XSF Discussion - 2021-01-29

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  14. stp Hello, I just read https://tigase.net/tigase-im-mix. Until now I didn't know that a public server was already offering MIX although XEP-0369 is still flagged as experimental. Will this year see the broad rollout of MIX supporting servers and clients or is that expected to be to early?
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  18. Zash Maybe, I guess we'll see.
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  21. stp Zash, what's the trend on developers side in regards to the experimental status of the XEP? Is that hindering them or is the XEP so close to final that they can develop full steam ahead anyway?
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  23. Zash Not hindered at all. Lots of Experimental XEPs deployed to production. You just have the risk of the XEP changing and everyone ending up on different versions, creating a fragmented mess.
  24. Zash Experimental mostly means that the author is pretty free to do whatever they want.
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  27. stp Zash, Ok, thanks for that explanation.
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  31. Zash In the end, features users want tend to get implemented and deployed, regardless of the state of XEPs
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  120. jonas’ Zash, thanks for explaining what I meant to lovetox :)
  121. jonas’ your words were better than mine
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  298. paul hi all, I have a quick question about MAM, xep doesn't seems to says the Fin element should have a queryid attribute, still I see that ejabberd set one. Anyone knows if it's ok to have one? (maybe I missed something in the xep)
  299. Zash paul, that's probably a leftover from when <fin> was carried in a message
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  301. paul aah ok make sense, (prosody is setting it to)
  302. paul thanks
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  305. Zash Yeah, an implementation that supports/-ed multiple versions of MAM returned the same <fin> payload in a message or iq depending on version.
  306. Zash Does anything depend on it?
  307. paul correct me if I'm wrong, but currently, sending a fin in an iq with a queryid is against the xep? Or should the xep says it's allowed?
  308. Daniel I think it's technically against the spec. But it's also easy to ignore
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  310. Zash Yeah
  311. paul I'm using the xmpp-rs lib, and parsing is very strict :(
  312. Zash deletes it
  313. Holger Maybe it should be added to the spec 🙂
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  315. jonas’ paul, a library should not reject unexpected attributes anyway
  316. Holger Really?
  317. Zash You should generally ignore what you don't understand.
  318. Holger Within know namespaces?
  319. jonas’ Holger, yeah, learnt that againts an ejabberd instance ;)
  320. Holger But we probably had this discussion 1.000 times.
  321. jonas’ it still sent the @code on <error/>, which isn’t in the recent RFCs anymore
  322. jonas’ but also cases like these with <fin/>… the choice is to only be compatible with 100% bugfree software, or ignore unknown stuff :)
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  327. Holger You might consciously choose to cope with bugs, either with arbitrary bugs or (IMO better) just with known bugs.
  328. jonas’ right
  329. Holger But that's different from saying "I can send what I want because the spec tells ehe recipient to ignore crap".
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  331. Daniel jonas’, technically it's not an unknown atttribute but an entire elment
  332. jonas’ Daniel, huh?
  333. Daniel ah sorry. never mind
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  335. Holger I hadn't even heard of this issue until today, in all those years. Because everyone just ignores all crap :-)
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  338. Zash We sorta added back error/@code to Prosody, the new error model library is shared with the HTTP stack. And MUC uses numeric codes.
  339. Link Mauve Holger, that’s the very reason for xmpp-parsers to be that strict, to find and eventually fix other implementations. :)
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  341. Holger Link Mauve: Absolutely.
  342. Link Mauve Holger, that’s the very reason for xmpp-parsers to be that strict, to find and eventually fix issues in other implementations. :)
  343. Holger There's a dead link to <http://www.xmpp.org/schemas/archive-management.xsd>, I guess that's just a placeholder for when the XEP is no longer Experimental?
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  346. paul > Zash: /me deletes it
  347. paul thanks, that was quick \o/
  348. Zash And then I got complaints immediately from the CI 🙁
  349. paul xD
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  358. Neustradamus Holger: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/413
  359. Holger Isn't that yet another story?
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  365. arc Board time
  366. MattJ No way
  367. MattJ Where did a week go?
  368. arc Right?
  369. Holger paul: Oh I just committed (but not yet pushed) an ejabberd fix. Hadn't seen your PR. Yours breaks the mam:0 case where the queryid attribute must be included.
  370. Zash I'm glad to hear you're having enough fun to forget the time 😀
  371. Holger paul: Would you like to fix that, or would you rather avoid the CLA and/or the work anyway? :-) (I don't care at all.)
  372. Zash paul, Holger: Either of you got stats on mam:0 usage?
  373. Holger (Sorry this should be PMs I guess.)
  374. Holger Zash: Not me, sorry.
  375. Zash Or non-latest usage.
  376. Holger ejabberd supports :tmp because 'some customer' ;-)
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  379. arc There he is!
  380. ralphm bangs gavel
  381. ralphm 0. Welcome
  382. ralphm Hi!
  383. MattJ o/
  384. ralphm Who do we have and do you bring any agenda items?
  385. arc FOSDEM
  386. ralphm dwd, MattJ ?
  387. MattJ Here
  388. ralphm Seve?
  389. MattJ I second FOSDEM/SCAM
  390. ralphm 3 is a narrow quotum, but let's go
  391. ralphm 1. Minute taker
  392. ralphm I forget who's up
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  394. arc dwd: ?
  395. MattJ I don't think I've done it for a while, so I volunteer
  396. ralphm yay
  397. ralphm 2. FOSDEM / SCAM
  398. ralphm arc?
  399. arc Actually last week we didn't do this one because we needed you
  400. arc The only thing I can cover is Outreachy
  401. arc Outreachy and GSoC should be on the agenda too
  402. ralphm ok
  403. MattJ Main question I have is: did someone apply for a FOSDEM "stand"?
  404. ralphm So, on (virtual) FOSDEM, I didn't put in much effort. I guess primarily because I see most value in face-to-face events.
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  406. ralphm So I didn't apply for a "Stand"
  407. MattJ Ok, that's a shame
  408. ralphm There _is_ a RTC devroom
  409. MattJ Yes, and mine is the only XMPP talk in it afaik
  410. ralphm Right
  411. Zash (only XMPP mention in all of FOSDEM afaics)
  412. MattJ I don't think we can just pause all engagement with the community until face-to-face is possible again
  413. ralphm I do agree, I've just been busy with other stuff and wasn't sure if the FOSDEM stand thing would bring anything virtually
  414. MattJ I would have contributed content, and I'm sure other projects would have also
  415. MattJ But anyway, what's done is done, at least we know
  416. ralphm Yup, dropped the ball.
  417. ralphm Sorry
  418. MattJ I think that means there is nothing else XSF-related for FOSDEM this year
  419. MattJ SCAM can work on the summit (or not), I think other community members are pressing forward on that
  420. MattJ Which is good to see
  421. ralphm yeah, I saw that. Yay
  422. arc The summit feels more important anyway
  423. ralphm nods
  424. MattJ I agree there is not a pressing need to locate an online summit temporally with FOSDEM
  425. MattJ But something needs to happen
  426. ralphm What are you thinking of? A communications push?
  427. MattJ Some kind of online replacement for the summit. Otherwise we'll basically have a year off making progress on various protocol matters.
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  429. MattJ I think the idea of focus groups would be good to organize
  430. MattJ Maybe just as we do IRL, asynchronously gather topics on the wiki
  431. MattJ and we assess interest, and schedule some times for each topic
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  433. arc I am kind of relying on the summit to gather sprint topics for March
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  435. arc But we could always build the agenda purely on the wiki and do a breakout over 6 weeks on topics
  436. ralphm That makes sense to me. I think it would be good to coordinate with theTedd on his tales/talks effort
  437. ralphm (as he's scheduled it for next week)
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  439. ralphm or indeed pick a later time
  440. Seve Sorry, I did not have Internet connection
  441. MattJ Sure, we can work it out
  442. ralphm I'm not aware of discussions in SCAM (Guus, nyco, Daniel), but let this be our notice of intent. Doesn't mean they need to do it.
  443. ralphm Who'd like to take this on?
  444. MattJ Agreed
  445. arc I already have my hands full
  446. ralphm Ok, not seeing a response, but we can do this async.
  447. ralphm 3. GSoC
  448. ralphm I think we need to decide to do or don't do this, and we also require an admin for it.
  449. arc Outreachy community sign ups are going on right now. I would be happy to be the admin for GSoC.
  450. arc If no one else is interested
  451. Kev (No-one asked, but I don't have cycles to admin this year)
  452. Kev (But am always around to help if I can)
  453. arc Outreachy differs in that it's not targeting college students, but women of all age. And in the United States, racial minorities traditionally underrepresented in the field
  454. arc And we need to pay for the outreachy students
  455. ralphm If I remember correctly, in 2020, we had flow and marvin as admin and co-admin.
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  457. ralphm Let's keep those topics separate
  458. arc Ok
  459. ralphm Last time there was a concern around the lowered rewards
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  461. ralphm We can apply starting today, until 19. Let's check if, besides arc and Kev, anyone wants to help out.
  462. ralphm And we then discuss next week what we want to do in terms of payments.
  463. arc Sounds good
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  465. ralphm I think we also need to punt on Outreachy in that regard, so let's have that as a second item next week.
  466. arc We actually need to get the application for outreach today or tomorrow
  467. ralphm 4. AOB
  468. ralphm Oh
  469. ralphm Well, while I'd like to support any such effort, if we haven't even reached a decision on payments w.r.t. GSoC, I don't think it is realistic to do so today or tomorrow for Outreachy. Opinions?
  470. arc I would suggest we start the process now, and discuss it further next week. Signing up is a multi-week process.
  471. arc The final list of participating communities is published March 1st
  472. arc After we are signed up as a community, we have to find funding. And that we can discuss next week. Signing up now does not actual participation
  473. ralphm I'm ok with that
  474. arc Because of the funding step it is not as simple as GSoC
  475. ralphm Right
  476. ralphm Seve, MattJ?
  477. arc And having participated in gsoc in the past does make the process more straightforward. We don't have to be vexed as a foss organization.
  478. ralphm nods
  479. Seve agrees
  480. ralphm Cool.
  481. ralphm then, if there's no other business, I'd move to
  482. arc Also just to throw this in, we don't necessarily have to fund every student we want. I can find other funding sources.
  483. ralphm 5. Date of Next
  484. ralphm +1W
  485. ralphm (arc: right)
  486. ralphm 6. Close
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  488. ralphm Thanks all!
  489. ralphm bangs gavel
  490. arc Thanks ralphm and mattj
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  492. Seve Thank you guys, and apologies from my side
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  495. larma fwiw, I'd be available to co-admin again.
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  500. MattJ Sorry, had to dash at :30, will write up and send minutes later
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  505. Kev arc: Is there a TL;DR for Outreachy, that someone who knows GSoC could read?
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  510. arc https://www.outreachy.org/
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  512. arc It is basically GSoC without a single large corporate sponsor funding it, and focused on increasing diversity instead of solely focusing on college students
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  514. arc For most of the world, it is focused on women
  515. Kev Ta. But the basic premises are the same - OSS, definite deliverable rather than just 'internship' type stuff?
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  519. arc Yep
  520. arc And prior participation in GSoC disqualifies candidates
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  523. Kev Oh, looks like quite a number of the OSS XMPP projects wouldn't be eligible anyway, because you can't work on projects that have commercial versions as well.
  524. Kev (paraphrasing)
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  528. Zash says nothing about Prosody Enterprise Edition
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  530. Kev I guess Prosody doesn't have any features that are only available to people who pay, but Tigase, Ejabberd, Mongoose at least (Openfire and Spark in the past, but I don't think that's true these days) wouldn't be eligible. Swift we don't have an enterprise version yet, but it's possible we will, so probably shouldn't participate.
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  533. flow I guess the situation with Openfire/Spark is even a little bit more complicated, as there is no company behind it
  534. flow e.g. what if someones writes an Openfire extension that is only available for money?
  535. Zash Extensions sure complicate it.
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  537. Kev (The exact term is "There should be no difference in functionality between the free and paid versions of the open source project.")
  538. flow basically that is also true for commercial FOSS projects where the company behind it makes everything free to use, but a third party creates extensions for money
  539. moparisthebest So Conversations is eligible? Or not because of the push server?
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  541. Kev Conversations is also interesting because of Quicksy, which has paid-only features, I think? (You can't use the directory unless you pay?) It does all sound a bit complicated compared to GSoC :)
  542. Zash Something as a Service
  543. larma The directory isn't Conversations though. The software can be used with an alternative directory server completely unpaid
  544. larma also the push server is open source, no? Don't see any issue for Conversations.
  545. larma I think this is mostly about the spirit of the project. And Conversations surely is in the spirit of free software even if some hosted services require payments
  546. Holger Quicksy users don't pay anyway, only those who *don't* use Quicksy do :-)
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  548. larma > We do allow communities that provide paid hosting services.
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  558. emus arc, ralphm: Thanks arc for suggestion to sign up at least. I dont know how much I missed of previous discussions. However, I would like to recommend to call for any interested developers and projects in GSoC and at the same time review what the XSF can offer to make it happen. Then the discussion of whether it suits GSoC can start. XSF/XMPP people have mostly worked entirely via remote, we shouldnt let this pass away because of Corona if we actually have interested people. (But I agree that the situation is at least different due to mental loads/issues for many. I hope you got the general point.)
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  560. arc emus: GSoC have always been a remote program
  561. emus Yes, thats what I meant
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  565. emus No actually I meant that counts for XMPP as well. We should make us of that and also that this is not the first time of GSoC, apart from the changes. And I also go with arc not to postpone things any further. If I can do something let me know.
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  567. moparisthebest so is GSoC still a thing or it's been replaced by this outreachy thing?
  568. Kev They're independent things.
  569. Kev GSoC's still happening (a little differently this year, but still happening).
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  572. moparisthebest ah thanks
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  633. emus The blog post transaltions are online: https://xmpp.org/2021/01/messagerie-instantanee-il-ne-sagit-pas-de-lapplication/
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  635. emus https://xmpp.org/2021/01/mesagerie-instantanee-nu-este-vorba-despre-aplicatie/
  636. emus https://xmpp.org/2021/01/mensajeria-instantanea-no-se-trata-de-la-aplicacion/
  637. emus https://xmpp.org/2021/01/instant-messaging-es-geht-nicht-um-die-app/
  638. emus And here if one wants to share: https://fosstodon.org/web/accounts/180044
  639. emus Are there any volunteers to post on Twitter?
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  644. mathieui emus, thanks for publishing all those translations!
  645. mathieui could you merge my PR for article metadata by the way?
  646. emus 👍️ sure
  647. emus I would, but I cannot technically review this, I need help from someone how can confirm this
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