XSF Discussion - 2021-03-22

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  357. MattJ Just got off a 2h debugging session, where the root cause turned out to be the client using origin-id where it should have been using stanza-id
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  360. Ge0rG waves with the "told you so" stamp
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  367. Zash And what is the point of @id == origin-id/@id for normal chat messages?
  368. mdosch admits to don't know (yet) what's the difference between those IDs.
  369. MattJ Just pretend origin-id doesn't exist, and join the campaign to have it removed from the XEP :)
  370. Sam ⤴️
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  372. Zash Look at this and tell me, for each byte, why you really need it: ```xml <message type='chat' to='zash@recv.example' from='foo@sender.example/c' id='ceb792ed-e033-4e2d-8e00-c01dbc2e7673' xml:lang='en'> <body>Test</body> <request xmlns='urn:xmpp:receipts'/> <markable xmlns='urn:xmpp:chat-markers:0'/> <origin-id id='ceb792ed-e033-4e2d-8e00-c01dbc2e7673' xmlns='urn:xmpp:sid:0'/> <active xmlns='http://jabber.org/protocol/chatstates'/> <stanza-id id='BsxtFkWgYn1TCs5c' xmlns='urn:xmpp:sid:0' by='zash@recv.example'/> <delay xmlns='urn:xmpp:delay' stamp='2021-03-22T12:47:00Z' from='recv.example'/> </message> ```
  373. Link Mauve :|
  374. flow mdosch, those are not two IDs, there could be multiple <stanza-id/> elements, for example one from the user's archive and one from the MUCs archive
  375. flow and <origin-id/> is simply the ID the entity where the stanza originated from assigned
  376. mdosch 🤔
  377. MattJ and 'id' is what?
  378. mdosch Ok, I think I go for 'pretend it doesn't exist' until I have time to thoroughly look at this.
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  380. Zash mod_if_id_eq_origin_id_then_remove_it
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  384. Kev I also don’t see why origin ID can’t be a stanza ID stamped by the originator :)
  385. flow Kev, to avoid leaking the JID
  386. flow consider a semi-anonymous MUC for example
  387. Kev Or a stanza-id with no originator, then :) But yes, I’d forgotten about that.
  388. flow Kev, allowing <stanza-id/> without by attribute would complicate the rules for <stanza-id/> validation
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  391. Ge0rG Can we just get rid of origin-id and pretend it never existed?
  392. jonas’ et ceterum censeo origin-id delendam esse?
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  422. larma As someone asked what 'id' attribute is for, here is the RFC: > The 'id' attribute is used by the originating entity to track any response or error stanza that it might receive in relation to the generated stanza from another entity (such as an intermediate server or the intended recipient). > It is up to the originating entity whether the value of the 'id' attribute is unique only within its current stream or unique globally. > For <message/> and <presence/> stanzas, it is RECOMMENDED for the originating entity to include an 'id' attribute; for <iq/> stanzas, it is REQUIRED.
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  428. Link Mauve For messages, 0045 adds the requirement that “The [MUC] service SHOULD reflect the message with the same 'id' that was generated by the client, to allow clients to track their outbound messages.”
  429. larma Which was only added later and may be in conflict with RFC
  430. larma Which was only added "recently" and may be in conflict with RFC
  431. Ge0rG larma: what's the "current stream" in an s2s context?
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  433. larma Hard to say. But in RFC terms, the originator of a broadcasted MUC message clearly is the MUC service
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  436. Ge0rG larma: and it could "open" a new "stream" for each message
  437. larma I'd be tempted to argue that a stream goes from sender ('from') to recipient ('to'), at least that would make sense in this context because every intermediary is allowed to send errors up to the recipient
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  439. larma But how does it match error messages then?
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  444. Ge0rG larma: when a stream goes between the respective JIDs, any implementation that eventually re-uses IDs is incompliant, because the stream exists as long as the JIDs exist
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  448. larma Ge0rG, huh? I can just not reuse the id with a single recipient but reuse with another recipient
  449. larma i.e. sending <message id="1" to="a@example.org" /> and <message id="2" to="a@example.org" /> would then be allowed because any error message could still be matched
  450. larma i.e. sending <message id="1" to="a@example.org" /> and <message id="1" to="b@example.org" /> would then be allowed because any error message could still be matched
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  452. Ge0rG larma: not what I'm taking about. You may never reuse an ID to a given recipient because you don't know if they did restart in the meantime
  453. larma yes, that's true
  454. larma except if you change your JID of course 😉
  455. Ge0rG Well, welcome random non persistent resource identifiers!
  456. Zash Something something (kind, id, to, from) unique, or somesuch.
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  458. larma yeah, except that MUCs don't use random resource identifiers so they can't guarantee uniqueness on that pair when forwarding an incoming message.
  459. Zash And errors have to/from flipped. Easy. What we talking about?
  460. Ge0rG So the RFC can't be followed in any sensible form and we should change it
  461. Zash larma, still applies to the full JID pairs, does it not?
  462. larma Ge0rG, why?
  463. Ge0rG larma: my point is that any implementation that will rely on id never repeating will have been broken a long time ago
  464. Zash on s2s?
  465. larma Ge0rG, ehm, don't we see issues with clients when any other client do it repeatedly?
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  467. Ge0rG Because in practice, client implementations were considering a stream as their connection, and used an auto increment for IDs, and that caused repetition issues at all recipients
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  469. Ge0rG larma: only on receiving clients that think a "stream" is something eternal and persistent
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  471. larma in practice we have XEPs that by design would break should ids be reused.
  472. larma we just workaround by making them use origin-id
  473. Zash If you do that, do you break anything but yourself (the client)
  474. Zash If you do that, do you break anything but yourself (the client)?
  475. larma you typically break the recipient client 😉
  476. Ge0rG larma: an evil client will break you by sending repeated origin-id. You haven't solved anything, you just limited the problem to pidgin.
  477. larma it's not about evil clients, it's about standard compliant clients
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  479. Ge0rG Except that pidgin won't send origin-id so it's exactly the status quo, but with one more useless xml element
  480. Zash What if the MUC just renumbers all the messages, but includes the origin-id in the reflection back to the sender (and only to them)
  481. Ge0rG Zash: what if MUC renumbers all the messages but the one sent to the original sending client?
  482. Ge0rG But also what if the client gets reconnected between sending the message and getting the reflection?
  483. larma Ge0rG, the original client wouldn't know the MUCs message id 😉
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  485. larma Let's just agree that MUC is just a bunch of hacks and undefined behavior
  486. Ge0rG What if we stop relying on message id being unique except for purposes of reflection tracking?
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  489. larma You mean as it's described in the RFC?
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  491. Ge0rG Should a client be able to send a correction to a message that's still in flight?
  492. Zash Bring back "last" message correction
  493. Zash Or should we finally go ahead and mandate all IDs be HMAC(stream-id, stanza counter) ?
  494. Ge0rG Zash: have the server rewrite any client ID into this format!
  495. Zash Yes
  496. Ge0rG With eternal tracking, of course
  497. Zash Plus the client can know AOT what id messages will have
  498. Zash Didn't we invent this at every summit?
  499. Ge0rG Zash: yes, and I liked it every time
  500. Ge0rG Let's make it part of XMPP 2.0
  501. Ge0rG But then it won't prove that the ID is really unique to other servers.
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  503. Ge0rG So we don't gain anything in the presence of malicious servers.
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  506. Zash "Don't write malicious servers"
  507. Ge0rG Except that you could terminate s2s to a server that sends repeating IDs
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  511. Zash Make every entity on the path attach their own ƒ(stream-id, counter)! Seal it with crypto, no, blockchain!
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  514. Ge0rG Zash: but then we reuse the counter from 0198, only to realize that it'll wrap around at 2^31
  515. Zash `<reset xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-streams'/>`, bye
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  534. deuill (I'm sure the above is tongue-in-cheek but) unique message IDs are useful for threading/message attaching/reactions/etc. as well, right?
  535. deuill I seem to remember the original RFCs saying IDs SHOULD be globally unique, though I might be wrong.
  536. Ge0rG deuill: yes. Any modern client will send globally unique IDs anyway
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  538. Zash Twice. And then the MUC adds another. And some timestamps on that.
  539. deuill Hm, what's to prevent clients from sending duplicates?
  540. deuill Oh right yeah.
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  542. Ge0rG deuill: larma quoted the RFC one and a bit hours ago
  543. deuill Yeah I think Dino not doing MAM-MUC bit me there
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  545. deuill Or is it MUC-MAM
  546. Ge0rG deuill: an evil client can do whatever it wants. A broken client will make other clients break some functionality
  547. Ge0rG MAM is always using the server generated IDs. Luckily, servers will never misbehave
  548. Zash True fact. Servers are perfect.
  549. deuill Praise be!
  550. Zash Trust in the server. The server is good.
  551. deuill What if we just did away with clients altogether and just had the servers talk to one another
  552. mdosch To protect and serve?
  553. Zash YES
  554. Zash As a bonus we then get a pure p2p system
  555. Ge0rG Zash: "server" is a discriminatory word, because serving is an implication of involuntary labor.
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  557. deuill Having worked at a cafe in Greece, I can attest to that
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  559. Zash Ge0rG: What, you don't tip your servers?
  560. Ge0rG Zash: xmp2p!
  561. Ge0rG Zash: no, I master them.
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  566. deuill Please don't tip your servers, the hard drives will thank you
  567. Ge0rG Hard drives have been forbidden a long time ago, because of the IDE Master Slave jumped
  568. Ge0rG Hard drives have been forbidden a long time ago, because of the IDE Master Slave jumper
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