-
flow
moparisthebest, you mean, not for *you*, no? ;)
-
flow
should xep441 have a disco#info feature flag or are we fine with "perform IQ and see what it returns"?
-
flow
CC MattJ, Kev ↑
-
MattJ
I guess a feature may make sense
-
flow
I guess how that it has been factored out into a new xep without an extra feature flag is an argument to not add one now. But I wonder if we shouldn't have introduced one when we factored this into it's own XEP
-
MattJ
I'm not keen on progressing that XEP though
-
flow
cause the absence of a feature flag does not tell you much now
-
Kev
I guess a feature may make sense.
-
Kev
I have fairly little interest in 441 though :)
-
flow
is xep441 ex3 correct? shouldn't it be service-unavailble?✎ -
flow
is xep441 ex3 correct? shouldn't it be service-unavailable? ✏
-
MattJ
Not if the server supports MAM
-
MattJ
Supported namespace, unsupported feature within that namespace: feature-not-implemented
-
MattJ
Unsupported/unrecognised namespace: service-unavailable
-
flow
hmm fair point if you only consider the namespace
-
flow
I was looking at the qname of the IQ
-
flow
and would have said unknown IQ (by qname) results in service-unavailable
-
flow
is this specified somewhere?
-
MattJ
https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#stanzas-error-conditions-feature-not-implemented
-
flow
so all servers check for the IQs child element namespace and decide what to return if they can't handle this?
-
flow
ahh ok, at least this is cleary specified
-
MattJ
I think it's rarely used in practice, but this is a case where it's clearly correct - since the feature is an optional part of MAM
-
MattJ
Typically I think most features within a namespace are not (meant to be) optional
-
flow
pubsub would disagree I think
-
MattJ
Pubsub is, as always, a special case :)
-
Kev
I think the reverse.
-
Kev
Pubsub is the general case, and everything else is a special case :D
-
flow
I was about to write the same
-
Holger
It _should_ be that way.
-
Sam
Ge0rG: 💥 𝐛𝐥𝐚𝐦𝐨, implemented: https://play.golang.org/p/kfodrx-7xXM
-
jonas’
as a compat layer to '393?
-
Sam
Yup, 0393 is basically just a way for users to trigger styling. The output is up to you!
-
jonas’
finally!
-
Sam
oops, left out strike through. Fixed. Unsure why it's not combining here: https://play.golang.org/p/Bx35jHvdp2P
-
Sam
(works if I paste it elsewhere, must be a web thing)
-
jonas’
it always is a web thing
-
Sam
True story
-
jonas’
love it
-
jonas’
I can haz poezio plugin
-
Sam
(I know this was a joke, but honestly I'd probably implement it this way in certain environments where doing simple formatting is a pain otherwise)
-
Kev
Is this like where I did a JSON encoding of XMPP as an April 1st, and then someone else submitted one later that worked less well than mine? :)
-
Sam
Nope, this is a compliant implementation!
-
Sam
Definitely legit.
-
Kev
I mean where you said “I’d probably implement it this way”.
-
Zash
You mean Matrix?
-
Sam
Oh yah; I mean, jokes aside, it would probably work pretty well if you're using a GTK widget that doesn't support styling or something.
-
Zash
MUST return item-not-found, for unknown ids in the 'ids' field ... That seems painful to do with SQL without extra roundtrips, especially in case you request enough to involve paging
-
MattJ
Client developers want it this way, server developers don't, who should we favour? :)
-
theTedd
𝒕𝒉𝒂𝒏𝒌𝒔, Ge0rG, 𝒕𝒉𝒊𝒔 𝒊𝒔 𝒗𝒆𝒓𝒚 𝒇𝒂𝒏𝒄𝒚!
-
MattJ
https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/screenshot-20210401-1617286138-1563.png
-
theTedd
font rendering is fUn
-
Ge0rG
theTedd: 😁👍
-
edhelas
works for me ™
-
Half-Shot
genuinely impressed it rendered for me :p
-
jonas’
see, it even works in Matrix!
-
edhelas
it always works in Matrix ™
-
edhelas
XMPP is a subset of Matrix
-
Ge0rG
It's standard Unicode.
-
theTedd
you still need the relevant font faces though
- Half-Shot considers making that the big reveal today
-
Sam
Ge0rG: I look forward to your Office Hours talk on this.
-
Sam
Very important work we're doing here.
-
mathieui
FWIW this use of unicode is the worst thing ever for screen readers and accessibility tools
-
Sam
I was just wondering about that :)
-
Kev
Oh, it isn’t. There are worse things, it’s just pretty terrible :D
-
mathieui
Kev, true, it could be an image of the text :p
-
moparisthebest
mathieui: it addresses that: > As a visually impaired user, I want my screen reader to emit long sequences of technical names of Unicode special characters to really convey the point of the intended emphasis, character by character!
-
mathieui
moparisthebest, is this a scenario from https://twitter.com/shituserstory ?
-
Kev
🤷🏻♂️
-
moparisthebest
Hey we don't always get to pick the requirements
-
theTedd
I'd like to think the screen reader would normalise the text into ascii and read that, with expressed emphasis if deemed relevant, but maybe I'm dreaming
-
Zash
Technical solutions doing the sensible thing? What universe do you live in?
-
theTedd
the one with pixies, fairies, genies, and trolls
-
wurstsalat
mathieui, nice collection
-
emus
Hi MattJ, ralphm, dwd & arc - I hope I got everyone from board. Sam plans to create a youtube account to place the XMPP Office Hours Videos. Can we create one under the name of XSF? I also plan to create a general email for commteam on my own responsibility, to connect the other social accounts to this in a central manner. So its not on anyones privat mail anymore. Thats what I would also use in that case. (where I would prefer Vimeo or anything else, at least to have a second option)
-
ralphm
emus: I don't see a problem with that. Can you please coordinate with iteam, to ensure continued access to the XSF?
-
arc
I'm fine with it so long as we have multiple people able to manage the channel, vs the channel being under a single person's personal account
-
emus
ralphm, arc: yes, that was my intention
-
emus
That I am not the only one accessing
-
emus
Of course we should also coordinate what to post in the end
-
emus
arc, ralphm: Because that is a bit an issue with most accounts
-
Sam
Sounds good, I'll make it. It will be a brand account, so anyone who wants to be an admin just send me your email and I'll add you
-
Sam
(email must be a Google account, of course)
-
Sam
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf3Kq2ElJDFQhYDdjn18RuA
-
emus
we cannot register a different email? Because I did not plan to create a Google account for hosting
-
emus
XSF information*
-
Sam
We can try, I assumed it had to be a Google account, but I don't know
-
emus
hmm
-
Zash
Google service? Google account will be required.
-
emus
😢
-
Sam
It requires verification with a phone number to upload videos more than 15 minutes apparently. Thank goodness for jmp.chat.
-
arc
Is that how they do it now with a brand account? We used to use Google Plus but obviously that's not going to work anymore
-
emus
Maybe we should rather host a download repository than joining youtube^^ Sam: I can offer my spam number
-
Sam
emus: no need, I just used a number from jmp.chat. It's already verified :) thank you though
-
Zash
Or find a friendly PeerTube instance
-
emus
Zash: Even better
-
Sam
Zash: on a personal note I'd like to experiment with peertube but all the places that seemed okay either didn't have open registration or had a bunch severe restrictions that meant I couldn't use them. If you have suggestions though, I'd love to experiment with one.
-
Sam
I really wish there was a co-op that just offered peertube. We've been thinking about adding an instance at social.coop, but I don't know if/when that will happen and kind of like the idea of a group that *only* does that.
- ralphm bangs gavel
-
ralphm
0. Welcome
-
ralphm
Hi! Who do we have, and are you bringing agenda items?
-
Sam
I would like to bring an agenda item when the time comes.
-
ralphm
This is a great time to suggest the item.
-
Sam
I'd like the XSF to consider whether it makes sense for it to act as a fiscal host for XMPP related projects that don't have an organization of their own, but operate in a non-profit manner.
-
ralphm
dwd, arc, MattJ
-
MattJ
Here
-
ralphm
Sam: thanks
-
arc
Here
-
dwd
Here!
-
ralphm
Full house!
-
arc
Sorry I am with the fiber installer getting him sorted but you have my full attention
-
ralphm
Noted
-
ralphm
I'll briefly mention last week's dicussion, too.
-
ralphm
1. Minute taker
-
ralphm
I think I'm up?
-
ralphm
2. Last week's discussion
-
arc
That sounds about right
-
ralphm
What started out with moderation, grew into a discussion on codes of conduct and privacy and such.
-
ralphm
dwd shared a short note on the board mailing list, but I assume he's not done with his research. If so, I'd postpone this item for next week?
-
dwd
I am not done, though I've found a few positive examples (as in, CoC which promote good behaviour rather than block bad behaviour). I'll post an update early next week.
-
ralphm
Thanks!
-
arc
I think the conversation less drifted, than an acknowledgment that moderation without a code of conduct in place will get a lot of flack
-
ralphm
Sure
-
ralphm
3. XSF as fiscal host for projects
-
ralphm
Sam brought up this item (earlier, too, I think). Do you want to expand on it a bit?
-
Sam
Sure
-
emus
> dwd escribió: > I am not done, though I've found a few positive examples (as in, CoC which promote good behaviour rather than block bad behaviour). I'll post an update early next week. I think I support this too
-
dwd
emus, Suggested by, I think, arc. I'm just following that steer.
-
emus
Ah okay, fine 😊
-
Sam
The general idea is that since the XSF is a U.S. based 501c3 non-profit organization, we're in a position where we could accept donations that are earmarked for specific projects we support. That way the donation is tax-deductible for the person making it (because it's to the XSF), and we just have to follow rules around how we distribute it to projects.
-
Sam
There are other projects such as Open Collective that make this easy so the XSF wouldn't have to do any of the hard accounting work or verification or what not.
-
arc
So similar to the software freedom conservancy?
-
Sam
I don't know how they operate, but I suspect so.
-
ralphm
arc: does that mean you know how this works in practice?
-
dwd
I'm in favour of doing this in principle, but I'd like to understand the effort involved, and be assured that the Treasurer in particular was happy.
-
ralphm
++
-
Sam
I recommend Open Collective (https://opencollective.com/) in particular because they handle all the fancy accounting for you which would probably make the treasurer happy and I believe they would be free for us to use (unless we charged fees to the projects, but I assume we wouldn't do that)
-
MattJ
This is something I've long wanted to see the XSF do (it's one reason I was originally motivated to become a board member), so I support it in principle
-
MattJ
But I'm going to play devil's advocate here: now we're in a world where Open Collective exists, maybe they are better suited? Since that is their sole purpose
-
arc
So the conservancy has member projects, each of which have applied and been accepted. The conservancy manages the bank accounts, takes cut of each donation to pay for a professional accountant, and sometimes manages copyrights
-
Sam
I should say that I don't know how or if this works outside of U.S. projects accepting donations in US Dollars. I know Open Collective can handle it, but I don't know if the XSF needs whatever the EU or UK equivalent of a 501c3 is, for example.
-
arc
Open collective is a different organization yes
-
MattJ
I worry that the XSF as an organization is simply not in a place to take on the responsibility of this role
-
ralphm
Because it requires effort that we collectively haven't shown to have cycles for?
-
MattJ
Correct
-
dwd
Sam, The equivalent in the UK to a 501c3 is a registered charity, and is a complex thing involving the same levels of public accounts as a public listed company.
-
arc
For a few projects it's not really a big deal. But if we start offering this as a service to projects, it could require having to hire a CPA
-
Sam
I believe this is true if we were to handle all the accounting and money ourselves. However, if we had all the money in open collective they are effectively handling the accounts for us, so all we'd have to do is approve projects.
-
MattJ
We only just manage to reimburse people after events, and we routinely failed to collect funds from sponsors for years (if we're doing that reliably now, it's the first year I think)
-
arc
Of course by that point we would have the cash flow to do that
-
dwd
Sam, I mean, if you want the tax deduction, which works a different way (the charity gets the tax, not the person giving, sort of)
-
dwd
So to flip this around, could the XSF use the Open Collective or similar to handle donations to it?
-
arc
That kind of depends on the level of donation and who's giving it. Larger corporations lake Cisco absolutely want to see the magic 503c3 seal.
-
Sam
Yes, they also handle reimbursements, so it might be worth evaluating if it would be useful for all XSF money. However, I haven't used it very much for that, so I don't know how good it is.
-
dwd
arc, We can certainly use both of course.
-
arc
What kind of cut does the open collective take?
-
Sam
For us it would be nothing
-
Sam
They make money from fiscal hosts who charge their projects
-
Sam
In which case it's 15% of the fee the fiscal host charges. I assume we wouldn't do that, so it wouldn't cost us except in transaction fees when we make reimbursements and things.
-
Sam
Or transfer money to/from a bank account.
-
arc
Gotcha that is pretty much the industry standard
-
Sam
Those fees are set by banks and governments, so that probably depends a lot.
-
Sam
Of course, we could also charge host fees if the XSF wanted another stream of revenue to fund something, that's up to the board or treasurer I assume.
-
dwd
Sam, So in that case - us using Open Collective to "host" projects - we're effectively whitelabelling Open Collective?
-
ralphm
To be clear, that'd be up to the board or the ED.
-
Sam
dwd: yes, for example, here's my (unused) page for a business I was working on for a while that acts as its own fiscal host: https://opencollective.com/cornergarage
-
Sam
Actually, bad example, let me find something that's active
-
Sam
Here is social.coop, the Mastodon and BBB service I use: https://opencollective.com/socialcoop
-
Kev
As a question - I think it’s being assumed that the XSF wouldn’t charge for the facility. Should we consider that assumption?
-
dwd
Sam, And what's the difference between the XSF doing this and projects just going direct to the Open Collective?
-
Sam
They don't handle their own money, a platform co-op is their fiscal host: so this is their host: https://opencollective.com/platform6-coop
-
Sam
dwd: Open Collective itself wont' act as a fiscal host, you have to have one with 501c3 status.
-
dwd
Sam, Ah, understood.
-
Sam
They do have a couple of subsidiaries that can act as fiscal hosts if you meet certain requirements. Eg. I believe one of them requires 100 stars on GitHube or a bunch of verification about how active the project is.
-
Sam
But XMPP related projects often can't meet those requirements because it's such a small community.
-
dwd
Sam, So in effect, we're using Open Collective like a bank account?
-
Sam
dwd: yes, more or less. It's a bank account that lets you earmark money for specific projects.
-
Sam
And lets those projects take advantage of the XSF's tax status.
-
dwd
OK, this makes more sense to me now.
-
Sam
It also provides convenient ways for individuals to donate and what not, so it's sort of combining a bank, accounting and reimbursements, and Patreon.
-
dwd
Sam, So for our own, smaller, donations we'd just have a "bucket" for the XSF, under the XSF's name and 501c3 status, but hosted by Open Collective.
-
dwd
Sam, And for, say, Melium, people would be paying into a Mellium bucket which is a Collective bank details thing, but they're paying the XSF under the XSF's 501c3.
-
Sam
Right
-
Kev
Are there other orgs that offer what the XSF is proposing to do, but not backed by open collective?
-
ralphm
So now we have a bit more insight, what do we still need (to know) to make a decision?
-
Sam
Kev: yes, this is quite common and lots of places do it out of their own bank account. It just requires knowing accounting things.
-
Kev
Basically asking: Does the XSF need to offer this in order for it to be accessible for XMPP projects, or could they easily already go elsewhere?
-
Sam
I only propose Open Collective because I've used them and their financial tools are very nice to use.
-
Sam
There may be other platforms that help make this easy too, I don't know.
-
ralphm
Kev: so you're not asking if we can take this on ourselves?
-
dwd
Kev, My understanding is that they'd need to go to another 501c3, and this would be difficult to arrange for small projects, which is (broadly) any of the XMPP ones.
-
Kev
Ralphm: I’m asking if us taking it on would add any value over existing offerings.
-
Sam
Oh I'm sorry, I misunderstood.
-
dwd
Kev, My answer was to that question.
-
Kev
I understand from the above that Open Collective wouldn’t make this easy for a small project, so I’m asking if there are alternatives.
-
Kev
dwd: So you’re saying you believe there’s no-one already doing what the XSF would be proposing to do here (either backed by OC or otherwise)?
-
Kev
I’m in favour of this being available to XMPP projects, I’m just wondering if it needs to be the XSF that does it.
-
dwd
Kev, Not quite. I'm saying that you need both a donations-processor (OC) and a 501c3 to "front" for you.
-
Sam
I believe the value in having the XSF do this is that we'd have a fiscal host that's *only* for XMPP related projects that doesn't need to care how big the community is because they're not overloaded with requests from every project on the web, the criteria is "must be XMPP related" so it's a bit more specialized.
-
Sam
Whereas the Software Conservancy or whatever is more general in terms of the software they accept, so they get tons more applications and have to set some limits on how big/small the projects are.
-
dwd
Kev, As Sam says, the difficulty for the project is finding the 501c3 org to front them.
-
Sam
However, there may be others that would be perfect for XMPP projects that I have not found.
-
Sam
Most of them are either general software ones that have strict requirements, or have their own strict requirements (that aren't about XMPP).
-
ralphm
Since I have to go in a few minutes, what next?
-
Sam
Anyways, thanks for your consideration. I'm happy to answer questions or give a demo after the meeting (or whenever).
-
Kev
I suggest a) Is the XSF happy to do this if ‘needed’ and if so b) have someone check it’s needed.
-
dwd
So I'd like to know: * More details (always!) * Treasurer's opinion * How this would play in EU/UK * What other options exist in other regions.
-
Kev
I think it would be quite unfortunate for the XSF to only be able to support US projects, FWIW.
-
ralphm
Sam: would you be able to / like to look into answering some of those questions?
-
Sam
I tend to agree. Perhapse the XSF could partner with Snikket to have that act as a UK/EU charity.
-
Kev
And I’d take everything dwd says as c)
-
Sam
I can try to look into the EU/UK requirements. As far as checking if it's needed I'll reach out to the mailing list and ask I guess.
-
Sam
Is Peter still the treasurer? I can also reach out and ask him.
-
arc
Yes he is
-
dwd
Sam, Snikket is a, erm, kind of Limited Company. Not tax exempt.
-
Sam
oh okay, nevermind then. I'll dig deeper into the EU/UK question then and see what the best way for the XSF to do that would be.
-
Sam
Anyways, "yes", I'll try to answer those questions.
-
Kev
Sam: By ‘needed’ I meant “there’s no sensible alternatives” rather than “people need the facility”, but the latter is probably also good to work out.
-
Sam
Gotcha
-
arc
Most larger sponsors have US offices anyway
-
Sam
I have tried to look into sensible alternatives and wasn't able to find any
-
Kev
Fair enough.
-
ralphm
Ok. Thanks Sam.
-
Sam
Thank you!
-
ralphm
Let's pick this up again when there's more info.
-
ralphm
5. AOB
-
ralphm
?
-
arc
Not from me
-
ralphm
6. Date of Next
-
ralphm
+1W
-
ralphm
7. Close
-
ralphm
Thanks all!
- ralphm bangs gavel
-
dwd
Thanks!
-
arc
Thanks
-
Kev
Nice to see an active Board meeting :)
-
emus
In terms of ressources: Assume we get this done for US (one step after another before expanding to EU). Once we would hit the spot of "need of hiring" - cant we found this from that status aswell?
-
dwd
emus, Not sure I follow.
-
emus
Maybe in other words: Sam requested this for US. I think its worth to reach this - we can expand to EU/UK another time and should not overkill the approach with complexity (from scratch). I think its a good idea
-
dwd
Right. My question over the EU/UK (and, who knows, elsewhere) is that there may be places that would give us a global reach from the start.
-
Sam
Yah, I don't know how many U.S. based projects we actually have. Entirely anecdotally: most XMPP related projects are in the UK/EU.
-
Sam
So it seems worth looking into so that we don't have a collective page with 1 or 2 projects on it forever.
-
Kev
If we wanted to go where it would provide most value soonest, probably the US isn’t the optimal start, but I could be wrong.
-
Kev
We keep talking about setting up an EU presence for the XSF because so much of everything happens this side of the pond.
-
emus
Yes, I see that, just saying that we shouldn't drown the idea, because we cannot get everything from the start because it turned out to be to complex. Of course having this in EU would be great!