XSF Discussion - 2021-02-12

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  347. theTedd gentle reminder for 20-21 submissions 😁
  348. Ge0rG There is still time!
  349. theTedd thanks already to Sam and Thilo ;)
  350. theTedd there is! hence the reminder
  351. jonas’ I’m still lacking inspiration
  352. theTedd how would 200 imaginary euros inspire you?
  353. jonas’ more like: what to put into the application
  354. jonas’ content-wise
  355. theTedd the joys of developing with aioxmpp?
  356. MattJ If jonas’ doesn't want the imaginary euros I'll gladly take them off your hands
  357. theTedd sold to the Matt with the J!
  358. MattJ I'll try not to spend them all at once
  359. theTedd 14 reasons why you you should start using jabbercat NOW! number 4 will amaze you!!!!!!!
  360. Zash Inb4 "How I got 200 imaginary euros" by MattJ
  361. MattJ :D
  362. Ge0rG "Implement Passive Income with the XMPP Standards Foundation"
  363. theTedd pubcoin - a pubsub bitcoin model for online payments
  364. Zash "How we brought back the <payment-required/> stanza error"
  365. theTedd that one secret all xmpp developers don't want you to know
  366. MattJ I'm making notes
  367. theTedd cool 👍
  368. Zash "How async day saved the, a tale of+++CARRIER LOST"
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  371. theTedd that's enough fermented potato juice, Zash
  372. Zash Not enough you say? Well it is friday after all.
  373. theTedd skål!
  374. SamWhited 20-21?
  375. SamWhited oh, summit 2021? Sorry, wasn't sure what submissions these were or how I'd submitted one :)
  376. theTedd can you claim lack of coffee?
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  381. SamWhited No, plenty of coffee this morning, just didn't know what "submissions" meant without context and got confused by the 2021 with a typo (I assume) dash in the middle :)
  382. Zash "submissions" is SMTP over TLS for email submission, silly!
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  384. theTedd no typo, it's 20-21 (Feb 2021)
  385. jonas’ such confusion
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  387. SamWhited 02-21?
  388. jonas’ no, 20th - 21th february
  389. Zash /[-012]+/
  390. jonas’ no, 20th - 21st february
  391. SamWhited ooooh, it's a day range
  392. jonas’ .oO(21st february fox)
  393. theTedd the 22st will confuse everyone
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  429. arc Almost time for the board meeting
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  432. arc Ralph, dwd, Seve, mattj
  433. Seve Hey
  434. MattJ Hey
  435. arc Just flagging everyone because I know it helps remind me
  436. arc ralphm: are you here? Realizing I spelled your name wrong before
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  438. arc Okay well we have quorum in any case, do we have an agenda?
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  441. Seve I'm not aware of any
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  444. arc The only agenda item I would have is gsoc and nobody has submitted any project ideas yet
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  446. arc And at 15 minutes after are at the point of having to cancel the meeting
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  448. SamWhited I'll put something on the wiki today.
  449. SamWhited I would also still like to re-add if the agenda is shifting a discussion about the XSF acting as a fiscal sponsor for XMPP related projects.
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  451. arc Yeah we have barely even discussed outreachy
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  457. SamWhited arc: actually, I don't fully understand what the wiki is asking. Does it want a list of gsoc teasers or the full project that would be the gsoc task if someone were to subscribe?
  458. arc Project ideas just like previous years.
  459. arc I will write an email too members@ though I am fully aware that most people just ignore those emails
  460. SamWhited Neustradamus: I don't want to get into an edit war with you on the wiki, but I changed the title of that SASL/SCRAM page for a reason, why do you think it needs a list of every possible mechanism on the home page?
  461. Kev I read all the members@ mails.
  462. arc I stand mistaken
  463. Kev Kev doesn’t, therefore most must be wrong :D
  464. Neustradamus SamWhited: it is for search engine.
  465. Neustradamus SamWhited: it is for search engines.
  466. arc Your point is valid and accepted. I was mistaken
  467. MattJ Neustradamus, the wiki is for people, not search engines
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  469. Neustradamus The wiki is indexed in search engines.
  470. SamWhited Neustradamus: that is not useful, the main page doesn't need to be what comes up when someone searches for a specific sasl mechanism. The page in question will have them listed, that seems good enough. I am going to undo that edit, it just clutters up the main page.
  471. arc Does our robots.txt even permit search engine indexing?
  472. arc Though I would find the methods interesting, they could be on a sub page?
  473. Neustradamus It is really important
  474. Neustradamus Official sources are on it
  475. SamWhited Neustradamus: giant bold lists in the sidebar are not important, I promise.
  476. SamWhited The official source is already the page itself, which still has all of these mechanisms listed.
  477. Neustradamus Which help people.
  478. SamWhited They don't need to be listed every single place that links to them.
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  482. SamWhited One day I will figure out how to add links on this wiki… after like 4 tries I finally remembered the syntax, but for one link it works and for the second link it doesn't even though they appear identical *grumble, grumble*
  483. SamWhited arc: added a possible project that I think will be big enough to take up the whole time
  484. arc Cool thanks
  485. SamWhited Actually, going to add a second one that I care less about but which might be more useful to the community or more interesting to the students, I assume it's okay to have multiple and the students pick what they want to do if we get some?
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  489. SamWhited > A list of teaser tasks is given in the Project Ideas overview arc: does this mean we should add a link to teaser tasks too? That's what was confusing me I think
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  491. arc Teaser tasks are for students who are applying because we, like most organizations, require students to contribute some code as part of their application process
  492. arc Though I'm not sure how the wiki was intended, I really just copied last year's format
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  494. arc And yes you should provide several ideas for students, and keep in mind that students are not required to select from the list
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  496. SamWhited thanks
  497. Kev I *think* how I used to do it was to have the Projects listed on the XSF wiki, and the teasers listed on the software group’s pages. I neither pretend that it’s impossible I misremember, nor that this must have been optimal.
  498. SamWhited I'll go back and look how it was done in past years, thanks
  499. Daniel i, for example, used to tag certain issues as 'teaser-task' and then linked to a filtered list on my issue tracker
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  520. arc The task list is the most important thing. That is required to actually submit an application
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  522. SamWhited I reformatted the page with a few project ideas and linked to my "Good intro tasks" tag, although maybe for GSoC students I should add some more difficult stuff. We'll see if anyone is actually interested then I can direct them at other issues I guess.
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  620. mimi89999 Hello
  621. mimi89999 I dislike several things about XEP-0389 data forms.
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  623. mimi89999 First of all, I don't like that forms can have a title. I think that the client should make it clear that it's a form sent by the server or an evil server (I know that registering on an untrusted server is bad) can make the client show a form that would look like a form to log in to a trusted server.
  624. mimi89999 I said more about it here: https://github.com/dino/dino/pull/990#discussion_r575390603
  625. mimi89999 Another issue I noticed is that servers might present the same elements under very different UIs. Let's take the ToS as an example. Some servers can show it in the instruction, others can put it in a fixed field or as a label of a bool setting.
  626. mimi89999 Were there any attempts to improve the situation?
  627. Zash There was https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/tos.html
  628. Zash And data forms are defined by XEP-0004, not 389. And we all hate it, but also don't really want to change it since it's used by everything.
  629. Zash And they do present quite an UI/UX challenge.
  630. mimi89999 Only Gajim implentented 389 fully and can show forms from every server correctly.
  631. Zash 389 is implemented? This is news to me
  632. mimi89999 Dino has partial support, that I tried to improve and Siskin also.has partial support.
  633. mimi89999 Conversation and Monal.don't support them at all
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  635. mimi89999 See this
  636. SamWhited I didn't realize that, good to know. I'm all for defining different challenges, I hate dataforms, it was just the thing that's available so I used it.
  637. mimi89999 https://lebihan.pl/xmpp-upload/index.php/57052777-b4d4-4d10-b0fa-3db30420883a/cN-Gzj4MRSyAHowu1oo-Ow.png
  638. mimi89999 Or the screenshots under https://github.com/dino/dino/issues/988
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  640. lovetox iv Gajim does not implement 0389
  641. lovetox Gajim does not implement 0389
  642. SamWhited That issue doesn't look like 0389 either
  643. lovetox mimi89999, ibr is defined in XEP-0077
  644. mimi89999 lovetox: What do you have then?
  645. lovetox 0389 trys to make 0077 better, or have a different more flexibel approach
  646. lovetox but its not supported by anyone yet to my knowledge
  647. lovetox and it does not change forms in any way
  648. mimi89999 OK. 0077. Sorry for the confusion. I looked at 0004 for the form spec anyway.
  649. mimi89999 s/389/077/
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  660. mimi89999 > The XMPP ecosystem has no way to allow clients to display or refer the user to the Terms of Service and Privacy Policy of any given server. Well, IBR forms are a way...
  661. SamWhited Most things don't support that though and they're not wrong that this is a major issue for any service that wants to use XMPP and allow third party clients.
  662. SamWhited Whoever "they" are.
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  664. Zash And that's part of the reason for 389, to have a better framework to solve that kind of issue.
  665. mimi89999 They it's probably jonas’
  666. SamWhited Yah, it doesn't actually solve this problem yet, but if we can get to a place where most things support it hopefully it will be easier to add a standard "simple" registration method with a few common fields that everything can implement easier and it will spread quicker than forms (I hope)
  667. SamWhited Of course, it relies on implementing a new framework for sending forms first, which is even harder to get implemented than data forms in 0077, so it probably just doesn't solve this issue.
  668. mimi89999 Some clients already support IBR forms.
  669. SamWhited "some" is not "most" unfortunately. And it's very few I suspect.
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  672. mimi89999 Gajim has full support. Dino has partial support, that I tried to improve and Siskin also has partial support.
  673. SamWhited That's still not "most", though thanks for trying to improve registration support :)
  674. mimi89999 https://github.com/dino/dino/issues/988
  675. SamWhited Point is that it's hard to do, so a lot of clients don't, which makes a company wanting to implement things on XMPP less likely to allow third party clients (I suspect)
  676. mimi89999 Why would a company do IBR?
  677. SamWhited Because they want you to be able to download their app and sign up for an account on their server.
  678. SamWhited But that's why I'm saying I agree with the person who said "XMPP ecosystem has no way to allow clients to display the TOS" or whatever, like you said, there's technically IBR, but it's not widely supported and has the bugs you mentioned, so it's not really a good way to do it and people won't use it.
  679. mimi89999 That would be quite easy to do. The form would be known and static. They could also just display the form on their website with webview.
  680. SamWhited Sure, that's what they'd do instead, but that's not part of the XMPP ecosystem and won't work on third party clients
  681. SamWhited That's why I'm suggesting your original quote was right: there's no good way to do it in the XMPP ecosystem, so companies will put their website in webview instead and won't allow third party clients.
  682. mimi89999 The forms allow for too much customization, that's why they are hard to implement
  683. SamWhited I agree.
  684. Zash It is a blessing and a curse.
  685. mimi89999 what's the status of the tos xep?
  686. SamWhited I spent ages trying to do a data forms implementation recently (well, trying to fix an existing broken one, this is like the third or fourth time I've tried to implement it) and even after figuring out an okay way to do it in the end I still ended up not being able to support the multi-item form stuff. No idea how I'm going to make that work.
  687. SamWhited tos xep?
  688. mimi89999 https://github.com/maranda/metronome/commit/89f49ee2f4cb6825c19f9d60b6aae00435d5614f
  689. Zash The one in inbox? Wasn't accepted.
  690. Zash That's .. just a form field
  691. mimi89999 Metronome just went and implemented ToS with exactly one client I know being able to display it: Gajim.
  692. mimi89999 > The one in inbox? Wasn't accepted. Why?
  693. SamWhited I missed that one somehow and don't see it on standards@ or in my inbox; link?
  694. SamWhited Or rough date range if it was a little older?
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  696. Zash 2018-05-something
  697. SamWhited ah yes, that is older, thanks
  698. Zash https://logs.xmpp.org/council/2018-05-30?p=h#2018-05-30-258449810c08bba6
  699. mimi89999 Also, ToS isn't the only thing admins want. Some are asking for mail, others use custom catchas...
  700. SamWhited oh yah, I remember this now. Yah, it seem(ed|s) like it's just duplicating forms except with fewer options. I would eventually like to have something like this as part of whatever eIBR/SASL2 combination we eventually come up with.
  701. SamWhited Also pre-auth IQs. Maybe it's time to revive this one and fix some of the issues.
  702. Zash forms in IBR isn't all that widely supported, which I suppose is what mimi89999 is talking about
  703. mimi89999 Yes
  704. Zash Anything other than username and password usually limits you to certain advanced clients.
  705. SamWhited Yah, probably good to have a simplified version. Just not one that also mixes in form elemetns and has most of the same extra stuff as forms.
  706. mimi89999 Even Conv doesn't do it.
  707. Zash XEP-0077 has existed for ~18 years. We can't force clients developers to implement things.