XSF Discussion - 2021-05-20

  1. adiaholic has left

  2. matkor has joined

  3. adiaholic has joined

  4. Calvin has joined

  5. adiaholic has left

  6. stp has left

  7. jcbrand has left

  8. lovetox has left

  9. lovetox has joined

  10. alameyo has left

  11. alameyo has joined

  12. pjn has joined

  13. Adi has left

  14. Adi has joined

  15. lovetox has left

  16. lovetox has joined

  17. stpeter has joined

  18. stpeter has left

  19. mathieui has left

  20. lskdjf has left

  21. alexbay218 has joined

  22. stpeter has joined

  23. stpeter has left

  24. adiaholic has joined

  25. adiaholic has left

  26. adiaholic has joined

  27. Zash has left

  28. adiaholic has left

  29. neshtaxmpp has joined

  30. lskdjf has joined

  31. lovetox has left

  32. BASSGOD has joined

  33. lovetox has joined

  34. alameyo has left

  35. adiaholic has joined

  36. andrey.g has left

  37. dib has left

  38. adiaholic has left

  39. Seve has left

  40. mukt2 has joined

  41. chronosx88 has left

  42. chronosx88 has joined

  43. adiaholic has joined

  44. adiaholic has left

  45. adiaholic has joined

  46. mukt2 has left

  47. Adi has left

  48. Adi has joined

  49. adiaholic has left

  50. mukt2 has joined

  51. Calvin has left

  52. adiaholic has joined

  53. Seve has joined

  54. mukt2 has left

  55. Yagiza has joined

  56. stpeter has joined

  57. stpeter has left

  58. inky has left

  59. adiaholic has left

  60. adiaholic has joined

  61. adiaholic has left

  62. chronosx88 has left

  63. chronosx88 has joined

  64. adiaholic has joined

  65. alameyo has joined

  66. jcbrand has joined

  67. wgreenhouse has left

  68. wgreenhouse has joined

  69. wgreenhouse has left

  70. wgreenhouse has joined

  71. adiaholic has left

  72. adiaholic has joined

  73. adiaholic has left

  74. alacer has left

  75. alacer has joined

  76. alex-a-soto has left

  77. alex-a-soto has joined

  78. menel has joined

  79. adiaholic has joined

  80. adiaholic has left

  81. lovetox has left

  82. chronosx88 has left

  83. Chan Shen has joined

  84. lovetox has joined

  85. adiaholic has joined

  86. adiaholic has left

  87. andy has joined

  88. lorddavidiii has joined

  89. adiaholic has joined

  90. chronosx88 has joined

  91. wurstsalat has joined

  92. BASSGOD has left

  93. adiaholic has left

  94. adiaholic has joined

  95. lskdjf has left

  96. lskdjf has joined

  97. stpeter has joined

  98. stpeter has left

  99. BASSGOD has joined

  100. Kev has left

  101. Kev has joined

  102. inky has joined

  103. floretta has left

  104. floretta has joined

  105. chronosx88 has left

  106. chronosx88 has joined

  107. adiaholic has left

  108. chronosx88 has left

  109. chronosx88 has joined

  110. mukt2 has joined

  111. adiaholic has joined

  112. chronosx88 has left

  113. chronosx88 has joined

  114. adiaholic has left

  115. mukt2 has left

  116. mukt2 has joined

  117. Tobias has joined

  118. chronosx88 has left

  119. chronosx88 has joined

  120. adiaholic has joined

  121. Guus has joined

  122. larma has left

  123. adiaholic has left

  124. lskdjf has left

  125. larma has joined

  126. emus has joined

  127. Zash has joined

  128. Freddy has left

  129. menel has left

  130. ti_gj06 has joined

  131. raghavgururajan has left

  132. Freddy has joined

  133. menel has joined

  134. govanify has left

  135. govanify has joined

  136. adiaholic has joined

  137. stp has joined

  138. menel has left

  139. menel has joined

  140. adiaholic has left

  141. mathijs has left

  142. mathijs has joined

  143. marc has joined

  144. karoshi has joined

  145. stp has left

  146. paul has left

  147. paul has joined

  148. paul has left

  149. paul has joined

  150. marc has left

  151. adiaholic has joined

  152. marc has joined

  153. babacb has left

  154. babacb has joined

  155. raghavgururajan has joined

  156. elliot020 has left

  157. chronosx88 has left

  158. chronosx88 has joined

  159. marc has left

  160. Alex has left

  161. adiaholic has left

  162. Alex has joined

  163. adiaholic has joined

  164. alameyo has left

  165. mukt2 has left

  166. alacer has left

  167. mukt2 has joined

  168. chronosx88 has left

  169. chronosx88 has joined

  170. adiaholic has left

  171. adiaholic has joined

  172. menel has left

  173. chronosx88 has left

  174. chronosx88 has joined

  175. menel has joined

  176. marc has joined

  177. adiaholic has left

  178. goffi has joined

  179. alacer has joined

  180. wgreenhouse has left

  181. adiaholic has joined

  182. stp has joined

  183. mathieui has joined

  184. chronosx88 has left

  185. chronosx88 has joined

  186. wendy has left

  187. chronosx88 has left

  188. chronosx88 has joined

  189. bean has joined

  190. chronosx88 has left

  191. chronosx88 has joined

  192. sonny has left

  193. sonny has joined

  194. ti_gj06 has left

  195. chronosx88 has left

  196. chronosx88 has joined

  197. wendy has joined

  198. chronosx88 has left

  199. chronosx88 has joined

  200. ti_gj06 has joined

  201. menel has left

  202. chronosx88 has left

  203. chronosx88 has joined

  204. marc0s has left

  205. marc0s has joined

  206. dib has joined

  207. menel has joined

  208. larma has left

  209. chronosx88 has left

  210. chronosx88 has joined

  211. debacle has joined

  212. floretta has left

  213. larma has joined

  214. adiaholic has left

  215. adiaholic has joined

  216. raghavgururajan has left

  217. LNJ has joined

  218. menel has left

  219. Andrzej has joined

  220. menel has joined

  221. menel has left

  222. menel has joined

  223. chronosx88 has left

  224. chronosx88 has joined

  225. peetah has left

  226. eevvoor has left

  227. floretta has joined

  228. eevvoor has joined

  229. ti_gj06 has left

  230. adiaholic has left

  231. wendy has left

  232. peetah has joined

  233. mukt2 has left

  234. qrpnxz

    alright, took me about 300 lines to make the domainpart parser. Not too bad lol

  235. arcxi has left

  236. menel has left

  237. menel has joined

  238. Andrzej has left

  239. Andrzej has joined

  240. ti_gj06 has joined

  241. Andrzej has left

  242. ti_gj06 has left

  243. Chan Shen has left

  244. Chan Shen has joined

  245. moparisthebest has left

  246. moparisthebest has joined

  247. menel has left

  248. Kev has left

  249. Kev has joined

  250. menel has joined

  251. Kev has left

  252. adiaholic has joined

  253. Kev has joined

  254. Kev has left

  255. Kev has joined

  256. Link Mauve has left

  257. ti_gj06 has joined

  258. ti_gj06 has left

  259. peetah has left

  260. mukt2 has joined

  261. Chan Shen has left

  262. Chan Shen has joined

  263. adiaholic has left

  264. peetah has joined

  265. eta has left

  266. eta has joined

  267. Link Mauve has joined

  268. adiaholic has joined

  269. arcxi has joined

  270. flow

    for just the parser, that sounds like to much LOC

  271. flow

    for something that prepares, validates and enforces the domainpart, it is way to less (assuming no external libraries)

  272. ti_gj06 has joined

  273. adiaholic has left

  274. ti_gj06 has left

  275. lovetox has left

  276. lovetox has joined

  277. dib has left

  278. adiaholic has joined

  279. qrpnxz

    definitely leaned on many libraries for it, and it's just the parser (which by definition validates btw), so the preperation part. I didn't do enforcement, because I actually don't know what the spec means by that. I think I just do that when I'm going to do comparison, or if I'm going to store or forwards the information.

  280. mukt2 has left

  281. ti_gj06 has joined

  282. ti_gj06 has left

  283. menel has left

  284. menel has joined

  285. qrpnxz

    definitely leaned on many libraries for it, and it's just the parser (which by definition validates btw) I didn't do enforcement, because I actually don't know what the spec means by that. I think I just do that when I'm going to do comparison, or if I'm going to store or forwards the information.

  286. qrpnxz

    definitely leaned on many libraries for it, and it's just the parser (which by definition validates btw). I didn't do enforcement, because I actually don't know what the spec means by that. I think I just do that when I'm going to do comparison, or if I'm going to store or forwards the information.

  287. adiaholic has left

  288. adiaholic has joined

  289. dib has joined

  290. flow

    depends on your use case, servers to a lot of jid comparision and "is child of" checking. so it appears sensible to store the enforced variant of the JID representation

  291. Zash

    What /does/ enforcement mean?

  292. Daniel has left

  293. flow

    IIRC lowercasing the localpart for example

  294. Zash

    So convert everything to the normalized form and reject invalid values?

  295. flow

    I'd assume rejecting happens in the validation step

  296. Zash

    We occationally have users who REALLY want their UserName case to be preserved. :)

  297. flow

    I'm sure you do

  298. flow

    hmm it appears in PRECIS, validatation and enforcement are in the same step "enforcement"

  299. dib has left

  300. dib has joined

  301. winfried has left

  302. winfried has joined

  303. Wojtek has joined

  304. andrey.g has joined

  305. flow

    qrpnxz, I am sure you checked the RFC's errata for additional information regarding domainpart validation, right? :)

  306. qrpnxz

    i have not finished reading the spec even :) Thanks for heads up tho

  307. menel has left

  308. qrpnxz

    enforcement seems to be about taking an almost valid jid and doing some transformations on it so that it's actually conformant

  309. qrpnxz

    enforcement seems to be about taking an almost valid jid (say from user input) and doing some transformations on it so that it's actually conformant

  310. qrpnxz

    yeah i'm pretty sure about this see RFC 5895

  311. mukt2 has joined

  312. Daniel has joined

  313. dib has left

  314. dib has joined

  315. flow

    qrpnxz, what about ipv6 addresses in the domainpart? maybe there are code points that IDNA disallows that are valid in an IPv6 address?

  316. menel has joined

  317. qrpnxz

    IDNA is not relevant to IP addresses, only if you detect that it must be a domain name do you start worrying about that

  318. qrpnxz


  319. Adi has left

  320. flow

    right, but you should not allow arbitrary strings if it is not a DNS name

  321. flow

    and, how do you detect that is must be a DNS name?

  322. qrpnxz

    if it starts with a number it has to be ipv4, if it starts with a '[' it better be ipv6, otherwise i start trying to parse a domain name

  323. flow

    DNS labels can start with digits, so that's not sound

  324. qrpnxz

    LDH cannot start with digits

  325. qrpnxz

    U-labels maaaaybe. And maybe when i find time to care i change the code to try domain name even when it starts with a digit. That would not be hard.

  326. stp has left

  327. qrpnxz

    yeah no it can't lol

  328. qrpnxz

    it gets caught in the bidi rule

  329. adiaholic has left

  330. Zash

    > LDH cannot start with digits source?

  331. qrpnxz

    sure one sec

  332. qrpnxz


  333. qrpnxz

    they also cannot start or end with hyphen

  334. Zash

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5890 didn't say so, only the hypen bit

  335. Kev

    I thought that was relaxed in a later RFC.

  336. qrpnxz

    yeah 5890 defers to 1034 on a lot of details

  337. Kev

    (Starting with a number, not the hyphen)

  338. Kev

    But I don’t have this swapped in.

  339. adiaholic has joined

  340. Kev

    1123 maybe? I don’t have time to read it to check.

  341. Kev

    Blah. I got sucked in

  342. Kev

    2.1 Host Names and Numbers The syntax of a legal Internet host name was specified in RFC-952 [DNS:4]. One aspect of host name syntax is hereby changed: the restriction on the first character is relaxed to allow either a letter or a digit. Host software MUST support this more liberal syntax.

  343. ti_gj06 has joined

  344. qrpnxz

    hmm, nice find. Problem is that it breaks the bidi rule

  345. qrpnxz

    Kev, which are you quoting from

  346. Kev


  347. qrpnxz

    wait, but this is for host names, is that really the same as a domain name?

  348. Kev

    Down this path madness lies. Don’t say you haven’t been warned :D

  349. qrpnxz

    also, a host here can be an ip or a domain name, so ofc a host name should be able to start with a number, but this is not necessarily the case for a domain name

  350. qrpnxz

    yeah i'm certain this is what that's for

  351. ti_gj06 has left

  352. adiaholic has left

  353. flow

    it's confusing, isn't it? rfc5890 even explicitly says that LDH label rules are modified by rfc1123

  354. Adi has joined

  355. Maranda has left

  356. Maranda has joined

  357. winfried has left

  358. winfried has joined

  359. Kev

    > yeah i'm certain this is what that's for Honestly, if you’re still at the point of being certain about anything you’ve not spent long enough looking at name stuffs :D

  360. flow

    I tend to lean towards rfc1123 § 2.1 talking about "DNS labels" when "host name syntax"

  361. adiaholic has joined

  362. flow

    the problem is, besides what Kev mentioned, terminology

  363. qrpnxz

    Kev, correction: I'm certain this is how i'm going to interpret it xD.

  364. flow

    "domain name", "host name", are not well defined terms

  365. winfried has left

  366. winfried has joined

  367. flow

    "DNS name", "DNS label" are

  368. Kev

    Actually, domain name and host name both *are* well defined, I think. The former in 1034 and the latter in 1123. It’s just that … yeah.

  369. qrpnxz

    even the JID standard just tells you about RFC5890 in an informational note. The actual requirement is that it be a FQDN, which the standard also admits as not well defined lol

  370. Kev

    It’s defined what format they have, but not what the *are* :)

  371. Kev

    It’s defined what format they have, but not what they *are* :)

  372. emus has left

  373. flow

    Kev, not sure if this is the case for "domain name", rfc1034 even admits "The terms "domain" or "domain name" are used in many contexts beyond the DNS described here."

  374. Kev


  375. flow

    where "DNS name" is unambiguous

  376. Kev

    But frequently unhelpful!

  377. flow

    of course, you could argue that it is well defined to be not well defined

  378. qrpnxz


  379. adiaholic has left

  380. emus has joined

  381. chronosx88 has left

  382. chronosx88 has joined

  383. chronosx88 has left

  384. chronosx88 has joined

  385. flow

    qrpnxz, would you mind elaborating on the bidi rule thingy you mentioned?

  386. winfried has left

  387. x51 has joined

  388. qrpnxz

    yeah so for full unicode labels there's all kinds of rules for what code points are allowed, and one of them has to do with the directionality of the text (left-to-right, right-to-left). A label is only valid if it passes this test. Link: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5893#section-2

  389. winfried has joined

  390. flow

    and having a digit at first position causes issues with the bidi rule because?

  391. flow

    (note that I may have misunderstood you)

  392. qrpnxz

    well it violates condition one, for starters

  393. flow


  394. flow

    so you can't have a U-label starting with a digit

  395. flow

    but you can have a A-label

  396. flow

    so 1soccer.us would be fine as DNS name and as XMPP domainpart

  397. flow

    but 1fußball.de would not be fine as DNS name (but I believe it would be fine as XMPP domainpart)

  398. flow

    then again, a XMPP domainpart that does not may well to a DNS name is mostly useless

  399. flow

    then again, a XMPP domainpart that does not map well to a DNS name is mostly useless

  400. qrpnxz

    A-labels start with xn-- remember :)

  401. flow


  402. qrpnxz


  403. flow


  404. qrpnxz

    this is just fact sorry

  405. qrpnxz

    quote "This means, by definition, that every A-label will begin with the IDNA ACE prefix, "xn--""

  406. flow

    got me, was confusing A with LDH labels

  407. qrpnxz

    and LDH cannot start with number for sure

  408. flow

    and that's because?

  409. qrpnxz


  410. qrpnxz

    because that's how it's defined

  411. flow

    but everything is an LDH label, so that relaxation from rfc1123 would apply there too

  412. flow

    but everything is a LDH label, so that relaxation from rfc1123 would apply there too

  413. Kev has left

  414. Kev has joined

  415. qrpnxz

    i'm really certain that that quote from 1123 is for host names, which it says were previously defined in rfc 952 (totally different document)

  416. adiaholic has joined

  417. menel has left

  418. flow

    but why would rfc5890 then refer to rfc1123?

  419. flow

    also rfc1123 talks about DNS' "trailing dot"

  420. flow

    but yes, I can definelty see your point too

  421. flow

    but yes, I can definetly see your point too

  422. Kev

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3696#section-2 add any light here? :)

  423. flow

    moar rfcs!!!!

  424. qrpnxz

    i refered to 1123 because you brought it up lol

  425. karoshi has left

  426. qrpnxz

    but 5890 refers to 1034 on what a valid LDH label is

  427. flow

    Kev, I think it does, and I am pretty sure I've read all that ages ago

  428. flow

    the second paragaph only mentions the hypen rule, nothing about disallowing a digit in the first position

  429. adiaholic has left

  430. qrpnxz

    my god everything is mislinked but i found something one sec

  431. dib has left

  432. qrpnxz

    "a segment of a host domain name is now allowed to begin with a digit and could legally be entirely numeric (see Section However, a valid host name can never have the dotted-decimal form #.#.#.#, since at least the highest-level component label will be alphabetic" this is from 1123, twas hidden later on in the text. (Section is totally completely unrelated btw) So the answer here seems to be then to only apply the bidi rule if there are any RTL characters. (I'll have to check if there was a correction of the rule.)

  433. qrpnxz

    "a segment of a host domain name is now allowed to begin with a digit and could legally be entirely numeric (see Section However, a valid host name can never have the dotted-decimal form #.#.#.#, since at least the highest-level component label will be alphabetic" this is from 1123 section 2.1, twas hidden later on in the text. (Section is totally completely unrelated btw) So the answer here seems to be then to only apply the bidi rule if there are any RTL characters. (I'll have to check if there was a correction of the rule.)

  434. menel has joined

  435. qrpnxz

    this i think is better evidence that it also applies to domain names in general

  436. Kev

    > Honestly, if you’re still at the point of being certain about anything you’ve not spent long enough looking at name stuffs :D I’ll just leave this here :)

  437. qrpnxz

    real world proof of number domain name https://37signals.com/

  438. qrpnxz

    will get back to you guys on the bidi thing

  439. adiaholic has joined

  440. Kev

    Oh, I could have come up with exxamples if asked :)

  441. qrpnxz

    bruh lmao

  442. Kev

    123-reg is the most obvious one I think.

  443. BASSGOD has left

  444. qrpnxz

    you bastard, anyway, i guess for bidi it's like i said, only applies if there's an RTL somewhere in the whole domain name

  445. mukt2 has left

  446. Kev

    I thought I started off by saying it was allowed ;)

  447. qrpnxz

    i mean idk why i didn't even try, clearly there's 4chan and 2ch

  448. qrpnxz


  449. flow

    qrpnxz, that bidi thing only applies to U-labels, no?

  450. flow

    so you could have a plain old LDH label with a digit at first position, but not a U-label

  451. qrpnxz

    domain names with RTL characters, it says

  452. qrpnxz

    a U-label could have it if no other part of the domain had an RTL char

  453. flow

    isn't that all something scoped within the context of IDNA / U-labels?

  454. qrpnxz

    necessarily the label with the RTL char would be a U-label if that's what you are talking about, but the bidi std says that the rule applies to all labels in a domain with any RTL chars

  455. mukt2 has joined

  456. BASSGOD has joined

  457. flow

    that's now what I remember, expect or have read, but then again, it's big area

  458. qrpnxz

    sorry, to be more accurate, that contains a char with bidi class of R, AL, or AN

  459. flow

    IIRC the bidi rules only applies to U-labels

  460. flow

    and I'd argue that todays DNS is not all U-labels (but could be wrong)

  461. qrpnxz

    it says "The following rule, consisting of six conditions, applies to labels in Bidi domain names." Which are domains with at least one RTL label. Which are labels that contains at least one char with bidi class R, AL, or AN

  462. flow

    it being?

  463. flow

    anyhow, isn't foobar in foobar.com an example of a non RTL label?

  464. flow

    (hmm what is bidi class AL…)

  465. qrpnxz

    AL is arabic letters, AN is arabic numbers

  466. qrpnxz

    R is most letters is non-arabic RTL scripts

  467. qrpnxz

    foobar.com is not a bidi domain name

  468. flow

    that's what I am saying

  469. qrpnxz

    neither foobar nor com are RTL labels

  470. flow

    so the bidi rule does not apply here

  471. qrpnxz


  472. flow

    which means I can have 9foobar.com

  473. qrpnxz


  474. adiaholic has left

  475. adiaholic has joined

  476. stpeter has joined

  477. stpeter has left

  478. flow

    ahh, now I understand what you said: not only does the bidi rule not apply if it isn't a U-label, but I can have a U-label without codepoints that would require the bidi rule

  479. qrpnxz

    yes :)

  480. qrpnxz

    9fóobar.com is also fair game

  481. Chan Shen has left

  482. flow

    <qrpnxz>  it gets caught in the bidi rule made me believe that you thought that the bidi rule would disallow a digit in the first place in very U-label

  483. alacer has left

  484. qrpnxz

    like i said, it applies if it's a bidi domain, which means it has at least one RTL label, which has at least one type R AL or AN char

  485. Chan Shen has joined

  486. qrpnxz

    which 9fóobar.com does not have

  487. Calvin has joined

  488. adiaholic has left

  489. dib has joined

  490. alacer has joined

  491. adiaholic has joined

  492. alacer has left

  493. alacer has joined

  494. alacer has left

  495. papatutuwawa has joined

  496. flow

    <qrpnxz>  it gets caught in the bidi rule made me believe that you thought that the bidi rule would disallow a digit in the first place in every U-label

  497. qrpnxz

    turns out no

  498. eevvoor


  499. eevvoor

    Amazing, such a long russian wikipedia article about the xsf.

  500. eevvoor


  501. Andrzej has joined

  502. Ge0rG

    Jabber is big in Russia

  503. adiaholic has left

  504. stp has joined

  505. ti_gj06 has joined

  506. edhelas

    That's why we have millions of $ of funding from the Kremlin to add security issues in the protocol

  507. eevvoor


  508. croax

    Unlucky they sent it to the wrong BTC address.

  509. menel has left

  510. eevvoor

    Perhaps we should change policy to accept rubels also.

  511. adiaholic has joined

  512. dwd

    It's a little out of date. It says Кевин Смит is still on Council.

  513. eevvoor

    It is amazing that they care about the names.

  514. eevvoor

    Who the hell finds it interesting to have a membership list on wikipedia?

  515. Kev

    dwd: And I always will be in spirit :)

  516. wendy has joined

  517. menel has joined

  518. floretta has left

  519. floretta has joined

  520. adiaholic has left

  521. karoshi has joined

  522. adiaholic has joined

  523. wgreenhouse has joined

  524. adiaholic has left

  525. karoshi has left

  526. andrey.g has left

  527. adiaholic has joined

  528. rion

    Kremlin didn't come to me yet =) but FSB (ФСБ/FSS) did.

  529. stp has left

  530. lskdjf has joined

  531. Ge0rG

    The German Federal Cartel Office is doing an investigation of chat services, and they would like to inquire the operators of "Jabber", in German, via snail mail. Can Board empower somebody to respond on behalf of the XSF? I'd volunteer, unless Daniel wants to step in.

  532. Ge0rG


  533. flow

    Is board the right entity given that board does not represent a chat service?

  534. flow

    That said, the XSF should try to be present in this discussion

  535. flow

    but clarify that there is a difference between "chat service" and "chat protocol". Maybe on the example of email

  536. flow

    "distributed open-standard chat procol" that is

  537. Ge0rG

    flow: I'd take care of that

  538. flow

    I'd expect nothing less :)

  539. flow

    so some XSF representative *and* another represenstative from a XMPP-based "chat service" would be ideal

  540. flow

    hence why not appoint Ge0rG, and send daniel?

  541. stp has joined

  542. flow

    (given that he wants to)

  543. jonas’

    what do you mean by that?

  544. eevvoor

    why not write it and share it here?

  545. eevvoor

    before "submission"

  546. karoshi has joined

  547. flow

    eevvoor, I don't think anyone would mind that. but first board has to decide/delegate

  548. Daniel

    flow: a few people in the xmpp verse have been requested to participate on their own behalf

  549. Daniel

    Meaning there is probably already some diversity in it

  550. flow

    Daniel, ahh, ok, that sound good then

  551. flow

    Daniel, ahh, ok, that sounds good then

  552. Ge0rG

    I know of inquiries to Jitsi and BBB

  553. adiaholic has left

  554. eevvoor


  555. adiaholic has joined

  556. stp has left

  557. dib has left

  558. papatutuwawa has left

  559. adiaholic has left

  560. ti_gj06 has left

  561. Daniel

    I wouldn't make too much of a big deal out of it. Just have Ge0rG do it if he wants to

  562. qrpnxz

    argh i accidentally cleared this chat as i was reading the juicy part

  563. jonas’

    qrpnxz, https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2021-05-20

  564. qrpnxz

    wow life saver

  565. dwd

    We've a Board meeting this evening, so we can rubber-stamp Georg if that works?

  566. qrpnxz

    > and another represenstative from a XMPP-based "chat service" would be ideal how about a random self-hoster xDDDDD

  567. Ge0rG

    dwd: that would be great, but please be gentle with the rubber-stamp

  568. jonas’

    yeah, a silicone stamp is more body-friendly

  569. qrpnxz

    do you know why the "German Federal Cartel Office" is doing a chat service investigation?

  570. Ge0rG

    does the ink contain lead?

  571. qrpnxz

    Investigation of what?

  572. dwd

    Branding? Tatooing?

  573. Ge0rG

    qrpnxz: I've linked their press release above, maybe some google translate might help

  574. dwd

    Ge0rG, Is tha "Cartel Office" the equivalent of the Monopolies and Mergers authority?

  575. qrpnxz

    Ge0rG, actually there's an en version https://www.bundeskartellamt.de/SharedDocs/Meldung/EN/Pressemitteilungen/2020/12_11_2020_SU_Messenger_Services.html;jsessionid=29F37418ED730DE76B91478F56EDD02E.2_cid387?nn=3591568

  576. qrpnxz

    Ge0rG, actually there's an en version https://www.bundeskartellamt.de/SharedDocs/Meldung/EN/Pressemitteilungen/2020/12_11_2020_SU_Messenger_Services.html

  577. Ge0rG

    qrpnxz: it's probably rooted in the monopolies of Facebook and such, and they want to see how to ensure interop. This has been going on for a year or two now

  578. Ge0rG

    qrpnxz: cool

  579. qrpnxz

    looks like they are investigating user data protections

  580. qrpnxz

    > Furthermore, in most cases it is not possible for users to communicate with each other by using different messenger services. GO XMPP

  581. Ge0rG

    dwd: I can't possibly answer that without knowing what the latter is about, and it looks like the M&M was replaced at least twice since.

  582. jonas’

    the name *does* sound like it could match the kartellamt tho

  583. adiaholic has joined

  584. stp has joined

  585. neshtaxmpp has left

  586. qrpnxz

    btw, wikipedia: " Federal Cartel Office (German: Bundeskartellamt) is Germany's national competition regulator." So "Monopolies Authority" sounds about right.

  587. neshtaxmpp has joined

  588. Link Mauve has left

  589. papatutuwawa has joined

  590. adiaholic has left

  591. Link Mauve has joined

  592. moparisthebest

    Mexico's Federal Cartel Office is quite different

  593. qrpnxz

    i think it's https://www.cofece.mx

  594. adiaholic has joined

  595. BASSGOD has left

  596. Steve Kille has joined

  597. adiaholic has left

  598. adiaholic has joined

  599. stp has left

  600. Chan Shen has left

  601. Chan Shen has joined

  602. babacb has left

  603. lskdjf has left

  604. mukt2 has left

  605. mukt2 has joined

  606. lskdjf has joined

  607. adiaholic has left

  608. Maranda has left

  609. Maranda has joined

  610. stpeter has joined

  611. stpeter has left

  612. edhelas


  613. adiaholic has joined

  614. BASSGOD has joined

  615. adiaholic has left

  616. papatutuwawa has left

  617. adiaholic has joined

  618. BASSGOD has left

  619. Adi has left

  620. eevvoor has left

  621. adiaholic has left

  622. eevvoor has joined

  623. BASSGOD has joined

  624. adiaholic has joined

  625. mukt2 has left

  626. floretta has left

  627. floretta has joined

  628. Kev has left

  629. Kev has joined

  630. chronosx88 has left

  631. chronosx88 has joined

  632. BASSGOD has left

  633. ti_gj06 has joined

  634. BASSGOD has joined

  635. floretta has left

  636. floretta has joined

  637. floretta has left

  638. floretta has joined

  639. floretta has left

  640. floretta has joined

  641. adiaholic has left

  642. adiaholic has joined

  643. Kev has left

  644. Kev has joined

  645. mukt2 has joined

  646. Kev has left

  647. Kev has joined

  648. floretta has left

  649. floretta has joined

  650. Andrzej has left

  651. Andrzej has joined

  652. Andrzej has left

  653. arc has joined

  654. Kev has left

  655. Kev has joined

  656. arc

    It is about that time again

  657. peetah has left

  658. peetah has joined

  659. MattJ

    That comes quick

  660. arc

    Yeah weekly meetings do that

  661. emus has left

  662. Kev has left

  663. Kev has joined

  664. arc has left

  665. arc has joined

  666. ralphm bangs gavel

  667. ralphm

    0. Welcome

  668. ralphm


  669. ralphm

    Who do we have today?

  670. dwd waves

  671. adiaholic has left

  672. babacb has joined

  673. MattJ


  674. ralphm

    Any point for our agenda?

  675. arc


  676. dwd

    Yes, the Ge0rG / German Cartel thing mentioned earlier today.

  677. Ge0rG

    dwd wanted to rubber-stamp me.

  678. arc has left

  679. arc has joined

  680. adiaholic has joined

  681. ralphm

    Missed that, but ok.

  682. ralphm

    1. Minute taker

  683. arc

    I took meeting minutes last 2 weeks

  684. ralphm

    Yes. I think that's dwd now

  685. dwd


  686. ralphm

    2. "rubber-stamping Ge0rG"

  687. dwd

    Ge0rG, Want to explain?

  688. Ge0rG


  689. Ge0rG

    The Federal Cartel Office of Germany (Bundeskartellamt) is inquiring different IM providers about interoperability and similar topics.

  690. Kev has left

  691. Kev has joined

  692. Ge0rG

    They have also approached the person behind freie-messenger.de about a contact for "Jabber" in the context of chat and video calls.

  693. elliot020 has joined

  694. Ge0rG

    I suppose that they mean XMPP and not the Cisco product, and I think somebody from the XSF should step in to participate in their questionnaire.

  695. Ge0rG

    I would step up to do so on behalf of the XSF

  696. Ge0rG

    They require an address in Germany and some hopefully small time effort.

  697. dwd

    So, I think this is a fine idea, and if Ge0rG is happy to do it that's great. I think Board should be sanctioning "speaking on behalf of the XSF", but in this case I feel it's a formality.

  698. Ge0rG

    So I would like to get rubber-stamped by the XSF Board as the Official Ambassador Of XMPP For The German Government.

  699. Kev has left

  700. Kev has joined

  701. ralphm


  702. MattJ

    Sounds good to me

  703. ralphm

    I think we've previously used the word liason, but in general I'd be happy to have Ge0rG be the in-between.

  704. adiaholic has left

  705. dwd

    I think it should be "The XMPP Ambassador to the Federal German Republic", technically, but whatever.

  706. papatutuwawa has joined

  707. dwd

    (For the avoidance of doubt, I am joking).

  708. ralphm

    Or rather "The XSF Ambassador...", as I've read people be sensitive about this even yesterday.

  709. Ge0rG

    dwd: I was just going to ask for a diplomatic passport.

  710. ralphm

    I take dwd's thinking as a motion.

  711. ralphm


  712. dwd


  713. ralphm dreads how this ends up in the minutes.

  714. MattJ


  715. ralphm


  716. Ge0rG

    dwd: technically it would be the "Federal Republic of Germany".

  717. mathijs has left

  718. arc


  719. Ge0rG

    Thank you very much, I'm honored to represent the XSF in #Neuland.

  720. arc

    Ok so who's making him the officially xmpp loferl socken?

  721. ralphm

    Motion carries. Congrats!

  722. floretta has left

  723. BASSGOD has left

  724. floretta has joined

  725. Ge0rG

    For the minutes, you can link the slowly loading page at https://www.bundeskartellamt.de/SharedDocs/Meldung/EN/Pressemitteilungen/2020/12_11_2020_SU_Messenger_Services.html

  726. mukt2 has left

  727. ralphm

    arc: I believe you just volunteered

  728. arc


  729. ralphm

    3. Open Collective

  730. ralphm

    From what I've seen Peter was dedicating an hour on this earlier this month. I haven't seen an update, yet.

  731. ralphm

    Sam pinged earlier today.

  732. ralphm

    4. AOB

  733. ralphm


  734. arc

    Not this week

  735. ralphm

    arc: but you have one for next week?

  736. ralphm

    I'll wait in anticipation.

  737. arc

    Maybe. We'll have to see

  738. ralphm

    5. Data of Next

  739. ralphm


  740. ralphm

    6. Close

  741. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  742. ralphm bangs gavel

  743. arc

    Ge0rG: medium shoe and calf size? 😏

  744. ralphm

    Is that the new ASL?

  745. arc

    For the Loferl Socken!

  746. adiaholic has joined

  747. MattJ

    Thanks all

  748. ralphm

    arc: sure

  749. Ge0rG

    As long as I'm not supposed to wear a Dirndl.

  750. dwd

    Just a hoodie.

  751. ralphm

    _just_ a hoodie?

  752. arc

    No it would be great to get you in a photo wearing xmpp socks and the leather pants

  753. dwd

    arc, Now you remind me I need to work on that CoC...

  754. arc

    But seriously just yesterday I was talking to a friend about loferl socken to be worn under rugby socks because they look super warm, and as long as they are less than 5mm thick they would not violate any rules.

  755. mukt2 has joined

  756. arc

    I have known a few people that have worn foam shin pads under their socks. But yeah anyways I was downloading knit patterns to make them

  757. dwd

    Minutes send.

  758. dwd

    Minutes sent.

  759. Andrzej has joined

  760. ralphm

    Isn't the warmth simply because their 100% wool and roughly knit?

  761. ralphm

    Isn't the warmth simply because they're 100% wool and roughly knit?

  762. arc

    And they are literally anything around the calves. Rugby socks are typically knee-high but also typically thin so they are not all that warm

  763. marek has left

  764. arc

    I have played in the snow. So I can testify that they are not that warm. As can all of the bonfires with players huddled around them

  765. marek has joined

  766. dwd

    I seem to recall that was just considered character building.

  767. adiaholic has left

  768. ralphm

    So basically you need some kind of Merino over-the-calf socks

  769. arc

    In my experience is not very. When we were playing in Manchester England it was pissing rain at around 2c out, and windy, and I had a miserable weekend

  770. dwd

    Or, you know, just not play rugby when it's cold.

  771. arc

    ralphm: that's what Loferl Socken is

  772. ralphm

    arc: note that Merino

  773. arc

    That's a brand, isn't it?

  774. dwd

    Also, Manchester, 2°C and heavy rain - so July or August? The rest of the year it's windy, too...

  775. Ge0rG

    arc: let me know when you have my XMPP branded Loferl ready, and I will arrange for a photo in leather pants.

  776. ralphm

    It is a breed of sheep with certain wool quality, and you now often see it used as a type-of-wool. Often thin but warm.

  777. ralphm

    Might make it easier to search

  778. ralphm

    dwd: if people wouldn't play rugby when it's cold, how did it ever take off in England?

  779. emus has joined

  780. dwd

    ralphm, I spent much of my childhood asking the same question.

  781. mathieui

    dwd, those are fast minutes!

  782. ralphm


  783. dwd

    ralphm, Usually while being forced into playing Rugby.

  784. Kev

    <Arc> the XSF is too European. <also Arc> I demand our liason wears loferl socken.

  785. Kev


  786. ralphm


  787. Adi has joined

  788. mathijs has joined

  789. arc has left

  790. Andrzej has left

  791. adiaholic has joined

  792. pjn has left

  793. andy has left

  794. adiaholic has left

  795. andy has joined

  796. pjn has joined

  797. krauq has left

  798. krauq has joined

  799. alacer has joined

  800. papatutuwawa has left

  801. alacer has left

  802. adiaholic has joined

  803. adiaholic has left

  804. Kev has left

  805. Kev has joined

  806. adiaholic has joined

  807. pjn has left

  808. pjn has joined

  809. Andrzej has joined

  810. andrey.g has joined

  811. adiaholic has left

  812. peetah has left

  813. marc has left

  814. marc has joined

  815. peetah has joined

  816. adiaholic has joined

  817. Kev has left

  818. Kev has joined

  819. Kev has left

  820. Andrzej has left

  821. Kev has joined

  822. adiaholic has left

  823. Kev has left

  824. Kev has joined

  825. Wojtek has left

  826. Andrzej has joined

  827. Kev has left

  828. Kev has joined

  829. Maranda has left

  830. Maranda has joined

  831. adiaholic has joined

  832. marc0s has left

  833. marc0s has joined

  834. marc0s has left

  835. marc0s has joined

  836. adiaholic has left

  837. marek has left

  838. pjn has left

  839. adiaholic has joined

  840. papatutuwawa has joined

  841. Andrzej has left

  842. Kev has left

  843. Kev has joined

  844. Kev has left

  845. Kev has joined

  846. mathijs has left

  847. mathijs has joined

  848. Andrzej has joined

  849. alacer has joined

  850. alacer has left

  851. adiaholic has left

  852. marc has left

  853. pjn has joined

  854. adiaholic has joined

  855. andrey.g has left

  856. LNJ has left

  857. Kev has left

  858. Kev has joined

  859. adiaholic has left

  860. Kev has left

  861. Kev has joined

  862. Andrzej has left

  863. Kev has left

  864. Kev has joined

  865. ti_gj06 has left

  866. marc has joined

  867. LNJ has joined

  868. Andrzej has joined

  869. Kev has left

  870. Kev has joined

  871. adiaholic has joined

  872. andrey.g has joined

  873. stp has joined

  874. adiaholic has left

  875. Kev has left

  876. Kev has joined

  877. elliot020 has left

  878. elliot020 has joined

  879. roro has joined

  880. adiaholic has joined

  881. xecks has left

  882. xecks has joined

  883. Kev has left

  884. Kev has joined

  885. babacb has left

  886. babacb has joined

  887. adiaholic has left

  888. Kev has left

  889. Kev has joined

  890. neshtaxmpp has left

  891. neshtaxmpp has joined

  892. ti_gj06 has joined

  893. adiaholic has joined

  894. Andrzej has left

  895. Andrzej has joined

  896. alameyo has joined

  897. adiaholic has left

  898. adiaholic has joined

  899. raghavgururajan has joined

  900. Ge0rG

    Is xmpp.org especially slow tonight?

  901. moparisthebest

    seems fine to me

  902. neshtaxmpp has left

  903. neshtaxmpp has joined

  904. adiaholic has left

  905. alameyo has left

  906. moparisthebest

    https://xmpp.org/software/libraries.html has "project name: txmpp, languages: linux" ? it's neither a library nor is it written in a programming language named linux...

  907. marc0s has left

  908. marc0s has joined

  909. marc0s has left

  910. marc0s has joined

  911. lskdjf has left

  912. mathieui

    moparisthebest, we went through this already, I think someone needs to put the work in adding a new page for "tools" or whatever

  913. mathieui

    (which txmpp is)

  914. moparisthebest

    it looks like a sendxmpp that relies on libstrophe from the link

  915. werdan has joined

  916. lovetox has left

  917. moparisthebest

    looks like it's already on this "tools" page https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/User:MDosch/Sendxmpp_incarnations

  918. lorddavidiii has left

  919. jubalh

    this one seems more like the library: https://github.com/rpavlik/txmpp

  920. moparisthebest

    interesting, seems abandoned though

  921. Ge0rG

    The language would be "Unix shell"

  922. moparisthebest

    the one on libraries.html is actually written in C

  923. moparisthebest

    "Linux" makes no sense regardless

  924. chronosx88 has left

  925. moparisthebest

    what in the world https://github.com/rpavlik/txmpp/blob/master/src/Equifax_Secure_Global_eBusiness_CA-1.h

  926. wendy has left

  927. lskdjf has joined

  928. lovetox has joined

  929. mukt2 has left

  930. chronosx88 has joined

  931. mukt2 has joined

  932. Kev has left

  933. Kev has joined

  934. roro

    Applogies for the random message. I was told that I should ask this here to get a precise answer. I am looking for fundamental differences between XMPP and MATRIX. I'm sure quite a bit has been written already. If you have an exhaustive link to point me, that would be great.

  935. roro

    If you just have some bullets for me...I'll take it 🙂

  936. peetah has left

  937. govanify has left

  938. peetah has joined

  939. govanify has joined

  940. moparisthebest

    there are a lot of major differences, I can list a couple: 1. XMPP is an established standard with RFCs that has passed the test of time, Matrix is a... VC funded project? 2. XMPP is a message passing protocol, Matrix is some... eventually consistent graph thing? This is why matrix servers take insane amounts of resources

  941. Yagiza has left

  942. peetah has left

  943. peetah has joined

  944. dib has joined

  945. marek has joined

  946. Zash

    eventually consistent globally replicated JSON graph database

  947. adiaholic has joined

  948. roro

    > eventually consistent globally replicated JSON graph database Don't know if it's just me, sounds complicated.

  949. wendy has joined

  950. adiaholic has left

  951. moparisthebest

    roro, also XMPP is XML over TLS, Matrix is JSON over HTTPS, that's more on the level of implementation detail that doesn't matter though

  952. floretta has left

  953. floretta has joined

  954. floretta has left

  955. floretta has joined

  956. dib has left

  957. floretta has left

  958. floretta has joined

  959. neshtaxmpp has left

  960. neshtaxmpp has joined

  961. bean has left

  962. LNJ has left

  963. LNJ has joined

  964. goffi has left

  965. x51 has left

  966. Chan Shen has left

  967. Andrzej has left

  968. peetah has left

  969. Maranda has left

  970. Maranda has joined

  971. werdan has left

  972. chronosx88 has left

  973. chronosx88 has joined

  974. marek has left

  975. emus

    dwd, ralphm arc I also offered Ge0rG help if I can do something. And I also followed the process so far. And some other members here too.

  976. emus

    > jubalh escribió: > this one seems more like the library: https://github.com/rpavlik/txmpp We allocated this to Libaries/Tools on the website I thinl

  977. emus


  978. BASSGOD has joined

  979. mathijs has left

  980. mathijs has joined

  981. BASSGOD has left

  982. andy has left

  983. mathijs has left

  984. mathijs has joined

  985. marc0s has left

  986. marc0s has joined

  987. karoshi has left

  988. papatutuwawa has left

  989. pasdesushi has joined

  990. marc0s has left

  991. marc0s has joined

  992. marc0s has left

  993. marc0s has joined

  994. ti_gj06 has left

  995. mukt2 has left

  996. bean has joined

  997. mukt2 has joined

  998. bean has left

  999. bean has joined

  1000. bean has left

  1001. adiaholic has joined

  1002. bean has joined

  1003. pasdesushi has left

  1004. alameyo has joined

  1005. pasdesushi has joined

  1006. mukt2 has left

  1007. adiaholic has left

  1008. mukt2 has joined

  1009. pasdesushi has left

  1010. peetah has joined

  1011. pasdesushi has joined

  1012. pasdesushi has left

  1013. pasdesushi has joined

  1014. wurstsalat has left

  1015. pasdesushi has left

  1016. pasdesushi has joined

  1017. pasdesushi has left

  1018. pasdesushi has joined

  1019. Kev has left

  1020. Kev has joined

  1021. pasdesushi has left

  1022. xecks has left

  1023. marc0s has left

  1024. marc0s has joined

  1025. Alex has left

  1026. roro has left

  1027. pasdesushi has joined

  1028. pjn has left

  1029. pasdesushi has left

  1030. pasdesushi has joined

  1031. Calvin has left

  1032. pjn has joined

  1033. Alex has joined

  1034. BASSGOD has joined

  1035. pasdesushi has left

  1036. pasdesushi has joined

  1037. pasdesushi has left

  1038. nyco has left

  1039. pasdesushi has joined

  1040. lovetox has left

  1041. pasdesushi has left

  1042. debacle has left

  1043. mukt2 has left

  1044. nyco has joined

  1045. marc0s has left

  1046. marc0s has joined

  1047. emus has left

  1048. elliot020 has left

  1049. Kev has left

  1050. jcbrand has left

  1051. Kev has joined

  1052. Tobias has left

  1053. elliot020 has joined

  1054. elliot020 has left

  1055. mukt2 has joined

  1056. marek has joined

  1057. pjn has left

  1058. pjn has joined

  1059. stpeter has joined

  1060. stpeter has left