XSF Discussion - 2021-05-07


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  446. Sam

    Ge0rG: would you be interested in doing an Office Hours about the traffic you've seen on your server due to Vaxbot and how you monitor / resolve it? Doesn't have to be anything formal, just a quick talk about how your monitoring setup works and some of the things you've tried to do to keep the service stable

  447. Sam

    Just something along the lines of your blog post

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  506. marek

    > Ge0rG: would you be interested in doing an Office Hours about the traffic you've seen on your server due to Vaxbot and how you monitor / resolve it? Doesn't have to be anything formal, just a quick talk about how your monitoring setup works and some of the things you've tried to do to keep the service stable > Just something along the lines of your blog post I have also seen the question or more an offer of another server admin to spread the load via his server.

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  614. emus

    The deployment worked finally: https://xmpp.org/2021/04/newsletter-04-april/

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  635. Ge0rG

    marek: I'm interested in a server provider offering IBR without captcha as a fallback server.

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  664. emus

    Hello and good Friday ❤️ The XMPP Newsletter on April has been published - again it would be fine if one could make a tweet based on this: https://fosstodon.org/web/statuses/106195170518281226

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  667. lovetox

    251

  668. lovetox

    4

  669. lovetox

    '*

  670. Zash

    Kids or cats?

  671. lovetox

    please forgive me :/

  672. lovetox

    my kid

  673. lovetox

    :D

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  699. moparisthebest

    so XEP-0352 doesn't give any indication (pun intended) of what stanzas should be dropped, which should be delayed, or really anything else in the implementation right?

  700. MattJ

    XEP-0352 is not about dropping, delaying or anything else, no

  701. moparisthebest

    shouldn't that be defined in places other than various server implementations ? :/ (they also don't seem to remotely agree)

  702. MattJ

    It's purely a signal to the server about the client's current state

  703. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: please read the servers and write an Informational XEP

  704. MattJ

    What servers do with that info is their business. If you want to try to spec some optimizations, go for it :)

  705. Ge0rG

    I hate all these hand-wavy "implementation defined behavior" XEPs.

  706. moparisthebest

    there are, eh, semi-security considerations that exist with these implementations

  707. moparisthebest

    maybe not security, but I don't know how else to say it

  708. moparisthebest

    I think it'd be easy to regularly send silent stanzas to mucs and drain everyone's battery

  709. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: you can do that without any XEPs.

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  712. moparisthebest

    but you can't document that in XEP-0352 because it doesn't say you should do anything at all

  713. MattJ

    What would you even document?

  714. MattJ

    There will always be stanzas that need to be forwarded

  715. moparisthebest

    probably advice for both servers and clients

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  718. moparisthebest

    stanzas with bodies will be displayed, not silent, no big deal

  719. MattJ

    and optimizations will only help, they're not the problem here

  720. MattJ

    Pretend 352 doesn't exist, and servers have no optimisations. The same silent stanzas will have the same behaviour...

  721. moparisthebest

    stanzas with https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0380.html with an unknown type might be simply dropped by clients, but forwarded by servers, that's a silent battery eater

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  725. moparisthebest

    so the advice would either be for servers to drop ones without valid formats, or for clients to always display something on such a thing

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  728. Zash

    If silently wasting battery is an attack, then let me tell you about xep 199

  729. MattJ

    :)

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  731. moparisthebest

    yes, that too, the advice for that would likely just be don't have mucs forward that, do they now ?

  732. MattJ

    You can't broadcast iqs, but MUCs would usually forward those sent to occupant JIDs

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  737. Zash

    ... to the full JID

  738. Zash

    Unless it's one of the special iq stanzas that get redirected to the bare JID

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  740. Zash

    Unless it's not implemented like that and instead the server handles full JID iqs

  741. Zash

    Unless ...

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  749. moparisthebest

    so what we need is a bot that can join MUCs and do everything that can possibly eat all the member's batteries silently? :)

  750. L29Ah

    challenge accepted!

  751. MattJ

    Please include OOB URLs to infinite HTTP streams

  752. moparisthebest

    that's probably interesting outside of MUCs too, probably all sorts of silent stanzas you can send to a known JID constantly

  753. moparisthebest

    ooh nice MattJ

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  756. moparisthebest

    like an http server that responds to HEAD requests with an endless stream of random headers ?

  757. Zash

    That's actually perfectly legal.

  758. Zash

    Thanks HTTP!

  759. Zash

    IIRC the standards-mandated limits are ... per header...

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  761. moparisthebest

    the question is how does your average HTTP library handle it

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  763. L29Ah

    OOM on sight

  764. moparisthebest

    I'm going to assume most of them handle it by eating memory until they explode

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  767. Zash

    Probably. You go have fun now. 🙂

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  774. moparisthebest

    ( echo -en 'HTTP/1.1 200 OK\r\nConnection: keep-alive\r\n'; while true; do echo -en 'bla: bla\r\n'; done ) | nc -l 8080 -w 1

  775. moparisthebest

    command line curl handles it fine by buffering nothing I guess

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  805. moparisthebest

    and to test servers: ( echo -en 'GET / HTTP/1.1\r\nHost: www.moparisthebest.com\r\nUser-Agent: curl/7.76.0\r\nAccept: */*\r\n'; while true; do echo -en 'bla: bla\r\n'; done ) | nc -4 www.moparisthebest.com 80

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  807. moparisthebest

    nginx responds with 400 Bad Request "400 Request Header Or Cookie Too Large"

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  811. Zash

    pro-tip: `nc -C` if you have a version with that flag

  812. Zash

    to translate \n → \r\n

  813. moparisthebest

    I never know if a given machine has BSD or GNU nc :(

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  817. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest [20:49]: > stanzas with https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0380.html with an unknown type might be simply dropped by clients, but forwarded by servers, that's a silent battery eater I'd love to have a server side filter that would drop all elements not listed in a client's disco features

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  820. Zash

    Ge0rG: I tried something like that, tho it may have involved filtering stuff from presence. Vague memory of it causing breakage.

  821. moparisthebest

    I wonder how many stanzas clients receive in practice that they ignore, or at least end up invisible to the user

  822. MattJ

    Very many

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  824. Zash

    If you're in a bunch of public channels, oh so much presence

  825. eta

    I need to install that prosody CSI module that just drops presence on the floor

  826. Zash

    Violates protocol and expectations, not recommended

  827. moparisthebest

    what prompted all of this was a person complaining in a muc about how much battery his conversations used, I counted that I'm in 53 mucs and mine hardly uses any battery, but there are so many things it could be I don't even know where to start

  828. Zash

    Tho maybe that got fixed so the dropped stanzas don't count in 198

  829. Zash

    moparisthebest: and did they check that CSI is enabled?

  830. moparisthebest

    yes but they use ejabberd, which at a glance does entirely different things than prosody's mod_csi_simple

  831. eta

    I constantly suspect conversations uses more battery than it lets on

  832. Zash

    IIRC the most common wake up reason for me is client activity in the form of periodic pings, and their responses

  833. moparisthebest

    it seems like the battery % android gives is utterly dependent on your rom, vendor, version, the color of the sky, and everything else too; but that's a different can of worms

  834. eta

    the issue I have is I suspect conversations is waking up for every irrelevant MUC message

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  836. Zash

    I've got a thing for that, so I can mark MUCs as "unimportant" and then those won't trigger CSI flush

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  839. Zash

    I would like to have that tied into Something in the future, possibly some bookmarks2 mini-extension.

  840. eta

    Zash: I saw that module, but it requires manually marking them all as unimportant

  841. eta

    I want them to be like, default unimportant

  842. eta

    (and important if it's a modern XMPP "groupchat" instead of "channel")

  843. Zash

    eta, you and me both

  844. eta

    the latter part requires more trickery though

  845. Zash

    But I'm told this doesn't work for Normal Users

  846. eta

    I've also done the radicalish thing of using bookmarks2 everywhere

  847. eta

    with hacked up Dino and conversations

  848. Zash

    If there were a way to distinguish "groupchat" from "channel" based on only the stuff you see on join... but you don't afaik

  849. eta

    yeah exactly

  850. eta

    well, no, invite only is a good one

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  852. eta

    but I guess that's in data forms

  853. Zash

    which would require that the module do a disco, which is certainly possible, but complicates it a bit

  854. eta

    hence trickery

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  859. Zash

    but that may not be a perfect method either

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  863. eta

    how easy is querying bookmarks2

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  865. Zash

    I mean, basing it only on whether a particular MUC is "channel" or "groupchat", but it could certainly be used as a default.

  866. Zash

    Some property saved by clients in BM2 would be nicer.

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  869. eta

    Zash: I have a conversations commit that saves such a property :p

  870. Zash

    Neat

  871. eta

    mainly because I got tired of having to reconfigure notification prefs

  872. eta

    when it used to eat the database

  873. eta

    this required patching Dino to not instantly clobber the property when the bookmarks change

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  908. Ge0rG

    Why not using mentions of the nickname if there is a body, or EME otherwise

  909. Ge0rG

    Private rooms will all have OMENNO, right?

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  911. emus

    Ge0rG - no one apart from the Germans will understand your OMENNO 😉

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  913. sebastian

    > Private rooms will all have OMENNO, right? Not sure if subtle joke or autocorrect 🤔

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  932. Ge0rG

    sebastian: yes

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  938. emus

    > sebastian escribió: > Not sure if subtle joke or autocorrect 🤔 subtle German joke 🙂

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