XSF Discussion - 2021-04-08


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  505. deuill I think Snikket is doing it right and not focusing on appeasing people with technical opinions.
  506. moparisthebest yes! people with technical opinions can set up their own stuff :)
  507. deuill I can't remember if I've asked this before, but has there been any research on an alternative, state-less C2S protocol? Something perhaps easier to implement on iOS or Android?
  508. Zash mod_rest?
  509. Daniel Define research
  510. deuill Well, anything perhaps as concrete as an experimental XEP (though not sure if an XEP would cut it).
  511. moparisthebest I'm more curious about the definition of "state-less" :)
  512. deuill Anything that doesn't require a long-lived TCP connection, where no existing state is assumed to exist beyond what is exchanged in requests.
  513. Zash So HTTP REST like Matrix?
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  515. moparisthebest matrix and everything else requires a long-lived TCP connection too no? the push notifications are that
  516. deuill HTTP is state-less yeah, though it wouldn't need to be HTTP. It can still be XML, but where no state is assumed to have been previously established (or where you have session identifiers passed around etc.)
  517. moparisthebest but "state" is something like "I know of so many messages, and want to know about ones I don't yet know about" so none of that is stateless
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  520. Zash Yeah you need to have that state somewhere
  521. Kev Technically BOSH can be used in polling mode, but … you don’t want to do that.
  522. Zash Say to yourself "IP is stateless, we use TCP over IP, therefore it is stateless"
  523. deuill Right, I should clarify -- HTTP is technically state-less since state is application-level, and there's no connection-level state assumed HTTP3 doesnt't even use TCP yet retains the same semantics.
  524. Sam moparisthebest: I think he means that the connection is stateless, not that the client literally stores nothing.
  525. Daniel A perhaps better way to think about it is atomic operations. Being able to send a message without doing tons of stuff beforehand
  526. moparisthebest so the problem then is how does the other end notify you of new messages ?
  527. deuill Whereas XMPP currently assumes connection-level state and doesn't need to pass around session identifiers with every stanza etc.
  528. moparisthebest I think you either 1) keep a connection open permanently 2) poll for updates
  529. moparisthebest and #2 kills battery and is slow
  530. Kev Well, there’s something in between, isn’t there.
  531. moparisthebest is there?
  532. Kev It is not difficult to have a long-lived TCP connection in a running Android or iOS application. The problem is maintaining one in the background.
  533. Kev And what you need to do in the background is definitely not the same as what you need to do while in the foreground.
  534. moparisthebest both android and ios keep a long-lived TCP connection open in the background for push notifications
  535. Kev So Push notifications received by the device triggering a short-lived poll, while the application in the foreground using a long-lived connection doesn’t seem particularly undesirable to me.
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  538. moparisthebest I wonder if QUIC alone simply solves this ?
  539. Kev I don’t see why it would.
  540. deuill Hm, does iOS/Android prevent you from listening on TCP/UDP yourself?
  541. moparisthebest can you keep open a QUIC connection across application sleeps on android/ios ? probably ???
  542. moparisthebest it roams across different networks for free, so no worry about waking up on LTE or a different wifi network
  543. Zash That doesn't magically remove Apples policy that you can't have nice things like open connections in the background, does it?
  544. deuill Well, QUIC is an application protocol built on UDP, I guess with XMPP we'd look to build on top of those technologies.
  545. deuill HTTP 3 today, anyways.
  546. moparisthebest at an XMPP level you can basically assume QUIC is TCP that you don't necessarily have to do stream management etc on
  547. moparisthebest in theory, you set up your QUIC connection once and just use it every time push notifications wake you up ?
  548. Zash You probably want to anyway
  549. Daniel What atomic operations (or rest like things) do is that a 'give me my latest messages' or 'send this message' is a lot quicker
  550. Daniel Compared with doing the starttls, bind, mam dance
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  553. moparisthebest so if QUIC cuts out all the starttls/bind etc stuff, then you can just send those type of requests quickly ?
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  556. deuill I was trying to think of this from a different perspective -- it would be cool if we could deploy XMPP servers on FaaS platforms (of course, C2S is only one side of the equation...), as these typically have CPU time quotas that preclude from having things like long-running connections going.
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  560. Kev Daniel: Yes. I don’t believe this would be a bad thing. But, then, I’m coming to the conclusion that a full JMAP-like setup wouldn’t be a bad thing either.
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  562. Zash direct tls and bind2?
  563. deuill So you could, in theory, invert the relationship (though I'm not sure if this is possible): client listens for server messages over TCP or UDP. Is NAT an issue there?
  564. moparisthebest to the OS, QUIC is not a long-running connection right ?
  565. moparisthebest it's just an application sending a UDP packet every now and then
  566. Daniel Kev: I'm not sure that jmap specifically maps well to instant messaging
  567. Kev Daniel: No, I don’t mean literally JMAP, I just mean JMAP-like.
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  569. deuill Yeah my impression is that QUIC/HTTP3 is "just" packets over UDP.
  570. moparisthebest TFW jmap does not map to jabber
  571. deuill jmabber
  572. Daniel Kev: yes that I fully agree with
  573. moparisthebest deuill, nitpicking here but QUIC is not necessarily HTTP3, HTTP3 just runs over QUIC
  574. Kev mparisthebest: You’re suggesting that we should have jabbermap, which would be a jmap-like mapping onto XMPP? :)
  575. Sam Second obligatory pitch for the "Towards XMPP 2.0" roundtable next week :)
  576. moparisthebest I guess I'm saying what if XMPP 1.0 over QUIC just gives you XMPP 2.0 for free :P
  577. Kev When we started work on our web client a while ago, I *strongly* considered just building something like JMAP into M-Link and having our web client talk that instead of XMPP.
  578. Kev moparisthebest: I think there is no question that it won’t do that :)
  579. Kev “XMPP 2.0” is a vague term, but it definitely implies more than just solving C2S unreliability and cost.
  580. deuill I guess an easier question to answer would be, could you conceivably run XMPP over a UDP connection?
  581. moparisthebest well ok maybe it only gives you XMPP 1.9 beta, still might solve most of these type of problems
  582. deuill C2S connections at least.
  583. moparisthebest not pure UDP, you need reliability and such, but QUIC sure
  584. Kev deuill: Yes, you can, if by “UDP” you mean “HTTP3"
  585. moparisthebest (which to the OS is simply UDP, but to XMPP is TLS)
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  587. Daniel Kev: does the isode mail server do jmap?
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  590. Kev It doesn’t.
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  592. Kev I’m not on that team, and I don’t remember why that wasn’t the way the web messaging client went (I’m not calling it a web email client, because … calling stuff email is complicated :))
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  594. Kev (I imagine that I had opinions at the time, on the team or not, I just don’t remember)
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  599. deuill You're absolutely right BTW, for some reason I thought QUIC had been deprecated, but it was actually SPDY. I need to get on my acronym game.
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  601. deuill QUIC is the transport protocol.
  602. Sam Is the board meeting not happening this week?
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  606. moparisthebest in an ideal world, both XMPP and HTTP3 would sit on top of QUIC in the same, next to each other in other words
  607. moparisthebest in the real world we live in, it might make sense for XMPP to sit on top of HTTP3 in the anticipation of evil middleboxen only allowing HTTP
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  609. moparisthebest I plan to start digging into this soonish
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  619. deuill That's awesome!
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  721. Daniel Question to the office hours participants: would you be interested in a talk about JMAP?
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  723. Daniel (and how awesome json over http is)
  724. vanitasvitae Daniel: I'd be up for it
  725. moparisthebest I would, couldn't hurt to know more about it
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  732. edhelas JSON is the new XML (?)
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  734. Zash CBOR is the new JSON!!!!1eleven
  735. Zash And then eventually we'll be back to X.509 DER & co
  736. Zash And then eventually we'll be back to ASN.1* DER & co
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  744. Sam I'd love to know more about it, so yes!
  745. dwd Sam, You want to know more about DER? Can I tell you the good news about PER?
  746. Sam I meant JMAP, but honestly I've been trying to figure out the various X.509 encoding things, DER and PEM and what not forever, so that would probably be good too.
  747. Zash I've mentally classified JMAP as "interesting but why must everything be HTTP and JSON?"
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  750. dwd Sam, PEM is just base64-encoded DER with some headers and footers.
  751. dwd Sam, The more complicated format is PKCS#12, which is an encrypted container holding a private key and a corresponding certificate chain, and I think a potential bunch of other stuff too.
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  753. Sam oh yah, I forgot about that one
  754. Kev Zash:Unless I misremember significantly, JMAP doesn’t have to be HTTP in principle, it’s not using the HTTP verbs or whatever, it’s just a transport protocol for a sequence of commands. So you could websocket it or TCP it or even XMPP it if you were particularly perverse.
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  756. Zash Sure, the general command and processing model is interesting.
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  759. Kev I think you could probably use different object definitions and end up with XMPP over JMAP and it’d probably be ‘fine’.
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  794. emus Daniel: please go ahead, the list is not yet crowded anyway?
  795. emus Sam: ?
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  798. Sam I was summoned?
  799. emus Sam: No, about the question
  800. Sam What question?
  801. emus Is the XOH calendar very full yet?
  802. Sam There are infinity many weeks left.
  803. Sam (we hope)
  804. emus sure
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  841. raghavgururajan Why IETF should keep XMPP as IM standard, instead of Matrix? [https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/Cj7n-7HwsN8xBzXCjD1pjD1j9Cg/]
  842. raghavgururajan * (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/Cj7n-7HwsN8xBzXCjD1pjD1j9Cg/)
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