XSF Discussion - 2021-03-31

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  203. jcbrand Has anyone here though about or come up with a way to identify messages from bots? Seems like one can just include a special tag and namespace for it. Is there anything like that in the wild already?
  204. jonas’ jcbrand, bots should publish a bot identity in disco#info and clients should use that
  205. jonas’ jcbrand, https://xmpp.org/registrar/disco-categories.html#client
  206. jcbrand so you should send a disco query for every single message in a MUC?
  207. jcbrand not really practical in certain use-cases
  208. jonas’ '115 caches
  209. jonas’ or if that’s not feasible because MUC, you can just query when the participant enters the MUC
  210. jonas’ and cache the information until they leave it
  211. jcbrand You can really see that XMPP was designed without ever thinking about web clients
  212. jonas’ attaching such metadata to each and every message is incredible overhead
  213. Zash Hats
  214. jcbrand oh, I like that thanks Zash
  215. jcbrand We already have hats
  216. Zash <hat>🤖️</hat>
  217. jcbrand problem solved
  218. Zash 😀
  219. jonas’ ... *sigh*
  220. jcbrand lol
  221. jonas’ web making everything terrible again.
  222. jcbrand enjoy your ivory tower
  223. jonas’ jcbrand, to be clear, I’m not blaming *you*
  224. jonas’ I’m blaming the web.
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  226. flow jcbrand, out of curiosity: why doesn't the approach suggested by jonas’ work for web clients?
  227. Zash jcbrand, isn't this MUC being web-unfriendly rather than XMPP itself?
  228. jcbrand jonas’ yeah sorry, I don't want to be hostile, but the anti-web attitude in the XMPP community does grate a little sometimes. No big deal tho
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  230. jonas’ jcbrand, fair. Let me state for the record that I am really glad for your work on converse.js, because despite the web being terrible, XMPP-IM needs a web client which is *not* terrible and you seem to be doing a fairly great job at that.
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  232. Ge0rG what jonas’ said, 👍 for jcbrand
  233. jcbrand aw shucks, thanks guys
  234. Zash It's really the anti-everything-except-the-web attitude of the web that irks me.
  235. jcbrand Sure, I get that
  236. jonas’ web-pacman
  237. jonas’ web-pacman.gif
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  239. jcbrand flow: my knee-jerk response is that in various situations you can't cache/store everything across sessions like you can with desktop clients
  240. Zash jonas’, now I need you to drop everything and make that gif. you may edit the systemd-om-nom-nom.gif 😉
  241. jonas’ jcbrand, but hypothetically, if you did the disco#info on the first message from a participant and cached that for a session (or until that participant leaves), that would be feasible and good enough, wouldn’t it?
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  244. jcbrand jonas’: yes, but that is then not XEP-0115 compatible right?
  245. jonas’ I’m not sure '115 even works in MUCs
  246. Zash In theory you could cache caps-hash → disco response forever
  247. jonas’ if it did, you could sometimes skip disco#info lookups if your session has already seen the hash though if '115 worked
  248. jcbrand Yes, but in web clients you can't
  249. jcbrand Zash: Yes, but in web clients you can't
  250. jonas’ even that can do a lot (e.g. if the bot only hops into the room briefly and you don’t know the real JID)
  251. jcbrand You say that including a tag is wasteful, but in a MUC with an occasional bot post and lots of posts by other users, it seems wasteful to me to do a disco-info for each new poster
  252. jcbrand it could be a tag on the presence, not the messages themselves
  253. jcbrand But it's ok, the hats thing will work for my current use-case and for the open Jabber network doing a disco query for each new occupant is probably also fine
  254. jcbrand not each new occupant but each new message author
  255. flow jcbrand, you probably can re-use the disco#info information for other purposes too, so I am not sure if it is that wasteful
  256. jcbrand Unless you want to identify bots in your occupants list...
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  259. jcbrand seems very chatty to me. On a desktop client you can cache all this fairly aggressively, but on web you need to do potentially hundreds or thousands of disco info queries for every session
  260. jcbrand On web there is IndexedDB which doesn't have a size limit, so in theory you can use that and then your webapp is more like a desktop app, but having integrated that into Converse (via localForage), I've seen that writes are suuuuper slow.
  261. jcbrand And you can't use IndexedDB in all cases
  262. jcbrand I have some ideas on how to improve performance on Converse (basically batching writes), but haven't had the time to iron out the kinks
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  264. Ge0rG jcbrand: what about localStorage?
  265. jcbrand localStorage has a 5MB limit, so if you have lots of MUCs it fills up pretty quickly
  266. jcbrand Now you could regularly delete older messages, but then you lose your OMEMO history
  267. jcbrand So far that has made me reluctant to aggressively get rid of older messages
  268. Zash I can't actually use Converse.js anymore, it runs into those limits in a few minutes 😕
  269. jcbrand If it wasn't for OMEMO then it would be much easier
  270. Zash Not while joining all MUCs anyway
  271. jcbrand Zash: If you're up for it, you can try the master branch with IndexedDB
  272. jcbrand performance has improved a lot recently
  273. jcbrand Still quite a bit slower than localStorage, but usable IMO (although not usable in some use-cases like having it integrated into an existing resource-hungry site)
  274. jcbrand I might even make IndexedDB the default in the 8.0.0 release (especially if I can get the batched writes to work well)
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  279. jcbrand One advantage that disco has over hats is that hats are per MUC, so you have to assign them for every new MUC the bot enters
  280. Zash Hm, reminds me of the issue of MUC-component wide affiliations and such.
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  283. jcbrand yeah, would be great to have
  284. jcbrand is any of this fixed or improved by MIX?
  285. jcbrand Not that I expect MIX to supplant MUC any time soon
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  289. eric > eric: for which > screen size is certainly still a problem for KDE apps, like with plasma mobile the wifi setup dialog, no one had tested it with WPA2 Enterprise, the OK/Cancel buttons were off-screen, I had to hook it up to a monitor to set it up moparisthebest:
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  458. moparisthebest I thought web apps could request more localStorage space nowadays?
  459. moparisthebest eric: ah, no, but in general there are many more bugs than things that actually work in Linux phone land so I'm just waiting it out :)
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  461. Sam Reminder that XMPP Office Hours for this week are today, not Friday! "Soprani.ca: bridging us all together" by Stephen Paul Weber (singpolyma) on Wednesday, 31st March 17:00 UTC
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  532. Sam Office Hours for this week (about jmp.chat) is starting now! https://socialcoop.meet.coop/sam-pku-dud-niv
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  577. flow Ge0rG, why are groupchat messages in an user archive a bad idea?
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  579. Ge0rG flow: because the client needs to support that, be aware that those come from a MUC, and treat them differently. I think that the MUC MAM approach has worked better.
  580. Ge0rG Most clients today will probably do weird things when receiving groupchat messages from MAM
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  587. flow Ge0rG, thanks for the reply. But I've to admit that this appears to be more like a client issue
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  592. Zash There's also the problem with how a MUC will send one message for each joined resource, which complicates server processing.
  593. Zash Way simpler for the MUC to do it, as it already knows when processing that it's a single message, before it broadcasts it.
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  595. Ge0rG flow: a MUC will only send messages to you while at least one client is connected. If you only have one client, you will only receive from MAM what you already had before. If you have two clients, you will receive a random subset of the room history with no way to know where there are holes
  596. Zash There are scenarios where it's desirable that the user only sees history from when they're joined, but it does get weird and should probably be dealt with on the basis of affiliation.
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  598. Ge0rG It's getting even more weird with MIX MAM, and I've been telling that for years.
  599. Kev BTW, saying “no-one does this” isn’t correct :)
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  601. Zash This is the point where I mention that experiment I did in rewriting outgoing MUC joins so that they come from the bare JID?
  602. Kev But you’re right that it doesn’t work terribly well.
  603. Ge0rG Kev: I'm eager to read your implementation and interop story on the ML
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  605. Zash Ge0rG, what about MIX MAM ?
  606. Ge0rG Zash: you could convert that from a 20% implementation to an 80% implementation, and I'd actually test it
  607. Ge0rG Zash: s2s isn't flawless, it will cause holes in MAM
  608. Zash What's those 60% then?
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  617. Ge0rG Zash: tracking outgoing presence, leaving rooms, nickname management, bookmark sync
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  620. Kev If we have a MAM meta-search that searches each archive, we could probably get away without having mix history in personal archives.
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  622. Zash Ge0rG, but how will I be motivated to work on it without at least someone testing it?
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  624. Ge0rG Zash: well, how am I supposed to test it if it breaks everything?
  625. Zash Someone needs to go push the stalemate resolution button!
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  628. Zash And there's like 3 different bookmarks methods atm, that seems fun to deal with
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  631. Zash Ge0rG, track what outgoing presence?
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  633. Ge0rG Zash: room joins from clients?
  634. Zash That part should work afaik
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  637. Ge0rG What about error handling?
  638. Zash That goes under "leave"
  639. Zash which is under TODO
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  641. Zash I think it even dedups additional joins, tho I'm not sure that's optimal.
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  644. Ge0rG Zash: it's a server module in a state I can't possibly deploy on a production server, and I'm only using one single room from my other server
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  647. Zash Should set up that bleeding edge Prosody instance for client devs ... one day.
  648. Ge0rG Yeah, crash me!
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  651. Kev What rules would be needed? Just rewrite anything going to/from a MUC so that the user part is bare?
  652. Kev Determining it’s a MUC by the first thing that’s sent being a presence with muc in it?
  653. Ge0rG Kev: you need to implement a bouncer that will multiplex the room between all your clients
  654. Kev Oh yeah, that.
  655. Kev So, basically imprementing MIX-PAM, in other words.
  656. Zash Pretty much
  657. Ge0rG Kev: kinda sorta
  658. Ge0rG Well, it's probably not so much to implement, and doesn't need to persist anything. But it might have to do sophisticated things with room history generation on join
  659. Zash Keep track of joined rooms, joined resources to deal with rewriting in- and outgoing stanzas. Then subject and participants which lets you add new local resources and send them a synthesized join presence flood.
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  661. Kev So, it’s much worse that just implementing MIX-PAM.
  662. Zash No, it's better because it works with MUC, which is what Everyone™ is using today.
  663. Zash With zero changes required of clients
  664. Kev I mean it’s much worse to implement.
  665. Ge0rG And with a manageable overhead on the server
  666. Zash Sure, it's MUC
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  668. Kev You know what it is like implementing, actually?
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  670. Kev It’s basically implementing FMUC.
  671. Kev Which is a MUC implementation that can join another MUC.
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  673. Zash FMUC-on-your-JID
  674. Zash Because we need more things-on-your-JID! 😀
  675. Kev It’s the bastard child of MIX-PAM and FMUC.
  676. Ge0rG And implementing it will give a significant immediate benefits
  677. Ge0rG Mobile clients don't need to self ping any more
  678. Zash Now the server will need to self-ping! 😀
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  680. Ge0rG You'd get reasonable push integration
  681. Ge0rG Less presence flooding of rooms
  682. Ge0rG Zash: the server knows about its s2s, so it only need to self ping after s2s went down
  683. Zash Could probably do the presence versioning thing, closer to the user.
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  685. Ge0rG Zash: needs new protocol
  686. Zash Hm?
  687. Ge0rG Kev: that solution is 100% transparent to existing implementations both on the client and on the MUC
  688. Zash In theory you could do the same thing but have it speak MIX
  689. Kev In theory you can do anything with enough monkeys and typewriters, yes :)
  690. Zash No idea if MUC-MIX translation is easier on the users' server or the MIX host.
  691. Kev MIX. Much :)
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  694. Zash Ge0rG, FWIW I think it's okay to leave the door open for storing groupchat messages in the users local archive, but Something Needs To Be Done first.
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  696. Ge0rG Zash: yes, a new XEP needs to be written.
  697. Ge0rG No place in 313 for this
  698. Kev Is it worth having to bump the namespace for the sake of changing the SHOULD to the MUST?
  699. Zash Ugh
  700. Ge0rG I remember having to explain to another developer not to do it like written in the XEP
  701. Ge0rG Kev: which one?
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  704. Kev MAM.
  705. Zash Let's not bump any namespaces
  706. Kev I think changing a SHOULD to a MUST would require that.
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  709. Zash SHOULD NOT then?
  710. Zash or perhaps a PLZ DONT
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  715. Ge0rG Kev: there are 14 SHOULD and a dozen should.
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  717. Ge0rG So which one are you talking about?
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  720. Zash The one closest to the word 'groupchat' I would have presumed?
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  722. Ge0rG So... > A server ~SHOULD~ MUST also include messages of type 'groupchat' that have a <body> I really hope that's not the intention
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  724. Kev You proposed onlist changing into MUST NOT store gcs.
  725. Kev I think.
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  727. Ge0rG Kev: last time I checked, MUST NOT was the opposite of MUST, so please excuse my confusion. But yes, I suggested that.
  728. Ge0rG As an escalation of "SHOULD NOT", but I like strong words.
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  730. Ge0rG I also looked up that the first time I wrote "MAM subscription" on list was in 2015, and probably even earlier in here.
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  734. Zash This is a wordification of what future (currently unreleased) Prosody will do, if nothing changes before the next major release: - **Do not** store messages of type headline since these are supposed to be for transient notifications, most often PEP events. - **Do store** messages of type error, since if you sent a message it is of interest to know that delivery failed. - **Do not** store messages of type groupchat, as MUCs will send one message per joined resource and most often provides their own MAM. - Follow \[XEP-0334: Message Processing Hints\] advising for or against storage. - **Do store** messages with a `<body>` and/or `<subject>` element, as these carry messages for users. - **Do store** encrypted messages for the same reason as with `<body>`, as indicated by \[XEP-0380: Explicit Message Encryption\]. - **Do store** messages with \[XEP-0184: Message Delivery Receipts\] requests, and the receipts themselves, as if something is important enough to need such a receipt it is probably important enough to archive. - **Do store** messages with \[XEP-0333: Chat Markers\], for the same reasons as with receipts. - **Do store** MUC invites, both mediated and direct. - **Do store** messages with an \[XEP-0353: Jingle Message Initiation\] payload, as users will want to know if they had missed calls. - Anything not covered by this point is either something new that may or may not warrant adding to the archive or something that should not be archived.
  735. Kev And I don’t think you’re even the first person to suggest mamsub ;)
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  742. flow Ge0rG, I like you response on the ML, but you may want to consider adding reasons against groupchat messages in a user archive. I think your mail contains none, and the reasons are good. I feel we often discuss on the mailing list stating "everyone knows that X is a bad idea", without actually providing any reasons/arguments why it is so. And that probably deters people from participating.
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  744. Ge0rG flow: thanks! I'm not going to be at a proper computer for the next days, so feel free to summarize, link or copy paste what we discussed here today
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  779. Kev If you were to do dedupe on the server, or whatever, you could also achieve reasonable groupchats in the archive behaviour.
  780. Kev And probably for less work than trying to implement the MUC-PAM discussed earlier.
  781. Zash That's a big and messy if tho
  782. Kev Unlike finding a way to do dudupe and everything else involved in MUC-PAM? :)
  783. Kev I’m just giving another reason that I think MUST NOT would be excessive.
  784. Zash Just Unfork Stuff™
  785. Zash Kev, I agree tho, if you do go and solve that and other issues, storing groupchats in the users archive is probably okay.
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  793. Ge0rG Kev: also please solve reliable s2s while you are at it. And World Peace. Whatever is easier.
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  798. Zash You know what, let's flip that default
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  801. Ge0rG Kev: you need additional protocol to get MUC messages into the user account, even when no client is connected, which is surprisingly close to MUC-PAM
  802. Ge0rG Without that, you get invisible holes in MUC history, which is the opposite of what xmpp needs
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  826. flow not sure if we MUST keywordify here, it appears a simple "we found that user archives with type=groupchat messages cause trouble if not taken special care of, and clients may want to consider ignoring type=groupchat messages in a user archive"
  827. flow could be sufficient
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  834. Kev Makes sense to me.
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  840. Ge0rG I still think that servers shouldn't send all the MUC garbage to a client
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  873. moparisthebest Looks like XMPP infringes on this patent in the USA, </stream:stream> illegal: > The claimed invention is a system where at least one robot “generates a goodbye command that terminates a communication session” with another robot and “relinquishes control.” https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/03/stupid-patent-month-telehealth-robots-say-goodbye
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  886. Ge0rG Is it April Fool's already?
  887. moparisthebest Unfortunately no
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