XSF Discussion - 2021-04-07

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  50. alexbay218 Is there a place I can get information on xmpp spec? I'm looking at https://xmpp.org/extensions/ and I can't find clear info on how to work with xmpp messages (stanzas?)
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  63. alexbay218 anyone here?
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  87. menel alexbay218: I think most will wake up in a few hours.. But isn't it in the core what you seek? https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html
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  89. alexbay218 I see, I got there eventually, but I'm wondering if I'm missing some sort of tutorial that more easily explains it. Reading full specifications is pretty dry
  90. menel There are some devs in this room.. Maybe they know some tutorial website.. But its early in the morning in Europe and late in the US east cost
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  92. alexbay218 figured, I'll ask later
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  175. Ge0rG Now I wonder... are my Last Call responses so long that nobody is going to read them? Maybe I should just strategically bring up the most important point only, and then -1 the XEP so that I can bring up the second most important point in the year after? :D
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  178. Ge0rG jonas’: AOB for today, or maybe just for you with your Editor hat: would it make sense to collect CVEs related to XEPs in a XEPs meta-data / Security Considerations / somewhere?
  179. jonas’ yes
  180. jonas’ or maybe
  181. jonas’ CVEs are for implementations, so it’ll be interesting to find a good clear cut of when a CVE should be mentioned in the XEP or not…
  182. jonas’ but in case of '280, heck yeah, add it
  183. Ge0rG did you just say DOAP?
  184. Ge0rG I'm also looking at 0313
  185. jonas’ did I miss something there?
  186. Ge0rG 0297 Security Considerations are rather clear OTOH
  187. Ge0rG jonas’: https://monal.im/blog/cve-2020-26547/
  188. jonas’ Ge0rG, that’s 280 tho
  189. Ge0rG jonas’: it's MAM and Carbons, as well as https://gultsch.de/dino_multiple.html
  190. jonas’ ok, the description on the page only says carbons
  191. Ge0rG "Monal before 4.9 does not implement proper sender verification on *MAM* and Message Carbon (XEP-0280) results."
  192. jonas’ yeah, those CVEs should probably be linked as an example for '280, '313 and also '297, because people don’t seem to get it.
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  196. Ge0rG Yeah, but the Security Considerations typically already contain wording saying that "you must not". And still, people don't get it. Or don't read them. I'm not sure how to improve the developer-experience here
  197. Ge0rG short of a Huge Red Blinking Marquee
  198. jonas’ CVE numbers are scary
  199. Ge0rG only if you see them
  200. jonas’ yes, hence add them to the security considerations of all those documents
  201. Ge0rG I suppose it would make sense to have some plumbing for adding CVEs, making it possible to auto-extract them in some way?
  202. jonas’ maybe, PRs welcome ;)
  203. jonas’ I imagine this to be tricky though
  204. Ge0rG like a `<cve number="2020-26547" uri="https://monal.im/blog/cve-2020-26547/">Improper verification of MAM and Carbons in Monal before 4.9</cve>`
  205. jonas’ I wouldn’t want to associate them to document metadata directly, because in most cases it’s not a problem with the document, but a problem with implementations.
  206. jonas’ so having a list of CVEs on a XEP gives the wrong impression
  207. Ge0rG Yeah, I'm speaking of a template for stuffing it into the body and rendering
  208. jonas’ and havnig a list of <cve/> elements in the header and then making xep.xsl inject those in the security considerations section is breaking lots of abstractions
  209. jonas’ ok, yeah
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  211. jonas’ somewhat like link/footnote etc
  212. Ge0rG Yeah
  213. jonas’ go for it I’d say, we can discuss it in council if need be. we might learn that it’s a board matter though, not quite sure
  214. Ge0rG Probably better than https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0223.html#revision-history-v1.1
  215. jonas’ (though I’d argue it’s an editor matter)
  216. Ge0rG Then there is also the last sentence of https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0373.html#security
  217. dwd I'm in favour of including CVEs encountered in implementing XEPs in those XEPs, whichever hat I'm wearing.
  218. Ge0rG dwd: but what if you are not wearing any hat?
  219. dwd Even then.
  220. dwd I'd actually be fine with information notes pointing to implementation dicussion on the Wiki, too, thinking about it.
  221. Ge0rG Does anybody volunteer to create an XML template?
  222. Ge0rG dwd: I think that's why we created https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Category:Spec_Remarks but it might be non-trivial to do an automatic redirect from XEP title to mediawiki slug
  223. Ge0rG especially if the slug isn't consistent
  224. dwd Ge0rG, I'm thinking manual works for now.
  225. jonas’ Ge0rG, you just did, didn’t you? :)
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  228. Ge0rG jonas’: I'd love to, but who's going to plow my snow?
  229. jonas’ your laptop which you’re holding in the snow while running the test build with the new xsl file!
  230. jonas’ win-win!
  231. dwd Ge0rG, Is that a euphemism?
  232. Ge0rG jonas’: unfortunately, my new laptop is very energy efficient.
  233. Ge0rG dwd: whatever floats your boat!
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  237. dwd Ge0rG, Is *that* a euphemism?
  238. dwd Maybe it's euphemisms all the way down.
  239. Ge0rG dwd: it always is.
  240. dwd Maybe the turtles are a euphemism.
  241. Ge0rG What are the turtles a euphemism for? For turtles?
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  243. dwd You may have just blown my mind.
  244. jonas’ is that an euphemism?
  245. dwd jonas’, No, just a metaphor.
  246. Kev It’s like an explosion in his brain-cage.
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  252. Ge0rG Aren't euphemisms a subset of metaphors?
  253. dwd A subset *and* a superset.
  254. dwd (It's possible that only Kev will get that reference...)
  255. Kev But he did, so that’s alright
  256. Ge0rG dwd: I suppose that your statement isn't based on set theory.
  257. Kev Ge0rG: Someone once claimed that their implementation of a XEP was both a superset and a subset of the functionality.
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  259. Ge0rG Kev: that's not a bad statement actually
  260. Kev Not as long as they meant that it was an exact implementation of the XEP. They didn’t.
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  263. dwd "Sure, we don't do that mandatory thing, but we do this other thing instead so we're still conformant, right?"
  264. Ge0rG Well, handling it right requires a certain understanding of set theory, yes.
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  425. Guus I got questions asked in context of a standard that defines some kind of uniform data transfer over XMPP, that I am unfamiliar with: IEC 61850-8-2. When I google for the standards, I find various applications of Openfire (eg: electricity grid management over XMPP). Anyone familiar with that standard?
  426. Zash Only aware that there's some grid management RFC involving XMPP.
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  487. flow i think that's a different grid
  488. flow the IEC standards deal mostly with power girds I'd assume
  489. flow but no familarity here, cause I don't have the bucks to pay for that standard (and I am also unable to retrieve it via my university)
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  514. dwd Zash, I think *that* grid is for the Cyberzz, whereas the IEC one is for the Leccy Grid, as we say here.
  515. Zash Wat
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  518. dwd Zash, The RFCs as I recall do Cyber Threat Information Exchange, whereas the IEC one does - I think - electricity grid management.
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  521. dwd Zash, Possibly interconnect management. Your country's power controlled by Openfire.
  522. dwd Zash, And probably version three point something ancient.
  523. vanitasvitae EPOX - Electric Power over XMPP
  524. Kev dwd: I couldn’t be more scared.
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  526. Kev I mean, I tried, but my power failed.
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  532. Guus badum-tisssssh
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  663. Ge0rG jonas’: I wanted to push a PR on gitlab, but gitlab/main is two months out of date
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  665. Ge0rG Well, now it looks like I created it on my own repository. Well done.
  666. Ge0rG jonas’: rendering build is running on https://gitlab.com/ge0rg/xeps/-/merge_requests/1 - code is also on https://github.com/ge0rg/xeps/tree/cve
  667. Ge0rG rendered version also at https://op-co.de/tmp/xep-0280.html#security - feel free to bash
  668. Ge0rG I'm not sure if this is enough or if the format should have a caption that contains a title and a text area that contains a description.
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  887. deuill https://drewdevault.com/2021/04/07/The-next-chat-app.html
  888. deuill Should... should somebody tell him?
  889. Zash Sam already did: https://lists.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/public-inbox/%3C08dd6c3d-b9f6-4b50-83b1-3fedbb763de8%40www.fastmail.com%3E
  890. deuill Hah, I, of course, didn't expect much of it.
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  892. moparisthebest I don't get it, when I come up with a great idea and find someone else already implemented it for me I'm delighted I don't have to do any work :)
  893. ben i thought he was describing xmpp too...
  894. ben i bugged him about it on irc and wouldn't even consider it at all becuase xml and it "already failed"
  895. deuill It's a shame since people look up to Drew, or at least seem to admire the tenacity, but there's two sides to that apparently.
  896. deuill If you disregard the actual technical/implementation aspects of XMPP, the fact remains that the collection of RFCs and XEPs describe in great detail the *semantics* of a federated, extensible communication protocol.
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  899. deuill I find it hard to believe that any other federated system won't end up walking down the same paths in many ways.
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  919. ben 100%
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  958. Ge0rG Unless that other federated system is just a marketing plot of a startup company?
  959. Zash Email? Hm, I don't think so.
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  966. Ge0rG > I'm converting more and more people from other messengers to come join me on @matrixdotorg. Clearly the best choice if you want something that's OSS + open-standards-based and federated *and* not requiring a phone number as a primary identifier (I always found that sooo dumb). https://twitter.com/juliusvolz/status/1379891845229117452
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  975. wgreenhouse > Sam already did: https://lists.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/public-inbox/%3C08dd6c3d-b9f6-4b50-83b1-3fedbb763de8%40www.fastmail.com%3E :facepalm:
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