XSF Discussion - 2021-01-29

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  14. stp

    Hello, I just read https://tigase.net/tigase-im-mix. Until now I didn't know that a public server was already offering MIX although XEP-0369 is still flagged as experimental. Will this year see the broad rollout of MIX supporting servers and clients or is that expected to be to early?

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  18. Zash

    Maybe, I guess we'll see.

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  21. stp

    Zash, what's the trend on developers side in regards to the experimental status of the XEP? Is that hindering them or is the XEP so close to final that they can develop full steam ahead anyway?

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  23. Zash

    Not hindered at all. Lots of Experimental XEPs deployed to production. You just have the risk of the XEP changing and everyone ending up on different versions, creating a fragmented mess.

  24. Zash

    Experimental mostly means that the author is pretty free to do whatever they want.

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  27. stp

    Zash, Ok, thanks for that explanation.

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  31. Zash

    In the end, features users want tend to get implemented and deployed, regardless of the state of XEPs

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  120. jonas’

    Zash, thanks for explaining what I meant to lovetox :)

  121. jonas’

    your words were better than mine

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  298. paul

    hi all, I have a quick question about MAM, xep doesn't seems to says the Fin element should have a queryid attribute, still I see that ejabberd set one. Anyone knows if it's ok to have one? (maybe I missed something in the xep)

  299. Zash

    paul, that's probably a leftover from when <fin> was carried in a message

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  301. paul

    aah ok make sense, (prosody is setting it to)

  302. paul


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  305. Zash

    Yeah, an implementation that supports/-ed multiple versions of MAM returned the same <fin> payload in a message or iq depending on version.

  306. Zash

    Does anything depend on it?

  307. paul

    correct me if I'm wrong, but currently, sending a fin in an iq with a queryid is against the xep? Or should the xep says it's allowed?

  308. Daniel

    I think it's technically against the spec. But it's also easy to ignore

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  310. Zash


  311. paul

    I'm using the xmpp-rs lib, and parsing is very strict :(

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  313. Holger

    Maybe it should be added to the spec 🙂

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  315. jonas’

    paul, a library should not reject unexpected attributes anyway

  316. Holger


  317. Zash

    You should generally ignore what you don't understand.

  318. Holger

    Within know namespaces?

  319. jonas’

    Holger, yeah, learnt that againts an ejabberd instance ;)

  320. Holger

    But we probably had this discussion 1.000 times.

  321. jonas’

    it still sent the @code on <error/>, which isn’t in the recent RFCs anymore

  322. jonas’

    but also cases like these with <fin/>… the choice is to only be compatible with 100% bugfree software, or ignore unknown stuff :)

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  327. Holger

    You might consciously choose to cope with bugs, either with arbitrary bugs or (IMO better) just with known bugs.

  328. jonas’


  329. Holger

    But that's different from saying "I can send what I want because the spec tells ehe recipient to ignore crap".

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  331. Daniel

    jonas’, technically it's not an unknown atttribute but an entire elment

  332. jonas’

    Daniel, huh?

  333. Daniel

    ah sorry. never mind

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  335. Holger

    I hadn't even heard of this issue until today, in all those years. Because everyone just ignores all crap :-)

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  338. Zash

    We sorta added back error/@code to Prosody, the new error model library is shared with the HTTP stack. And MUC uses numeric codes.

  339. Link Mauve

    Holger, that’s the very reason for xmpp-parsers to be that strict, to find and eventually fix other implementations. :)

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  341. Holger

    Link Mauve: Absolutely.

  342. Link Mauve

    Holger, that’s the very reason for xmpp-parsers to be that strict, to find and eventually fix issues in other implementations. :)

  343. Holger

    There's a dead link to <http://www.xmpp.org/schemas/archive-management.xsd>, I guess that's just a placeholder for when the XEP is no longer Experimental?

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  346. paul

    > Zash: /me deletes it

  347. paul

    thanks, that was quick \o/

  348. Zash

    And then I got complaints immediately from the CI 🙁

  349. paul


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  358. Neustradamus

    Holger: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/413

  359. Holger

    Isn't that yet another story?

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  365. arc

    Board time

  366. MattJ

    No way

  367. MattJ

    Where did a week go?

  368. arc


  369. Holger

    paul: Oh I just committed (but not yet pushed) an ejabberd fix. Hadn't seen your PR. Yours breaks the mam:0 case where the queryid attribute must be included.

  370. Zash

    I'm glad to hear you're having enough fun to forget the time 😀

  371. Holger

    paul: Would you like to fix that, or would you rather avoid the CLA and/or the work anyway? :-) (I don't care at all.)

  372. Zash

    paul, Holger: Either of you got stats on mam:0 usage?

  373. Holger

    (Sorry this should be PMs I guess.)

  374. Holger

    Zash: Not me, sorry.

  375. Zash

    Or non-latest usage.

  376. Holger

    ejabberd supports :tmp because 'some customer' ;-)

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  379. arc

    There he is!

  380. ralphm bangs gavel

  381. ralphm

    0. Welcome

  382. ralphm


  383. MattJ


  384. ralphm

    Who do we have and do you bring any agenda items?

  385. arc


  386. ralphm

    dwd, MattJ ?

  387. MattJ


  388. ralphm


  389. MattJ

    I second FOSDEM/SCAM

  390. ralphm

    3 is a narrow quotum, but let's go

  391. ralphm

    1. Minute taker

  392. ralphm

    I forget who's up

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  394. arc

    dwd: ?

  395. MattJ

    I don't think I've done it for a while, so I volunteer

  396. ralphm


  397. ralphm

    2. FOSDEM / SCAM

  398. ralphm


  399. arc

    Actually last week we didn't do this one because we needed you

  400. arc

    The only thing I can cover is Outreachy

  401. arc

    Outreachy and GSoC should be on the agenda too

  402. ralphm


  403. MattJ

    Main question I have is: did someone apply for a FOSDEM "stand"?

  404. ralphm

    So, on (virtual) FOSDEM, I didn't put in much effort. I guess primarily because I see most value in face-to-face events.

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  406. ralphm

    So I didn't apply for a "Stand"

  407. MattJ

    Ok, that's a shame

  408. ralphm

    There _is_ a RTC devroom

  409. MattJ

    Yes, and mine is the only XMPP talk in it afaik

  410. ralphm


  411. Zash

    (only XMPP mention in all of FOSDEM afaics)

  412. MattJ

    I don't think we can just pause all engagement with the community until face-to-face is possible again

  413. ralphm

    I do agree, I've just been busy with other stuff and wasn't sure if the FOSDEM stand thing would bring anything virtually

  414. MattJ

    I would have contributed content, and I'm sure other projects would have also

  415. MattJ

    But anyway, what's done is done, at least we know

  416. ralphm

    Yup, dropped the ball.

  417. ralphm


  418. MattJ

    I think that means there is nothing else XSF-related for FOSDEM this year

  419. MattJ

    SCAM can work on the summit (or not), I think other community members are pressing forward on that

  420. MattJ

    Which is good to see

  421. ralphm

    yeah, I saw that. Yay

  422. arc

    The summit feels more important anyway

  423. ralphm nods

  424. MattJ

    I agree there is not a pressing need to locate an online summit temporally with FOSDEM

  425. MattJ

    But something needs to happen

  426. ralphm

    What are you thinking of? A communications push?

  427. MattJ

    Some kind of online replacement for the summit. Otherwise we'll basically have a year off making progress on various protocol matters.

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  429. MattJ

    I think the idea of focus groups would be good to organize

  430. MattJ

    Maybe just as we do IRL, asynchronously gather topics on the wiki

  431. MattJ

    and we assess interest, and schedule some times for each topic

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  433. arc

    I am kind of relying on the summit to gather sprint topics for March

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  435. arc

    But we could always build the agenda purely on the wiki and do a breakout over 6 weeks on topics

  436. ralphm

    That makes sense to me. I think it would be good to coordinate with theTedd on his tales/talks effort

  437. ralphm

    (as he's scheduled it for next week)

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  439. ralphm

    or indeed pick a later time

  440. Seve

    Sorry, I did not have Internet connection

  441. MattJ

    Sure, we can work it out

  442. ralphm

    I'm not aware of discussions in SCAM (Guus, nyco, Daniel), but let this be our notice of intent. Doesn't mean they need to do it.

  443. ralphm

    Who'd like to take this on?

  444. MattJ


  445. arc

    I already have my hands full

  446. ralphm

    Ok, not seeing a response, but we can do this async.

  447. ralphm

    3. GSoC

  448. ralphm

    I think we need to decide to do or don't do this, and we also require an admin for it.

  449. arc

    Outreachy community sign ups are going on right now. I would be happy to be the admin for GSoC.

  450. arc

    If no one else is interested

  451. Kev

    (No-one asked, but I don't have cycles to admin this year)

  452. Kev

    (But am always around to help if I can)

  453. arc

    Outreachy differs in that it's not targeting college students, but women of all age. And in the United States, racial minorities traditionally underrepresented in the field

  454. arc

    And we need to pay for the outreachy students

  455. ralphm

    If I remember correctly, in 2020, we had flow and marvin as admin and co-admin.

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  457. ralphm

    Let's keep those topics separate

  458. arc


  459. ralphm

    Last time there was a concern around the lowered rewards

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  461. ralphm

    We can apply starting today, until 19. Let's check if, besides arc and Kev, anyone wants to help out.

  462. ralphm

    And we then discuss next week what we want to do in terms of payments.

  463. arc

    Sounds good

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  465. ralphm

    I think we also need to punt on Outreachy in that regard, so let's have that as a second item next week.

  466. arc

    We actually need to get the application for outreach today or tomorrow

  467. ralphm

    4. AOB

  468. ralphm


  469. ralphm

    Well, while I'd like to support any such effort, if we haven't even reached a decision on payments w.r.t. GSoC, I don't think it is realistic to do so today or tomorrow for Outreachy. Opinions?

  470. arc

    I would suggest we start the process now, and discuss it further next week. Signing up is a multi-week process.

  471. arc

    The final list of participating communities is published March 1st

  472. arc

    After we are signed up as a community, we have to find funding. And that we can discuss next week. Signing up now does not actual participation

  473. ralphm

    I'm ok with that

  474. arc

    Because of the funding step it is not as simple as GSoC

  475. ralphm


  476. ralphm

    Seve, MattJ?

  477. arc

    And having participated in gsoc in the past does make the process more straightforward. We don't have to be vexed as a foss organization.

  478. ralphm nods

  479. Seve agrees

  480. ralphm


  481. ralphm

    then, if there's no other business, I'd move to

  482. arc

    Also just to throw this in, we don't necessarily have to fund every student we want. I can find other funding sources.

  483. ralphm

    5. Date of Next

  484. ralphm


  485. ralphm

    (arc: right)

  486. ralphm

    6. Close

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  488. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  489. ralphm bangs gavel

  490. arc

    Thanks ralphm and mattj

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  492. Seve

    Thank you guys, and apologies from my side

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  495. larma

    fwiw, I'd be available to co-admin again.

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  500. MattJ

    Sorry, had to dash at :30, will write up and send minutes later

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  505. Kev

    arc: Is there a TL;DR for Outreachy, that someone who knows GSoC could read?

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  510. arc


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  512. arc

    It is basically GSoC without a single large corporate sponsor funding it, and focused on increasing diversity instead of solely focusing on college students

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  514. arc

    For most of the world, it is focused on women

  515. Kev

    Ta. But the basic premises are the same - OSS, definite deliverable rather than just 'internship' type stuff?

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  519. arc


  520. arc

    And prior participation in GSoC disqualifies candidates

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  523. Kev

    Oh, looks like quite a number of the OSS XMPP projects wouldn't be eligible anyway, because you can't work on projects that have commercial versions as well.

  524. Kev


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  528. Zash says nothing about Prosody Enterprise Edition

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  530. Kev

    I guess Prosody doesn't have any features that are only available to people who pay, but Tigase, Ejabberd, Mongoose at least (Openfire and Spark in the past, but I don't think that's true these days) wouldn't be eligible. Swift we don't have an enterprise version yet, but it's possible we will, so probably shouldn't participate.

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  533. flow

    I guess the situation with Openfire/Spark is even a little bit more complicated, as there is no company behind it

  534. flow

    e.g. what if someones writes an Openfire extension that is only available for money?

  535. Zash

    Extensions sure complicate it.

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  537. Kev

    (The exact term is "There should be no difference in functionality between the free and paid versions of the open source project.")

  538. flow

    basically that is also true for commercial FOSS projects where the company behind it makes everything free to use, but a third party creates extensions for money

  539. moparisthebest

    So Conversations is eligible? Or not because of the push server?

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  541. Kev

    Conversations is also interesting because of Quicksy, which has paid-only features, I think? (You can't use the directory unless you pay?) It does all sound a bit complicated compared to GSoC :)

  542. Zash

    Something as a Service

  543. larma

    The directory isn't Conversations though. The software can be used with an alternative directory server completely unpaid

  544. larma

    also the push server is open source, no? Don't see any issue for Conversations.

  545. larma

    I think this is mostly about the spirit of the project. And Conversations surely is in the spirit of free software even if some hosted services require payments

  546. Holger

    Quicksy users don't pay anyway, only those who *don't* use Quicksy do :-)

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  548. larma

    > We do allow communities that provide paid hosting services.

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  558. emus

    arc, ralphm: Thanks arc for suggestion to sign up at least. I dont know how much I missed of previous discussions. However, I would like to recommend to call for any interested developers and projects in GSoC and at the same time review what the XSF can offer to make it happen. Then the discussion of whether it suits GSoC can start. XSF/XMPP people have mostly worked entirely via remote, we shouldnt let this pass away because of Corona if we actually have interested people. (But I agree that the situation is at least different due to mental loads/issues for many. I hope you got the general point.)

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  560. arc

    emus: GSoC have always been a remote program

  561. emus

    Yes, thats what I meant

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  565. emus

    No actually I meant that counts for XMPP as well. We should make us of that and also that this is not the first time of GSoC, apart from the changes. And I also go with arc not to postpone things any further. If I can do something let me know.

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  567. moparisthebest

    so is GSoC still a thing or it's been replaced by this outreachy thing?

  568. Kev

    They're independent things.

  569. Kev

    GSoC's still happening (a little differently this year, but still happening).

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  572. moparisthebest

    ah thanks

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  633. emus

    The blog post transaltions are online: https://xmpp.org/2021/01/messagerie-instantanee-il-ne-sagit-pas-de-lapplication/

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  635. emus


  636. emus


  637. emus


  638. emus

    And here if one wants to share: https://fosstodon.org/web/accounts/180044

  639. emus

    Are there any volunteers to post on Twitter?

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  644. mathieui

    emus, thanks for publishing all those translations!

  645. mathieui

    could you merge my PR for article metadata by the way?

  646. emus

    👍️ sure

  647. emus

    I would, but I cannot technically review this, I need help from someone how can confirm this

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