-
arc
Ralphm are you going to send an email to the board list?
-
ralphm
Again?
-
jonas’
moparisthebest, what did you dooooooooooo
-
ralphm
That RFC on TLS 1.0/1.1 depreciation weirdly references 3920 and not 6120. I guess I need to put in an erratum.
-
jonas’
21:10:12 flow> L29Ah, right, but it's not rocket science i'd say :) it is not... it is SOCKET SCIENCE!!
-
jonas’
(also, good morning, have some coffee everyone)
-
ralphm
Ooooh
-
ralphm
FWIW, I recently had to debug TCP keepalives in combination with unexpectedly dropped connections (not XMPP), and it is weird and hard.
-
Kev
Well, at least jonas’ has ensured today isn’t a total loss.
-
ralphm
For sure
-
Zash
Did someone say coffee?
-
Kev
Covfefe
-
edhelas
https://nlnet.nl/project/Movim-OMEMO/
-
edhelas
:)
-
edhelas
i'll do some official communications soon™
-
Neustradamus
About RFCs, some people think that it is not needed to list all linked RFCs, only one... I have done several remarks about current I-Ds.
-
Neustradamus
Sam ^
-
Daniel
edhelas: congrats. Pretty cool that we now have at least 5 projects supported by nlnet/ngi.zero
-
emus
edhelas: N e w s l e t t e r 😀
-
dwd
It'd be good to do some Twitter [etc] announcements here, too.
-
emus
Daniel: yeah I thought so too
-
eric
edhelas: Which OMEMO version do you aim for? Older one for compat or like Kaidan the latest version?
-
edhelas
eric the old one yes :)
-
edhelas
i'm starting with the basics
-
arc
Who do we have for the board meeting?
-
MattJ
o/
-
arc
Two of us!
-
Zash
That's quorum?
-
arc
Is it 50% or 51%?
-
arc
I mean I'm sure we're going to get a third person. At least Ralph. Though I would really hope we get everyone today since we have not had a meeting in a month
- ralphm bangs gavel
-
ralphm
0. Welcome + Agenda
-
ralphm
Hi!
-
ralphm
Who do we have and do you have any agenda items?
-
arc
o/
-
ralphm
MattJ should be around still. dwd?
-
MattJ
I'm here, and I have an agenda item... muc.xmpp.org moderation stuff
-
ralphm
noted
-
ralphm
Ok, it seems no dwd today.
-
ralphm
1. Minute taker
-
ralphm
I think MattJ is up
-
MattJ
ok
-
ralphm
2. muc.xmpp.org moderation
-
ralphm
Take it away
-
MattJ
Ok, the background is that operators@muc.xmpp.org, the venue we provide and promote as a place for XMPP service operators to gather and communicate, has become something of a centre point for a section of the broader XMPP community
-
MattJ
By broader I mean, beyond people typically involved in standards development within the XSF
- ralphm nods
-
MattJ
It's well over 100 occupants these days, and a recent event/drama involving a few individuals blew up into a moderation nightmare
-
MattJ
Currently it's just you and me as owners there (probably because we're admins of the MUC service), and I don't really have time to dedicate to properly keeping the channel civil when things like that occur (which as the community continues to grow, probably will increase in frequency)
-
MattJ
I got criticised by both sides of the fall-out for the moderation actions I did take (banning a few people, and revoking voice for non-members for a period of time)
-
MattJ
What's missing:
-
MattJ
1) More admins to help out
-
MattJ
2) Clear guidelines as to what is and isn't accepted behaviour
-
dwd
Hiya, sorry I'm late.
-
ralphm
Well,
-
MattJ
I have at least one person who is willing to volunteer as a moderator, but only if we have (2) in place
-
ralphm
(hi dwd)
-
Kev
You’re referring essentially to a CoC aren’t you?
-
MattJ
Kev, you said it, not me... :)
-
dwd
I think setting up AUPs for xmpp.org is sensible.
-
MattJ
In this particular instance, I specifically want to solve the operators@ issue, because that's been the biggest difficulty recently
-
Sam
From the peanut gallery: I am also willing to help moderate (but only if we actually write a CoC or similar regulations that I can follow. I am also willing to help write those. I suspect others would be willing to volunteer for both as well.)
-
ralphm
First off: the operators@xmpp.org mailinglist and operators@muc.xmpp.org are hosted by us as a gift to the community. With MattJ as ED, you can basically moderate how you see fit.
-
MattJ
But I don't know how much sense it makes to have guidelines for one channel but not for others on muc.xmpp.org
-
arc
I agree
-
Kev
About >< this much sense, I think.
-
Sam
sense: 1px;
-
MattJ
Which then follows to the question of whether we want guidelines for all XSF discussion venues in general, because we notably have none right now
-
Kev
(although the guidelines could potentially be different for XSF vs non-XSF rooms I guess)
-
ralphm
I'd summarize guidelines as: a) Be civil, b) stay on topic, particularly when asked.
-
arc
We still have the code of conduct, don't we? It was seem fairly straightforward to use that for everything in person and online
-
ralphm
I don't recall the XSF ever drafting or accepting an explicit CoC.
-
Kev
Nor me.
-
MattJ
I'm not aware of any CoC, if there is such a thing then the whole issue is hopefully solved
-
arc
Ugh. Well let's switch the topic to that then because we really do need one
-
Sam
Might I recommend starting from: https://www.contributor-covenant.org/
-
MattJ
Yeah, that pretty much is the topic I think
-
arc
We just had a big discussion about that on FOSS foundations. StPeter I think was involved in that discussion
-
arc
2020-2021 has been the time for all the foundations to get a coc worked out
-
MattJ
My main problem is that I'm uneasy with the drama that has followed CoC adoption at many of the other FOSS orgs
-
Kev
I don’t think that’s unreasonable. Equally though, without a CoC (and enforcement), you’re open to all sorts of other drama.
-
arc
Recently?
-
MattJ
I'm not saying that's a reason not to have a CoC, but (at least from my perspective, which may well not be universal), we've not had problems in the community that a CoC would be needed to address
-
ralphm
I am not sure how to coherently put this in a few sentences, but let me try this. I admire the concept of CoCs in general, but I've seen the downsides of them in practice, too. Particularly the enforcement part. Either it is not (consistently) done, or the people doing it find it draining and don't want to do it (anymore). I think that was also partially what the FOSS Foundations thread was about.
-
ralphm
And what MattJ said
-
Kev
MattJ: That’s fair. I don’t think we’re immune so much as lucky, though.
-
MattJ
And yes, the issue of enforcement is very much tangled up in this - it's very well to say something, but handling actual violations correctly is extremely hard
-
MattJ
Kev, I agree
-
Kev
If we had a CoC, we would have to enforce it. If we enforce it it will be very expensive (in effort/attention) if it’s ever needed.
-
MattJ
(but operators@ recently crossed the line, I think the luck ends here)
-
Kev
And given that it would presumably cover some moderate traffic MUCs...
-
Kev
I’m intruiged by the operators@ stuff now, but I guess that’s a story for another time.✎ -
Kev
I’m intriged by the operators@ stuff now, but I guess that’s a story for another time.✎ ✏ -
Kev
I’m intrigued by the operators@ stuff now, but I guess that’s a story for another time. ✏
-
ralphm
I haven't followed the operators@ issue, and cannot comment on how that crossed a line and whether drastic measures are required as a result, though.
-
dwd
As I say, I think bringing in a written policy of some form would be sensible. A CoC is clearly part of that. I will commit to writing more in detail on the board@ list this week.
-
MattJ
As far as I'm concerned that issue is dealt with, but I don't want it to happen again
-
ralphm
dwd: thanks
-
MattJ
Thanks dwd
-
MattJ
The document Sam linked seems pretty decent
-
jonas’
as someone who was somewhat caught up in the turmoil in operators@: yes, some rules for that MUC are definitely a good idea.✎ -
ralphm
MattJ in the mean time, I'm happy for you to appoint deputies as moderators. But note that my happiness is not a requirement, you have executive power on this.
-
jonas’
as someone who was somewhat caught in the turmoil in operators@: yes, some rules for that MUC are definitely a good idea. ✏
-
MattJ
Sure. But so far all volunteers want some rules/guidelines in place before helping out
-
MattJ
Which is understandable
-
ralphm
Can we start with the very short ones I listed above?
-
dwd
I am willing to actively work on the rules, guidelines, policies, and so on.
-
Sam
If you need help before then, I suppose I'd be willing as long as I knew we were moving towards having a CoC. I am also willing to actively work on them too.
-
arc
I have always said that the best coat of conduct are about the playfield and not the fence. Instead of focusing on behavior we don't want to see, it should focus on the behavior that we want to exemplify
-
ralphm
arc: right, that's why I tried to phrase my very short two guidelines accordingly.
-
ralphm
(As an example, I had to look for it for a bit, I came across this: https://jan-krueger.net/mincoc/)
-
arc
No that's really not good. Way to subjective. Some of the worst CoC are like "Be Excellent To Each Other"
-
Zash
I'm a fan of the code of "what would MattJ say", it's worked very well in the Prosody channel. :)
-
MattJ
So it looks like we're in agreement about an organization-wide document, and dwd has offered to write some initial stuff up on-list
-
arc
As an organization made almost entirely of white men, the CoC really needs to set up a foundation for expanding that. Including addressing behavior that we are otherwise blind to.
-
ralphm
arc: I understand that point, but I've also witnessed a lot of drama over explicit CoCs like the PSF's in 2019.
-
moparisthebest
ugh wild assumptions, or I missed the "race and gender" column when filling out my XSF application
-
arc
Yeah I was a back-end contributor on that and most of the people who were creating drama were the people the code of conduct were created to address
-
arc
Moparisbest I said most.
-
Sam
I have data about this somewhere if I can dig it up, as far as participating members go that's not an assumption.
-
moparisthebest
I don't even know how you could possibly know "most"
-
Sam
It was 95.something% of active members, IIRC
-
MattJ
I've no idea how or why you have such data...
-
Sam
(based on self identification, I can't remember the sample size compared to the entire XSF)
-
moparisthebest
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/index.php?search=race&title=Special%3ASearch&go=Go https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/index.php?search=gender&title=Special%3ASearch&go=Go only some "race conditions" stuff
-
Sam
I tried to do a survey a few years ago that I thought would be helpful in understanding the state of the XSF. I wanted to keep doing it every year, but the results weren't very useful the first year because of the lack of diversity. I should have kept doing it so that I could track if that changed
-
moparisthebest
let's not make up problems where they don't exist
-
Daniel
Not to derail this discussion but I would really like to see a more diverse group of people. But I'm not sure if employing a CoC will do a lot to help in this regard
-
ralphm
I think a lot of good points were raised here, and I think it is good for the discussion to continue. For this board meeting, though, I suggest we let dwd indeed start drafting, and end the meeting in light of time.
-
Daniel
It obviously won't hurt either
-
MattJ
As far as I'm concerned the CoC and diversity (or lack thereof) are two different issues
-
moparisthebest
^
-
arc
I would say it absolutely would help, as someone who mentored a female who did join the XSF and did not renew, and found that the organization was rather off-putting.
-
moparisthebest
in that case I find the XSF's blatant anti-GPL stance very offputting, I want an entire chapter in the CoC dedicated to being inclusive to GPL advocates
-
moparisthebest
or... you know, just make it about behavior alone and not
-
Sam
They're not the same issue, but there is some overlap. A visible CoC that's enforced can make some people feel comfortable applying when they otherwise wouldn't, or deter the people who would harras them from applying. Both are at least somewhat beneficial.
-
dwd
moparisthebest, What anti-GPL stance?
-
MattJ
Seconded ralphm's motion to end the meeting :)
-
arc
Third
-
MattJ
I have a headache and need to move on with my evening
-
ralphm
3. Date of Next +1 W 4. Close Thanks all! /me bangs gavel
-
arc
I am sitting in a parking lot in my car waiting to pick up a prescription 😂
-
MattJ
Thanks ralphm, I'll aim to get minutes out tomorrow
-
dwd
I am rebooting random databases while trying to fix software.
-
ralphm
Please continue discussing, of course.
-
Sam
dwd: if you need help on any of this, feel free to ping me. I am happy to just be a researcher, to help draft, to help come up with a policy for enforcement, etc. whatever you need.
-
dwd
Sam, I'll certainly ask your advice.
-
moparisthebest
to be clear I was being sarcastic to make a point, I don't want a section in the CoC about GPL any more than "we promise to be extra nice to X people"
-
arc
moparisthebest: I have found that to be true as well, and I am also very much pro AGPL myself. But thats not really what a code of conduct is for.
-
arc
Ah ok.
-
Sam
I am no expert, this isn't something I've been directly involved in at other organizations, but I do have hands and an internet connection and can make a few spare cycles :)
-
moparisthebest
right, I don't know why the CoC needs to group people at all
-
Daniel
AGPL? That's the worst GPL
-
Sam
Not sure if sarcastic ⤴️, but I agree
-
arc
Exactly. And I am perfectly fine with you sharing your opinion on that. But it also don't feel all that comfortable sharing personal details here either, including my preferred pronouns
-
arc
And we know that there are female members who use male names and don't feel comfortable with their gender being known
-
moparisthebest
see I think the AGPL is the only license worth using period, I'm feeling very outnumbered and unwelcomed (last part again is sarcasm, I don't feel unwelcome :P)
-
Sam
Right; jokes aside, the difference is that GPL users aren't a historically marginalized group that are frequently targeted because of something that's a part of their identity.
-
Sam
Using the GPL is a choice that anyone may or may not make.
-
arc
I know for a fact that we have one transgender member who has been very clear that they don't want this known.
-
arc
+1 Sam
-
dwd
arc, FWIW, I assume people's preferred pronouns are "they/them" until I'm corrected. It solves a lot of embarrassment.
-
arc
That's good because those are my preferred pronouns 😅
-
moparisthebest
I prefer to address people by whatever they chose by pressing "tab" :)
-
arc
And of course we have not even breached the topic of race
-
arc
I'm not saying that the community is toxic by any stretch, or that CoC is 100% vital, or any of that. In fact I mis-remembered that I worked on the CoC a few years ago. It must have been a different organization
-
arc
But as much as forming a CoC can create drama, it can also invite broader, more diverse participation. There has been a ton of drama in many large FOSS organizations but each of them that went through this came out more diverse and more inclusive
-
Sam
Entirely anecdotal, but at the like 2 places I've been where creating a CoC caused drama, the people getting all mad about a CoC were the same people that had previously been moderated and used the excuse "But it's not written down anywhere, how am I supposed to know that what I did was against the rules?". I try to assume good faith most of the time, but I have a hard time with at least those examples.
-
Kev
Sam: I’m not going to disagree with that, but I think it’s also worth not discounting that there may be drama because of such a thing, and that it might be draining for those involved.
-
Sam
Oh yes, absolutely. There was still drama, never-the-less.
-
Kev
I don’t think we have many active members within the XSF itself who are likely to cause large amounts of drama over this, but a) I could be wrong and b) I wouldn’t like to swear it’d be 0.
-
Kev
(I’m assuming that disagreement != drama. I have no doubt whatever’s proposed will see lots of Discussion :) )
-
arc
I think it's less about problems, than lack of participation. When a lot of new people get involved with an organization, and they go through the phase of figuring out what the group is all about, they are also evaluating whether it's a group they want to be part of
-
arc
My student didn't have anyone say or do anything to her. It was more about what they didn't say or do. Which goes back to what I was saying about a good code of conduct should be about what we want to see, not rules for what's not allowed
-
Zash
The September phase, yes.
-
Kev
September phase?
-
Daniel
I believe part of the problem is that we don't know who we are
-
arc
She also found it incredibly difficult to get involved with Prosody. I don't think anyone ever followed up with her, even though she came in with a lot of energy and excitement.
-
Kev
I am Kev, the Dragonborn.
-
Daniel
and what we do and stand for
-
Zash
From the chaos phase at the start of school years. Especially https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September
-
Daniel
(not we as individuals obviously but we as an organization)
-
Kev
I do as little as possible, and I stand for less firm people on the bus.
-
Kev
I don’t actually disagree, despite the flippancy.
-
Daniel
and if we say "we" are we talking about the community or of the organization
-
Kev
Zash: Ah.
-
moparisthebest
I think we stand for something to do with xmpp standards ?
-
moparisthebest
it's either that or bike shed construction for sure
-
arc
I have the paint samples ready whenever you want to look over the options
-
Zash
Let's build a snowman^W bike shed!
-
emus
I haven't been part of the situation. May someone shortly recap what happened?
-
Zash
🎵️ we can paint it $color let's build a bikeshed 🎶️
-
moparisthebest
tl;dr someone found a MUC they didn't like on a popular server, came to operators to demand it be banned, popular-server-operator didn't want to ban it, accusations of various political affiliations flew, along with threats to blacklist S2S with certain servers, and file legal actions all around and at search.jabber.network
-
L29Ah
lol
-
Zash
If the pandemic ever ends, building an actual bike shed does seem like an interesting team-building exercise.
-
MattJ
arc, sorry to hear that they had difficulty with contributing to Prosody. I can confidently say this is not due to anyone's race, gender or identity... and is not an issue that a CoC would solve. More that we are an open-source project with just a couple of volunteer devs and basically no resources for community management and outreach.
-
L29Ah
i identify myself as community mismanager
-
arc
MattJ: it was one of my students in one of her first attempts to contribute to FOSS. I don't know exactly what she did or tried, but she felt ignored.
-
arc
This is feedback not a complaint. The same has been said about me and the projects I manage in the past
-
MattJ
We struggle to keep on top of incoming feature requests and patches, it's a known issue and we're always trying to improve
-
arc
The same could be said for all of us, absolutely
-
Zash
While also trying to not get burnt out
-
MattJ
But we have high priority issues that need attention in what time we do have, and it's hard to strike a balance
-
Zash
But it could just as well have been poor timeing, since both MattJ and I live in euro-time. It does happen that people show up in the middle of the night and ask about things, and nobody is awake to answer.✎ -
Zash
But it could just as well have been poor timing, since both MattJ and I live in euro-time. It does happen that people show up in the middle of the night and ask about things, and nobody is awake to answer. ✏
-
Zash
PSA: Gonna roll out that new OpenSSL, there may be a short service disruption.
-
arc
I think she's trying to reach out through GitHub or something
-
arc
She was. This is many years ago while she was a freshman in college
-
Zash
Github...
-
MattJ
We're not even on Github)
-
MattJ
Well, we are, but 99% of the project isn't
-
Zash
I feared this was going to be one of those "why aren't you on github yet"
-
MattJ
There is however a clone of our repo on Github made by someone that is always having PRs filed against it
-
arc
I am also not generally a GitHub user for exactly that reason
-
arc
I do not allow forks on GitHub for any of my projects unless they are explicitly renamed to avoid confusion. Every few months I have to search for any confusingly named forks to check for that
-
Zash
Is that a thing you can do?
-
Zash
I thought forks and pull requests were the only things that couldn't be disabled
-
MattJ
Presumably with the co-operation of the owner
-
emus
moparisthebest: thanks for tldr
-
arc
Of course you can, it's called trademark enforcement.
-
arc
In fact if you want to hold on to your trademark you must enforce it
-
arc
I have written GitHub several times and had personal forks of my projects renamed to indicate that they were personal forks
-
MattJ
We don't talk about trademarks
-
Zash
🤐️
-
arc
Well you should. Because the night missionario of having hundreds of competing xmpp servers called Prosody, some of it your forks with many of the same features, is a very real possibility if you don't
-
Daniel
Probably a good point to check your priveleges wrt to having the financial resources to register a trademark
-
Daniel
And paying the lawyers to enforce it
-
moparisthebest
how often does that nightmare scenario happen? I'd wager never
-
arc
Well it's happened to me twice
-
arc
Well I guess more than twice if you include both directions. Usually any true community forks end up pretty contentious