XSF Discussion - 2021-04-12

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02:52:36 moparisthebest wgreenhouse: XMPP messages can cross multiple lines though
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03:23:26 wgreenhouse moparisthebest: I'm aware; should've said no more than one message per line :)
03:23:47 wgreenhouse (the MAM output I grabbed isn't pretty printed or anything)
03:29:39 ben what format is it in?
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03:33:57 wgreenhouse ben: it's just all the xml stanzas from the MAM archive, in one xml file without a DTD, in between <message-archive xmlns="https://linkmauve.fr/protocol/pie-mam"> ... </message-archive>
03:34:36 wgreenhouse without linebreaks, except where there happen to be linebreaks in a message body
03:35:15 ben you could probably rig something up with the tools in html-xml-utils like hxselect or hxprune
03:35:19 ben maybe even hxpipe
03:37:02 wgreenhouse hmmmmmm
03:37:03 moparisthebest A proper way may be an xpath query sent to xmllint --pattern ?
03:37:30 moparisthebest But you could probably just sed out the XML...
03:37:41 ben ah yeah xmllint could probably do it too
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03:38:32 wgreenhouse would want to preserve the from, to, and stamp tags, but the rest can be discarded
03:39:59 moparisthebest sed can match and replace :)
03:42:51 wgreenhouse I thought parsing xml in re brought about the coming of zalgo ;)
03:43:01 wgreenhouse but thanks both, this gives me some to chew on
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03:45:12 ben yeah it might, but if your schema is regular/small you will probably be fine
03:45:14 moparisthebest Sorry your requirements didn't say "I want this to work without summoning demons"
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03:49:02 wgreenhouse ;)
03:49:30 wgreenhouse that said, what hxpipe makes for this file looks friendly to re search/replace
03:53:35 ben nice
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09:10:00 Holger Does XEP-0077 support registration with an empty password?
09:10:11 jonas’ I guess you could just do <password/>, no?
09:11:01 Holger Yes #3.1 says "the <password/> element MAY be empty". But later:
09:11:04 Holger > If the requesting entity does not provide all of the requested information during registration [7] then the server or service MUST return a <not-acceptable/> error to the requesting entity.
09:11:21 Holger Footnote [7] says:
09:11:23 Holger > This includes providing an empty password element or a password element that contains no XML character data, i.e., either <password/> or <password></password>.
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09:12:08 Holger Regarding password _change_, the XEP is clear:
09:12:09 jonas’ ISTM that the footnote is worded poorly
09:12:10 Holger > If the user provides an empty password element or a password element that contains no XML character data (i.e., either <password/> or <password></password>), the server or service MUST NOT change the password to a null value, but instead MUST maintain the existing password.
09:12:15 jonas’ aaagh
09:12:18 jonas’ confusing!
09:12:20 jonas’ I give up
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09:17:55 dwd Huh. Both <password/> and <password></password> are the same thing.
09:18:39 Kev And it says they’re to be treated the same, doesn’t it?
09:18:40 Holger Sure, I don't think the XEP says otherwise?
09:18:51 Holger Question is, how to treat them :-)
09:19:14 Ge0rG Is it like NULL, None, "" and False are the same thing?
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09:19:38 Holger They must be treated the _same_. But _how_?
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09:56:37 lovetox when registering (not password change), i dont see how the client would need to care how the server treats an empty password
09:57:12 lovetox what i wonder is, can i do auth with an empty password?
09:57:29 dwd Empty string as password? Sure.
09:57:41 Holger lovetox: My question was how the server is supposed to treat it though :-)
09:58:21 lovetox Holger, i would say if its not a valid password according to your policy decline it
09:58:25 lovetox otherwise go with it
09:58:42 lovetox or does that lead to a problem?
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09:58:57 Holger Well the question is whether empty passwords are supposed to be supported by the spec. If so it would obviously still be a policy decision of the admin, yes.
09:59:30 lovetox ok is this a theoretical question, or is there an actual use case behind that?
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10:00:21 Holger Well I'm touching this part of our 0077 code and was interested in whether I'm supposed to support the empty password case.
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10:00:48 edhelas this remind me that I have to do my ejabberd upgrade 🤔
10:00:52 lovetox i would not, because probably many clients dont support that
10:00:52 edhelas !version movim.eu
10:00:53 Holger If I had the answer to this question I could still decide whether or not to follow the spec. But seems the answer isn't obvious so I can just decide on my own :-)
10:01:37 lovetox or i would wait until someone comes and at least asks for that with a concrete use case, and how clients and server are expected to act
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10:02:40 jonas’ Holger, FWIW, I’d hide allowing empty passwords behind a huge red button labelled "world destruction"
10:03:08 Holger lovetox: Yes yes I'll survive without clarification. I just had this weird idea that one of our core specs dealing with passwords could be clear on the topic of empty passwords :-)
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10:03:47 jonas’ :D
10:04:31 Holger I think we'll just reject them, partly to remain consistent with the password change case where empty passwords are explicitly not supported.
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12:02:01 Sam Reminder: Office hours are tomorrow. This week is a round table discussion "Towards XMPP 2.0" https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_Office_Hours
12:02:35 Sam 13th April, 16:00 UTC as always
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12:39:43 Kev I don’t know if it’ll work out, but I’ll try to make this one.
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16:53:30 mathieui Sam, would it be acceptable to open a peertube channel that mirrors the videos available on youtube? (asking as I saw the new yt channel in the newsletter, we’re bound to have people asking why it’s only on youtube)
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16:53:47 mathieui (I am not asking you to do it at all, but asking for permission if I find the time to set it up)
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16:55:27 Sam mathieui: we've gotten a lot of that already :) I'm not against it, we just need someone who knows how to set all that up to do it. I couldn't find a good instance that actually had open registration, and don't want to do more work myself for something that's not likely to be widely used, so automatic sync would be nice.
16:55:39 Sam Go for it as far as I'm concerned :)
16:55:44 mathieui Ok, thanks!
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18:43:46 emus Yes, usually it is not that we dont want it, but lag resources or have technical limitations (unless we invest more resources)
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19:59:09 deuill On the subject of XMPP 2.0, I wonder why Jabber/XMPP was never really adopted for open source projects setting up public chats? IRC had (*really*) early-mover advantage, but it can't all be that...
20:01:08 deuill You need a server/account to host a MUC? MUC doesn't scale to more than a couple hundred participants? IRC was good enough?
20:02:01 L29Ah #nolibs
20:02:27 L29Ah irc is implemented in half an hour, while xmpp is, well...
20:03:29 deuill That doesn't matter when you're a user, right? That is, I'm more wondering, would something like Freenode for XMPP be able to exist then? Now?
20:04:50 L29Ah ah, i misinterpreted the question for embedded chats
20:04:56 deuill There's still a definite need for this, considering, ehm, IRC is still widely used, even with a lot of projects moving off to Discord/Gitter/Zulip/Mattermost/whatever.
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20:06:07 deuill There's still a definite need for this, considering that, ehm, IRC is still widely used, even with a lot of projects moving off to Discord/Gitter/Zulip/Mattermost/whatever.
20:06:10 Sam Freenode considered switching to XMPP at one point, I think. I don't know the details though, but maybe you could find their reasons
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20:08:18 deuill Hah, interesting, I use Freenode as an example though, mainly because it is (was?) the default choice when you wanted to set up a room for your project.
20:09:00 MattJ I spoke with some Freenode folk a year or two back. I got the impression that it was mostly just resources and need of a concrete plan
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20:09:46 L29Ah i don't recall having an IRC frontend for XMPP MUCs
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20:11:15 moparisthebest they exist but thar be dragons https://github.com/moparisthebest/xmpp-ircd
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20:14:35 Zash Outch, owie, my nightmares
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20:22:30 wgreenhouse > You need a server/account to host a MUC? MUC doesn't scale to more than a couple hundred participants? IRC was good enough? maybe the fact that fewer xmpp clients support anonymous login, whereas (at least in the past) most big irc support channels don't need a registered account
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20:31:44 deuill Yeah, the ease-of-setup aspect here is crucial I think, even as an operator. Find a channel name that's not used, *boom* you're a moderator.
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20:47:45 Ge0rG Well, installing and configuring an irc client for a given network, with servers limiting who may connect by geoip, is quite a challenge. I'm not sure how much easier it is than xmpp
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20:48:47 wgreenhouse geoip or open proxy bans today certainly make it harder to get started on irc. but 10-15 years ago I think it was simpler to get started without an "account"
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20:49:04 wgreenhouse path dependence is important too of course
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20:50:25 wgreenhouse deuill true, though nowadays it's pretty easy to create a MUC on [arbitrary server] maybe not even the same one where you have your own account
20:50:42 wgreenhouse and it can be made persistent without the need of ChanServ, or someone with a good enough connection to sit on the channel
20:51:19 wgreenhouse possibly in the past, when there were fewer public XMPP instances outside of proprietary installations, that was less true
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20:52:30 Zash Too much choice doesn't make it easier. Like, if you're a free software project then you'd probably go for something on Freenode, but in the XMPP world, where would you go?
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21:11:38 wgreenhouse good question. esp since current trends advise people to scatter
21:12:07 wgreenhouse (e.g. formerly big public instances like jabber.ccc.de saying "go somewhere else")
21:13:17 Ge0rG Also having an easy to deploy web chat is a good thing
21:13:37 Ge0rG I've heard that yax.im is breaking apart under the load...
21:14:52 Sam Ge0rG: wait, is that a joke that I don't get or are you having load problems? I'm curious because I've been pointing people there when they ask
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21:15:40 Ge0rG Sam: https://yaxim.org/blog/2021/04/09/vaxbot-performance-challenge/
21:15:41 mathieui Sam, you are from now on named "sole source of yax.im performance problems"
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21:16:54 Sam oh cool, thanks for the link. Reading.
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21:20:15 Ge0rG Well, at least I have some prosody performance numbers now.
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21:23:08 MattJ Some SQLite performance numbers :)
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21:24:17 mathieui the best ones
21:25:02 Ge0rG MattJ: well, do you have comparison numbers of different MAM backends from production?
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21:26:01 MattJ No, we've not run such tests on a production server
21:26:41 Ge0rG So how am I supposed to decide, what to replace sqlite with?
21:26:50 MattJ Just saying, I think the conclusion was that you reached the limits of SQLite on your hardware, right? (unless we give up some consistency guarantees)
21:27:51 Ge0rG Yes, and it looks like psql will give me roughly 3x the performance, but that's from synthetic benchmarks
21:27:55 MattJ We have performance tests, I guess you can try running them on your server (it doesn't actually have to be the running Prosody instance)
21:28:32 Ge0rG I'd love to
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21:29:18 Ge0rG &
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