MattJIf jonas’ doesn't want the imaginary euros I'll gladly take them off your hands
theTeddsold to the Matt with the J!
MattJI'll try not to spend them all at once
theTedd14 reasons why you you should start using jabbercat NOW! number 4 will amaze you!!!!!!!
ZashInb4 "How I got 200 imaginary euros" by MattJ
MattJ:D
Ge0rG"Implement Passive Income with the XMPP Standards Foundation"
theTeddpubcoin - a pubsub bitcoin model for online payments
Zash"How we brought back the <payment-required/> stanza error"
theTeddthat one secret all xmpp developers don't want you to know
MattJI'm making notes
theTeddcool 👍
Zash"How async day saved the, a tale of+++CARRIER LOST"
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theTeddthat's enough fermented potato juice, Zash
ZashNot enough you say? Well it is friday after all.
theTeddskål!
SamWhited20-21?
SamWhitedoh, summit 2021? Sorry, wasn't sure what submissions these were or how I'd submitted one :)
theTeddcan you claim lack of coffee?
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SamWhitedNo, plenty of coffee this morning, just didn't know what "submissions" meant without context and got confused by the 2021 with a typo (I assume) dash in the middle :)
Zash"submissions" is SMTP over TLS for email submission, silly!
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theTeddno typo, it's 20-21 (Feb 2021)
jonas’such confusion
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SamWhited02-21?
jonas’no, 20th - 21th february
Zash/[-012]+/
jonas’no, 20th - 21st february
SamWhitedooooh, it's a day range
jonas’.oO(21st february fox)
theTeddthe 22st will confuse everyone
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arcAlmost time for the board meeting
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arcRalph, dwd, Seve, mattj
SeveHey
MattJHey
arcJust flagging everyone because I know it helps remind me
arcralphm: are you here? Realizing I spelled your name wrong before
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arcOkay well we have quorum in any case, do we have an agenda?
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SeveI'm not aware of any
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arcThe only agenda item I would have is gsoc and nobody has submitted any project ideas yet
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arcAnd at 15 minutes after are at the point of having to cancel the meeting
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SamWhitedI'll put something on the wiki today.
SamWhitedI would also still like to re-add if the agenda is shifting a discussion about the XSF acting as a fiscal sponsor for XMPP related projects.
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arcYeah we have barely even discussed outreachy
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SamWhitedarc: actually, I don't fully understand what the wiki is asking. Does it want a list of gsoc teasers or the full project that would be the gsoc task if someone were to subscribe?
arcProject ideas just like previous years.
arcI will write an email too members@ though I am fully aware that most people just ignore those emails
SamWhitedNeustradamus: I don't want to get into an edit war with you on the wiki, but I changed the title of that SASL/SCRAM page for a reason, why do you think it needs a list of every possible mechanism on the home page?
KevI read all the members@ mails.
arcI stand mistaken
KevKev doesn’t, therefore most must be wrong :D
NeustradamusSamWhited: it is for search engine.
NeustradamusSamWhited: it is for search engines.
arcYour point is valid and accepted. I was mistaken
MattJNeustradamus, the wiki is for people, not search engines
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NeustradamusThe wiki is indexed in search engines.
SamWhitedNeustradamus: that is not useful, the main page doesn't need to be what comes up when someone searches for a specific sasl mechanism. The page in question will have them listed, that seems good enough. I am going to undo that edit, it just clutters up the main page.
arcDoes our robots.txt even permit search engine indexing?
arcThough I would find the methods interesting, they could be on a sub page?
NeustradamusIt is really important
NeustradamusOfficial sources are on it
SamWhitedNeustradamus: giant bold lists in the sidebar are not important, I promise.
SamWhitedThe official source is already the page itself, which still has all of these mechanisms listed.
NeustradamusWhich help people.
SamWhitedThey don't need to be listed every single place that links to them.
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SamWhitedOne day I will figure out how to add links on this wiki… after like 4 tries I finally remembered the syntax, but for one link it works and for the second link it doesn't even though they appear identical *grumble, grumble*
SamWhitedarc: added a possible project that I think will be big enough to take up the whole time
arcCool thanks
SamWhitedActually, going to add a second one that I care less about but which might be more useful to the community or more interesting to the students, I assume it's okay to have multiple and the students pick what they want to do if we get some?
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SamWhited> A list of teaser tasks is given in the Project Ideas overview
arc: does this mean we should add a link to teaser tasks too? That's what was confusing me I think
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arcTeaser tasks are for students who are applying because we, like most organizations, require students to contribute some code as part of their application process
arcThough I'm not sure how the wiki was intended, I really just copied last year's format
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arcAnd yes you should provide several ideas for students, and keep in mind that students are not required to select from the list
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SamWhitedthanks
KevI *think* how I used to do it was to have the Projects listed on the XSF wiki, and the teasers listed on the software group’s pages. I neither pretend that it’s impossible I misremember, nor that this must have been optimal.
SamWhitedI'll go back and look how it was done in past years, thanks
Danieli, for example, used to tag certain issues as 'teaser-task' and then linked to a filtered list on my issue tracker
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arcThe task list is the most important thing. That is required to actually submit an application
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SamWhitedI reformatted the page with a few project ideas and linked to my "Good intro tasks" tag, although maybe for GSoC students I should add some more difficult stuff. We'll see if anyone is actually interested then I can direct them at other issues I guess.
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mimi89999Hello
mimi89999I dislike several things about XEP-0389 data forms.
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mimi89999First of all, I don't like that forms can have a title. I think that the client should make it clear that it's a form sent by the server or an evil server (I know that registering on an untrusted server is bad) can make the client show a form that would look like a form to log in to a trusted server.
mimi89999I said more about it here: https://github.com/dino/dino/pull/990#discussion_r575390603
mimi89999Another issue I noticed is that servers might present the same elements under very different UIs. Let's take the ToS as an example. Some servers can show it in the instruction, others can put it in a fixed field or as a label of a bool setting.
mimi89999Were there any attempts to improve the situation?
ZashThere was https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/tos.html
ZashAnd data forms are defined by XEP-0004, not 389. And we all hate it, but also don't really want to change it since it's used by everything.
ZashAnd they do present quite an UI/UX challenge.
mimi89999Only Gajim implentented 389 fully and can show forms from every server correctly.
Zash389 is implemented? This is news to me
mimi89999Dino has partial support, that I tried to improve and Siskin also.has partial support.
mimi89999Conversation and Monal.don't support them at all
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mimi89999See this
SamWhitedI didn't realize that, good to know. I'm all for defining different challenges, I hate dataforms, it was just the thing that's available so I used it.
mimi89999Or the screenshots under https://github.com/dino/dino/issues/988
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lovetoxiv Gajim does not implement 0389
lovetoxGajim does not implement 0389
SamWhitedThat issue doesn't look like 0389 either
lovetoxmimi89999, ibr is defined in XEP-0077
mimi89999lovetox: What do you have then?
lovetox0389 trys to make 0077 better, or have a different more flexibel approach
lovetoxbut its not supported by anyone yet to my knowledge
lovetoxand it does not change forms in any way
mimi89999OK. 0077. Sorry for the confusion. I looked at 0004 for the form spec anyway.
mimi89999s/389/077/
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mimi89999> The XMPP ecosystem has no way to allow clients to display or refer the user to the Terms of Service and Privacy Policy of any given server.
Well, IBR forms are a way...
SamWhitedMost things don't support that though and they're not wrong that this is a major issue for any service that wants to use XMPP and allow third party clients.
SamWhitedWhoever "they" are.
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ZashAnd that's part of the reason for 389, to have a better framework to solve that kind of issue.
mimi89999They it's probably jonas’
SamWhitedYah, it doesn't actually solve this problem yet, but if we can get to a place where most things support it hopefully it will be easier to add a standard "simple" registration method with a few common fields that everything can implement easier and it will spread quicker than forms (I hope)
SamWhitedOf course, it relies on implementing a new framework for sending forms first, which is even harder to get implemented than data forms in 0077, so it probably just doesn't solve this issue.
mimi89999Some clients already support IBR forms.
SamWhited"some" is not "most" unfortunately. And it's very few I suspect.
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mimi89999Gajim has full support. Dino has partial support, that I tried to improve and Siskin also has partial support.
SamWhitedThat's still not "most", though thanks for trying to improve registration support :)
mimi89999https://github.com/dino/dino/issues/988
SamWhitedPoint is that it's hard to do, so a lot of clients don't, which makes a company wanting to implement things on XMPP less likely to allow third party clients (I suspect)
mimi89999Why would a company do IBR?
SamWhitedBecause they want you to be able to download their app and sign up for an account on their server.
SamWhitedBut that's why I'm saying I agree with the person who said "XMPP ecosystem has no way to allow clients to display the TOS" or whatever, like you said, there's technically IBR, but it's not widely supported and has the bugs you mentioned, so it's not really a good way to do it and people won't use it.
mimi89999That would be quite easy to do. The form would be known and static. They could also just display the form on their website with webview.
SamWhitedSure, that's what they'd do instead, but that's not part of the XMPP ecosystem and won't work on third party clients
SamWhitedThat's why I'm suggesting your original quote was right: there's no good way to do it in the XMPP ecosystem, so companies will put their website in webview instead and won't allow third party clients.
mimi89999The forms allow for too much customization, that's why they are hard to implement
SamWhitedI agree.
ZashIt is a blessing and a curse.
mimi89999what's the status of the tos xep?
SamWhitedI spent ages trying to do a data forms implementation recently (well, trying to fix an existing broken one, this is like the third or fourth time I've tried to implement it) and even after figuring out an okay way to do it in the end I still ended up not being able to support the multi-item form stuff. No idea how I'm going to make that work.
mimi89999Also, ToS isn't the only thing admins want. Some are asking for mail, others use custom catchas...
SamWhitedoh yah, I remember this now. Yah, it seem(ed|s) like it's just duplicating forms except with fewer options. I would eventually like to have something like this as part of whatever eIBR/SASL2 combination we eventually come up with.
SamWhitedAlso pre-auth IQs. Maybe it's time to revive this one and fix some of the issues.
Zashforms in IBR isn't all that widely supported, which I suppose is what mimi89999 is talking about
mimi89999Yes
ZashAnything other than username and password usually limits you to certain advanced clients.
SamWhitedYah, probably good to have a simplified version. Just not one that also mixes in form elemetns and has most of the same extra stuff as forms.
mimi89999Even Conv doesn't do it.
ZashXEP-0077 has existed for ~18 years. We can't force clients developers to implement things.