XSF Discussion - 2021-01-30

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  227. flow why don't we have 'archived' notifications, or do we?
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  232. MattJ flow, what do you mean?
  233. flow MattJ, I send you a message, your user MAM archives the message AND sends me a notification that it did
  234. MattJ Ah, no
  235. flow I wonder if that's a bad or good thing, or sometimes good and sometimes bad
  236. flow OTOH I can query your features and assume that the message will probably be archives
  237. MattJ Server-sent receipts would be nice
  238. MattJ So all a client would need to do is ack with 198, and the server would automatically generate a receipt (instead of potentially multiple devices each sending their own)
  239. mathieui flow, that would probably be a bit wasteful in terms of resources, wound’nt it? ("ack-ing" every archived message)
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  241. flow mathieui, not sure about that
  242. flow the sending entities connection is probably still "hot"
  243. mathieui True.
  244. mathieui But since mam preferences are user-wide, would it not make more sense to advertise it, instead of "every message", have a notification when it’s enabled/disabled for remote entities you are chatting with (probably restricted to roster for privacy reasons)
  245. flow mathieui, that would be an option, yes. but then you don't know for sure that the message was archived, and more importantly, that the recipient is able to read it (if using a MAM-enabled client)
  246. flow I am also not sure that you can or should announce the mam preferences, plus there could be mam configuration that says "archive all message, but not from user x"
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  248. mathieui indeed
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  253. MattJ Well the cheaper option is not to ack every message, but bounce errors in any case where an archivable stanza won't be archived (or immediately delivered)
  254. emus Good morning, again the question for volunteers to tweet the translation posts. The tweets are prepared already
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  261. mathieui I have a question regarding MUC invitations; for private rooms, I assume it makes sense to not rely on XEP-0249 but use mediated instead, so that the room can add people in the member list?
  262. MattJ Correct
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  284. lovetox except mathieui the user you send this invite to has enabled "Ignore all messages from contacts not in my roster"
  285. mathieui soo… send the two anyway?
  286. lovetox its unsolved
  287. lovetox there is no perfect way
  288. lovetox but yeah i would go with mediated
  289. lovetox sending both could work
  290. lovetox yeah why not
  291. lovetox but sending direct is only useful if you are admin and can add the user beforhand
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  293. lovetox actually mediated is the only way that makes sense
  294. lovetox what the server should do probably is disco the domain once he sees an invite
  295. lovetox find out that its a muc
  296. lovetox then proceed to deliver the invite also to people that ignore stuff which is not in their contact list
  297. lovetox oh wait, thats not even a server setting
  298. lovetox clients implement this on their own
  299. lovetox nah i think those people just cant get invites 🤷‍♀️️
  300. jonas’ also that would open the gate to invite spam which would normally be blocked by ignoring invites from non-contacts :)
  301. mathieui yes, although that raises the bar as spammers usually get normal accounts on open IBR servers instead of domains
  302. lovetox but clients could do a disco on receiving a invite
  303. lovetox and show the user anyway
  304. lovetox so yeah use mediated, and clients that implement such options should make it work for mucs
  305. mathieui jonas’, though, mediated invites include the JID of the sender, so an additional filter can be used here (only accept if it is from someone in your roster)
  306. mathieui at this point bypassing it means it is a very targeted attack
  307. jonas’ mathieui, which can be forged by a mailicous MUC
  308. mathieui yes, but they have to know your roster
  309. mathieui though sure, they can say it’s from Link Mauve
  310. jonas’ for example, yes
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  324. Link Mauve Why me?! :D
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  348. theTedd Link Mauve: guilty!
  349. theTedd can I get a quick (non-binding) show of intent from everyone for posting tales/talks?
  350. MattJ Are we at recorded videos now?
  351. theTedd I assumed people could record and post them for group watching on thu-fri
  352. theTedd I'm just wondering how are considering doing so
  353. theTedd how many
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  382. SamWhited theTedd: I love the idea, but I'm afraid a week really isn't enough time to prepare a talk even if it is only a 15 minute lightning round. Maybe this weekend if I finish the tasks I need to get done quicker than expected, but this is basically the only time I'll have and we only learned about it yesterday
  383. SamWhited I may do a quick summary post of a paragraph or two of what's happened in my various XMPP projects over the last year, that part I'm sure I can find an hour or two to do
  384. theTedd I'm aware it was late notice, nothing else seemed to be going on for Summit, so it was more a random idea; I have no problem with moving it to a later date
  385. Zash I could, at most, maybe, do a short writeup of stuff I've done. Minimal and outdated experience in video production and giving talks, no chance of refreshing that in a week...
  386. SamWhited I'm not sure how long it takes others to prepare something, but for me personally it was definitely short notice. Although I'm not sure anything in my work this past year is talk worthy anyways. Maybe the message Styling stuff, I dunno.
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  389. theTedd how would 20-21 February suit everyone?
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  396. goffi theTedd: Hi, same opinion has SamWhited and 20/21 would suit better for me. Is the event supposed to be only for XSF members/XMPP devs, or is it supposed to be open to more general audience? Just to know which audience the talk should target.
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  398. theTedd I don't see why it should be limited only to members, but I wouldn't assume an entirely novice crowd
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  400. theTedd some kind of "look what XMPP has to offer" event wouldn't be bad for marketing, but it would have to be a different arrangement to this
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  407. SamWhited I guess I could do my "Intro to XMPP" talk that I do for lunch-and-learn type things at work sometimes. I haven't given it in a while, and it would probably be completely useless for this crowd, but in a selfish way I might get better feedback on it from this group.
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  413. theTedd as long as you open with "I know you all know this, I'm looking for feedback (please hurt me)" you should be good
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  415. theTedd you could take the chance to promote Mellium and the amazing benefits of Go
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  419. MattJ 20-21 sounds good to me. I'm more likely to be able to participate with a bit more notice
  420. MattJ I just spent a bunch of time recording my FOSDEM talk this week, it wasn't much fun and I'm not inclined to jump back to recording again right now if I can help it :)
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  422. theTedd that's understandable
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  456. mathieui Anyone knows what is the point in having MIX channels in the user’s roster, with no difference at all from other roster items? Since they are only sent to MIX-capable clients, the MIX-PAM part could already do some magic and forward the presence from them without needing roster items, I believe?
  457. mathieui (also forces to disco every item because otherwise the roster will be a mess)
  458. Andrzej mathieui, it is useful for automatic joining and syncing joined channels between clients
  459. mathieui That makes sense, but I wish the items were annotated somehow
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  461. Andrzej thanks to the roster extensions, client can discover joined channels, users participant id within the channel and us it
  462. Andrzej but they are
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  464. Andrzej but only for MIX capable (or MIX-PAM capable) clients
  465. mathieui Hm, that is true in MIX-PAM indeed, I guess I should open a bug report against tigase then
  466. Andrzej why? what do you think is incorrect?
  467. mathieui Andrzej, my xmpp.cloud test account is not returning any annotations for mix rooms
  468. Andrzej do you sent roster query with MIX-PAM annotation?
  469. Andrzej do you send roster query with MIX-PAM annotation?
  470. mathieui SEND: <iq id="fbb620f617ca4e44a2a146e3d66d8f9c" type="get"><query xmlns="jabber:iq:roster" ver="" /></iq> RECV: …<query xmlns="jabber:iq:roster" ver="6ca9196f751b5c21eafb3c0423bd3e9e">< item name="………" subscription="both" jid="……@mix.xmpp.cloud" /></query>
  471. mathieui no, I do not
  472. Andrzej then it is correct
  473. Andrzej https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0405.html#mix-roster-capability-sharing
  474. Andrzej > A MIX client MAY request that the server returns this additional information that annotates roster elements with MIX capability. The server MUST return the additional information. The request is made by extending the standard roster get request by adding a child element <annotate/> to the <query/> element. The <annotate/> element is qualified by the ‘urn:xmpp:mix:roster:0' namespace.
  475. mathieui That is true, but it seems a bit cumbersome to me, as you cannot simply use your roster query result, but must filter out things with an additional request
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  477. mathieui I don’t get why it is done like this (as this only concerns MIX-PAM aware clients, no need to care about breaking compatibility by introducing elements in the normal roster query)
  478. Andrzej if you ask for a roster with annotations, then you get full roster with annotated items and you can just filter them out
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  480. mathieui Yes, I’ll do that, thanks
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  658. marek has joined
  659. murabito has joined