XSF Discussion - 2021-02-05

  1. intosi has left

  2. deuill has left

  3. deuill has joined

  4. intosi has joined

  5. debacle has left

  6. alameyo has left

  7. emus has left

  8. Seve has left

  9. intosi has left

  10. Andrzej has joined

  11. marek has left

  12. marek has joined

  13. Vaulor has left

  14. wladmis has joined

  15. Andrzej has left

  16. intosi has joined

  17. Zash has left

  18. Zash has joined

  19. Andrzej has joined

  20. lskdjf has left

  21. intosi has left

  22. alex-a-soto has left

  23. krauq has left

  24. Adi has left

  25. Andrzej has left

  26. govanify has left

  27. govanify has joined

  28. intosi has joined

  29. david has left

  30. david has joined

  31. arc has left

  32. arc has joined

  33. arc has left

  34. arc has joined

  35. arc has left

  36. arc has joined

  37. govanify has left

  38. Andrzej has joined

  39. govanify has joined

  40. intosi has left

  41. wurstsalat has left

  42. Andrzej has left

  43. intosi has joined

  44. intosi has left

  45. larma has left

  46. larma has joined

  47. stpeter has joined

  48. stpeter has left

  49. lskdjf has joined

  50. intosi has joined

  51. wladmis has left

  52. govanify has left

  53. govanify has joined

  54. intosi has left

  55. lskdjf has left

  56. stp has left

  57. govanify has left

  58. govanify has joined

  59. intosi has joined

  60. govanify has left

  61. govanify has joined

  62. intosi has left

  63. alameyo has joined

  64. Yagiza has joined

  65. neshtaxmpp has joined

  66. Andrzej has joined

  67. mukt2 has left

  68. intosi has joined

  69. murabito has left

  70. Andrzej has left

  71. murabito has joined

  72. intosi has left

  73. LNJ has left

  74. intosi has joined

  75. neshtaxmpp has left

  76. govanify has left

  77. govanify has joined

  78. govanify has left

  79. govanify has joined

  80. xsf has left

  81. Kev has left

  82. Kev has joined

  83. xsf has joined

  84. Mikaela has joined

  85. intosi has left

  86. govanify has left

  87. govanify has joined

  88. antranigv has joined

  89. antranigv has left

  90. antranigv has joined

  91. Vaulor has joined

  92. Andrzej has joined

  93. intosi has joined

  94. Andrzej has left

  95. neshtaxmpp has joined

  96. Andrzej has joined

  97. andy has joined

  98. intosi has left

  99. intosi has joined

  100. Seve has joined

  101. Mikaela has left

  102. Mikaela has joined

  103. Tobias has joined

  104. intosi has left

  105. Andrzej has left

  106. jcbrand has joined

  107. intosi has joined

  108. govanify has left

  109. govanify has joined

  110. wurstsalat has joined

  111. neshtaxmpp has left

  112. Mikaela has left

  113. intosi has left

  114. chronosx88 has left

  115. chronosx88 has joined

  116. arc has left

  117. arc has joined

  118. intosi has joined

  119. arc has left

  120. arc has joined

  121. emus has joined

  122. alacer has left

  123. alacer has joined

  124. intosi has left

  125. intosi has joined

  126. arc has left

  127. arc has joined

  128. arc has left

  129. arc has joined

  130. krauq has joined

  131. alex-a-soto has joined

  132. Adi has joined

  133. intosi has left

  134. fuana has joined

  135. goffi has joined

  136. fuana has left

  137. Mikaela has joined

  138. pasdesushi has joined

  139. marc has left

  140. marc has joined

  141. intosi has joined

  142. fuana has joined

  143. pasdesushi has left

  144. Andrzej has joined

  145. neshtaxmpp has joined

  146. pasdesushi has joined

  147. pasdesushi has left

  148. fuana has left

  149. ti_gj06 has joined

  150. Andrzej has left

  151. govanify has left

  152. govanify has joined

  153. Mikaela has left

  154. lorddavidiii has joined

  155. govanify has left

  156. govanify has joined

  157. purplebeetroot has joined

  158. Alex has left

  159. chronosx88 has left

  160. chronosx88 has joined

  161. Alex has joined

  162. floretta has left

  163. Mikaela has joined

  164. mathijs has left

  165. mathijs has joined

  166. Andrzej has joined

  167. mathijs has left

  168. pasdesushi has joined

  169. pasdesushi has left

  170. chronosx88 has left

  171. chronosx88 has joined

  172. mathijs has joined

  173. govanify has left

  174. govanify has joined

  175. Mikaela has left

  176. neshtaxmpp has left

  177. floretta has joined

  178. Tim has joined

  179. Tim has left

  180. Tim has joined

  181. Tim has left

  182. Tim has joined

  183. wladmis has joined

  184. deuill has left

  185. Dele Olajide has joined

  186. deuill has joined

  187. ti_gj06 has left

  188. floretta has left

  189. ti_gj06 has joined

  190. debacle has joined

  191. Tim has left

  192. Tim has joined

  193. pasdesushi has joined

  194. pasdesushi has left

  195. pasdesushi has joined

  196. marek has left

  197. pasdesushi has left

  198. pasdesushi has joined

  199. marek has joined

  200. nyco has left

  201. pasdesushi has left

  202. neshtaxmpp has joined

  203. purplebeetroot has left

  204. nyco has joined

  205. pasdesushi has joined

  206. pasdesushi has left

  207. pasdesushi has joined

  208. pasdesushi has left

  209. pasdesushi has joined

  210. pasdesushi has left

  211. pasdesushi has joined

  212. pasdesushi has left

  213. pasdesushi has joined

  214. Steve Kille has left

  215. Steve Kille has joined

  216. pasdesushi has left

  217. pasdesushi has joined

  218. papatutuwawa has joined

  219. pasdesushi has left

  220. LNJ has joined

  221. pasdesushi has joined

  222. papatutuwawa has left

  223. papatutuwawa has joined

  224. papatutuwawa has left

  225. papatutuwawa has joined

  226. papatutuwawa has left

  227. papatutuwawa has joined

  228. papatutuwawa has left

  229. pasdesushi has left

  230. pasdesushi has joined

  231. papatutuwawa has joined

  232. papatutuwawa has left

  233. papatutuwawa has joined

  234. pasdesushi has left

  235. Wojtek has joined

  236. pasdesushi has joined

  237. nyco has left

  238. Mikaela has joined

  239. ti_gj06 has left

  240. floretta has joined

  241. intosi has left

  242. neshtaxmpp has left

  243. ti_gj06 has joined

  244. andrey.g has joined

  245. intosi has joined

  246. Mikaela has left

  247. sonny has left

  248. sonny has joined

  249. chronosx88 has left

  250. chronosx88 has joined

  251. sonny has left

  252. sonny has joined

  253. intosi has left

  254. Tim has left

  255. Tim has joined

  256. stp has joined

  257. Tim has left

  258. antranigv has left

  259. floretta has left

  260. nyco has joined

  261. Tim has joined

  262. sonny has left

  263. sonny has joined

  264. intosi has joined

  265. pasdesushi has left

  266. pasdesushi has joined

  267. papatutuwawa has left

  268. deuill has left

  269. stp has left

  270. pasdesushi has left

  271. adiaholic has left

  272. adiaholic has joined

  273. deuill has joined

  274. pasdesushi has joined

  275. floretta has joined

  276. pasdesushi has left

  277. Steve Kille has left

  278. Steve Kille has joined

  279. mukt2 has joined

  280. mathieui

    Am I the only one who thinks that the stickers XEP could use BOB?

  281. mukt2 has left

  282. Alex has left

  283. lskdjf has joined

  284. Andrzej has left

  285. Andrzej has joined

  286. Alex has joined

  287. fuana has joined

  288. ti_gj06 has left

  289. fuana has left

  290. lskdjf has left

  291. pasdesushi has joined

  292. mathijs has left

  293. mathijs has joined

  294. sonny has left

  295. sonny has joined

  296. pasdesushi has left

  297. franck has left

  298. franck has joined

  299. Zash

    mathieui: Plausibly.

  300. Zash


  301. fuana has joined

  302. mathieui

    Ah right, BOB requires XHTML-IM, and we cannot have nice things anymore

  303. Zash

    Does it?

  304. Andrzej has left

  305. Zash

    Couldn't you plausibly send a cid:-URI in OOB or anything?

  306. mathieui

    That is technically allowed as far as I am aware

  307. Zash

    Obviously we can't have nice things tho.

  308. lorddavidiii has left

  309. mathieui

    although that makes yet another thing which is not end-to-end encrypted leading to a data leak, and we cannot have nice things

  310. fuana has left

  311. franck has left

  312. franck has joined

  313. fuana has joined

  314. Link Mauve

    We’d have to migrate to OMEMO++ first.

  315. fuana has left

  316. jonas’

    Link Mauve, do we?

  317. Link Mauve

    I think so?

  318. jonas’

    FSE (full stanza encryption) is possible with OMEMO v0.3 IIRC

  319. jonas’

    FSE (full stanza encryption) is possible with OMEMO v0.7 IIRC

  320. Link Mauve

    Current deployed OMEMO doesn’t support it, as that’s 0.3 or something.

  321. jonas’

    Link Mauve, but then we just need OMEMO vdeployed++, not OMEMO++

  322. jonas’

    (which I read as "a replacement for OMEMO")

  323. mathieui

    Link Mauve, that still does not cover the <iq/> file retrieval

  324. Link Mauve

    mathieui, oh?

  325. jonas’

    mathieui, XMPP over IBB over <message/>!

  326. Link Mauve

    jonas’, my bad, that’s what I meant.

  327. mathieui

    Link Mauve, or does it?

  328. Link Mauve

    mathieui, <iq><omemo-encrypted><iq/></omemo-encrypted></iq>

  329. mathieui

    oh yeah, in an hypothetical future that may work

  330. jonas’


  331. jonas’ scratches head

  332. mathieui

    also that is still some kind of leak

  333. jonas’

    I’m sure that will work just fine.

  334. mathieui looks at XTLS

  335. Andrzej has joined

  336. Zash

    mixmaster over XMPP?

  337. Zash

    or ... what was that email thing called?

  338. sonny has left

  339. sonny has joined

  340. fuana has joined

  341. eta has left

  342. eta has joined

  343. vanitasvitae

    > mathieui, <iq><omemo-encrypted><iq/></omemo-encrypted></iq> I tried to come up with a solution for encrypted <iq>s in sce

  344. vanitasvitae


  345. jonas’

    ha, it even uses BOB as example

  346. vanitasvitae


  347. vanitasvitae

    So if someone does some experiments with it, please share feedback

  348. eta has left

  349. eta has joined

  350. fuana has left

  351. eta has left

  352. eta has joined

  353. Half-Shot has left

  354. uhoreg has left

  355. Matthew has left

  356. Rixon 👁🗨 has left

  357. Rixon 👁🗨 has joined

  358. uhoreg has joined

  359. Half-Shot has joined

  360. Matthew has joined

  361. alameyo has left

  362. ti_gj06 has joined

  363. andrey.g has left

  364. Guus has left

  365. Andrzej has left

  366. Guus has joined

  367. alameyo has joined

  368. eta has left

  369. eta has joined

  370. fuana has joined

  371. mukt2 has joined

  372. eta has left

  373. eta has joined

  374. lorddavidiii has joined

  375. eta has left

  376. eta has joined

  377. floretta has left

  378. fuana has left

  379. Tim has left

  380. stpeter has joined

  381. stpeter has left

  382. mukt2 has left

  383. mathijs has left

  384. mathijs has joined

  385. floretta has joined

  386. pasdesushi has joined

  387. fuana has joined

  388. pasdesushi has left

  389. papatutuwawa has joined

  390. fuana has left

  391. franck has left

  392. franck has joined

  393. fuana has joined

  394. mukt2 has joined

  395. fuana has left

  396. emus has left

  397. mathijs has left

  398. pasdesushi has joined

  399. LNJ has left

  400. emus has joined

  401. intosi has left

  402. mukt2 has left

  403. Mikaela has joined

  404. intosi has joined

  405. pasdesushi has left

  406. lorddavidiii has left

  407. pasdesushi has joined

  408. pasdesushi has left

  409. pasdesushi has joined

  410. arc

    Good morning everyone

  411. vanitasvitae

    hi arc

  412. arc

    Board meeting in 15 minutes. Do we have everyone this week?

  413. MattJ


  414. pasdesushi has left

  415. pasdesushi has joined

  416. chronosx88 has left

  417. chronosx88 has joined

  418. LNJ has joined

  419. arc

    There's also the foss foundations virtual drink up after the board meeting. Which would normally be held at this time in Brussels

  420. pasdesushi has left

  421. fuana has joined

  422. pasdesushi has joined

  423. fuana has left

  424. fuana has joined

  425. pasdesushi has left

  426. pasdesushi has joined

  427. papatutuwawa has left

  428. ralphm bangs gavel

  429. ralphm

    0. Welcome

  430. ralphm


  431. ralphm

    Who do we have today?

  432. arc


  433. MattJ


  434. ralphm

    dwd, Seve?

  435. fuana has left

  436. Seve


  437. arc

    That is technically quorum? Not ideal though

  438. pasdesushi has left

  439. ralphm

    I see 4 out of 5

  440. arc

    I typed that when we only had three 😋

  441. ralphm


  442. ralphm

    I didn't see minutes, but I think we said we'd start with GSoC. Any other topics?

  443. mathijs has joined

  444. arc

    Are we as a board tackling the summit? That probably would have otherwise taken place this last week?

  445. ralphm

    Actually right now.

  446. ralphm

    FOSDEM is tomorrow

  447. arc

    It does not seem that SCAM is active right now

  448. mathijs has left

  449. mathijs has joined

  450. mathijs has left

  451. mathijs has joined

  452. krauq has left

  453. Zash

    Accurate. Last I looked, SCAM had no activity for months.

  454. ralphm

    I think the last meeting was in October

  455. arc

    I'm not criticizing, it happens to all of us. I'm just saying that we as a board should not be deferring to an inactive committee.

  456. ralphm

    And I think that's understandable, with lockdowns and stuff.

  457. ralphm

    We haven't actively asked SCAM to look into a virtual Summit

  458. arc

    In any case, we should perhaps put that on the intended today. since we are virtual this year we can always tackle it next week or two weeks from now

  459. ralphm


  460. Daniel

    I'm personally not the biggest fan of online invents. The few events I attended last year haven't been very fun. I might attend a summit but I'm personally not super keen on organizing something I wouldn't really enjoy myself.

  461. lskdjf has joined

  462. Daniel

    Saying this as a scam member

  463. Daniel

    Not sure about my fellow team members

  464. Daniel

    So feel free to send an official inquiry

  465. ralphm

    This is the last meeting, where they explicitly stated that 2021 is not an in-person event and there was scepticism on having a virtual one. That said, I like the ideas presented last week and we should go ahead with them.

  466. Zash

    Observation: pep. left the XSF some time after that.

  467. MattJ

    Daniel, I don't think you're alone, and I agree that online is far from ideal compared to in-person meetups

  468. ralphm


  469. MattJ

    I get the impression that FOSDEM have struggled to find speakers, I believe interest has been lower

  470. arc

    But we can't shut down as an organization just because we can't do in person events

  471. MattJ

    But I also don't believe we can legitimately take a year off

  472. Andrzej has joined

  473. MattJ

    I agree

  474. MattJ

    Less than ideal is better than nothing

  475. Zash

    Suggestion (hat:xsf member): Postmortem for this would be good.

  476. ralphm

    Last week it was pointed out that not having any type of gathering would leave us without concentrated discussions on protocol, as we usually have at the Summit.

  477. Kev

    I think, FWIW, FOSDEM’s appeal as a virtual event would be lower than the Summit’s. But I could be very wrong about how effectively we can have a 30/40 person remote Summit.

  478. Mikaela has left

  479. wladmis has left

  480. wladmis has joined

  481. Zash

    Kev, we could see it as a stress-test of online meeting things, then split into focus groups to argue about XEPs.

  482. arc

    I think an online event would be better if we spread it out. Instead of everyone getting together for one day, split the topics up and have several focused meetings

  483. MattJ

    arc, agreed

  484. arc

    My experience with online events is there better when they're shorter

  485. Kev

    I don’t agree with that, FWIW. It’s much easier for me to block out one day that’s going to be an event to attend than work an hour here and there into my work week.

  486. MattJ

    Shorter and more focused. I'm sure not going to hang around all day in a 40-person online video conference

  487. Daniel

    Time zones will probably also put a limit on it

  488. Kev

    But not disagreeing to the point that I’m going to argue it shouldn’t happen.

  489. Daniel

    Probably something in the European pm

  490. ralphm

    Daniel, with your scam hat on, do you think your team would pick up planning / organising something like this?

  491. govanify has left

  492. govanify has joined

  493. Daniel

    If the team is just me then the honest answer to that is no

  494. Mikaela has joined

  495. ralphm

    Well, officially SCAM is also Guus and nyco.

  496. Dele Olajide has left

  497. Daniel

    What's the amount of organzing you want to put into this

  498. Daniel

    Like should we just pick a week day and have four weeks after each other with 2-3 hours each?

  499. MattJ

    I think the logistics of organizing an online event (or multiple) are far lower than an in-person event

  500. MattJ

    i.e. I don't really care if SCAM isn't going to do anything. Multiple community members do want to do something, and I hope we can self-organize.

  501. ralphm

    Sure. Starting with a wiki page for collecting ideas seems prudent.

  502. MattJ

    I would try help out with that, but the next few weeks will be difficult for me

  503. arc

    Let's continue discussion after the meeting

  504. arc

    We do have the agenda item of gsoc

  505. ralphm


  506. ralphm

    1. GSoC

  507. mathijs has left

  508. mathijs has joined

  509. ralphm


  510. Wojtek has left

  511. ralphm

    So, last time I remember, arc explained that payments by Google are lower and suggested the XSF compensates.

  512. mathijs has left

  513. arc

    I would actually suggest that we compensate by shifting to outreachy this year

  514. Kev

    Lower, but the time is lower too isn’t it? Aren’t students expected to do half the work for half the pay?

  515. arc

    Yep. But they also shut down several other programs, we may be looking at the last year, or years, of gsoc

  516. lskdjf

    It's not just that the payments are lower, the projects are also supposed to be _shorter_. So the payment per time stays the same. Google apparently wants to try and open gsoc to more people, and they think that shorter projects are beneficial for that goal.

  517. ralphm

    For those here (including floor) who've mentored, are shorter projects expected to be effective (enough)?

  518. Kev

    I don’t want to shit on Google for making the change, they can do what they like with the programme. But a lot of the overhead for mentors and orgs is frontloaded.

  519. ralphm

    Oh, don't take me wrong. I am just curious if the change would work *for us*.

  520. Kev

    So the amount of code produced is much lower relative to mentor/admin effort, and the change (I predict with no data) of integrating people into the community is lower (but there is a counter argument that it might be higher because it’s less mercenary).

  521. fuana has joined

  522. mathijs has joined

  523. fuana has left

  524. fuana has joined

  525. arc

    I think it is still worth doing.

  526. SamWhited

    FWIW I had been thinking about trying to get my project into GSoC this year under the XSF organization. I haven't done it before, but smaller projects would actually fit in with the handful of ideas I had much better than the old larger ones.

  527. arc

    I'm just suggesting we start to shift to outreachy. Because GSoC has always been a valuable program, and should it come to an end with this year, it would be ready to fully shift over

  528. mathijs has left

  529. Zash

    There's a GSoC for documentation, right? Anyone have any experience with that? May be closer to the core XSF thing of writing specifications, and FOSS projects are often struggling with keeping their docs up to date.

  530. ralphm

    There is, but it is later

  531. govanify has left

  532. govanify has joined

  533. arc

    GSoC is about writing code, not "documentation"

  534. Zash

    I'm referring to Season of Docs

  535. mathijs has joined

  536. arc


  537. ralphm

    I think, if they do it again, it will be announced in March

  538. Zash

    Indeed, so ignore me until then 🙂

  539. larma

    I don't see an issue with smaller projects. Surely needs some adjustments to how we do things, but probably still worth it. At least for the projects that are not backed by companies

  540. mathijs has left

  541. ralphm

    I understand (from last meeting) that arc would be happy to admin (if no one else is interested) and that Kev would be around to help if he has spare cycles. Arc also suggested shifting to outreachy but I haven't seem any response on that here.

  542. ralphm


  543. Andrzej has left

  544. arc

    I have some response from there.

  545. SamWhited

    ¿Por qué no los dos?

  546. arc

    For both programs we mostly need an idea's list

  547. neshtaxmpp has joined

  548. ralphm

    SamWhited, I am not sure what the overhead is of running both

  549. ralphm

    Organisationally, paying out is different. For Outreachy, we'd have to do this ourselves.

  550. ralphm

    arc: can you start collecting ideas, while we figure this out?

  551. arc

    Yep, happy to.

  552. ralphm

    (i.e. do the wiki thing)

  553. ralphm


  554. larma

    ralphm: I don't think we do the payouts with outreachy, we just provide the money.

  555. arc

    That is true.

  556. ralphm

    which is differnt from GSoC, I haven't looked at the specifics

  557. arc

    We supply the funding, but the people in charge of outreachy do the payouts.

  558. LNJ has left

  559. LNJ has joined

  560. ralphm

    Good to know.

  561. larma

    (And they charge a huge cut for the processing)

  562. ralphm

    Next week, let's discuss if we want to do GSoC, Outreachy, or both and how. For now let's gather the ideas.

  563. ralphm

    I think that's all the time we have today.

  564. ralphm

    2. Date of Next

  565. ralphm


  566. ralphm

    3. Close

  567. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  568. ralphm bangs gavel

  569. Seve

    Thank you guys!

  570. larma

    I think we should get this to the mailing list, because I'm missing inputs from flow, vanitasvitae and other previous gsoc mentors/admins

  571. lskdjf

    Since GSoC doesn't require the XSF to contribute money, I don't understand why the XSF doesn't just go with it as long as GSoC exists and there are project maintainers that want to make use of it.

  572. mathijs has joined

  573. SamWhited

    Reading through the outreachy community guidelines and I really like how they structure this. Seems like it would be a lot more work for the XSF since we'd have to be the fiscal sponsor and we'd probably be able to sponsor fewer interns who would have to pick the project they want to work on from among all the people vying to be their mentor, but it seems like it would be a good fit

  574. Kev

    FWIW, I’m a little uneasy about the XSF using its limited funds to pay for development of some projects over others. If the money came from the projects themselves that concern goes away.

  575. neshtaxmpp has left

  576. SamWhited

    The XSF probably wouldn't pick the projects, projects would just apply and the interns would pick them I think. The XSF is just paying interns.

  577. Kev

    Well, surely the XSF chooses which internships get selected, like GSoC.

  578. moparisthebest

    could just require all code written by XSF-funded interns to be AGPLv3 , then there is no conflict of interest problems if a company wants free labor :D

  579. SamWhited

    I think it would just pick the students though, give them a list of projects that applied for an intern, and the students would pick the project, but maybe not.

  580. MattJ

    Kev, you've raised that issue in the past, and I have to say I think I increasingly dislike it as time goes on

  581. franck has left

  582. SamWhited

    And the XSF could just not vet the projects beyond "it meets the criteria defined by the program" (which is basically "OSI approved license"

  583. mathijs has left

  584. neshtaxmpp has joined

  585. MattJ

    I mean, dislike having that as a rule the XSF should follow

  586. larma

    The issue seems to be that Outreachy targets open-source communities but the XSF isn't an open-source community but an open-standards organization.

  587. SamWhited

    The XSF would just be the fiscal sponsor acting as an umbrella like we do for GSoC, in my mind.

  588. MattJ

    If the code funded by the XSF is open-source then I have no problem with the XSF funding projects

  589. MattJ

    I *would* have issue with it funding closed-source projects

  590. Mikaela has left

  591. SamWhited

    If the XSF doesn't want to directly fund projects, they could also create a pool that projects and individuals can donate too and just be the fiscal sponsor without using any of their own money

  592. moparisthebest

    how do you define "is open-source" ? like I think SamWhited 's "OSI approved license" is correct, but that has to be the license it's submitted under too, ie, no CLA's ?

  593. MattJ

    The XSF... or another organization (back into that loop :) )

  594. SamWhited

    (since we're a US 501(c)3 but projects likely aren't and don't have a legal entity they can use)

  595. SamWhited

    moparisthebest: they have a definition on their website, I don't think we need to care beyond whatever they say

  596. Andrzej has joined

  597. Zash whispers "Snikket CIC"

  598. larma

    MattJ: I share that opinion, but IIRC the XSF is believed to be neutral regarding open source vs closed source and this would be non-neutral...

  599. eta has left

  600. eta has joined

  601. Kev

    MattJ: There is pragmatism in my reason, FWIW, not just dogma. Getting sponsors happy to give money to random projects rather than directly helping XMPP Standards Development seems questionable. Maybe I’m wrong. Although I do know that some sponsorship hasn’t happened in the past because one of Board was mouthing off about the XSF not supporting anyone who wanted to make money off XMPP.

  602. SamWhited

    *nods* any org would do

  603. MattJ

    Zash, Snikket may be too opinionated for this particular case (despite having sponsored a bunch of open-source development in the past 12 months)

  604. mathijs has joined

  605. franck has joined

  606. neshtaxmpp has left

  607. mathijs has left

  608. moparisthebest

    doesn't that assume projects don't directly help XMPP Standards Development? that seems wrong

  609. eta has left

  610. MattJ

    Zash, OTOH maybe not, if it's a separate "fund the ecosystem" thing

  611. eta has joined

  612. MattJ

    moparisthebest, I agree, I think that's my thinking. Throwing money into standards development (??) is not what XMPP needs right now

  613. govanify has left

  614. govanify has joined

  615. Kev

    (FWIW, while I don’t know how effective it is, I am glad Snikket is doing what Snikket is doing)

  616. SamWhited

    I would actually be open to filing paperwork to start a thing that just accepts donations on behalf of XMPP projects, acts as a fiscal sponsor on OpenCollective or somewhere, does things like this, etc. if anyone is interested

  617. moparisthebest

    I'd argue helping fund development on these projects *is* throwing it directly into standards development

  618. Kev

    If the XSF wants to do Outreachy, why not try to get sponsors specifically for money to spend on Outreachy? That would render my concerns completely irrelevant.

  619. moparisthebest

    "standards development" isn't anything anyone here has ever done, am I wrong on that?

  620. SamWhited

    That sounds reasonable too, I do think the XSF is already positioned to be a fiscal sponsor for projects, it doesn't have to necessarily put its own money towards it

  621. moparisthebest

    instead, you have a need in a project/product/whatever, and standards come out of that

  622. eta has left

  623. eta has joined

  624. Kev

    All standards work is mean to be writing standards for things that are needed, I’m not sure what that point is.

  625. Kev

    Certainly people here have written standards, and certainly before implementations (and even without needing to implement it themselves).

  626. SamWhited

    board people: is this something that could go on the board meeting next week to discuss? Ie. can the XSF act as a fiscal sponsor for projects (where it just keeps track of money for them)? If so, I'd volunteer to help with that. If not, I'd volunteer to start an organization specifically for that.

  627. moparisthebest

    that process doesn't start out by writing standards though, it starts out by having a problem and thinking about how to solve it with code, in a project

  628. neshtaxmpp has joined

  629. mathijs has joined

  630. Kev

    That is demonstrably wrong. We have written Standards to solve problems, before thinking about the code to go with them.

  631. moparisthebest

    so, funding code for project == funding standard development, in my opinion

  632. SamWhited

    moparisthebest: I think the best specs do that, but lots of them do it with no code written

  633. moparisthebest

    hehe, yea that's how you get standards no one implements

  634. moparisthebest

    MIX for example

  635. Kev

    Some of the worst specs come out of writing code before thinking about standardising too :)

  636. moparisthebest

    that's also fair

  637. moparisthebest

    so let's say "funding code for a project where standards are thought about from day 1" == "funding standard development"

  638. Zash

    moparisthebest, https://xkcd.com/844/

  639. SamWhited

    I think the worst specs come from *deploying* code before thinking about standardizing, not necessarily writing it :) writing it, then standardizing is sort of like writing unit tests before the code; you end up going back and forth and making changes, but it's good to have at least some basic unit tests to flush out the general shape of it first

  640. Zash

    also Kev

  641. Zash

    The worst code comes from writing code!

  642. SamWhited

    sorry, before it gets lost, /cc ralphm, arc, other board people see question above

  643. Mikaela has joined

  644. eta has left

  645. eta has joined

  646. fuana has left

  647. Kev

    So, to avoid any misunderstanding, I’m concretely in favour of the XSF gathering sponsorship to pay for some Outreachy interns, and doing Outreachy with it.

  648. mathijs has left

  649. fuana has joined

  650. Kev

    Although if we have reason to suspect this will be the last year of GSoC, there is a strong argument for trying to get money out of Google while we can :)

  651. arc

    I am reading, SamWhited. And remember I've been talking about seeking outside funding for a while.

  652. stp has joined

  653. moparisthebest

    assuming board decides it wants to do this at all, sounds like they need to decide 1. if it can be funded "normally" or 2. if it needs special funding

  654. SamWhited

    arc: my question isn't necessarily about outside funding (although the XSF could help raise that too for things like Outreachy) but about if I as a project want to take donations in many places I need a legal entity. Some NGOs act as fiscal sponsors and take donations that they keep separated out for other projects, and if the XSF was willing to act that way for open source projects that would probably be a big help to the ecosystem

  655. arc

    As a general rule, organizations that do things, are able to get funding to continue doing those things. We should not devolve into arguing about the distribution of those funds.

  656. SamWhited

    To be clear, the XSF wouldn't be distributing funds itself or deciding how they get distributed.

  657. arc

    I would be in favor of that. Especially since most XMPP projects are fairly small with only a few developers, and it is a big overhead for them to serve as their own fiscal sponsors

  658. SamWhited

    For example, let's say my project (Mellium) wants to take donations. Right now those go to me, I am personally liable, they are not tax deductible, and most organizations that process donations won't touch me with a 10 foot pole.

  659. SamWhited

    If the XSF were my fiscal sponsor though, the donation button on my website would go to the XSF and they'd just put it in the "Mellium" account or whatever. Other projects could do the same.

  660. arc

    I understand. I have served on the boards for a few fiscal sponsors.

  661. arc

    I am in favor of that. It is really not that much work for the small number of organizations we have.

  662. SamWhited

    👍 (I've been specifically looking for one to use for some projects on OpenCollective and vaguely considering trying to start something, but at least for Mellium the XSF would be a logical place if it's something we have enough peopel to work on)

  663. SamWhited

    And I would volunteer since it's easier than starting a separate entity for me.

  664. arc

    Actually this might be an ideal time for this conversation. The FOSS foundations online drink up just started

  665. fuana has left

  666. SamWhited

    arc: link?

  667. arc

    Which is literally the people that you should be talking to 😋

  668. SamWhited

    I looked for FOSS Foundation when you mentioned it earlier but couldn't find anything?

  669. SamWhited

    I'm curious about this though

  670. arc


  671. SamWhited

    Although it's only 1300 here, but meh, it's time for a beer somewhere

  672. arc

    It is 10:00 a.m. here

  673. SamWhited

    arc: are you still in Portland?

  674. arc


  675. SamWhited

    Cool, a friend of mine is trying to move there right now (from Seattle)

  676. mdosch

    Too much rain, 'eh?

  677. mdosch

    Oh no, 'eh is vancouver. 😂

  678. arc

    I would recommend South Portland. Close to downtown, not terribly expensive, but quiet and not so much crime

  679. eta has left

  680. eta has joined

  681. Yagiza has left

  682. eta has left

  683. eta has joined

  684. arc

    It's not one of the rich people's neighborhoods. But if you wanted to go boating, eg, I live about two blocks from a boat launch.

  685. Tim has joined

  686. adiaholic has left

  687. Tim has left

  688. Tim has joined

  689. Andrzej has left

  690. fuana has joined

  691. adiaholic has joined

  692. Andrzej has joined

  693. intosi has left

  694. fuana has left

  695. fuana has joined

  696. papatutuwawa has joined

  697. arc

    This is a great example for the need for better foss a/v meeting software. Of course, xmpp based! BigBlueButton has problems

  698. antranigv has joined

  699. Tim has left

  700. Tim has joined

  701. Zash

    Well you've got Zoom and Jitsi.

  702. arc

    Zoom isn't foss?!

  703. Zash

    Nope. Touch of XMPP in there at least.

  704. fuana has left

  705. lskdjf has left

  706. Tim has left

  707. adiaholic has left

  708. arc

    I didn't know that. Not the first time I've been shocked. But I'm not talking about another multichat clone

  709. arc

    See the problem is that all the multi-chat software treats the room as if it were a stadium with a microphone. People step up on stage, speak into the microphone, sit down. Its slow and frustrating

  710. adiaholic has joined

  711. arc

    Especially with these larger meetups.

  712. intosi has joined

  713. SamWhited

    I don't think I've ever seen a good system for managing that in real life either that we could take as a metaphore for software

  714. arc

    And if someone were to work that out, AGPLv3 licensed, using xmpp, we win.

  715. arc

    Because it was instantly become they go to for every social group in the world

  716. mathieui

    arc, that is not true, jitsi meet does not do that

  717. Zash

    Wishing for something where you could, say, break off into smaller groups and talk more easily? Or whisper to whoever sits "next to you"?

  718. mathieui

    Also, zoom actually has "breakout rooms" which let you do just that (and it is nice in quite a lot of scenarios)

  719. SamWhited

    I'd push back on the AGPLv3 thing, but the "using xmpp" part sounds good :)

  720. SamWhited

    I think this has breakout rooms too, but I haven't tried it

  721. arc

    I'm thinking less formal. More like, groups in a room. Having two levels of microphone.

  722. Mikaela has left

  723. ralphm

    SamWhited: added to Trello

  724. Andrzej has left

  725. arc

    Less breakout rooms, more "circles". So you can wander through a room and talk to different circles. But everyone hears the person with the room microphone.

  726. arc

    SamWhited I thought you liked the AGPLv3

  727. Zash

    2D location something and mic/speaker volume scaling?

  728. arc

    I wouldn't use or emulate location. Just letting people join circles.

  729. arc

    People have suggested using certain video games that do location based talking

  730. ralphm

    So ad hoc backchannels

  731. SamWhited

    arc: I am very strongly against AGPL (or basically everything GNU does); maybe that should be my controversial opinion :)

  732. arc


  733. Kev

    Sam: You’re only allowed one.

  734. ralphm

    Also, I don't think it is controversial

  735. arc

    Ralphm yeah like adhoc breakout rooms. Which happen organically

  736. ralphm

    (the opinion, not Sam)

  737. SamWhited

    arc: I can't remember what it's called, but have you used the virtual neighborhoods chat thing? You sort of walk around a map like it's a little 2d video game and when you walk up to people their videos and mics fade in as you get close. It sounds gimmicky, but I've found it works very well

  738. arc

    People suggested that for this meeting. But here we are an hour on, still doing introductions

  739. arc

    I don't think we should be limited to emulating the real world. I'm thinking, do better than real world

  740. Kev

    It’d be good to start by not being worse than the physical world :)

  741. arc

    Lol true

  742. fuana has joined

  743. fuana has left

  744. fuana has joined

  745. arc

    Well it took an hour to mostly get through everyone's introductions 😂

  746. moparisthebest

    arc, me and pep were the very pro AGPLv3 for everything ones :)

  747. arc

    Chris DiBona sitting with Linux Torvalds convinced me that AGPLv3 is really the only way forward for FOSS.

  748. arc

    After that talk, I started relicensing everything. in increasingly lost interest in working on anything that's not.

  749. SamWhited

    I basically want an XMPP client but when you click a room on the left you get a video call on the right (possibly with chat too, but the focus is video calling). Which I guess is also like saying: Mumble with video. Instead of how most video call things work where you have semi-permanent rooms and you're really just in one at a time and can't switch between them rapidly

  750. arc

    Like, I haven't contributed to Gnome because all those contributions were LGPL.

  751. mathijs has joined

  752. Andrzej has joined

  753. adiaholic has left

  754. intosi has left

  755. SamWhited

    I basically feel the same way about (A)GPL as I do about politics; my actual deep-blood-of-the-worker-red comrades just think I'm pinko scum because I prefer the less limiting BSD, MIT, Apache, etc.

  756. arc

    Anything less is exploitive. I know too many housing challenged foss developers, many with some form of autism, working on foss because they love it. Many who's work is freely used my large corporations to make billions, and at best sometimes toss pocket change to those people. At best.

  757. arc

    The only people who are really limited by copyleft are the ones exploiting the community's work for profit. A vast majority of end users don't care what the license is.

  758. chronosx88 has left

  759. SamWhited

    I agree with the desire to make large companies using open source pay their share, but I don't think licensing is the way to do it. It hurts me when there are more restrcitions in a license too even though I'm just also an open source dev who will try to use it correctly. Now I have to worry if I'm complying with every detail, what counts as linking and what doesn't and how that would be interpreted legally, do I have to change my license just because I want to use some sortware that has a ton of restrictions making it incompatible with it, etc.

  760. ti_gj06 has left

  761. arc

    I am paraphrasing here, but Chris DiBona was asked why code.google.com banned the AGPLv3. And his answer was shockingly honest: because AGPLv3 license would bankrupt them.

  762. Zash

    And here I just wanna do my thing and not worry about licensing.

  763. SamWhited

    There's also what Zash just said… I don't want to worry about it. Slapping a BSD like license on it and only using stuff that's slimilarly permissive lets me do that

  764. arc

    SamWhited, that's why I offer commercial licenses. Or more specifically, licensed exceptions

  765. moparisthebest

    arc, add this to the list of reasons: https://opensource.google/docs/using/agpl-policy/ (sounds same as yours but it written form)

  766. SamWhited

    I'd ad that to the list of reasons against :) I have the same fear as an OSS dev doing my best to respect the wishes of other software authors. I want to respect their wishes, but what if I accidentally trigger the viral provision?

  767. arc

    I offer extremely competitively priced exceptions. The only discrimination is against military and military contractors.

  768. nyco has left

  769. SamWhited

    I do like the idea of offering commercial license exceptions

  770. arc

    Yeah then it's not exploitative anymore.

  771. moparisthebest

    > here I just wanna do my thing and not worry about licensing. that's another reason, I can use code licensed almost anything in an AGPLv3 project, so it's also handier for me

  772. moparisthebest

    meh, to be able to offer commercial exceptions you need CLAs which are equally sleazy

  773. SamWhited

    But fewer people can use my project, I don't want them to have to worry either. I just want it out there. Hopefully companies will toss me a couple of bucks on occasion, or I can have some other way to monetize it that doesn't also make OSS devs have to jump through hoops if they want to use it and aren't using something compatible

  774. arc

    Lately I've been increasingly using a cooperative model. People who contribute code get a share of whatever comes from that code.

  775. SamWhited

    arc: I'd be really curious how you handle that? I like the co-op model a lot which is why I tend to split the copyright among all contributors, but I don't really make any money on anything I work on outside of <dayjob> so I'd love to know how it works when there's an actual big community rpoject

  776. SamWhited

    On a tagentially related note: would anyone with a GitHub account help me prove a point about why github stars are a bad metric for anything by starring a repo of mine? (I will not be making any benefit from this, it's just to prove a point that my project with no contributions from anyone except me can have a lot of stars)

  777. SamWhited

    https://github.com/mellium/xmpp if anyone is willing.

  778. moparisthebest

    I also like the "high number of issues == low quality software" metric

  779. moparisthebest

    can't fix stupid I guess ? :'(

  780. SamWhited

    Exactly, basically the same thing.

  781. nyco has joined

  782. SamWhited

    When I was in school I did an internship with a defense contractor that gave raises based on the number of lines of code written in a git blame for the year. As you can imagine, it was the most ridiculously bloated software. All the stupid tricks like putting one argument per line even in small function calls would get called out in code review, but people still did things in stupid round about ways.

  783. neshtaxmpp has left

  784. lskdjf has joined

  785. moparisthebest

    I thought that kind of thing was a joke

  786. Andrzej has left

  787. moparisthebest

    at work we joke that the contractors must be getting paid by the line, even though we know they aren't...

  788. Zash

    Don't they know it's the inverse of that! Also popularity ≠ quality!!11! Aaaargh, how do you become a potato farmer?

  789. eta has left

  790. moparisthebest

    npm install potato-farmer ?

  791. SamWhited

    In this case it's popularity ≠ robust community. I started talking to someone from Open Colletive befor the FOSDEM call ended, so we're emailing to have the converation about why I think stars aren't anywhere close to their metric and my small project shouldn't have to jump through more hoops than a project that's equally small but a trendy tech and more people bookmarked it

  792. Mikaela has joined

  793. moparisthebest

    I thought stars were more like github-bookmarks

  794. SamWhited

    They are.

  795. mimi89999 has left

  796. moparisthebest

    like I have a couple hundred line arduino code snippets that haven't been touched since 2012 that I think might come in handy one day starred

  797. moparisthebest

    and, not things like curl, because I know where they are, and they are easy to find

  798. fuana has left

  799. fuana has joined

  800. chronosx88 has joined

  801. intosi has joined

  802. mdosch

    > I thought stars were more like github-bookmarks I use them like that. 😃

  803. SamWhited

    I think a lot of people do, but a lot also use it to say thanks when someone makes something they use, which is I think where the "it obviously means it's popular" comes from.

  804. chronosx88 has left

  805. moparisthebest

    yea I've never done that once, interesting

  806. moparisthebest

    I must have missed the "github: how to use stars" class

  807. SamWhited

    I mean, I think that's fine, I just don't think that means other people should attribute meaning to "100 stars" or whatever

  808. chronosx88 has joined

  809. Kev

    On a tagentially related note: would anyone with a PayPal account help me prove a point about why being rich is a bad metric for anything by sending me all their money? (I will not be making any benefit from this, it's just to prove a point ...)

  810. mathijs has left

  811. SamWhited

    Oh man, my scam just feels so armetureish now. Kev wins.

  812. mdosch

    Kev, prince of Nigeria…

  813. SamWhited

    (but in all seriousness, I am trying to convince Open Collective to come up with some metric other than GitHub stars)

  814. mdosch

    What would be a good metric?

  815. Kev

    There isn’t one? :)

  816. SamWhited

    Yah, I think it's got ot be something you determine individually, not by something specific to a code hosting service

  817. intosi has left

  818. SamWhited

    Maybe a mix of unique contributors, activity over time (including having multiple people consitsently active), etc.?

  819. Kev

    It also depends what you’re trying to measure. Quality, or ease of access as a contributor?

  820. Kev

    If it’s the former, number of contributors isn’t a particularly good metric. If the latter, it may well be.

  821. SamWhited

    I think they're trying to measure the health of the community

  822. chronosx88 has left

  823. Kev

    Your suggestions sound like a reasonable way to think about that then, yes. I assumed it was something project-related.

  824. chronosx88 has joined

  825. SamWhited

    Sorry, should have explained up front. Open Collective accepts projects into their fiscal host only if they have >100 stars on GitHub. I believe that is a bad metric. I said so as the "controversial opinion" question in a call earlier and someone form Open Collective reached out and asked if I was talking about them and why I thought it was a bad idea

  826. mimi89999 has joined

  827. SamWhited

    So I thought before I sent an email I'd try and get my project with literally no community up to that number and link them to it and a few others I know that are at or close to that.

  828. lionelexecrec has joined

  829. lionelexecrec has left

  830. adiaholic has joined

  831. lionelexecrec has joined

  832. mdosch

    Afair I even got a star on github for a repo that was automatically cloned into my account when I just PRed something minor like a typo. 🙂

  833. chronosx88 has left

  834. intosi has joined

  835. chronosx88 has joined

  836. lionelexecrec has left

  837. lionelexecrec has joined

  838. Mikaela has left

  839. eta has joined

  840. lionelexecrec has left

  841. lionelexecrec has joined

  842. chronosx88 has left

  843. fuana has left

  844. fuana has joined

  845. lionelexecrec has left

  846. lionelexecrec has joined

  847. lskdjf has left

  848. lskdjf has joined

  849. chronosx88 has joined

  850. lionelexecrec has left

  851. lionelexecrec has joined

  852. fuana has left

  853. intosi has left

  854. mathijs has joined

  855. adiaholic has left

  856. Andrzej has joined

  857. chronosx88 has left

  858. chronosx88 has joined

  859. floretta has left

  860. floretta has joined

  861. Mikaela has joined

  862. lionelexecrec has left

  863. lionelexecrec has joined

  864. lionelexecrec has left

  865. lionelexecrec has joined

  866. Daniel has left

  867. lionelexecrec has left

  868. lionelexecrec has joined

  869. lionelexecrec has left

  870. Andrzej has left

  871. lionelexecrec has joined

  872. lionelexecrec has left

  873. lionelexecrec has joined

  874. lionelexecrec has left

  875. lionelexecrec has joined

  876. fuana has joined

  877. lionelexecrec has left

  878. Andrzej has joined

  879. fuana has left

  880. fuana has joined

  881. lionelexecrec has joined

  882. chronosx88 has left

  883. chronosx88 has joined

  884. fuana has left

  885. Daniel has joined

  886. lionelexecrec has left

  887. lionelexecrec has joined

  888. lionelexecrec has left

  889. lionelexecrec has joined

  890. lionelexecrec has left

  891. lionelexecrec has joined

  892. Andrzej has left

  893. alacer has left

  894. lionelexecrec has left

  895. lionelexecrec has joined

  896. alacer has joined

  897. alacer has left

  898. fuana has joined

  899. mimi89999 has left

  900. arc has left

  901. arc has joined

  902. fuana has left

  903. fuana has joined

  904. fuana has left

  905. neshtaxmpp has joined

  906. Andrzej has joined

  907. mimi89999 has joined

  908. Mikaela has left

  909. werdan has joined

  910. Andrzej has left

  911. andy has left

  912. arc has left

  913. adiaholic has joined

  914. antranigv has left

  915. intosi has joined

  916. mimi89999 has left

  917. mimi89999 has joined

  918. chronosx88 has left

  919. papatutuwawa has left

  920. Andrzej has joined

  921. werdan has left

  922. intosi has left

  923. intosi has joined

  924. lskdjf has left

  925. goffi has left

  926. goffi has joined

  927. purplebeetroot has joined

  928. Andrzej has left

  929. lorddavidiii has joined

  930. millesimus has joined

  931. millesimus has left

  932. alameyo has left

  933. stpeter has joined

  934. stpeter has left

  935. goffi has left

  936. Andrzej has joined

  937. Tobias has left

  938. Andrzej has left

  939. jcbrand has left

  940. stpeter has joined

  941. stpeter has left

  942. intosi has left

  943. lskdjf has joined

  944. emus has left

  945. emus has joined

  946. lskdjf has left

  947. marek has left