgers! ✏
-
SamWhited
Ge0rG: is your argument that because one thing never materialized another project shouldn't bother making a page or providing guidance?
-
MattJ
I also would like some actual UX people involved
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: not at all. I think that ModernXMPP is a good home for this kind of effort (only second to the Jabber Software Foundation)
-
MattJ
My other problem with ModernXMPP is that moving an open ecosystem is like herding cats... it can be done, but it's painful and takes time
-
moparisthebest
we got that solved, I think Neustradamus can create issues for each project to link the new page+logo ? :D
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: oh dear god please no
-
moparisthebest
this logo seems pretty good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fediverse#/media/File:Fediverse_logo_proposal.svg
-
SamWhited
Please don't even joke about that 😤
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: the xmpp network logo needs to have client tentacles on all those circles
-
mdosch
moparisthebest: A colorful pentagram? > this logo seems pretty good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fediverse#/media/File:Fediverse_logo_proposal.svg
-
jonas’
tentacles!
-
moparisthebest
fediverse has clients too and they aren't on that logo
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: ITYM web browsers
-
SamWhited
https://share.samwhited.com/sam/wAUrEUtGPcemFGBL/bestlogointheworld.png
-
SamWhited
Done!
-
moparisthebest
we got those clients too!
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: missing "Zimpy"
-
SamWhited
Damn it. It was so close to perfect too.
-
Ge0rG
https://www.quickcompany.in/trademarks/3620784-zimpy-label
-
mdosch
I'd like the pentagram turned 180° 🤘🏽
-
Zash
I'd just like to mention this glorious logo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NROL_39_vector_logo.svg
-
SamWhited
oh man, the US military and intelligence agencies come up with awesome logos all the time
-
Ge0rG
maybe we need to hire a designer to make an awesome logo
-
Zash
Ge0rG, worked for Snikket
-
Ge0rG
if it has some pyramid-eye or kraken symbol, it will trigger the fediverse, and as we all know bad press = good press
-
Zash
all press is good press indeed
-
SamWhited
IDGI, is that some fedivserse conspiracy theory iconography?
-
Zash
just don't mention "the competition"
-
Ge0rG
Zash: the snikket logo is cute, not controversial
-
SamWhited
Actually, I probably don't want to know
-
Zash
Ge0rG, I mean the "hire a designer" part
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: nah, it's just the usual conspiracy theory iconography
-
SamWhited
*sigh* okay, TIL. I do not need or want to know more.
-
SamWhited
The garage I've been trying to find funds to open for years uses a font from an old CIA operation. So far no one has noticed, but I'm waiting for the day that people decide we're a front for a secret government takeover of auto mechanics or something
-
dwd
SamWhited, But that's just what you *want* me to think, right?
-
SamWhited
dwd: how'd you know? Who's been talking?
-
dwd
SamWhited, https://xkcd.com/2169/
-
Zash
Everyone knows it, educate yourself!!!11!!eleven
-
SamWhited
classic
-
Zash
Obs: That was satire. Do not use in actual debates.
-
moparisthebest
MattJ what if you toot out a call to the fediverse for logo proposals, seem to be a fair share of graphic-ly inclined people on there? or lazily use the XSF logo, I have no opinions :)
-
MattJ
I think using the XSF logo would confuse matters too much :)
-
Ge0rG
Using the XSF logo for what exactly?
-
dwd
Ge0rG, Everything.
-
SamWhited
I tend to lazily use the XSF logo and see a lot of other sites doing it, but I tend to agree that having something else for "compatible with lots of other things" would be better if we can manage it and make it catch on somehow
-
moparisthebest
the image+link to simple "explains why this is compatible to normal person" page
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: I agree that the logo is actually good enough for that.
-
Zash
XMPP logo on top of a globe and the text "NOBODY IS BEYOND YOUR REACH"
-
Ge0rG
the logo, embedded into a catchy compliance badge
-
Ge0rG
Zash: and a kraken.
-
Ge0rG
can we put a pyramid with an eye into the bottom half of the "X"?
-
Zash
Kraken in the XMPP logo colors?
-
Ge0rG
Zash: yeah, or the fediverse rainbow. Your choice.
-
dwd
I am concerned that there is no discussion of Cthulu in our logo plans.
-
dwd
(Also amused that Kraken was, after all, a popular XMPP-to-anything transport gateway back in the day)
-
moparisthebest
this is why we need graphic-ly inclined people and not developers
-
vanitasvitae
Iͬ̿̋͡҉̸̩̩̣'̸̶̛̹͖̳̐̇̋m̛̜͙̳͐͒̽̀͢ ̧ͬ͑ͥ͏̟̮̟̀h̽̈́͌҉̛̲̜̖͝ę̶̼̭̰̄ͣ̿̕ȓ́ͩ҉̡̢̣̮͕e̡̘̥͋ͪ̊͠͠ͅ ̸̵̪̺̦ͤͣ̇͡t̶̸̨̬̠̤̂͛̈ơ̡̧͕̰͇̄ͦ̚ ̢̹̙̬̾ͭ̊͞͡s̴̸̭͉̲̐̒͑͝t̵̫̰̞̃̍ͭ͟͜ä̛̰͈̞͋̚͝͠ņ̶̨̜͉̜͒ͦ͊d̴͕͙͚ͯ̈̓́͞ạ̢̠̹̏ͪͫ́́r͔͕̫ͬ͗̓́́͢ḍ̴̴̛̱̺̎͑̿i̵ͨͭ̚͏̹̝̝͢ž̸̹̣̬̔ͪ̀͘ȩ̶̵̫͎̹̌͐͆ ̧̢̩̯̙̓̒̑͜y̷̛̮̠͍̏ͬ͌͠ơ̢͕̜̦̊͐ͬ͞u̴̶̷̻̭̗̾̅̚r̵̓̈̚̕҉̲̫͇ ̧̧̠̹̠͆̋ͬ̀c̴̓̊ͧ͏̵̹͚̙o̡̰̙̺̓̏ͣ͠͝m̨̨̛̹̞̝̽̈̓m̸̙̥̖̽̂̄͘͟ų̸̱̝̜̉̿̋͜n̴̴̪̘̲͊̈́̈́͞i̴̸͎͎̩̐̄́͝c̴͚͈̫͒̌͌́͞à̖͍̼̓ͨ͡͡͡t͕̺̂͆̍͘͢͠ͅi̗̘͙̋͆̅̕͞͡o͕̰̮ͨ͋̈́͝͠ņ̶̆ͯ͗҉̳̦̭s̴̡͔̲̪ͮ͛ͥ͜
-
jonas’
that looks fun in the dino preview :D
-
mimi89999
Hello vanitasvitae
-
vanitasvitae
mimi89999: hello there!
-
vanitasvitae
Zimpy, the brother of Zalgo
-
Ge0rG
vanitasvitae: that's my quote of the day
-
vanitasvitae
🏆
-
Ge0rG
vanitasvitae: just one minor nitpick. We need to be gender-neutral, so it should be "sister/brother/sibling"
-
vanitasvitae
Or given how dusty XMPP as a protocol is, simply its Ancestor
-
Ge0rG
XMPP: Supporting Zalgo since 1999 and Emoji since 2010.
-
jonas’
/nick :robotface:
-
emus
Hello fellows, it would be great to have a second reviewer for the French translation: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/875 For all of the other translation I have enough
-
peetah
emus: the translation is currently under review on linuxfr, and I hope it will be synced quite soone in the XSF github repo✎ -
peetah
emus: the translation is currently under review on linuxfr, and I hope it will be synced quite soon with the XSF github repo ✏
-
emus
Ah okay, thats good to know
-
emus
Thanks
-
emus
Hello, I would like to arrange an official mail for the CommTeam. What would be the steps?
-
jonas’
emus, like in email address?
-
jonas’
I think that topic came up in the past
-
emus
Yes, but we stopped talking about it
-
jonas’
I’m trying to find the discussion
-
jonas’
I think we came to the conclusion that for the use case back then, it wasn’t necessary or useful
-
jonas’
what has changed on your side?
-
emus
several social network accounts with several private or non related mails
-
emus
An I would like to have a direct an clear address for the organisation etc.✎ -
emus
And I would like to have a direct an clear address for the organisation etc. ✏
-
flow
some orgs use private mailing lists for this
-
emus
I don't need a have private mail list. I (we) need an email address which is related to XSF and not hosted on any private servers somewhere
-
MattJ
I don't know if we even have that capability currently
-
MattJ
We host mailing lists, I'm not sure if we host any actual mailboxes. I don't think we run an IMAP server, for example.
-
MattJ
But I could be wrong, I haven't looked
-
jonas’
no IMAP
-
jonas’
port 143 timeouts
-
emus
members@xmpp.org so those are all only mail list adresses
-
MattJ
Yes
-
jonas’
yes, the contact addresses are all mailing lists
-
jonas’
which, if you think about it, has some advantages (you can easily add/remove people with access for example)
-
emus
Ok, then that confused me. So there is no official email for xsf etc?
-
jonas’
but you obviously cannot send messages from that address(*)
-
jonas’
emus, there is. I think there’s info@ and board@ and trademark@…
-
emus
Yes, and I cannot register with that
-
jonas’
though the latter may actually just be an alias for a single person
-
emus
Okay, but apart from capacities, I think it should be dealt with the account registrations and the XSF "sovereignty" on this
-
jonas’
running a mail server is not easy™
-
emus
Ok, I thought there is one running already
-
jonas’
I’m doing that for myself and I’ve got it automated to large parts. I could replicate that setup for the XSF, but then I’d be the SPOF
-
emus
SPOF?
-
jonas’
emus, partially. it only does inbound (SMTP) and mailing lists
-
jonas’
single point of failure
-
jonas’
it doesn’t do outbound (Submission) or mailboxes (IMAP)
-
emus
Yes - I see
-
jonas’
so while it is technically a mail server, it is not a full mail setup
-
moparisthebest
isn't that really all you need for registering/maintaining accounts though? (a mailing list, recieve-only) ?
-
jonas’
moparisthebest, in general, yes.
-
jonas’
but emus seems to have special requirements?
-
emus
Okay, but I think the maintenance topic is severe already in general when I hear MattJ (also before). I think this is something that need kinda action. We cannot let basic infrastructure down (at least it sounds like this to me)
-
moparisthebest
I thought emus just wanted an email to use for, say, the twitter account? if so he's asking for a private email list for commteam ?
-
emus
No, receiving is minimum - sending would be "good", but for the moment I could work. But it does not make sense to create it on any non-XSF mail servers
-
MattJ
As has already been suggested, a private mailing list will suffice for that
-
MattJ
That's how the info@xmpp.org contact address for the XSF works
-
moparisthebest
*hopefully* no website exists where you have to *send* an email to verify identity, because email doesn't work that way
-
emus
Point is, when I register with an email to a service, they will only accept this mail in case there are any inquiries to the service
-
emus
yes, what mopar says
-
jonas’
emus, do you have a concrete example of a service where that is the case and there is no contact form on the website or similar?
-
moparisthebest
emus, it's ok because you can fake the sender from any email account :)
-
emus
I dont know jonas' but, I prefer not to register such a one-way email realizing one day that there is a case where I "need" to sent an email.
-
emus
No, thanks moparistthebest
-
emus
But in general, I think it is kind of weird and I am also a bit amazed, that we (the teams, responsible etc) don't have this possibility
-
jonas’
emus, ftr, I’ve been registering on ~all services with one-way addreses for a few years now
-
emus
In terms of Single Points of Failures: I think that is an important topic if the infrastructure capabilities are low.
-
jonas’
after I built a thing which allows me to get a throwaway, one-way email address via an XMPP ad-hoc command ;)
-
emus
jonas' okay, then I do so
-
jonas’
emus, exactly, hence I propose we try to make do with what we have :)
-
emus
at least a way to have it collected
-
moparisthebest
emus, if a service EVER requires you SEND them an email, drop them, they are totally insecure and vulnerable to impersonation
-
emus
jonas', I see but I think even this is not good
-
moparisthebest
there is no way to validate an email you just recieved came from who you think sent it
-
moparisthebest
email is not xmpp
-
moparisthebest
so, recieve-only is fine 100% of the time
-
emus
moparisthebest, I think maybe one day I (we) want to reach out to someone else via such an email.
-
moparisthebest
1. anyone can fake such an email right now 2. don't, just use it for twitter password resets
-
emus
I hope so. I think as a commteam... one wants to be able to send an email or provide this contact 🤷♂️️
-
emus
Okay, wait, I cannot use it as account email?
-
moparisthebest
a mailing list will just take whatever email was sent to it and forward it to your personal email (and everyone else's on the list)
-
emus
No, Im on what jonas' suggested
-
emus
no maillist (at least for now)
-
moparisthebest
you can send an email as bigboss@xmpp.org right now though and it's fairly likely to get through, maybe in spam, but probably will get through
-
moparisthebest
I thought jonas’ suggested a mailing list ?
-
emus
He suggested a receiving email only
-
emus
(I think)
-
jonas’
emus, in case of the XSF infrastructure using a mailing list
-
emus
But I thought I cannot use this for account reference?
-
jonas’
why not?
-
emus
Because any response to this is public I thought?
-
jonas’
response?
-
jonas’
you can also have mailing lists which are not (publicly) archived
-
jonas’
and which are essentially just forwarders to one or more other email addresses
-
moparisthebest
emus, twitter emails a password reset link to commteam@xmpp.org, it gets forwarded to your email, and 2 other members of the commteam, that's it
-
emus
If I place this email to the XSF Fosstodon account, any they send any password or private stuff, then its public
-
jonas’
no
-
jonas’
just don’t enable (public) archives for the list, done.
-
emus
Okay, but there is still a non public archive for XSF responsibles?
-
emus
like, if you want to review a year later
-
jonas’
depends on the configuration
-
jonas’
you can have a public archive, a members only archive, or no archive at all
-
emus
Would member only be legit for that purpose
-
emus
?
-
moparisthebest
seems perfect for it
-
jonas’
yep, I agree
-
emus
Then I would like to request such a list
-
emus
Should be better commteam_internal@xmpp.org
-
jonas’
I’ll see what I can do
-
emus
Okay, take your time of course
-
emus
But generally asking do we have real known Single Point of Failure?
-
moparisthebest
plenty
-
moparisthebest
also depends what you mean by "we"
-
emus
XSF
-
moparisthebest
but, xmpp.org infrastructure-wise, or organization-wise, or this-muc-wise, or?
-
emus
XSF-wise, all critical points
-
moparisthebest
offtopic PSA https://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2021/01/26/3 looks like any user can get root using sudo since 2011, fun
-
jonas’
damn, couldn’t you have told me 10 minutes ago?
-
jonas’
also, holy fuck
-
moparisthebest
I always knew locales were a mistake :)
-
jonas’
brb updating all boxes✎ -
jonas’
brb updating all my boxes ✏
-
Holger
Quite a few people knew sudo is a mistake but nobody ever listened ...
-
SamWhited
I always knew C was a mistake
-
moparisthebest
rust-sudo when
-
lovetox
seriously, everytime someone says to me, why dont you write that in C
-
lovetox
i think of these reports
-
lovetox
and then i think, nahh dont really want to get into this mess
-
Zash
moparisthebest, looks like that is a thing that exists, but all it does is make a program run itself with sudo....