XSF Discussion - 2021-04-01

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  161. flow moparisthebest, you mean, not for *you*, no? ;)
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  319. flow should xep441 have a disco#info feature flag or are we fine with "perform IQ and see what it returns"?
  320. flow CC MattJ, Kev ↑
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  322. MattJ I guess a feature may make sense
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  324. flow I guess how that it has been factored out into a new xep without an extra feature flag is an argument to not add one now. But I wonder if we shouldn't have introduced one when we factored this into it's own XEP
  325. MattJ I'm not keen on progressing that XEP though
  326. flow cause the absence of a feature flag does not tell you much now
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  331. Kev I guess a feature may make sense.
  332. Kev I have fairly little interest in 441 though :)
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  338. flow is xep441 ex3 correct? shouldn't it be service-unavailble?
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  340. flow is xep441 ex3 correct? shouldn't it be service-unavailable?
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  342. MattJ Not if the server supports MAM
  343. MattJ Supported namespace, unsupported feature within that namespace: feature-not-implemented
  344. MattJ Unsupported/unrecognised namespace: service-unavailable
  345. flow hmm fair point if you only consider the namespace
  346. flow I was looking at the qname of the IQ
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  348. flow and would have said unknown IQ (by qname) results in service-unavailable
  349. flow is this specified somewhere?
  350. MattJ https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#stanzas-error-conditions-feature-not-implemented
  351. flow so all servers check for the IQs child element namespace and decide what to return if they can't handle this?
  352. flow ahh ok, at least this is cleary specified
  353. MattJ I think it's rarely used in practice, but this is a case where it's clearly correct - since the feature is an optional part of MAM
  354. MattJ Typically I think most features within a namespace are not (meant to be) optional
  355. flow pubsub would disagree I think
  356. MattJ Pubsub is, as always, a special case :)
  357. Kev I think the reverse.
  358. Kev Pubsub is the general case, and everything else is a special case :D
  359. flow I was about to write the same
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  361. Holger It _should_ be that way.
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  402. Sam Ge0rG: 💥 𝐛𝐥𝐚𝐦𝐨, implemented: https://play.golang.org/p/kfodrx-7xXM
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  405. jonas’ as a compat layer to '393?
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  407. Sam Yup, 0393 is basically just a way for users to trigger styling. The output is up to you!
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  413. jonas’ finally!
  414. Sam oops, left out strike through. Fixed. Unsure why it's not combining here: https://play.golang.org/p/Bx35jHvdp2P
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  417. Sam (works if I paste it elsewhere, must be a web thing)
  418. jonas’ it always is a web thing
  419. Sam True story
  420. jonas’ love it
  421. jonas’ I can haz poezio plugin
  422. Sam (I know this was a joke, but honestly I'd probably implement it this way in certain environments where doing simple formatting is a pain otherwise)
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  425. Kev Is this like where I did a JSON encoding of XMPP as an April 1st, and then someone else submitted one later that worked less well than mine? :)
  426. Sam Nope, this is a compliant implementation!
  427. Sam Definitely legit.
  428. Kev I mean where you said “I’d probably implement it this way”.
  429. Zash You mean Matrix?
  430. Sam Oh yah; I mean, jokes aside, it would probably work pretty well if you're using a GTK widget that doesn't support styling or something.
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  447. Zash MUST return item-not-found, for unknown ids in the 'ids' field ... That seems painful to do with SQL without extra roundtrips, especially in case you request enough to involve paging
  448. MattJ Client developers want it this way, server developers don't, who should we favour? :)
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  509. theTedd 𝒕𝒉𝒂𝒏𝒌𝒔, Ge0rG, 𝒕𝒉𝒊𝒔 𝒊𝒔 𝒗𝒆𝒓𝒚 𝒇𝒂𝒏𝒄𝒚!
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  512. MattJ https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/screenshot-20210401-1617286138-1563.png
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  515. theTedd font rendering is fUn
  516. Ge0rG theTedd: 😁👍
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  522. edhelas works for me ™
  523. Half-Shot genuinely impressed it rendered for me :p
  524. jonas’ see, it even works in Matrix!
  525. edhelas it always works in Matrix ™
  526. edhelas XMPP is a subset of Matrix
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  530. Ge0rG It's standard Unicode.
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  533. theTedd you still need the relevant font faces though
  534. Half-Shot considers making that the big reveal today
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  542. Sam Ge0rG: I look forward to your Office Hours talk on this.
  543. Sam Very important work we're doing here.
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  555. mathieui FWIW this use of unicode is the worst thing ever for screen readers and accessibility tools
  556. Sam I was just wondering about that :)
  557. Kev Oh, it isn’t. There are worse things, it’s just pretty terrible :D
  558. mathieui Kev, true, it could be an image of the text :p
  559. moparisthebest mathieui: it addresses that: > As a visually impaired user, I want my screen reader to emit long sequences of technical names of Unicode special characters to really convey the point of the intended emphasis, character by character!
  560. mathieui moparisthebest, is this a scenario from https://twitter.com/shituserstory ?
  561. Kev 🤷🏻‍♂️
  562. moparisthebest Hey we don't always get to pick the requirements
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  565. theTedd I'd like to think the screen reader would normalise the text into ascii and read that, with expressed emphasis if deemed relevant, but maybe I'm dreaming
  566. Zash Technical solutions doing the sensible thing? What universe do you live in?
  567. theTedd the one with pixies, fairies, genies, and trolls
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  570. wurstsalat mathieui, nice collection
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  597. emus Hi MattJ, ralphm, dwd & arc - I hope I got everyone from board. Sam plans to create a youtube account to place the XMPP Office Hours Videos. Can we create one under the name of XSF? I also plan to create a general email for commteam on my own responsibility, to connect the other social accounts to this in a central manner. So its not on anyones privat mail anymore. Thats what I would also use in that case. (where I would prefer Vimeo or anything else, at least to have a second option)
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  599. ralphm emus: I don't see a problem with that. Can you please coordinate with iteam, to ensure continued access to the XSF?
  600. arc I'm fine with it so long as we have multiple people able to manage the channel, vs the channel being under a single person's personal account
  601. emus ralphm, arc: yes, that was my intention
  602. emus That I am not the only one accessing
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  604. emus Of course we should also coordinate what to post in the end
  605. emus arc, ralphm: Because that is a bit an issue with most accounts
  606. Sam Sounds good, I'll make it. It will be a brand account, so anyone who wants to be an admin just send me your email and I'll add you
  607. Sam (email must be a Google account, of course)
  608. Sam https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf3Kq2ElJDFQhYDdjn18RuA
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  613. emus we cannot register a different email? Because I did not plan to create a Google account for hosting
  614. emus XSF information*
  615. Sam We can try, I assumed it had to be a Google account, but I don't know
  616. emus hmm
  617. Zash Google service? Google account will be required.
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  619. emus 😢
  620. Sam It requires verification with a phone number to upload videos more than 15 minutes apparently. Thank goodness for jmp.chat.
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  627. arc Is that how they do it now with a brand account? We used to use Google Plus but obviously that's not going to work anymore
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  633. emus Maybe we should rather host a download repository than joining youtube^^ Sam: I can offer my spam number
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  635. Sam emus: no need, I just used a number from jmp.chat. It's already verified :) thank you though
  636. Zash Or find a friendly PeerTube instance
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  638. emus Zash: Even better
  639. Sam Zash: on a personal note I'd like to experiment with peertube but all the places that seemed okay either didn't have open registration or had a bunch severe restrictions that meant I couldn't use them. If you have suggestions though, I'd love to experiment with one.
  640. Sam I really wish there was a co-op that just offered peertube. We've been thinking about adding an instance at social.coop, but I don't know if/when that will happen and kind of like the idea of a group that *only* does that.
  641. ralphm bangs gavel
  642. ralphm 0. Welcome
  643. ralphm Hi! Who do we have, and are you bringing agenda items?
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  645. Sam I would like to bring an agenda item when the time comes.
  646. ralphm This is a great time to suggest the item.
  647. Sam I'd like the XSF to consider whether it makes sense for it to act as a fiscal host for XMPP related projects that don't have an organization of their own, but operate in a non-profit manner.
  648. ralphm dwd, arc, MattJ
  649. MattJ Here
  650. ralphm Sam: thanks
  651. arc Here
  652. dwd Here!
  653. ralphm Full house!
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  655. arc Sorry I am with the fiber installer getting him sorted but you have my full attention
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  658. ralphm Noted
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  661. ralphm I'll briefly mention last week's dicussion, too.
  662. ralphm 1. Minute taker
  663. ralphm I think I'm up?
  664. ralphm 2. Last week's discussion
  665. arc That sounds about right
  666. ralphm What started out with moderation, grew into a discussion on codes of conduct and privacy and such.
  667. ralphm dwd shared a short note on the board mailing list, but I assume he's not done with his research. If so, I'd postpone this item for next week?
  668. dwd I am not done, though I've found a few positive examples (as in, CoC which promote good behaviour rather than block bad behaviour). I'll post an update early next week.
  669. ralphm Thanks!
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  671. arc I think the conversation less drifted, than an acknowledgment that moderation without a code of conduct in place will get a lot of flack
  672. ralphm Sure
  673. ralphm 3. XSF as fiscal host for projects
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  675. ralphm Sam brought up this item (earlier, too, I think). Do you want to expand on it a bit?
  676. Sam Sure
  677. emus > dwd escribió: > I am not done, though I've found a few positive examples (as in, CoC which promote good behaviour rather than block bad behaviour). I'll post an update early next week. I think I support this too
  678. dwd emus, Suggested by, I think, arc. I'm just following that steer.
  679. emus Ah okay, fine 😊
  680. Sam The general idea is that since the XSF is a U.S. based 501c3 non-profit organization, we're in a position where we could accept donations that are earmarked for specific projects we support. That way the donation is tax-deductible for the person making it (because it's to the XSF), and we just have to follow rules around how we distribute it to projects.
  681. Sam There are other projects such as Open Collective that make this easy so the XSF wouldn't have to do any of the hard accounting work or verification or what not.
  682. arc So similar to the software freedom conservancy?
  683. Sam I don't know how they operate, but I suspect so.
  684. ralphm arc: does that mean you know how this works in practice?
  685. dwd I'm in favour of doing this in principle, but I'd like to understand the effort involved, and be assured that the Treasurer in particular was happy.
  686. ralphm ++
  687. Sam I recommend Open Collective (https://opencollective.com/) in particular because they handle all the fancy accounting for you which would probably make the treasurer happy and I believe they would be free for us to use (unless we charged fees to the projects, but I assume we wouldn't do that)
  688. MattJ This is something I've long wanted to see the XSF do (it's one reason I was originally motivated to become a board member), so I support it in principle
  689. MattJ But I'm going to play devil's advocate here: now we're in a world where Open Collective exists, maybe they are better suited? Since that is their sole purpose
  690. arc So the conservancy has member projects, each of which have applied and been accepted. The conservancy manages the bank accounts, takes cut of each donation to pay for a professional accountant, and sometimes manages copyrights
  691. Sam I should say that I don't know how or if this works outside of U.S. projects accepting donations in US Dollars. I know Open Collective can handle it, but I don't know if the XSF needs whatever the EU or UK equivalent of a 501c3 is, for example.
  692. arc Open collective is a different organization yes
  693. MattJ I worry that the XSF as an organization is simply not in a place to take on the responsibility of this role
  694. ralphm Because it requires effort that we collectively haven't shown to have cycles for?
  695. MattJ Correct
  696. dwd Sam, The equivalent in the UK to a 501c3 is a registered charity, and is a complex thing involving the same levels of public accounts as a public listed company.
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  699. arc For a few projects it's not really a big deal. But if we start offering this as a service to projects, it could require having to hire a CPA
  700. Sam I believe this is true if we were to handle all the accounting and money ourselves. However, if we had all the money in open collective they are effectively handling the accounts for us, so all we'd have to do is approve projects.
  701. MattJ We only just manage to reimburse people after events, and we routinely failed to collect funds from sponsors for years (if we're doing that reliably now, it's the first year I think)
  702. arc Of course by that point we would have the cash flow to do that
  703. dwd Sam, I mean, if you want the tax deduction, which works a different way (the charity gets the tax, not the person giving, sort of)
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  705. dwd So to flip this around, could the XSF use the Open Collective or similar to handle donations to it?
  706. arc That kind of depends on the level of donation and who's giving it. Larger corporations lake Cisco absolutely want to see the magic 503c3 seal.
  707. Sam Yes, they also handle reimbursements, so it might be worth evaluating if it would be useful for all XSF money. However, I haven't used it very much for that, so I don't know how good it is.
  708. dwd arc, We can certainly use both of course.
  709. arc What kind of cut does the open collective take?
  710. Sam For us it would be nothing
  711. Sam They make money from fiscal hosts who charge their projects
  712. Sam In which case it's 15% of the fee the fiscal host charges. I assume we wouldn't do that, so it wouldn't cost us except in transaction fees when we make reimbursements and things.
  713. Sam Or transfer money to/from a bank account.
  714. arc Gotcha that is pretty much the industry standard
  715. Sam Those fees are set by banks and governments, so that probably depends a lot.
  716. Sam Of course, we could also charge host fees if the XSF wanted another stream of revenue to fund something, that's up to the board or treasurer I assume.
  717. dwd Sam, So in that case - us using Open Collective to "host" projects - we're effectively whitelabelling Open Collective?
  718. ralphm To be clear, that'd be up to the board or the ED.
  719. Sam dwd: yes, for example, here's my (unused) page for a business I was working on for a while that acts as its own fiscal host: https://opencollective.com/cornergarage
  720. Sam Actually, bad example, let me find something that's active
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  722. Sam Here is social.coop, the Mastodon and BBB service I use: https://opencollective.com/socialcoop
  723. Kev As a question - I think it’s being assumed that the XSF wouldn’t charge for the facility. Should we consider that assumption?
  724. dwd Sam, And what's the difference between the XSF doing this and projects just going direct to the Open Collective?
  725. Sam They don't handle their own money, a platform co-op is their fiscal host: so this is their host: https://opencollective.com/platform6-coop
  726. Sam dwd: Open Collective itself wont' act as a fiscal host, you have to have one with 501c3 status.
  727. dwd Sam, Ah, understood.
  728. Sam They do have a couple of subsidiaries that can act as fiscal hosts if you meet certain requirements. Eg. I believe one of them requires 100 stars on GitHube or a bunch of verification about how active the project is.
  729. Sam But XMPP related projects often can't meet those requirements because it's such a small community.
  730. dwd Sam, So in effect, we're using Open Collective like a bank account?
  731. Sam dwd: yes, more or less. It's a bank account that lets you earmark money for specific projects.
  732. Sam And lets those projects take advantage of the XSF's tax status.
  733. dwd OK, this makes more sense to me now.
  734. Sam It also provides convenient ways for individuals to donate and what not, so it's sort of combining a bank, accounting and reimbursements, and Patreon.
  735. dwd Sam, So for our own, smaller, donations we'd just have a "bucket" for the XSF, under the XSF's name and 501c3 status, but hosted by Open Collective.
  736. dwd Sam, And for, say, Melium, people would be paying into a Mellium bucket which is a Collective bank details thing, but they're paying the XSF under the XSF's 501c3.
  737. Sam Right
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  740. Kev Are there other orgs that offer what the XSF is proposing to do, but not backed by open collective?
  741. ralphm So now we have a bit more insight, what do we still need (to know) to make a decision?
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  743. Sam Kev: yes, this is quite common and lots of places do it out of their own bank account. It just requires knowing accounting things.
  744. Kev Basically asking: Does the XSF need to offer this in order for it to be accessible for XMPP projects, or could they easily already go elsewhere?
  745. Sam I only propose Open Collective because I've used them and their financial tools are very nice to use.
  746. Sam There may be other platforms that help make this easy too, I don't know.
  747. ralphm Kev: so you're not asking if we can take this on ourselves?
  748. dwd Kev, My understanding is that they'd need to go to another 501c3, and this would be difficult to arrange for small projects, which is (broadly) any of the XMPP ones.
  749. Kev Ralphm: I’m asking if us taking it on would add any value over existing offerings.
  750. Sam Oh I'm sorry, I misunderstood.
  751. dwd Kev, My answer was to that question.
  752. Kev I understand from the above that Open Collective wouldn’t make this easy for a small project, so I’m asking if there are alternatives.
  753. Kev dwd: So you’re saying you believe there’s no-one already doing what the XSF would be proposing to do here (either backed by OC or otherwise)?
  754. Kev I’m in favour of this being available to XMPP projects, I’m just wondering if it needs to be the XSF that does it.
  755. dwd Kev, Not quite. I'm saying that you need both a donations-processor (OC) and a 501c3 to "front" for you.
  756. Sam I believe the value in having the XSF do this is that we'd have a fiscal host that's *only* for XMPP related projects that doesn't need to care how big the community is because they're not overloaded with requests from every project on the web, the criteria is "must be XMPP related" so it's a bit more specialized.
  757. Sam Whereas the Software Conservancy or whatever is more general in terms of the software they accept, so they get tons more applications and have to set some limits on how big/small the projects are.
  758. dwd Kev, As Sam says, the difficulty for the project is finding the 501c3 org to front them.
  759. Sam However, there may be others that would be perfect for XMPP projects that I have not found.
  760. Sam Most of them are either general software ones that have strict requirements, or have their own strict requirements (that aren't about XMPP).
  761. ralphm Since I have to go in a few minutes, what next?
  762. Sam Anyways, thanks for your consideration. I'm happy to answer questions or give a demo after the meeting (or whenever).
  763. Kev I suggest a) Is the XSF happy to do this if ‘needed’ and if so b) have someone check it’s needed.
  764. dwd So I'd like to know: * More details (always!) * Treasurer's opinion * How this would play in EU/UK * What other options exist in other regions.
  765. Kev I think it would be quite unfortunate for the XSF to only be able to support US projects, FWIW.
  766. ralphm Sam: would you be able to / like to look into answering some of those questions?
  767. Sam I tend to agree. Perhapse the XSF could partner with Snikket to have that act as a UK/EU charity.
  768. Kev And I’d take everything dwd says as c)
  769. Sam I can try to look into the EU/UK requirements. As far as checking if it's needed I'll reach out to the mailing list and ask I guess.
  770. Sam Is Peter still the treasurer? I can also reach out and ask him.
  771. arc Yes he is
  772. dwd Sam, Snikket is a, erm, kind of Limited Company. Not tax exempt.
  773. Sam oh okay, nevermind then. I'll dig deeper into the EU/UK question then and see what the best way for the XSF to do that would be.
  774. Sam Anyways, "yes", I'll try to answer those questions.
  775. Kev Sam: By ‘needed’ I meant “there’s no sensible alternatives” rather than “people need the facility”, but the latter is probably also good to work out.
  776. Sam Gotcha
  777. arc Most larger sponsors have US offices anyway
  778. Sam I have tried to look into sensible alternatives and wasn't able to find any
  779. Kev Fair enough.
  780. ralphm Ok. Thanks Sam.
  781. Sam Thank you!
  782. ralphm Let's pick this up again when there's more info.
  783. ralphm 5. AOB
  784. ralphm ?
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  787. arc Not from me
  788. ralphm 6. Date of Next
  789. ralphm +1W
  790. ralphm 7. Close
  791. ralphm Thanks all!
  792. ralphm bangs gavel
  793. dwd Thanks!
  794. arc Thanks
  795. Kev Nice to see an active Board meeting :)
  796. emus In terms of ressources: Assume we get this done for US (one step after another before expanding to EU). Once we would hit the spot of "need of hiring" - cant we found this from that status aswell?
  797. dwd emus, Not sure I follow.
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  800. emus Maybe in other words: Sam requested this for US. I think its worth to reach this - we can expand to EU/UK another time and should not overkill the approach with complexity (from scratch). I think its a good idea
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  802. dwd Right. My question over the EU/UK (and, who knows, elsewhere) is that there may be places that would give us a global reach from the start.
  803. Sam Yah, I don't know how many U.S. based projects we actually have. Entirely anecdotally: most XMPP related projects are in the UK/EU.
  804. Sam So it seems worth looking into so that we don't have a collective page with 1 or 2 projects on it forever.
  805. Kev If we wanted to go where it would provide most value soonest, probably the US isn’t the optimal start, but I could be wrong.
  806. Kev We keep talking about setting up an EU presence for the XSF because so much of everything happens this side of the pond.
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  829. emus Yes, I see that, just saying that we shouldn't drown the idea, because we cannot get everything from the start because it turned out to be to complex. Of course having this in EU would be great!
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