XSF Discussion - 2021-02-19

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  149. marc

    arc: thanks!

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  431. ralphm bangs gavel

  432. dwd


  433. ralphm

    0. Welcome + Agenda

  434. ralphm

    Hi! Who do we have today?

  435. dwd waves

  436. ralphm

    Agenda items: GSoC, Outreachy.

  437. ralphm

    arc, MattJ?

  438. dwd

    OK, can I add "This timeslot doesn't appear to work for most of us most of the time" to the agenda?

  439. dwd

    I'm finding it massively difficult, and it seems to be tough for others too.

  440. ralphm


  441. ralphm

    Also, Seve's resignation.

  442. ralphm


  443. L29Ah

    how do i make myself look eligible for outreachy?

  444. ralphm

    I think the whole point of outreachy is that looks are irrelevant

  445. L29Ah

    yes, but at the second look you have to look like some kind of minority to pass, and everyone is a minority in some sense

  446. moparisthebest

    Yea I got the impression you had to have a specific "look" to be eligible

  447. Kev

    I think that’s somewhat the point, isn’t it?

  448. arc

    Sorry here

  449. ralphm

    I think arc described it well here: https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2021-02-18#2021-02-18-437efe9a57311f35

  450. ralphm

    Hi arc

  451. ralphm

    We have quorum

  452. ralphm


  453. ralphm

    1. Minute taker

  454. ralphm

    I think dwd is up, correct me if I'm wrong

  455. dwd


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  457. ralphm

    2. Seve's resignation

  458. dwd

    I'd not heard about this. Did he resign via email?

  459. ralphm

    Seve's sent an e-mail to Board that live's interfering with his Directorship and that he feels that doing it half-half isn't ideal. So he wishes to resign.

  460. ralphm


  461. dwd

    OK, I'm not on the Board mailing list, then.

  462. ralphm

    I would like to extend great thanks to Seve for all his work on Board for the past few years!

  463. ralphm

    dwd: that's bad

  464. Kev

    I’ll second that from the peanut gallery ;)

  465. ralphm

    dwd: if MattJ was here, I'd ask him to add you (again)

  466. ralphm

    Or Kev can?

  467. Kev

    dwd: I think that’s MattJ’s remit usually, but I can also do the magic, I believe. Would you like me to?

  468. ralphm

    Yes please

  469. Kev

    dwd: Which addy?

  470. arc

    Either am I apparently

  471. Kev

    arc: Which addy?

  472. ralphm


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  474. dwd

    Kev, dave@cridland.net

  475. ralphm

    I'll send you the messages from the start of the term

  476. arc


  477. ralphm

    (since we don't keep an archive, I think)

  478. Kev

    Pep and Seve to be removed, Dave and Arc to be added?

  479. Kev

    What about Guus? Jonas stays as Council chair, I think.

  480. ralphm

    Guus to be removed, too, and Jonas to stay

  481. ralphm

    With the administrativa out of the way, I'll repeat my thanks from above.

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  483. arc

    I just received the welcome email

  484. ralphm

    Oddly, it appears that we can appoint a new Director to fill the vacancy.

  485. ralphm

    (Bylaws, 4.7)

  486. arc

    Does anyone have any nominations?

  487. Kev

    Are able to, but not obliged, I believe. So no hurry. If I read this right.

  488. ralphm

    Yes "may be filled"

  489. dwd

    Yeah, I'd rather think about this one.

  490. ralphm

    Ok, let's take that to next week to ponder on

  491. ralphm

    3. GSoC

  492. arc

    I was going to fill out the application yesterday and decided best to wait for the board meeting

  493. ralphm

    The date of application is today, right?

  494. arc


  495. ralphm

    It appears there's appetite for it, so I move we apply.

  496. arc

    I'll second that

  497. dwd

    Yes, I'm happy to if we can - do we have the infra/support?

  498. arc

    We risk little and there's still a lot to gain

  499. arc

    I'm happy to admin. I've not been asked by any other organization

  500. ralphm

    Thanks arc

  501. Kev

    I’m happy to be named as the second admin, assuming that’s needed, but can’t practically promise large amounts of time for it.

  502. ralphm

    Kev: thanks!

  503. Kev

    (Or anyone else can be, I’m not precious ;))

  504. emus

    (Im happy to announce things in Newsletter and where else I can if necessary)

  505. ralphm

    Motion carries. Arc, please complete the application.

  506. arc


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  508. ralphm

    4. Outreachy

  509. arc

    I think it's important to also start running outreachy, even if we only start with one student.

  510. dwd

    Yes, that sounds like a positive thing to do.

  511. ralphm

    I agree. I suppose we can evaluate the number of candidates to take on against a budget?

  512. Kev

    I suggest, although I know I’m in a minority, that it’s cleanest to ask for sponsorship for the XSF’s participation in Outreachy explicitly. I won’t argue it further (this year) if people disagree. I think it’s a positive thing to do.

  513. Kev

    I suggest, although I know I’m in a minority, that it’s cleanest to ask for sponsorship for the XSF’s participation in Outreachy explicitly. I won’t argue it further (this year) if people disagree. I think it’s (Outreachy) a positive thing to do.

  514. ralphm

    Kev: I'm not sure why you are in a minority, I think it is a great idea.

  515. arc

    Yeah we can. And I agree with Kev, plus it's good to keep looking for new sponsorships.

  516. arc

    I already started making the connections to get XSF involved

  517. ralphm

    Taking arc's earlier thinking as a motion to which we agreed, let's also participate in Outreachy.

  518. arc


  519. ralphm

    +1, also to GSoc, for the record

  520. arc


  521. ralphm

    5. Date of Next

  522. ralphm

    It appears that this slot doesn't work well.

  523. ralphm

    Now everybody is on the list, can you please suggest times (in UTC) that would work for you, so we can pick a common one?

  524. arc

    A different day or would you rather meet in the morning europe time?

  525. dwd

    Either, really.

  526. ralphm

    Well, this is Friday 18:00 for me, so meh. Any other time is likely better.

  527. dwd

    Last thing on Friday is either panic at work or I've managed to knock off early and now have to come back.

  528. ralphm


  529. arc

    How about Thursday same time?

  530. dwd

    That works better for me.

  531. ralphm

    I have a recurring meeting at that time

  532. arc

    Wednesday same time?

  533. ralphm


  534. Zash

    right after council meeting?

  535. ralphm


  536. ralphm

    That's a bonus to me

  537. dwd

    That would be perfect.

  538. ralphm


  539. ralphm

    6. AOB

  540. arc

    When is council meeting? Will that cause trouble with daylight savings

  541. ralphm

    an hour before

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  544. ralphm

    I've moved the calendar item, and we'll see about DST when/before we get there

  545. dwd

    arc, Council is pinned to European time for daylight savings changes.

  546. ralphm

    If there's isn't any other business? (TTL: 30 s)

  547. dwd

    None from me.

  548. arc

    That sounds like it will cause a problem or four

  549. arc

    But fine for now. We just need to keep those dates in mind

  550. ralphm


  551. ralphm

    7. Close

  552. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  553. ralphm bangs gavel

  554. ralphm


  555. dwd

    Thanks Kev, I have your test.

  556. arc


  557. ralphm

    I sent the previous messages again

  558. Kev

    dwd/arc: Fab.

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  560. SamWhited

    Hi all, sorry I wasn't around for the time slot this week, but I've been trying to get the idea of the XSF acting as a fiscal sponsor for projects (ie. taking tax-free donations on behalf of them) on the agenda for a few weeks. Is there a better way that I should be doing that?

  561. Zash

    SamWhited: I suppose the way is to poke someone who can add it to the agenda trello

  562. SamWhited

    Zash: I *think* that's what I've been doing for the last few weeks (assuming board members have trello access). Is there someone specific who manages that? ralphm?

  563. Zash

    I would have thought yelling loudly enoug here would do the trick

  564. SamWhited

    To be fair, one week the board meeting didn't happen. The week before I might have been too late, so maybe this is the first week it could have happened. Either way, it would be good to get it on the agenda.

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  568. arc

    Kev what years did we participate in gsoc?

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  573. arc

    It looks like 2012 2014 2015 2016 2017...

  574. flow

    arc, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GSoC

  575. arc

    How many students do we get last year?

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  583. arc

    The above URL just says n/a but I need to answer how many students we got and how many were successful

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  590. arc

    Kev, ?

  591. arc

    Flow, ?

  592. arc

    Did everyone just fall asleep?

  593. Zash

    food coma?

  594. arc

    I don't see anything on the mailing list for last year.

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  599. Zash

    Check https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/?p=h#2020 around relevant gsoc dates?

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  602. arc

    Flow, you were also going to be back up admin right?

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  606. Zash

    ping larma

  607. vanitasvitae

    Last year we had two students?

  608. vanitasvitae

    Or 3?

  609. vanitasvitae

    We had Aditya and Wolfie afair

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  611. Zash

    1 or 2 slots were requested according to https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2020-04-16?p=h#2020-04-16-742c6584719ec1f4

  612. vanitasvitae

    Yeah, we had two

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  614. vanitasvitae

    Just checked the newsletter post announcing the results: https://xmpp.org/2020/08/newsletter-06-august/

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  622. larma

    arc: I can also co-admin if necessary

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  630. emus

    vanitasvitae: 😍 Yes, in the newsletter!1!!

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  634. arc

    Larma I'm not familiar by this name, how long have you been part of the XSF?

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  637. arc

    I literally have six minutes to get a second admin signed up

  638. moparisthebest

    arc, dino dev, long time

  639. arc

    Ok email address?

  640. Kev

    Sorry arc, was eating curry.

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  642. arc

    Kev, you need to respond to the invite very very soon

  643. arc

    5 minutes to sign up

  644. arc

    Everything else has been completed

  645. Zash

    DAWN OF THE FINal wait it's evening here.

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  647. Kev

    Apparently you want me to be an admin for Arc Riley. I was expecting for the XSF :D

  648. arc

    It doesn't matter what the email says you need to respond and finish the application

  649. Kev

    (I’m doing it, BTW)

  650. Kev

    Urgh. I don’t know how many times I’ve been a mentor. Blah.

  651. Zash

    Dice roll it

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  654. arc

    2 minutes

  655. arc

    Say five

  656. Zash


  657. Kev

    Arc: Have I done enough?

  658. arc


  659. arc


  660. Kev

    That was a little Last Minute :)

  661. Kev

    I went with 8, FWIW, although I think the number is higher.

  662. arc

    That's why I was going to do the application yesterday, but then decided to wait

  663. arc

    Honestly I don't think they're even going to look at that

  664. arc

    It is kind of ridiculous to ask for the slot allocation and success of students for every previous year

  665. arc

    A lot of times I just put in dummy numbers

  666. arc

    But yeah the application is 100% complete

  667. Kev

    I have always answered as completely and accurately as I could. And usually regretted the amount of effort finding out :)

  668. arc

    And thank you for the heads up, in my rush I just put my own name instead of the org name. Fixed now.

  669. Kev

    Thanks for getting this done.

  670. arc

    Okay we can continue to collect ideas on the wiki, we will find out if we are accepted on March 9th

  671. arc

    Honestly I stopped mentoring for gsoc a few years ago, I think it was the year that I was doing student selections during my dad's funeral. But I was a student last year for python so..

  672. arc

    Something for which the Google staff were like "Ummm..." 😂

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  675. Kev

    Heh. It’s been the XSF’s policy in the past to not give places to existing devs (with the one exception, I think, of a young Kevin Smith back in 2006) :)

  676. arc

    I was not mentor for python for many years. Though I did select the current org admin and had barbecue at her house the week before I applied

  677. arc

    But my project was specific to improving python's org admin web interface so it fit

  678. Kev

    Actually, I think we accepted someone who was an existing dev another year, more recently, but we selected them as our bottom option, on the advice of Google. They gave us the slot anyway.

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  686. arc

    I think that we are far too selective. When you look at the other org, especially the academic ones, their criteria is basically "my favorite student who I already know and see on a daily basis"

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  689. arc

    And I am very glad that I applied last year, because the income from the program kept me paying rent during covid-19

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  692. MattJ

    Sorry for missing the meeting. As Dave noted, it's a difficult time slot (I recognise other time slots are equally difficult for others)

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  703. Kev

    arc: Your programme this year. My rules don’t have to apply ;) I do think that our previous efforts to try to select new people and bring them into the community, rather than people already in were well intended, and the existence of people who abuse the system to pay their favourites doesn’t mean we should. But if you want different selection criterions ( :) ), go for it.

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  712. Daniel

    I guess it vastly depends on your goals. Produce mergable code? Bring new people into the community?

  713. Kev

    (In case that was unclear, I wasn’t implying the PSF was doing that when they picked you!)

  714. Kev

    Daniel: The stated goal of GSoC was to bring in new developers, so that’s what I (tried to) optimised for.

  715. Daniel

    And I think it's also worthwhile to review how well the past strategies have worked to achieve those goals

  716. Kev

    From my point of view, Arc knows what he’s doing, and can do more or less what he wants and I’m not going to be particularly vocal in complaining :)

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  720. Daniel

    Oh I'm not trying to influence Arcs decision making

  721. arc

    I tried to do that too but if a existing developer needs the cash and qualifies by being student, and participating will help them produce more code over the summer, I don't see a problem with it.

  722. Kev

    arc: I’m not trying to imply you’re wrong. Simply different

  723. Kev

    …to how I approached it.

  724. arc

    Oh no we are in agreement, GSoC works best when we are getting new people involved. But again, I don't think to a exclusion of existing developers who otherwise qualify

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  730. arc

    Generally speaking, existing developers need little or no mentoring. In most cases they end up mentoring other students without intending to.

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  732. Kev

    It’s also not a thing that’s come up very often.

  733. Kev

    (For us)

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  738. arc


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  811. lovetox

    hm is urn:xmpp:features:rosterver only in stream features?

  812. lovetox

    or do server also add this to account and domain disco info?

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  815. Zash

    Prosody just does the stream feature at least.

  816. Zash

    Not seeing anything but https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6121.html#rfc.section.2.6.1 mentioning that

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  821. lovetox

    ok thanks Zash

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  994. emus

    arc: larma did mentor on GSoC at least twice, too

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  998. emus

    @board Can we try to make the application process next year not that rushing? Willing to help

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  1001. emus

    @board Can we try to make the application process next year not that rushing close to the deadline? Willing to help

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