XSF Discussion - 2021-02-04

  1. dwd

    New sudo exploit. Same as old one, basically, but affects MacOS: https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/latest-macos-big-sur-also-has-sudo-root-privilege-escalation-flaw/amp/

  2. jonas’

    dwd, holy, I just saw the "new sudo exploit" in the dino preview and you scared me

  3. Ge0rG

    Well, after multiple years of CPU cache exploitations, nobody should be sharing the same piece of hardware with multiple untrusted users.

  4. jonas’

    Ge0rG, back to ssh login as root?

  5. Ge0rG

    my root is my castle.

  6. jonas’

    Ge0rG, also, isn’t yax.im running in a LXC-but-worse?

  7. Ge0rG

    jonas’: yes, it is.

  8. Ge0rG

    Which is also why I don't host my own private account on yax.im ;)

  9. Holger

    > back to ssh login as root? Or back to su(1).

  10. dwd

    Single-user mode is the new multiuser mode?

  11. Zash

    The return of Personal Computing!

  12. dwd

    J symbol-shift+P symbol-shift+P

  13. moparisthebest

    it's less of an issue on mac since apple just has permanent root to do whatever they want whenever they want anyway :)

  14. deuill

    > Does anyone have a client recommendation that actually works for Windows? Got a friend asking and, sadly, I have no idea what to tell them I haven’t used this but seems like a viable choice, and is under active development: https://uwpx.org

  15. deuill

    OMEMO in group-chats is apparently still WIP, though, as are a few other pieces.

  16. lovetox


  17. deuill

    Well, as an alternative to Gajim that was already mentioned. UWPX also seems to specifically target Windows 10 UX, which might make it a better choice.

  18. deuill

    Though it's likely less mature than Gajim.

  19. SamWhited

    Cool, thanks. I seriously doubt they want or need OMEMO, so that doesn't matter. I'll send it their way

  20. moparisthebest

    there is also Dino

  21. moparisthebest

    if you want some bleeding edge stuff, someone has been providing windows builds

  22. SamWhited

    The Dino UI has been too buggy to recommend it yet in my experience

  23. SamWhited

    Mostly around MAM stuff. It locks up constantly, creates thousands of notifications, etc. some of that may have been fixed of course since last time, I don't use it every day.

  24. SamWhited

    But At least the last time I tried it it still did the thing where for a minute or two all the chats were constantly flashing and slowly refreshing and moving around while it imported messages

  25. moparisthebest

    gajim does that for me too

  26. edhelas

    same as Movim

  27. SamWhited

    I haven't actually noticed issues with Gajim, but maybe it's because I don't have the chats actively opened and it doesn't re-order by last message in the left hand bar thing

  28. edhelas

    it's really difficult to clearly retrieve the MAM archive without bringing those performances issues, UI refreshes or some refresh bugs ("holes in the logs")

  29. SamWhited

    Actually, I wonder how UWPX handles bookmarks? Gajim they already got confused because they left a room, but then it was still in their list in other clients (because Gajim leaves the bookmark and just parts you from the room)

  30. SamWhited

    edhelas: I dunno, just pause updates while MAM syncs in the background and then do the update atomically. I don't know how Dino or Gajim in particular handle their chat history, but it can't be that hard to just pause re-ording and showing previews or whatever until MAM is doing syncing

  31. SamWhited

    Then again, any time anyone says "it can't be that hard" it will have been designed in such a way that it is :)

  32. Daniel

    MAM: surprisingly hard

  33. Kev

    MAM: Surprisingly easy, or near impossible, depending which way you try to bend it ;)

  34. Kev

    (It's fairly easy if you're not trying to fill a local archive, but rely entirely on MAM. It's very difficult if you want to render from a local archive and use MAM to fill holes)

  35. SamWhited

    I kind of think as a general UI principle "things that are clickable should never, ever, move unless the user drags them" is a good one actually. Just joined with Dino and it didn't lock up fetching history, so maybe that's solved, but it still moved this room away from my mouse twice and I clicked on the wrong thing

  36. mdosch

    > Actually, I wonder how UWPX handles bookmarks? Gajim they already got confused because they left a room, but then it was still in their list in other clients (because Gajim leaves the bookmark and just parts you from the room) I would be furious if leaving a room deleted my bookmark. Don't delete my bookmarks until I tell you to!

  37. SamWhited

    I guess it doesn't have to delete it entirely, but in one client it shows bookmarks in the list and in another it hides them unless you're actually joined to the room, so it's more that which confused them.

  38. Link Mauve

    SamWhited, Gajim 1.3 sets autojoin to false when you leave the room.

  39. SamWhited

    yah, that seems to be working, so I guess it was more the inconsistency they were confused about. It didn't join, but it still showed up in the list in another client (presumably because that client just always shows all bookmarks in its sidebar or whatever)

  40. SamWhited

    I was just looking through modernxmpp to see if it had any guidance for what to show in the buddy list view, but no such luck. Might try to write something about that.

  41. Kev

    I think sensible behaviour is that when you join a room you autoBM and auto-autojoin it.

  42. Kev

    And when you leave the room you either delete the BM or remove autojoin.

  43. lovetox

    I think it was a mistake that many clients including Gajim exposed bookmarks to the users

  44. lovetox

    obviously every messenger out there has a concept like bookmarks in xmpp

  45. lovetox

    but no messenger exposes that to users

  46. lovetox

    At least in Gajim we got almost rid of it

  47. SamWhited

    Conversations *sort* of does. It differentiates between the open chats menu which is only rooms you've joined and then when you hit "join a room" or whatever the list of rooms to join is your bookmarks

  48. SamWhited

    But I guess if everything doesn't do something like that the confusion would still exist. Eg. I just noticed that McAbber does this, I have a bunch of rooms I'm not joined to listed on the left.

  49. lovetox

    Bookmarks can only serv as a synced list of joined rooms in my opinion

  50. Kev

    lovetox: I don't think I agree that our mistake was bookmarks being exposed, I think it was MUCs being non-persistent so bookmarks have to be used as a bandaid, rather than as bookmarks.

  51. lovetox

    it does not matter whats in bookmarks, if you joined once a MUC, i have a local archive of that chat

  52. lovetox

    so i have to show that conversation forever to the user

  53. lovetox

    until he actively says "Delete all conversations from this MUC"

  54. lovetox

    SamWhited, > "things that are clickable should never, ever, move unless the user drags them"

  55. lovetox

    i find that interesting, so you would want a button that says "sort on activity"

  56. lovetox

    or sort unread

  57. Kev

    And chat logs shouldn't scroll, because you could click the nicknames in them? :)

  58. SamWhited

    I could see "unread at the top" (but still lexical within read/unread) being less painful than rooms constantly reshuffling if two or three of them are active

  59. SamWhited

    scrolling == dragging. "user provides the input that moves them"

  60. lovetox

    no i agree that is unnessary

  61. lovetox

    if i would do something like that

  62. lovetox

    i would have a "active" sub category in the list

  63. lovetox

    and once a chat has unread stuff, the chat moves there

  64. lovetox

    but in there evrething is sorted alphabetical

  65. Zash

    As I said in the modernxmpp room, look at what browsers do with tabs when you close them.

  66. Kev

    That's basically what the Swift preview I'm working with at the moment does. Has as UNREAD section in the pseudo-roster.

  67. SamWhited

    I still think that would be annoying personally, just less annoying. But I dunno, as long as the user can say "sort by X" instead of it just moving around semi-randomly by default

  68. Kev

    So UNREAD, ROOMS and PEOPLE are each internally sorted.

  69. Kev

    And it's working pretty well for me at the moment.

  70. emus

    Hello, I would like to kindly call for reviewers of the Newsletter draft: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/851/files 🧐️

  71. deuill

    Uh, I hope comments from randoms are appreciated. Are things like spelling/general pedantry worth calling out?

  72. deuill

    Great to see so much content BTW

  73. moparisthebest

    deuill: sure feel free! The more help the better

  74. deuill

    Added a few, awesome work!