XSF Discussion - 2021-05-18


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  93. moparisthebest qrpnxz: yes
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  96. qrpnxz I am severly confused by s2s comm. After a lot of reading, I think I'm close to understanding. RFC-6120 states that "foregoing considerations imply" that while completing STARTTLS and SASL negotiation two servers would use one TCP connection. Good. Therefore, bidi (XEP-0288) can be agreed upon during this period. The question is then how to do two connections. After negotiating the first connection, am I supposed to end the receiving server's stream, dial the initiator (with the same `id`?? seems illegal), and negotiate that connection, after which the initiator ends their stream on the second connection, and then we can talk to each other?
  97. qrpnxz Because that kind of seems insane.
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  105. qrpnxz or i guess that the two streams are supposed to have different IDs and the second stream can reply to <iq/> from the first on the other connection without any problem just by having the id of that request?
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  124. qrpnxz ok so it looks like after SASL streams must be restarted. I suppose what you do is that the initiator starts a new stream, but the receiver instead goes and creates the second TCP conn?
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  138. Zash When you said bidi I thought of https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0288.html where there's no second connection.
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  144. Zash In standard xmpp without that, the other server creates their connection back whenever they want, usually when there's a reply or something to deliver. it's completely independent of any prior connection.
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  149. Zash Unless you use Dialback, then there's a bunch of connections in every direction and everything is confusing and backwards.
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  152. qrpnxz Ok i think it should be as i now understand it then. Good.
  153. qrpnxz Thx
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  157. Zash Dialback being https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0220.html
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  172. qrpnxz dialback looks like something i never wanna implement
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  318. Sam We should consider obsoleting dialback again.
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  321. moparisthebest Why? DNSSEC adoption keeps going up
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  324. moparisthebest And does anyone validate TLS certificates when doing dialback? That seems to work fine
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  328. qrpnxz it's the other way around mate, who'd wanna do dialback after validating TLS
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  333. moparisthebest I mean when you connect to bob.com's server, you validate it has a valid cert for bob.com before sending anything
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  339. qrpnxz Right, with TLS
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  345. moparisthebest Yes, dialback is still needed for validation the other direction, to prove to bob.com who you are
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  350. qrpnxz That's also with TLS
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  354. moparisthebest With sasl external it is, but dialback also works fine in the absence of that I guess
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  951. qrpnxz TLS and SASL support is required, and SASL EXTERNAL is also required for servers. So there's just about zero reason to do dialback afaict
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  959. Zash There's some servers that run with self-signed certs, some with expired certs...
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  968. qrpnxz cron to the rescue
  969. MattJ I would strongly urge anyone implementing s2s today to just not implement dialback
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  973. mdosch > There's some servers that run with self-signed certs, some with expired certs... Expired certs are probably just caused by mistakes, but why would you use self signed certs nowadays?
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  975. qrpnxz In case the domain is irrelevant.
  976. qrpnxz and you don't need hierarchy
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  981. mdosch What do you mean by irrelevant?
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  984. qrpnxz not applicable or pertinent
  985. mdosch If you want to do s2s with others I think it's relevant.
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  987. qrpnxz yes for s2s it's very relevant
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  989. qrpnxz thought you were asking in general
  990. qrpnxz for things using tls
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  992. mdosch It was about s2s afaiu.
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  1014. Kev Dialback’s pretty convenient for testing, mind.
  1015. qrpnxz for testing what
  1016. Kev For quickly running up a bunch of servers without having to generate a root, trust it in all the configs, issue certs etc.
  1017. Kev For testing the server.
  1018. qrpnxz sounds like you can also just whitelist these
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  1020. Zash I found it easier to get certs for my testing servers.
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  1024. flow plus, at some point you may want to test the code involving certs anyway :)
  1025. Kev You *can* do it by generating a CA, committing configs with that trusted and issued certs in etc., but...
  1026. Kev flow: Are you genuinely going to suggest that we don’t test our EXTERNAL paths?
  1027. flow hehe
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  1029. flow anyhow, all that talk about dialback being so complex actually makes me want to implement it
  1030. flow of course, I first would need to implement an XMPP server
  1031. flow not sure if I am up to that challenge, I like my life as client library dev very much
  1032. Kev But tests involving TLS are desperately slow, so being able to test with dialback is quite desirable (or you can use null cyphers in TLS or something, but we compile with those disabled).
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  1035. qrpnxz i want to implement a server and client rn. So far I've not been discouraged. XMPP is rather straightforward for the most part.
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  1037. flow rn?
  1038. qrpnxz right now
  1039. Kev So our S2S tests don’t do TLS except those that test TLS.
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  1042. Kev (Well, our in-process tests. Our integration test suite uses TLS)
  1043. flow qrpnxz, implementing client *and* server is a huge task, fwiw
  1044. qrpnxz i'm starting with server
  1045. flow I was suggesting to start with the client side of things
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  1047. flow I was about to suggest to start with the client side of things
  1048. flow but go for it, you can only learn from it
  1049. qrpnxz so XMPP: Core AND XMPP: IM AND i have to learn GUI? no way lol
  1050. qrpnxz how about just XMPP: Core server and done
  1051. flow sure, that's the nice thing about XMPP, you can implement a very basic server
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  1055. qrpnxz Clients not even required really. You can just make the server if you don't plan on having other users LOL
  1056. qrpnxz Client's not even required really. You can just make the server if you don't plan on having other users LOL
  1057. qrpnxz hmm, i don't see a way to make TLS optional without having a dummy feature...
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  1059. Kev In what sense?
  1060. Kev You just don’t mark it as required.
  1061. Kev Or if you mean optional to have configured, rather than optional to negotiate, you don’t advertise when it’s not configured.
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  1063. MattJ Basic messaging between clients in Prosody was working in just a few days. It's everything after that that's the difficult part :)
  1064. qrpnxz > You just don’t mark it as required. Kev: Core says that if it's by itself then it's mandatory by default
  1065. dwd flow, I've implemented dialback from scratch once, and fixed it at least twice. Don't recommend... it's simple enough to start with, then gets horrendously complex as you add in TLS, BiDi, etc.
  1066. MattJ I also think I discovered a bug in the XEP the other day
  1067. MattJ But I haven't reported it because I can't even be sure it's a bug in the XEP, or my understanding of it
  1068. qrpnxz dwd, basically anything that touches DNS makes me sad
  1069. dwd qrpnxz, Yes, you have to implement, and negotiate, TLS to be standards compliant. But you can deliberately choose not to.
  1070. dwd qrpnxz, Actually DNS is the easy bit. Unless you're talking DNSSEC, which then becomes complicated again.
  1071. qrpnxz MattJ, i'm writing something about a problem in XEP-0288 as well, but first i'm making sure it's actually a problem and/or proposing solution ;)
  1072. qrpnxz dwd, i see, ew
  1073. dwd qrpnxz, Especially when deriving candidate subject names.
  1074. dwd qrpnxz, And most interested in fixes for XEP-0288, of course.
  1075. qrpnxz > implement, and negotiate, TLS to be standards compliant serveral places in the standard hint at situation in which you get to, for example SASL, and tls is not negotiated yet. And indeed if you you have both tls feature and something else, tls is optional.
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  1077. qrpnxz but i don't see a way to only have tls feature, and have it be optional, yet you have to show tls feature, so... a pickle
  1078. qrpnxz well, i do see a way: a dummy feature. But kind of ugly
  1079. MattJ If you don't have any other features how is it optional?
  1080. MattJ The stream wouldn't be able to proceed
  1081. dwd qrpnxz, You just don't advertise TLS, and do advertise SASL.
  1082. qrpnxz i just specifically said that if it's the only one std says that it's mandatory by default so idk where you are getting i said that
  1083. qrpnxz not advertising tls is not the same as optional tls, also you cannot NOT advertise tls
  1084. qrpnxz you must advertize tls if you support it, which you must support because of the std as well
  1085. MattJ You're saying you want a scenario where you advertise only TLS, but you want it to be optional
  1086. dwd qrpnxz, You really can. You're no longer standards compliant, because we think you should do TLS. But if you have a compelling reason not to be standards compliant, then go for it.
  1087. qrpnxz mattj, it's not necessary that i want such a scenario, but that it's kind of ugly the way you have to do it (dummy feature)
  1088. dwd qrpnxz, I don't get where you're coming from with this "dummy feature".
  1089. Kev It’s not a dummy feature.
  1090. qrpnxz if i have tls feature, and another feature that is not tls, and tls does not have <require/>, then tls is optional
  1091. Kev It’s an alternative mechanism.
  1092. qrpnxz hence if i wanted to make tls optional, and i didn't have a legitimate feature to advertize alongside tls, then i'd have to create a dummy feature that doesn't exist to put along with tls, and then not mask tls as <require/>
  1093. dwd qrpnxz, If a server doesn't advertise TLS at all - and structurally, it need not - then a compliant client might refuse to continue. But a client that *also* doesn't mandate TLS (which is most of them with non-default configuration) will happily continue without. If you have an alternate stream encryption (or similar), then a client which understands that might negotiate it in preference to TLS.
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  1096. qrpnxz A server that doesn't advertize tls is not compliant, to start. A client that does mandate tls simply doesn't use the feature *if it's voluntary-to-negotiate*.
  1097. qrpnxz A server that doesn't advertize tls is not compliant, to start. A client that doesn't mandate tls simply doesn't use the feature *if it's voluntary-to-negotiate*.
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  1099. dwd qrpnxz, Have you noted the last bit of https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6120#section-5.4.1
  1100. dwd qrpnxz, So if the server doesn't consider TLS to be mandatory but does support it, just don't include <required/> in the stream feature.
  1101. qrpnxz right, that adds to the brainfuck. That means that there should never be the case that TLS is the only feature and it doesn't have <require/>
  1102. dwd qrpnxz, I don't understand why this is confusing. And yes, you're right (though <required/> would be redudant in that case).
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  1104. qrpnxz it's redundant, but it's required. They should have just writ it so that without required it's optional to be consistent
  1105. dwd qrpnxz, Well, sure, and it is. But if the only thing the stream is offering is to negotiate TLS, and you choose not to, then you can't do anything else.
  1106. qrpnxz it's not optional in that case.
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  1108. dwd qrpnxz, What difference does it make?
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  1110. flow MattJ> But I haven't reported it because I can't even be sure it's a bug in the XEP, or my understanding of it
  1111. flow standards@ it maybe?
  1112. dwd qrpnxz, I mean, sure, if TLS is the only thing offered, it follows that it *is* mandatory to negotiate, and therefore the server MUST include <required/>. But in practice, what cases fail to interoperate if it's not included?
  1113. Kev required only really matters so you know why you can’t continue, rather than aiding interop.
  1114. qrpnxz none, yet the server is not compliant ;) And if you want to make it optional you have to add a dummy. Not a helpful special case.
  1115. Zash I don't understand where you got 'dummy' from?
  1116. qrpnxz do you know what a dummy is
  1117. Zash Yes.
  1118. Kev Because no-one who wants to do tls is going to decide they’re not going to do it because it’s not marked as required. And similarly if it’s required you’re not going to be able to continue without it. It’s just useful for debug when things don’t work.
  1119. Zash Maybe the missing piece is that if you are only offered TLS, the only way to not do TLS would be to do Dialback, which is advertised differently because hysterical raisins.
  1120. qrpnxz perhaps you missed my message where i explain i copy here: ``` hence if i wanted to make tls optional, and i didn't have a legitimate feature to advertize alongside tls, then i'd have to create a dummy feature that doesn't exist to put along with tls, and then not mark tls as <require/> ```
  1121. dwd qrpnxz, Why do you think you need this dummy feature?
  1122. qrpnxz you need it to mark tls as optional if tls is the only legitimate feature
  1123. dwd qrpnxz, Why do you think that?
  1124. qrpnxz because that's what the standard says. If it's on it's own, it's required. Period. So if it's gonna be optional, there needs to be another feature.
  1125. dwd qrpnxz, Ah, I see. So you want a client to go straight to SASL?
  1126. Zash But how would you SASL without TLS?
  1127. dwd qrpnxz, If so... advertise SASL.
  1128. Zash And that's where in practice you'd do Dialback.
  1129. qrpnxz Not personally, but i'm just saying that's what you'd have to do. You can't advertize SASL before TLS, and you have to advertise TLS
  1130. dwd qrpnxz, And why do you think you can't advertise SASL alongside TLS?
  1131. flow Why can't I advertize SASL before TLS?
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  1133. qrpnxz standard says so
  1134. flow ref or it didn't say so ;)
  1135. qrpnxz i will look :)
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  1138. flow we should take notes how different people interpret the standard text and see if we can clarify this in a future revision of the text
  1139. qrpnxz you are right you can do them at the same time, thought if you didn't do SASL either then you'd need a dummy again
  1140. dwd qrpnxz, So you want to not do SASL *or* Dialback *or* TLS? What is it that you *do* want to do?
  1141. qrpnxz you are right you can do them at the same time, though if you didn't do SASL either then you'd need a dummy again
  1142. dwd qrpnxz, And shouldn't you advertise *that*?
  1143. qrpnxz I don't want to do anything like I said. Just commenting on the standard.
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  1145. Zash And then?
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  1147. qrpnxz one min
  1148. menel has joined
  1149. qrpnxz and nothing
  1150. Zash I'm lost.
  1151. qrpnxz how can i help
  1152. dwd qrpnxz, So you're saying that a thing you don't want to do can't be done? And this annoys you because?
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  1154. qrpnxz no, it can be done. Just you have to use a dummy maybe.
  1155. qrpnxz the annoying part is that there's an unnecessary special case of tls being required if it's the only thing.
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  1157. qrpnxz whereas it could just be required if you put <required/>, which you must do if you consider it required anyway
  1158. flow I think you maybe reading to much into "TLS required" in the standards text
  1159. flow it basically says that an implementation can only claim standards compliance if it implements TLS
  1160. flow not that you have to jump through loops in the protocol, not offering TLS is perfectly fine from a protocol perspective
  1161. qrpnxz it says a lot of things
  1162. dwd qrpnxz, OK. So you want the client to negotiate something which is unadvertised?
  1163. qrpnxz no
  1164. dwd qrpnxz, So what do you want the client to do?
  1165. qrpnxz > not offering TLS is perfectly fine from a protocol perspective no, std requires you offer tls
  1166. qrpnxz i don't want the client to do anything dwd
  1167. dwd qrpnxz, Then what on earth is the problem?
  1168. qrpnxz i've already said to you multiple times idk what you want from me
  1169. dwd qrpnxz, Give me an example of the thing you don't want to do but think is impossible.
  1170. qrpnxz i already told you multiple times there is no impossible thing
  1171. dwd qrpnxz, So why do you thinka dummy feature is needed?
  1172. flow maybe slow down a bit and see if we can steer this into a productive and helpful direction
  1173. qrpnxz i will tell you one more time: because if it's by itself and it doesn't say required it is still required, if you want to make it not required and there's no other legitimate feature, you must have a dummy feature
  1174. dwd qrpnxz, OK. And what would the client do at this point?
  1175. qrpnxz if it were optional? idk, w/e the client wanna do, or negotiate a mandatory feature.
  1176. flow that would be SASL or dialback at this point, right?
  1177. qrpnxz sure, if that were a feature
  1178. flow so why not, instead of a dummy feature, announce SASL and/or dialback?
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  1180. dwd qrpnxz, OK, so there'd be another, non-dummy, feature for it to negotiate then. Where does the dummy feature come in?
  1181. qrpnxz yes we already established this is also an option. That's why i said "if there's no other legitimate feature"
  1182. qrpnxz yes we already established this is also an option. That's why i said *"if there's no other legitimate feature"*
  1183. flow ok, we are going circles :)
  1184. qrpnxz If there is another feature, then TLS feature comes back to the world of mortals and behaves normally. Only if it would otherwise be the only feature, do you need a dummy to make it optional.
  1185. qrpnxz If there is another feature, then TLS feature comes back to the world of mortals and behaves normally. Only if it would otherwise be the only feature, then you need a dummy to make it optional.
  1186. dwd Why would it be the only feature?
  1187. dwd Because if you want the client to do "something else", then the server needs to advertise the feature is available at that point.
  1188. qrpnxz it's almost always the only feature. I don't know all the XEPs though.
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  1191. qrpnxz the dummy is not for when you want to do something else, it's for when you want to do nothing.
  1192. MattJ If you want to do nothing the stream can't proceed, that's the point
  1193. qrpnxz it can if it's optional
  1194. MattJ It can't, there's nothing else to do
  1195. qrpnxz there is, if they are optional it's stanza time
  1196. dwd MattJ, Maybe it's the equivalent of just holding hands.
  1197. MattJ It's not stanza time until it's authenticated, which requires SASL
  1198. MattJ (let's put dialback aside...)
  1199. qrpnxz sasl is not required afaict
  1200. MattJ You can't send stanzas without authentication
  1201. qrpnxz but if it is then you put sasl next to tls, which like i said, is ofc not a situation in which you need the dummy
  1202. dwd qrpnxz, RFC 6120 says SASL is both required and mandatory-to-negotiate.
  1203. qrpnxz required to support, and mandatory-to-negotiate when advertized
  1204. Zash It is a bit awkward that there's no explicit "you're done, feel free to send stanzas now"
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  1206. Zash Also awkward that an empty `<stream:features/>` means exactly that...
  1207. dwd Zash, Well, for C2S you could advertise <bind/>.
  1208. qrpnxz if all features are optional and there's nothing you want to negotiate, you just go ahead. I think it's for the best. Saves a message
  1209. Zash dwd, thought we were mostly discussing s2s
  1210. Zash but yeah
  1211. dwd But there *is* XEP-0361 for the oddball cases where you need that.
  1212. qrpnxz nice
  1213. qrpnxz it's def expensive to start xmpp conn with all those stream restarts and feature lists
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  1215. qrpnxz for contrained environments. Desktops no problem ofc
  1216. flow that negotiation ping-pong is also old-fashioned when it comes to protocol design. these days you want to just send all the stuff you want to do in a single step, e.g. bind2
  1217. flow but I guess the negotation ping-pong is less of an issue in s2s
  1218. Kev Depends on the environment. But yes, generally.
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  1221. qrpnxz On a related note, I may have found a problem in XEP-0288. XMPP: Core states: ``` A <features/> element that contains both mandatory-to-negotiate and voluntary-to-negotiate features indicates that the negotiation is not complete but that the initiating entity MAY complete the voluntary- to-negotiate feature(s) before it attempts to negotiate the mandatory-to-negotiate feature(s). ``` However, XEP-0288 states: ``` If a server supports bidirectional server-to-server streams, it should inform the connecting entity when returning stream features during the stream negotiation process (both before and after TLS negotiation). [...] If the initiating entity chooses to use TLS, STARTTLS negotiation MUST be completed before enabling bidirectionality. ``` Now consider I serve the following: ``` <stream:features> <starttls xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-tls'> <required/> </starttls> <bidi xmlns='urn:xmpp:features:bidi'/> </stream:features> ``` Core says that I MAY negotiate bidi first, but 0288 says that I MUST do STARTTLS first. 0288 should allow you to enable bidi before TLS to defuse this situation. I can't think of why that should be disallowed.
  1222. Kev Central to a lot of how XEPs work is that any behaviour can be overriden by negotiation.
  1223. Kev Central to a lot of how XEPs work is that any behaviour can be overridden by negotiation.
  1224. Kev So if core says something and 288 says “But when doing 288 you should do this instead”, that is fine.
  1225. Kev E.g. core says “There’s just <message/> <presence/> and <iq/>” and 198 says “but if you’re doing 198 there’s <a/> and <r/> too”, and that’s fine.
  1226. dwd What Kev says, but also bidi is predicated on mutual authentication, so it'd be a bit weird to negotiate that before you decide if the other side is who it says it is.
  1227. qrpnxz I see yeah cool np
  1228. dwd But maybe weird is OK.
  1229. qrpnxz i don't see how bidi is predicated on authentication, it just means says "dont' bother with another conn"
  1230. qrpnxz in fact, it's perfectly ok to do bidi but not TLS in the XEP
  1231. dwd Sending stanzas in general is predicated on mutual authentication. Even XEP-0361 uses out of band authentication.
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  1233. Kev And if you do TLS, pre-TLS state is tainted.
  1234. Kev So you couldn’t negotiate bidi before doing TLS and continue using it afterwards.
  1235. dwd Kev, That's a good point.
  1236. qrpnxz i don't see such predicate in 0361, it merely recommends it
  1237. Kev 361 definitely only works bilaterally :)
  1238. qrpnxz oh i think ik what you are talking about kev, gonna look up the quote in the std
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  1241. qrpnxz here: ``` The initiating entity MUST discard any information transmitted in layers above TCP that it obtained from the receiving entity in an insecure manner before TLS took effect (e.g., the receiving entity's 'from' address or the stream ID and stream features received from the receiving entity). ```
  1242. qrpnxz bidi would be such an information
  1243. qrpnxz therefore if you do bidi first, no more tls
  1244. Zash You'd get another set of stream features after TLS and the stream restart
  1245. qrpnxz and contraversly, if you do tls, it must be first
  1246. qrpnxz right
  1247. qrpnxz *contrapositively lol
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  1249. dwd However, you may have a point - it's useful for the receiving entity to know if bidi is intended as early as possible, ebcause otherwise it'll start to open connections. (Or might do; Metre certainly will).
  1250. Zash I think in Prosody bidi is not even advertised until after TLS and certificates have been verified and such
  1251. qrpnxz 0288 doesn't require it do advertise before tls, only recommends it
  1252. Kev dwd: But if you’re making such decisions, they have to be reversible, right?
  1253. Kev Because the bidi before TLS is tainted.
  1254. dwd Kev, Yes, but you could at least hold off on opening return sessions.
  1255. Kev Although I’m not sure what decision you’d make based on an *outbound* session having bidi advertised.
  1256. qrpnxz but you really gotta do it before sasl, because after sasl it's assumed you aren't gonna send anything else on that conn
  1257. Kev As on an outgoing session it’s the other end that can elide the second stream because of bidi, not you.
  1258. Zash What's all this about opening return sessions early?
  1259. Zash That sounds like a Dialback thing
  1260. qrpnxz uhh, not sure
  1261. dwd Zash, It's a non-bidi-thing.
  1262. Zash Hm, without dialback, something to verify that bidirectional connectivity is possible would be good...
  1263. qrpnxz that's what XEP-0288 does
  1264. Zash One-way s2s is a bit annoying when it happens
  1265. dwd Kev, Yes. So, you're a server. You get an inbound session claiming to be from example.org. You're advertising bidi. Until the inbound session has negotiated bidi, then you can save some time by initiating an outbound session to example,org. This is safe (in terms of auth, etc) even if the inbound session cannot authenticate.
  1266. Zash XEP-0288 isn't all that widely deployed
  1267. dwd Kev, But, if the inbound session then negotiates bidi, it was a waste of effort.
  1268. qrpnxz no way i personally waste time on outbound connection before auth, and bidi has to happen before auth, so problem solved for me lol
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  1270. Kev dwd: Yes, but I don’t know what advertising bidi does here. Because it’s you that’s advertising it on the inbound session, so you don’t know if the other end is going to use it later to determine whether to open the return session or not.
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  1272. dwd Kev, Right, because we don't negotiate until later. If, as qrpnxz says, we negotiate early, then this changes.
  1273. dwd Kev, Even if we'd *later* have to renegotiate...
  1274. dwd qrpnxz, It's very rarely a waste of time, and often makes things significantly faster to get to stanza exchange.
  1275. qrpnxz if you advertise bidi with tls, you can do bidi and no tls (unless TLS is required, then you must do TLS first). If you advertise bidi with SASL, then you can enable bidi, and after SASL you will have a bidi connection. Or if you don't enable it and then do SASL, then it's one way
  1276. qrpnxz dwd, yeah it's a tradeoff of waste of resources on non-auth and time save for successful auth. I choose not letting people waste my time without auth every time tho
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  1301. moparisthebest .onion domains are a widely deployed reason to still support dialback I think
  1302. MattJ Prosody's mod_onions just accepts any *.onion certificate
  1303. qrpnxz onion does touch dns though, and i cant think of you you wouldmt trust that conn
  1304. qrpnxz *doesn't
  1305. qrpnxz jesus i rly messed up that msg
  1306. qrpnxz h8 typing on phone
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  1308. qrpnxz ok on computer now. Onion addr is based on pub key crypto iirc, so if you connected to it, I think you are fine, but not sure tbh will have to look into it.
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  1310. qrpnxz rly need to go to bed rn tho
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  1313. moparisthebest qrpnxz, right, but then how do you validate the connection coming *from* something claiming to be a .onion ?
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  1318. moparisthebest MattJ, wait for incoming SASL auth too? or how do you validate incoming .onion streams ?
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  1320. Zash It accepts any certificate, in that it doesn't reject them. But it doesn't use certs for authentication either. Still need to do Dialback.
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  1322. moparisthebest ah ok, good
  1323. moparisthebest I suppose the dreaded "raw IP" requires dialback too
  1324. Zash You can get certs for IP addresses actually...
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  1326. Zash Prosody can't federate with bare IPs tho, so glhf
  1327. Zash (depending on version and whether it's the future yet)
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  1348. Kev It wasn’t then, but it is now.
  1349. Zash IP address SAN is newer than XMPP?
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  1353. dwd The SAN existed, it's part of X.509v3, IIRC. But whether any CA would sign such a cert is another matter.
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  1355. Zash Will any now?
  1356. Zash https://1.1.1.1 has one
  1357. dwd I have this vision of you deciding to work through all the IP addresses and being lucky the first one hit.
  1358. eta please federate with 2a0d:1a40:7553:beef:5054:ff:fe62:dd16, kthxbai
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  1360. Zash Next up, can haz raw public keys?
  1361. Zash Raw all the things
  1362. Zash And like ... in-addr.arpa DANE something something
  1363. dwd I'd never suggest "raw public keys", because the logistics are a pain, but Metre does allow preconfigured self-signed certs.
  1364. eta also see https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.security.policy/JFwqZx7RLL0
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  1366. Zash DANE + raw public keys would be nice tho
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  1416. Chan Shen is it possible to add voice chat to xmpp ??
  1417. Zash Yes, commonly called Jingle
  1418. Zash https://xmpp.org/uses/webrtc.html might be enlightening
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  1420. Zash or https://xmpp.org/about/technology-overview.html#jingle
  1421. Zash or both
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  1423. Chan Shen >Yes, commonly called Jingle is it something like group chat of telegram ??
  1424. Chan Shen >Yes, commonly called Jingle is it something like group voice chat of telegram ??
  1425. Zash Never used Telegram, can't answer that.
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  1427. Chan Shen >Never used Telegram, can't answer that. i mean is it possible to have a voice chat (up to 100 person) with group members in xmpp ?
  1428. Zash Daniel, distinct lack of mention of calls on https://conversations.im/ 🙂
  1429. Zash Mostly 1-to-1 calls at this time, altho things like Jitsi Meet does video conferencing with some XMPP behind the scenes.
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  1434. Chan Shen i think it is called multiparty jingle (muji). https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0272.html
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  1531. jonas’ https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1059 flow, don’t you think this has privacy implications?
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  1554. flow jonas’, well yes, I still would recommend that. that said, if someoe would write a disclaimer, then this would be fine by me
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  1576. dwd Chan Shen, Unfortunately the Jitsi Meet people haven't put their solution through standardisation, which is a shame. I should have a chat with Emil and co about that. But there are a number of solutions for video conferencing based on XMPP as the signalling layer, including Jitsi Meet, and also Zoom and possibly still Google Meet.
  1577. Chan Shen > dwd wrote: > Chan Shen, Unfortunately the Jitsi Meet people haven't put their solution through standardisation, which is a shame. I should have a chat with Emil and co about that. But there are a number of solutions for video conferencing based on XMPP as the signalling layer, including Jitsi Meet, and also Zoom and possibly still Google Meet. Jitsi is the best choice for me right now , i dont like Telegram nor Google Meet.
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  1579. dwd Chan Shen, There is also Openfire Meetings and Padmé as well, on the open source front, but I don't know how well those scale.
  1580. dwd Chan Shen, You did stipulate voice only - most recent work has been around video, which may or may not mean some interesting large-scale voice stuff has gone unnoticed by me.
  1581. Zash Does anyone know any details about how Mumble works?
  1582. moparisthebest also https://bigbluebutton.org/ which I don't think is XMPP but at least open source and supposedly works pretty well
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  1584. dwd Zash, Oh, yeah, Mumble.
  1585. jonas’ Zash, barely
  1586. dwd Zash, Voice go in one end. Voice come out the other.
  1587. jonas’ with mixing on the server
  1588. jonas’ I think anyway
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  1590. Chan Shen I just dont like facebook , whatsapp , telegram. I tried to invite my friends to xmpp & matrix , but they say telegram is 100% secure and its features are not implemented in other IM apps.
  1591. emus Hello everyone, as I just wrote an email to members@ - I would also point you from here to the work I am doing here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/920 It is an overview of the XSF, its organization and resources, as a organizational chart or organigram. I am convinced this can be a really helpful tool for overview purposes, especially to newcomers or people who are interested in the XSF and XMPP. Let me know you feedback and if you think something is missing! @board, @council (just imaging I ping you guys 😛)
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  1679. wgreenhouse what is the software behind logs.xmpp.org?
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  1702. menel I think this: https://modules.prosody.im/mod_http_muc_log.html
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  1714. wgreenhouse menel: looks like it, thank you
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