XSF Discussion - 2021-02-05

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  280. mathieui Am I the only one who thinks that the stickers XEP could use BOB?
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  299. Zash mathieui: Plausibly.
  300. Zash Maybe.
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  302. mathieui Ah right, BOB requires XHTML-IM, and we cannot have nice things anymore
  303. Zash Does it?
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  305. Zash Couldn't you plausibly send a cid:-URI in OOB or anything?
  306. mathieui That is technically allowed as far as I am aware
  307. Zash Obviously we can't have nice things tho.
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  309. mathieui although that makes yet another thing which is not end-to-end encrypted leading to a data leak, and we cannot have nice things
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  314. Link Mauve We’d have to migrate to OMEMO++ first.
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  316. jonas’ Link Mauve, do we?
  317. Link Mauve I think so?
  318. jonas’ FSE (full stanza encryption) is possible with OMEMO v0.3 IIRC
  319. jonas’ FSE (full stanza encryption) is possible with OMEMO v0.7 IIRC
  320. Link Mauve Current deployed OMEMO doesn’t support it, as that’s 0.3 or something.
  321. jonas’ Link Mauve, but then we just need OMEMO vdeployed++, not OMEMO++
  322. jonas’ (which I read as "a replacement for OMEMO")
  323. mathieui Link Mauve, that still does not cover the <iq/> file retrieval
  324. Link Mauve mathieui, oh?
  325. jonas’ mathieui, XMPP over IBB over <message/>!
  326. Link Mauve jonas’, my bad, that’s what I meant.
  327. mathieui Link Mauve, or does it?
  328. Link Mauve mathieui, <iq><omemo-encrypted><iq/></omemo-encrypted></iq>
  329. mathieui oh yeah, in an hypothetical future that may work
  330. jonas’ uhh
  331. jonas’ scratches head
  332. mathieui also that is still some kind of leak
  333. jonas’ I’m sure that will work just fine.
  334. mathieui looks at XTLS
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  336. Zash mixmaster over XMPP?
  337. Zash or ... what was that email thing called?
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  343. vanitasvitae > mathieui, <iq><omemo-encrypted><iq/></omemo-encrypted></iq> I tried to come up with a solution for encrypted <iq>s in sce
  344. vanitasvitae https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0420.html#use-case-iq
  345. jonas’ ha, it even uses BOB as example
  346. vanitasvitae ;)
  347. vanitasvitae So if someone does some experiments with it, please share feedback
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  410. arc Good morning everyone
  411. vanitasvitae hi arc
  412. arc Board meeting in 15 minutes. Do we have everyone this week?
  413. MattJ o/
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  419. arc There's also the foss foundations virtual drink up after the board meeting. Which would normally be held at this time in Brussels
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  428. ralphm bangs gavel
  429. ralphm 0. Welcome
  430. ralphm Hi!
  431. ralphm Who do we have today?
  432. arc Here
  433. MattJ Here
  434. ralphm dwd, Seve?
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  436. Seve Hi
  437. arc That is technically quorum? Not ideal though
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  439. ralphm I see 4 out of 5
  440. arc I typed that when we only had three 😋
  441. ralphm Ok
  442. ralphm I didn't see minutes, but I think we said we'd start with GSoC. Any other topics?
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  444. arc Are we as a board tackling the summit? That probably would have otherwise taken place this last week?
  445. ralphm Actually right now.
  446. ralphm FOSDEM is tomorrow
  447. arc It does not seem that SCAM is active right now
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  453. Zash Accurate. Last I looked, SCAM had no activity for months.
  454. ralphm I think the last meeting was in October
  455. arc I'm not criticizing, it happens to all of us. I'm just saying that we as a board should not be deferring to an inactive committee.
  456. ralphm And I think that's understandable, with lockdowns and stuff.
  457. ralphm We haven't actively asked SCAM to look into a virtual Summit
  458. arc In any case, we should perhaps put that on the intended today. since we are virtual this year we can always tackle it next week or two weeks from now
  459. ralphm https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/scam/2020-October/000007.html
  460. Daniel I'm personally not the biggest fan of online invents. The few events I attended last year haven't been very fun. I might attend a summit but I'm personally not super keen on organizing something I wouldn't really enjoy myself.
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  462. Daniel Saying this as a scam member
  463. Daniel Not sure about my fellow team members
  464. Daniel So feel free to send an official inquiry
  465. ralphm This is the last meeting, where they explicitly stated that 2021 is not an in-person event and there was scepticism on having a virtual one. That said, I like the ideas presented last week and we should go ahead with them.
  466. Zash Observation: pep. left the XSF some time after that.
  467. MattJ Daniel, I don't think you're alone, and I agree that online is far from ideal compared to in-person meetups
  468. ralphm ++
  469. MattJ I get the impression that FOSDEM have struggled to find speakers, I believe interest has been lower
  470. arc But we can't shut down as an organization just because we can't do in person events
  471. MattJ But I also don't believe we can legitimately take a year off
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  473. MattJ I agree
  474. MattJ Less than ideal is better than nothing
  475. Zash Suggestion (hat:xsf member): Postmortem for this would be good.
  476. ralphm Last week it was pointed out that not having any type of gathering would leave us without concentrated discussions on protocol, as we usually have at the Summit.
  477. Kev I think, FWIW, FOSDEM’s appeal as a virtual event would be lower than the Summit’s. But I could be very wrong about how effectively we can have a 30/40 person remote Summit.
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  481. Zash Kev, we could see it as a stress-test of online meeting things, then split into focus groups to argue about XEPs.
  482. arc I think an online event would be better if we spread it out. Instead of everyone getting together for one day, split the topics up and have several focused meetings
  483. MattJ arc, agreed
  484. arc My experience with online events is there better when they're shorter
  485. Kev I don’t agree with that, FWIW. It’s much easier for me to block out one day that’s going to be an event to attend than work an hour here and there into my work week.
  486. MattJ Shorter and more focused. I'm sure not going to hang around all day in a 40-person online video conference
  487. Daniel Time zones will probably also put a limit on it
  488. Kev But not disagreeing to the point that I’m going to argue it shouldn’t happen.
  489. Daniel Probably something in the European pm
  490. ralphm Daniel, with your scam hat on, do you think your team would pick up planning / organising something like this?
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  493. Daniel If the team is just me then the honest answer to that is no
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  495. ralphm Well, officially SCAM is also Guus and nyco.
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  497. Daniel What's the amount of organzing you want to put into this
  498. Daniel Like should we just pick a week day and have four weeks after each other with 2-3 hours each?
  499. MattJ I think the logistics of organizing an online event (or multiple) are far lower than an in-person event
  500. MattJ i.e. I don't really care if SCAM isn't going to do anything. Multiple community members do want to do something, and I hope we can self-organize.
  501. ralphm Sure. Starting with a wiki page for collecting ideas seems prudent.
  502. MattJ I would try help out with that, but the next few weeks will be difficult for me
  503. arc Let's continue discussion after the meeting
  504. arc We do have the agenda item of gsoc
  505. ralphm right
  506. ralphm 1. GSoC
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  509. ralphm :-D
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  511. ralphm So, last time I remember, arc explained that payments by Google are lower and suggested the XSF compensates.
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  513. arc I would actually suggest that we compensate by shifting to outreachy this year
  514. Kev Lower, but the time is lower too isn’t it? Aren’t students expected to do half the work for half the pay?
  515. arc Yep. But they also shut down several other programs, we may be looking at the last year, or years, of gsoc
  516. lskdjf It's not just that the payments are lower, the projects are also supposed to be _shorter_. So the payment per time stays the same. Google apparently wants to try and open gsoc to more people, and they think that shorter projects are beneficial for that goal.
  517. ralphm For those here (including floor) who've mentored, are shorter projects expected to be effective (enough)?
  518. Kev I don’t want to shit on Google for making the change, they can do what they like with the programme. But a lot of the overhead for mentors and orgs is frontloaded.
  519. ralphm Oh, don't take me wrong. I am just curious if the change would work *for us*.
  520. Kev So the amount of code produced is much lower relative to mentor/admin effort, and the change (I predict with no data) of integrating people into the community is lower (but there is a counter argument that it might be higher because it’s less mercenary).
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  525. arc I think it is still worth doing.
  526. SamWhited FWIW I had been thinking about trying to get my project into GSoC this year under the XSF organization. I haven't done it before, but smaller projects would actually fit in with the handful of ideas I had much better than the old larger ones.
  527. arc I'm just suggesting we start to shift to outreachy. Because GSoC has always been a valuable program, and should it come to an end with this year, it would be ready to fully shift over
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  529. Zash There's a GSoC for documentation, right? Anyone have any experience with that? May be closer to the core XSF thing of writing specifications, and FOSS projects are often struggling with keeping their docs up to date.
  530. ralphm There is, but it is later
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  533. arc GSoC is about writing code, not "documentation"
  534. Zash I'm referring to Season of Docs
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  536. arc Ah.
  537. ralphm I think, if they do it again, it will be announced in March
  538. Zash Indeed, so ignore me until then 🙂
  539. larma I don't see an issue with smaller projects. Surely needs some adjustments to how we do things, but probably still worth it. At least for the projects that are not backed by companies
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  541. ralphm I understand (from last meeting) that arc would be happy to admin (if no one else is interested) and that Kev would be around to help if he has spare cycles. Arc also suggested shifting to outreachy but I haven't seem any response on that here.
  542. ralphm seen
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  544. arc I have some response from there.
  545. SamWhited ¿Por qué no los dos?
  546. arc For both programs we mostly need an idea's list
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  548. ralphm SamWhited, I am not sure what the overhead is of running both
  549. ralphm Organisationally, paying out is different. For Outreachy, we'd have to do this ourselves.
  550. ralphm arc: can you start collecting ideas, while we figure this out?
  551. arc Yep, happy to.
  552. ralphm (i.e. do the wiki thing)
  553. ralphm Thanks!
  554. larma ralphm: I don't think we do the payouts with outreachy, we just provide the money.
  555. arc That is true.
  556. ralphm which is differnt from GSoC, I haven't looked at the specifics
  557. arc We supply the funding, but the people in charge of outreachy do the payouts.
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  560. ralphm Good to know.
  561. larma (And they charge a huge cut for the processing)
  562. ralphm Next week, let's discuss if we want to do GSoC, Outreachy, or both and how. For now let's gather the ideas.
  563. ralphm I think that's all the time we have today.
  564. ralphm 2. Date of Next
  565. ralphm +1W
  566. ralphm 3. Close
  567. ralphm Thanks all!
  568. ralphm bangs gavel
  569. Seve Thank you guys!
  570. larma I think we should get this to the mailing list, because I'm missing inputs from flow, vanitasvitae and other previous gsoc mentors/admins
  571. lskdjf Since GSoC doesn't require the XSF to contribute money, I don't understand why the XSF doesn't just go with it as long as GSoC exists and there are project maintainers that want to make use of it.
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  573. SamWhited Reading through the outreachy community guidelines and I really like how they structure this. Seems like it would be a lot more work for the XSF since we'd have to be the fiscal sponsor and we'd probably be able to sponsor fewer interns who would have to pick the project they want to work on from among all the people vying to be their mentor, but it seems like it would be a good fit
  574. Kev FWIW, I’m a little uneasy about the XSF using its limited funds to pay for development of some projects over others. If the money came from the projects themselves that concern goes away.
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  576. SamWhited The XSF probably wouldn't pick the projects, projects would just apply and the interns would pick them I think. The XSF is just paying interns.
  577. Kev Well, surely the XSF chooses which internships get selected, like GSoC.
  578. moparisthebest could just require all code written by XSF-funded interns to be AGPLv3 , then there is no conflict of interest problems if a company wants free labor :D
  579. SamWhited I think it would just pick the students though, give them a list of projects that applied for an intern, and the students would pick the project, but maybe not.
  580. MattJ Kev, you've raised that issue in the past, and I have to say I think I increasingly dislike it as time goes on
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  582. SamWhited And the XSF could just not vet the projects beyond "it meets the criteria defined by the program" (which is basically "OSI approved license"
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  585. MattJ I mean, dislike having that as a rule the XSF should follow
  586. larma The issue seems to be that Outreachy targets open-source communities but the XSF isn't an open-source community but an open-standards organization.
  587. SamWhited The XSF would just be the fiscal sponsor acting as an umbrella like we do for GSoC, in my mind.
  588. MattJ If the code funded by the XSF is open-source then I have no problem with the XSF funding projects
  589. MattJ I *would* have issue with it funding closed-source projects
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  591. SamWhited If the XSF doesn't want to directly fund projects, they could also create a pool that projects and individuals can donate too and just be the fiscal sponsor without using any of their own money
  592. moparisthebest how do you define "is open-source" ? like I think SamWhited 's "OSI approved license" is correct, but that has to be the license it's submitted under too, ie, no CLA's ?
  593. MattJ The XSF... or another organization (back into that loop :) )
  594. SamWhited (since we're a US 501(c)3 but projects likely aren't and don't have a legal entity they can use)
  595. SamWhited moparisthebest: they have a definition on their website, I don't think we need to care beyond whatever they say
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  597. Zash whispers "Snikket CIC"
  598. larma MattJ: I share that opinion, but IIRC the XSF is believed to be neutral regarding open source vs closed source and this would be non-neutral...
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  601. Kev MattJ: There is pragmatism in my reason, FWIW, not just dogma. Getting sponsors happy to give money to random projects rather than directly helping XMPP Standards Development seems questionable. Maybe I’m wrong. Although I do know that some sponsorship hasn’t happened in the past because one of Board was mouthing off about the XSF not supporting anyone who wanted to make money off XMPP.
  602. SamWhited *nods* any org would do
  603. MattJ Zash, Snikket may be too opinionated for this particular case (despite having sponsored a bunch of open-source development in the past 12 months)
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  608. moparisthebest doesn't that assume projects don't directly help XMPP Standards Development? that seems wrong
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  610. MattJ Zash, OTOH maybe not, if it's a separate "fund the ecosystem" thing
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  612. MattJ moparisthebest, I agree, I think that's my thinking. Throwing money into standards development (??) is not what XMPP needs right now
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  615. Kev (FWIW, while I don’t know how effective it is, I am glad Snikket is doing what Snikket is doing)
  616. SamWhited I would actually be open to filing paperwork to start a thing that just accepts donations on behalf of XMPP projects, acts as a fiscal sponsor on OpenCollective or somewhere, does things like this, etc. if anyone is interested
  617. moparisthebest I'd argue helping fund development on these projects *is* throwing it directly into standards development
  618. Kev If the XSF wants to do Outreachy, why not try to get sponsors specifically for money to spend on Outreachy? That would render my concerns completely irrelevant.
  619. moparisthebest "standards development" isn't anything anyone here has ever done, am I wrong on that?
  620. SamWhited That sounds reasonable too, I do think the XSF is already positioned to be a fiscal sponsor for projects, it doesn't have to necessarily put its own money towards it
  621. moparisthebest instead, you have a need in a project/product/whatever, and standards come out of that
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  624. Kev All standards work is mean to be writing standards for things that are needed, I’m not sure what that point is.
  625. Kev Certainly people here have written standards, and certainly before implementations (and even without needing to implement it themselves).
  626. SamWhited board people: is this something that could go on the board meeting next week to discuss? Ie. can the XSF act as a fiscal sponsor for projects (where it just keeps track of money for them)? If so, I'd volunteer to help with that. If not, I'd volunteer to start an organization specifically for that.
  627. moparisthebest that process doesn't start out by writing standards though, it starts out by having a problem and thinking about how to solve it with code, in a project
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  630. Kev That is demonstrably wrong. We have written Standards to solve problems, before thinking about the code to go with them.
  631. moparisthebest so, funding code for project == funding standard development, in my opinion
  632. SamWhited moparisthebest: I think the best specs do that, but lots of them do it with no code written
  633. moparisthebest hehe, yea that's how you get standards no one implements
  634. moparisthebest MIX for example
  635. Kev Some of the worst specs come out of writing code before thinking about standardising too :)
  636. moparisthebest that's also fair
  637. moparisthebest so let's say "funding code for a project where standards are thought about from day 1" == "funding standard development"
  638. Zash moparisthebest, https://xkcd.com/844/
  639. SamWhited I think the worst specs come from *deploying* code before thinking about standardizing, not necessarily writing it :) writing it, then standardizing is sort of like writing unit tests before the code; you end up going back and forth and making changes, but it's good to have at least some basic unit tests to flush out the general shape of it first
  640. Zash also Kev
  641. Zash The worst code comes from writing code!
  642. SamWhited sorry, before it gets lost, /cc ralphm, arc, other board people see question above
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  647. Kev So, to avoid any misunderstanding, I’m concretely in favour of the XSF gathering sponsorship to pay for some Outreachy interns, and doing Outreachy with it.
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  650. Kev Although if we have reason to suspect this will be the last year of GSoC, there is a strong argument for trying to get money out of Google while we can :)
  651. arc I am reading, SamWhited. And remember I've been talking about seeking outside funding for a while.
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  653. moparisthebest assuming board decides it wants to do this at all, sounds like they need to decide 1. if it can be funded "normally" or 2. if it needs special funding
  654. SamWhited arc: my question isn't necessarily about outside funding (although the XSF could help raise that too for things like Outreachy) but about if I as a project want to take donations in many places I need a legal entity. Some NGOs act as fiscal sponsors and take donations that they keep separated out for other projects, and if the XSF was willing to act that way for open source projects that would probably be a big help to the ecosystem
  655. arc As a general rule, organizations that do things, are able to get funding to continue doing those things. We should not devolve into arguing about the distribution of those funds.
  656. SamWhited To be clear, the XSF wouldn't be distributing funds itself or deciding how they get distributed.
  657. arc I would be in favor of that. Especially since most XMPP projects are fairly small with only a few developers, and it is a big overhead for them to serve as their own fiscal sponsors
  658. SamWhited For example, let's say my project (Mellium) wants to take donations. Right now those go to me, I am personally liable, they are not tax deductible, and most organizations that process donations won't touch me with a 10 foot pole.
  659. SamWhited If the XSF were my fiscal sponsor though, the donation button on my website would go to the XSF and they'd just put it in the "Mellium" account or whatever. Other projects could do the same.
  660. arc I understand. I have served on the boards for a few fiscal sponsors.
  661. arc I am in favor of that. It is really not that much work for the small number of organizations we have.
  662. SamWhited 👍 (I've been specifically looking for one to use for some projects on OpenCollective and vaguely considering trying to start something, but at least for Mellium the XSF would be a logical place if it's something we have enough peopel to work on)
  663. SamWhited And I would volunteer since it's easier than starting a separate entity for me.
  664. arc Actually this might be an ideal time for this conversation. The FOSS foundations online drink up just started
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  666. SamWhited arc: link?
  667. arc Which is literally the people that you should be talking to 😋
  668. SamWhited I looked for FOSS Foundation when you mentioned it earlier but couldn't find anything?
  669. SamWhited I'm curious about this though
  670. arc https://video.eventyay.com/b/mar-rgt-jgy-zk0
  671. SamWhited Although it's only 1300 here, but meh, it's time for a beer somewhere
  672. arc It is 10:00 a.m. here
  673. SamWhited arc: are you still in Portland?
  674. arc Yep
  675. SamWhited Cool, a friend of mine is trying to move there right now (from Seattle)
  676. mdosch Too much rain, 'eh?
  677. mdosch Oh no, 'eh is vancouver. 😂
  678. arc I would recommend South Portland. Close to downtown, not terribly expensive, but quiet and not so much crime
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  684. arc It's not one of the rich people's neighborhoods. But if you wanted to go boating, eg, I live about two blocks from a boat launch.
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  697. arc This is a great example for the need for better foss a/v meeting software. Of course, xmpp based! BigBlueButton has problems
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  701. Zash Well you've got Zoom and Jitsi.
  702. arc Zoom isn't foss?!
  703. Zash Nope. Touch of XMPP in there at least.
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  708. arc I didn't know that. Not the first time I've been shocked. But I'm not talking about another multichat clone
  709. arc See the problem is that all the multi-chat software treats the room as if it were a stadium with a microphone. People step up on stage, speak into the microphone, sit down. Its slow and frustrating
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  711. arc Especially with these larger meetups.
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  713. SamWhited I don't think I've ever seen a good system for managing that in real life either that we could take as a metaphore for software
  714. arc And if someone were to work that out, AGPLv3 licensed, using xmpp, we win.
  715. arc Because it was instantly become they go to for every social group in the world
  716. mathieui arc, that is not true, jitsi meet does not do that
  717. Zash Wishing for something where you could, say, break off into smaller groups and talk more easily? Or whisper to whoever sits "next to you"?
  718. mathieui Also, zoom actually has "breakout rooms" which let you do just that (and it is nice in quite a lot of scenarios)
  719. SamWhited I'd push back on the AGPLv3 thing, but the "using xmpp" part sounds good :)
  720. SamWhited I think this has breakout rooms too, but I haven't tried it
  721. arc I'm thinking less formal. More like, groups in a room. Having two levels of microphone.
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  723. ralphm SamWhited: added to Trello
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  725. arc Less breakout rooms, more "circles". So you can wander through a room and talk to different circles. But everyone hears the person with the room microphone.
  726. arc SamWhited I thought you liked the AGPLv3
  727. Zash 2D location something and mic/speaker volume scaling?
  728. arc I wouldn't use or emulate location. Just letting people join circles.
  729. arc People have suggested using certain video games that do location based talking
  730. ralphm So ad hoc backchannels
  731. SamWhited arc: I am very strongly against AGPL (or basically everything GNU does); maybe that should be my controversial opinion :)
  732. arc Lol
  733. Kev Sam: You’re only allowed one.
  734. ralphm Also, I don't think it is controversial
  735. arc Ralphm yeah like adhoc breakout rooms. Which happen organically
  736. ralphm (the opinion, not Sam)
  737. SamWhited arc: I can't remember what it's called, but have you used the virtual neighborhoods chat thing? You sort of walk around a map like it's a little 2d video game and when you walk up to people their videos and mics fade in as you get close. It sounds gimmicky, but I've found it works very well
  738. arc People suggested that for this meeting. But here we are an hour on, still doing introductions
  739. arc I don't think we should be limited to emulating the real world. I'm thinking, do better than real world
  740. Kev It’d be good to start by not being worse than the physical world :)
  741. arc Lol true
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  745. arc Well it took an hour to mostly get through everyone's introductions 😂
  746. moparisthebest arc, me and pep were the very pro AGPLv3 for everything ones :)
  747. arc Chris DiBona sitting with Linux Torvalds convinced me that AGPLv3 is really the only way forward for FOSS.
  748. arc After that talk, I started relicensing everything. in increasingly lost interest in working on anything that's not.
  749. SamWhited I basically want an XMPP client but when you click a room on the left you get a video call on the right (possibly with chat too, but the focus is video calling). Which I guess is also like saying: Mumble with video. Instead of how most video call things work where you have semi-permanent rooms and you're really just in one at a time and can't switch between them rapidly
  750. arc Like, I haven't contributed to Gnome because all those contributions were LGPL.
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  755. SamWhited I basically feel the same way about (A)GPL as I do about politics; my actual deep-blood-of-the-worker-red comrades just think I'm pinko scum because I prefer the less limiting BSD, MIT, Apache, etc.
  756. arc Anything less is exploitive. I know too many housing challenged foss developers, many with some form of autism, working on foss because they love it. Many who's work is freely used my large corporations to make billions, and at best sometimes toss pocket change to those people. At best.
  757. arc The only people who are really limited by copyleft are the ones exploiting the community's work for profit. A vast majority of end users don't care what the license is.
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  759. SamWhited I agree with the desire to make large companies using open source pay their share, but I don't think licensing is the way to do it. It hurts me when there are more restrcitions in a license too even though I'm just also an open source dev who will try to use it correctly. Now I have to worry if I'm complying with every detail, what counts as linking and what doesn't and how that would be interpreted legally, do I have to change my license just because I want to use some sortware that has a ton of restrictions making it incompatible with it, etc.
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  761. arc I am paraphrasing here, but Chris DiBona was asked why code.google.com banned the AGPLv3. And his answer was shockingly honest: because AGPLv3 license would bankrupt them.
  762. Zash And here I just wanna do my thing and not worry about licensing.
  763. SamWhited There's also what Zash just said… I don't want to worry about it. Slapping a BSD like license on it and only using stuff that's slimilarly permissive lets me do that
  764. arc SamWhited, that's why I offer commercial licenses. Or more specifically, licensed exceptions
  765. moparisthebest arc, add this to the list of reasons: https://opensource.google/docs/using/agpl-policy/ (sounds same as yours but it written form)
  766. SamWhited I'd ad that to the list of reasons against :) I have the same fear as an OSS dev doing my best to respect the wishes of other software authors. I want to respect their wishes, but what if I accidentally trigger the viral provision?
  767. arc I offer extremely competitively priced exceptions. The only discrimination is against military and military contractors.
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  769. SamWhited I do like the idea of offering commercial license exceptions
  770. arc Yeah then it's not exploitative anymore.
  771. moparisthebest > here I just wanna do my thing and not worry about licensing. that's another reason, I can use code licensed almost anything in an AGPLv3 project, so it's also handier for me
  772. moparisthebest meh, to be able to offer commercial exceptions you need CLAs which are equally sleazy
  773. SamWhited But fewer people can use my project, I don't want them to have to worry either. I just want it out there. Hopefully companies will toss me a couple of bucks on occasion, or I can have some other way to monetize it that doesn't also make OSS devs have to jump through hoops if they want to use it and aren't using something compatible
  774. arc Lately I've been increasingly using a cooperative model. People who contribute code get a share of whatever comes from that code.
  775. SamWhited arc: I'd be really curious how you handle that? I like the co-op model a lot which is why I tend to split the copyright among all contributors, but I don't really make any money on anything I work on outside of <dayjob> so I'd love to know how it works when there's an actual big community rpoject
  776. SamWhited On a tagentially related note: would anyone with a GitHub account help me prove a point about why github stars are a bad metric for anything by starring a repo of mine? (I will not be making any benefit from this, it's just to prove a point that my project with no contributions from anyone except me can have a lot of stars)
  777. SamWhited https://github.com/mellium/xmpp if anyone is willing.
  778. moparisthebest I also like the "high number of issues == low quality software" metric
  779. moparisthebest can't fix stupid I guess ? :'(
  780. SamWhited Exactly, basically the same thing.
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  782. SamWhited When I was in school I did an internship with a defense contractor that gave raises based on the number of lines of code written in a git blame for the year. As you can imagine, it was the most ridiculously bloated software. All the stupid tricks like putting one argument per line even in small function calls would get called out in code review, but people still did things in stupid round about ways.
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  785. moparisthebest I thought that kind of thing was a joke
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  787. moparisthebest at work we joke that the contractors must be getting paid by the line, even though we know they aren't...
  788. Zash Don't they know it's the inverse of that! Also popularity ≠ quality!!11! Aaaargh, how do you become a potato farmer?
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  790. moparisthebest npm install potato-farmer ?
  791. SamWhited In this case it's popularity ≠ robust community. I started talking to someone from Open Colletive befor the FOSDEM call ended, so we're emailing to have the converation about why I think stars aren't anywhere close to their metric and my small project shouldn't have to jump through more hoops than a project that's equally small but a trendy tech and more people bookmarked it
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  793. moparisthebest I thought stars were more like github-bookmarks
  794. SamWhited They are.
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  796. moparisthebest like I have a couple hundred line arduino code snippets that haven't been touched since 2012 that I think might come in handy one day starred
  797. moparisthebest and, not things like curl, because I know where they are, and they are easy to find
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  802. mdosch > I thought stars were more like github-bookmarks I use them like that. 😃
  803. SamWhited I think a lot of people do, but a lot also use it to say thanks when someone makes something they use, which is I think where the "it obviously means it's popular" comes from.
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  805. moparisthebest yea I've never done that once, interesting
  806. moparisthebest I must have missed the "github: how to use stars" class
  807. SamWhited I mean, I think that's fine, I just don't think that means other people should attribute meaning to "100 stars" or whatever
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  809. Kev On a tagentially related note: would anyone with a PayPal account help me prove a point about why being rich is a bad metric for anything by sending me all their money? (I will not be making any benefit from this, it's just to prove a point ...)
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  811. SamWhited Oh man, my scam just feels so armetureish now. Kev wins.
  812. mdosch Kev, prince of Nigeria…
  813. SamWhited (but in all seriousness, I am trying to convince Open Collective to come up with some metric other than GitHub stars)
  814. mdosch What would be a good metric?
  815. Kev There isn’t one? :)
  816. SamWhited Yah, I think it's got ot be something you determine individually, not by something specific to a code hosting service
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  818. SamWhited Maybe a mix of unique contributors, activity over time (including having multiple people consitsently active), etc.?
  819. Kev It also depends what you’re trying to measure. Quality, or ease of access as a contributor?
  820. Kev If it’s the former, number of contributors isn’t a particularly good metric. If the latter, it may well be.
  821. SamWhited I think they're trying to measure the health of the community
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  823. Kev Your suggestions sound like a reasonable way to think about that then, yes. I assumed it was something project-related.
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  825. SamWhited Sorry, should have explained up front. Open Collective accepts projects into their fiscal host only if they have >100 stars on GitHub. I believe that is a bad metric. I said so as the "controversial opinion" question in a call earlier and someone form Open Collective reached out and asked if I was talking about them and why I thought it was a bad idea
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  827. SamWhited So I thought before I sent an email I'd try and get my project with literally no community up to that number and link them to it and a few others I know that are at or close to that.
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  832. mdosch Afair I even got a star on github for a repo that was automatically cloned into my account when I just PRed something minor like a typo. 🙂
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