Hello, I just read https://tigase.net/tigase-im-mix. Until now I didn't know that a public server was already offering MIX although XEP-0369 is still flagged as experimental. Will this year see the broad rollout of MIX supporting servers and clients or is that expected to be to early?
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Zash
Maybe, I guess we'll see.
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stp
Zash, what's the trend on developers side in regards to the experimental status of the XEP? Is that hindering them or is the XEP so close to final that they can develop full steam ahead anyway?
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Zash
Not hindered at all. Lots of Experimental XEPs deployed to production. You just have the risk of the XEP changing and everyone ending up on different versions, creating a fragmented mess.
Zash
Experimental mostly means that the author is pretty free to do whatever they want.
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stp
Zash, Ok, thanks for that explanation.
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Zash
In the end, features users want tend to get implemented and deployed, regardless of the state of XEPs
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jonas’
Zash, thanks for explaining what I meant to lovetox :)
jonas’
your words were better than mine
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paul
hi all, I have a quick question about MAM, xep doesn't seems to says the Fin element should have a queryid attribute, still I see that ejabberd set one. Anyone knows if it's ok to have one? (maybe I missed something in the xep)
Zash
paul, that's probably a leftover from when <fin> was carried in a message
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paul
aah ok make sense, (prosody is setting it to)
paul
thanks
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Zash
Yeah, an implementation that supports/-ed multiple versions of MAM returned the same <fin> payload in a message or iq depending on version.
Zash
Does anything depend on it?
paul
correct me if I'm wrong, but currently, sending a fin in an iq with a queryid is against the xep? Or should the xep says it's allowed?
Daniel
I think it's technically against the spec. But it's also easy to ignore
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Zash
Yeah
paul
I'm using the xmpp-rs lib, and parsing is very strict :(
Zashdeletes it
Holger
Maybe it should be added to the spec 🙂
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jonas’
paul, a library should not reject unexpected attributes anyway
Holger
Really?
Zash
You should generally ignore what you don't understand.
Holger
Within know namespaces?
jonas’
Holger, yeah, learnt that againts an ejabberd instance ;)
Holger
But we probably had this discussion 1.000 times.
jonas’
it still sent the @code on <error/>, which isn’t in the recent RFCs anymore
jonas’
but also cases like these with <fin/>… the choice is to only be compatible with 100% bugfree software, or ignore unknown stuff :)
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Holger
You might consciously choose to cope with bugs, either with arbitrary bugs or (IMO better) just with known bugs.
jonas’
right
Holger
But that's different from saying "I can send what I want because the spec tells ehe recipient to ignore crap".
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Daniel
jonas’, technically it's not an unknown atttribute but an entire elment
jonas’
Daniel, huh?
Daniel
ah sorry. never mind
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Holger
I hadn't even heard of this issue until today, in all those years. Because everyone just ignores all crap :-)
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Zash
We sorta added back error/@code to Prosody, the new error model library is shared with the HTTP stack. And MUC uses numeric codes.
Link Mauve
Holger, that’s the very reason for xmpp-parsers to be that strict, to find and eventually fix other implementations. :)✎
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Holger
Link Mauve: Absolutely.
Link Mauve
Holger, that’s the very reason for xmpp-parsers to be that strict, to find and eventually fix issues in other implementations. :) ✏
Holger
There's a dead link to <http://www.xmpp.org/schemas/archive-management.xsd>, I guess that's just a placeholder for when the XEP is no longer Experimental?
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paul
> Zash: /me deletes it
paul
thanks, that was quick \o/
Zash
And then I got complaints immediately from the CI 🙁
paul: Oh I just committed (but not yet pushed) an ejabberd fix. Hadn't seen your PR. Yours breaks the mam:0 case where the queryid attribute must be included.
Zash
I'm glad to hear you're having enough fun to forget the time 😀
Holger
paul: Would you like to fix that, or would you rather avoid the CLA and/or the work anyway? :-) (I don't care at all.)
Zash
paul, Holger: Either of you got stats on mam:0 usage?
Holger
(Sorry this should be PMs I guess.)
Holger
Zash: Not me, sorry.
Zash
Or non-latest usage.
Holger
ejabberd supports :tmp because 'some customer' ;-)
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arc
There he is!
ralphmbangs gavel
ralphm
0. Welcome
ralphm
Hi!
MattJ
o/
ralphm
Who do we have and do you bring any agenda items?
arc
FOSDEM
ralphm
dwd, MattJ ?
MattJ
Here
ralphm
Seve?
MattJ
I second FOSDEM/SCAM
ralphm
3 is a narrow quotum, but let's go
ralphm
1. Minute taker
ralphm
I forget who's up
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arc
dwd: ?
MattJ
I don't think I've done it for a while, so I volunteer
ralphm
yay
ralphm
2. FOSDEM / SCAM
ralphm
arc?
arc
Actually last week we didn't do this one because we needed you
arc
The only thing I can cover is Outreachy
arc
Outreachy and GSoC should be on the agenda too
ralphm
ok
MattJ
Main question I have is: did someone apply for a FOSDEM "stand"?
ralphm
So, on (virtual) FOSDEM, I didn't put in much effort. I guess primarily because I see most value in face-to-face events.
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ralphm
So I didn't apply for a "Stand"
MattJ
Ok, that's a shame
ralphm
There _is_ a RTC devroom
MattJ
Yes, and mine is the only XMPP talk in it afaik
ralphm
Right
Zash
(only XMPP mention in all of FOSDEM afaics)
MattJ
I don't think we can just pause all engagement with the community until face-to-face is possible again
ralphm
I do agree, I've just been busy with other stuff and wasn't sure if the FOSDEM stand thing would bring anything virtually
MattJ
I would have contributed content, and I'm sure other projects would have also
MattJ
But anyway, what's done is done, at least we know
ralphm
Yup, dropped the ball.
ralphm
Sorry
MattJ
I think that means there is nothing else XSF-related for FOSDEM this year
MattJ
SCAM can work on the summit (or not), I think other community members are pressing forward on that
MattJ
Which is good to see
ralphm
yeah, I saw that. Yay
arc
The summit feels more important anyway
ralphmnods
MattJ
I agree there is not a pressing need to locate an online summit temporally with FOSDEM
MattJ
But something needs to happen
ralphm
What are you thinking of? A communications push?
MattJ
Some kind of online replacement for the summit. Otherwise we'll basically have a year off making progress on various protocol matters.
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MattJ
I think the idea of focus groups would be good to organize
MattJ
Maybe just as we do IRL, asynchronously gather topics on the wiki
MattJ
and we assess interest, and schedule some times for each topic
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arc
I am kind of relying on the summit to gather sprint topics for March
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arc
But we could always build the agenda purely on the wiki and do a breakout over 6 weeks on topics
ralphm
That makes sense to me. I think it would be good to coordinate with theTedd on his tales/talks effort
ralphm
(as he's scheduled it for next week)
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ralphm
or indeed pick a later time
Seve
Sorry, I did not have Internet connection
MattJ
Sure, we can work it out
ralphm
I'm not aware of discussions in SCAM (Guus, nyco, Daniel), but let this be our notice of intent. Doesn't mean they need to do it.
ralphm
Who'd like to take this on?
MattJ
Agreed
arc
I already have my hands full
ralphm
Ok, not seeing a response, but we can do this async.
ralphm
3. GSoC
ralphm
I think we need to decide to do or don't do this, and we also require an admin for it.
arc
Outreachy community sign ups are going on right now. I would be happy to be the admin for GSoC.
arc
If no one else is interested
Kev
(No-one asked, but I don't have cycles to admin this year)
Kev
(But am always around to help if I can)
arc
Outreachy differs in that it's not targeting college students, but women of all age. And in the United States, racial minorities traditionally underrepresented in the field
arc
And we need to pay for the outreachy students
ralphm
If I remember correctly, in 2020, we had flow and marvin as admin and co-admin.
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ralphm
Let's keep those topics separate
arc
Ok
ralphm
Last time there was a concern around the lowered rewards
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ralphm
We can apply starting today, until 19. Let's check if, besides arc and Kev, anyone wants to help out.
ralphm
And we then discuss next week what we want to do in terms of payments.
arc
Sounds good
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ralphm
I think we also need to punt on Outreachy in that regard, so let's have that as a second item next week.
arc
We actually need to get the application for outreach today or tomorrow
ralphm
4. AOB
ralphm
Oh
ralphm
Well, while I'd like to support any such effort, if we haven't even reached a decision on payments w.r.t. GSoC, I don't think it is realistic to do so today or tomorrow for Outreachy. Opinions?
arc
I would suggest we start the process now, and discuss it further next week. Signing up is a multi-week process.
arc
The final list of participating communities is published March 1st
arc
After we are signed up as a community, we have to find funding. And that we can discuss next week. Signing up now does not actual participation
ralphm
I'm ok with that
arc
Because of the funding step it is not as simple as GSoC
ralphm
Right
ralphm
Seve, MattJ?
arc
And having participated in gsoc in the past does make the process more straightforward. We don't have to be vexed as a foss organization.
ralphmnods
Seveagrees
ralphm
Cool.
ralphm
then, if there's no other business, I'd move to
arc
Also just to throw this in, we don't necessarily have to fund every student we want. I can find other funding sources.
ralphm
5. Date of Next
ralphm
+1W
ralphm
(arc: right)
ralphm
6. Close
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ralphm
Thanks all!
ralphmbangs gavel
arc
Thanks ralphm and mattj
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Seve
Thank you guys, and apologies from my side
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larma
fwiw, I'd be available to co-admin again.
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MattJ
Sorry, had to dash at :30, will write up and send minutes later
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Kev
arc: Is there a TL;DR for Outreachy, that someone who knows GSoC could read?
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arc
https://www.outreachy.org/
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arc
It is basically GSoC without a single large corporate sponsor funding it, and focused on increasing diversity instead of solely focusing on college students
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arc
For most of the world, it is focused on women
Kev
Ta. But the basic premises are the same - OSS, definite deliverable rather than just 'internship' type stuff?
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arc
Yep
arc
And prior participation in GSoC disqualifies candidates
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Kev
Oh, looks like quite a number of the OSS XMPP projects wouldn't be eligible anyway, because you can't work on projects that have commercial versions as well.
Kev
(paraphrasing)
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Zashsays nothing about Prosody Enterprise Edition
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Kev
I guess Prosody doesn't have any features that are only available to people who pay, but Tigase, Ejabberd, Mongoose at least (Openfire and Spark in the past, but I don't think that's true these days) wouldn't be eligible. Swift we don't have an enterprise version yet, but it's possible we will, so probably shouldn't participate.
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flow
I guess the situation with Openfire/Spark is even a little bit more complicated, as there is no company behind it
flow
e.g. what if someones writes an Openfire extension that is only available for money?
Zash
Extensions sure complicate it.
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Kev
(The exact term is "There should be no difference in functionality between the free and paid versions of the open source project.")
flow
basically that is also true for commercial FOSS projects where the company behind it makes everything free to use, but a third party creates extensions for money
moparisthebest
So Conversations is eligible? Or not because of the push server?
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Kev
Conversations is also interesting because of Quicksy, which has paid-only features, I think? (You can't use the directory unless you pay?) It does all sound a bit complicated compared to GSoC :)
Zash
Something as a Service
larma
The directory isn't Conversations though. The software can be used with an alternative directory server completely unpaid
larma
also the push server is open source, no? Don't see any issue for Conversations.
larma
I think this is mostly about the spirit of the project. And Conversations surely is in the spirit of free software even if some hosted services require payments
Holger
Quicksy users don't pay anyway, only those who *don't* use Quicksy do :-)
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larma
> We do allow communities that provide paid hosting services.
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emus
arc, ralphm:
Thanks arc for suggestion to sign up at least.
I dont know how much I missed of previous discussions. However, I would like to recommend to call for any interested developers and projects in GSoC and at the same time review what the XSF can offer to make it happen. Then the discussion of whether it suits GSoC can start.
XSF/XMPP people have mostly worked entirely via remote, we shouldnt let this pass away because of Corona if we actually have interested people.
(But I agree that the situation is at least different due to mental loads/issues for many. I hope you got the general point.)
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arc
emus: GSoC have always been a remote program
emus
Yes, thats what I meant
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emus
No actually I meant that counts for XMPP as well. We should make us of that and also that this is not the first time of GSoC, apart from the changes. And I also go with arc not to postpone things any further. If I can do something let me know.
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moparisthebest
so is GSoC still a thing or it's been replaced by this outreachy thing?
Kev
They're independent things.
Kev
GSoC's still happening (a little differently this year, but still happening).
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moparisthebest
ah thanks
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emus
The blog post transaltions are online: https://xmpp.org/2021/01/messagerie-instantanee-il-ne-sagit-pas-de-lapplication/