alright, took me about 300 lines to make the domainpart parser. Not too bad lol
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flow
for just the parser, that sounds like to much LOC
flow
for something that prepares, validates and enforces the domainpart, it is way to less (assuming no external libraries)
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qrpnxz
definitely leaned on many libraries for it, and it's just the parser (which by definition validates btw), so the preperation part. I didn't do enforcement, because I actually don't know what the spec means by that. I think I just do that when I'm going to do comparison, or if I'm going to store or forwards the information.✎
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qrpnxz
definitely leaned on many libraries for it, and it's just the parser (which by definition validates btw) I didn't do enforcement, because I actually don't know what the spec means by that. I think I just do that when I'm going to do comparison, or if I'm going to store or forwards the information.✎✏
qrpnxz
definitely leaned on many libraries for it, and it's just the parser (which by definition validates btw). I didn't do enforcement, because I actually don't know what the spec means by that. I think I just do that when I'm going to do comparison, or if I'm going to store or forwards the information. ✏
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flow
depends on your use case, servers to a lot of jid comparision and "is child of" checking. so it appears sensible to store the enforced variant of the JID representation
Zash
What /does/ enforcement mean?
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flow
IIRC lowercasing the localpart for example
Zash
So convert everything to the normalized form and reject invalid values?
flow
I'd assume rejecting happens in the validation step
Zash
We occationally have users who REALLY want their UserName case to be preserved. :)
flow
I'm sure you do
flow
hmm it appears in PRECIS, validatation and enforcement are in the same step "enforcement"
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flow
qrpnxz, I am sure you checked the RFC's errata for additional information regarding domainpart validation, right? :)
qrpnxz
i have not finished reading the spec even :) Thanks for heads up tho
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qrpnxz
enforcement seems to be about taking an almost valid jid and doing some transformations on it so that it's actually conformant✎
qrpnxz
enforcement seems to be about taking an almost valid jid (say from user input) and doing some transformations on it so that it's actually conformant ✏
qrpnxz
yeah i'm pretty sure about this see RFC 5895
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flow
qrpnxz, what about ipv6 addresses in the domainpart? maybe there are code points that IDNA disallows that are valid in an IPv6 address?
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qrpnxz
IDNA is not relevant to IP addresses, only if you detect that it must be a domain name do you start worrying about that
qrpnxz
flow,
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flow
right, but you should not allow arbitrary strings if it is not a DNS name
flow
and, how do you detect that is must be a DNS name?
qrpnxz
if it starts with a number it has to be ipv4, if it starts with a '[' it better be ipv6, otherwise i start trying to parse a domain name
flow
DNS labels can start with digits, so that's not sound
qrpnxz
LDH cannot start with digits
qrpnxz
U-labels maaaaybe. And maybe when i find time to care i change the code to try domain name even when it starts with a digit. That would not be hard.
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5890 didn't say so, only the hypen bit
Kev
I thought that was relaxed in a later RFC.
qrpnxz
yeah 5890 defers to 1034 on a lot of details
Kev
(Starting with a number, not the hyphen)
Kev
But I don’t have this swapped in.
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Kev
1123 maybe? I don’t have time to read it to check.
Kev
Blah. I got sucked in
Kev
2.1 Host Names and Numbers
The syntax of a legal Internet host name was specified in RFC-952
[DNS:4]. One aspect of host name syntax is hereby changed: the
restriction on the first character is relaxed to allow either a
letter or a digit. Host software MUST support this more liberal
syntax.
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qrpnxz
hmm, nice find. Problem is that it breaks the bidi rule
qrpnxz
Kev, which are you quoting from
Kev
1123
qrpnxz
wait, but this is for host names, is that really the same as a domain name?
Kev
Down this path madness lies. Don’t say you haven’t been warned :D
qrpnxz
also, a host here can be an ip or a domain name, so ofc a host name should be able to start with a number, but this is not necessarily the case for a domain name
qrpnxz
yeah i'm certain this is what that's for
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flow
it's confusing, isn't it? rfc5890 even explicitly says that LDH label rules are modified by rfc1123
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Kev
> yeah i'm certain this is what that's for
Honestly, if you’re still at the point of being certain about anything you’ve not spent long enough looking at name stuffs :D
flow
I tend to lean towards rfc1123 § 2.1 talking about "DNS labels" when "host name syntax"
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flow
the problem is, besides what Kev mentioned, terminology
qrpnxz
Kev, correction: I'm certain this is how i'm going to interpret it xD.
flow
"domain name", "host name", are not well defined terms
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flow
"DNS name", "DNS label" are
Kev
Actually, domain name and host name both *are* well defined, I think. The former in 1034 and the latter in 1123. It’s just that … yeah.
qrpnxz
even the JID standard just tells you about RFC5890 in an informational note. The actual requirement is that it be a FQDN, which the standard also admits as not well defined lol
Kev
It’s defined what format they have, but not what the *are* :)✎
Kev
It’s defined what format they have, but not what they *are* :) ✏
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flow
Kev, not sure if this is the case for "domain name", rfc1034 even admits "The terms "domain" or "domain name" are used in many contexts beyond the
DNS described here."
Kev
Fair.
flow
where "DNS name" is unambiguous
Kev
But frequently unhelpful!
flow
of course, you could argue that it is well defined to be not well defined
qrpnxz
xd
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flow
qrpnxz, would you mind elaborating on the bidi rule thingy you mentioned?
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qrpnxz
yeah so for full unicode labels there's all kinds of rules for what code points are allowed, and one of them has to do with the directionality of the text (left-to-right, right-to-left). A label is only valid if it passes this test. Link: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5893#section-2
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flow
and having a digit at first position causes issues with the bidi rule because?
flow
(note that I may have misunderstood you)
qrpnxz
well it violates condition one, for starters
flow
right
flow
so you can't have a U-label starting with a digit
flow
but you can have a A-label
flow
so 1soccer.us would be fine as DNS name and as XMPP domainpart
flow
but 1fußball.de would not be fine as DNS name (but I believe it would be fine as XMPP domainpart)
flow
then again, a XMPP domainpart that does not may well to a DNS name is mostly useless✎
flow
then again, a XMPP domainpart that does not map well to a DNS name is mostly useless ✏
qrpnxz
A-labels start with xn-- remember :)
flow
no
qrpnxz
yes
flow
no
qrpnxz
this is just fact sorry
qrpnxz
quote "This means, by definition,
that every A-label will begin with the IDNA ACE prefix, "xn--""
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3696#section-2 add any light here? :)
flow
moar rfcs!!!!
qrpnxz
i refered to 1123 because you brought it up lol
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qrpnxz
but 5890 refers to 1034 on what a valid LDH label is
flow
Kev, I think it does, and I am pretty sure I've read all that ages ago
flow
the second paragaph only mentions the hypen rule, nothing about disallowing a digit in the first position
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qrpnxz
my god everything is mislinked but i found something one sec
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qrpnxz
"a segment of a host domain name is now allowed
to begin with a digit and could legally be entirely numeric
(see Section 6.1.2.4). However, a valid host name can never
have the dotted-decimal form #.#.#.#, since at least the
highest-level component label will be alphabetic"
this is from 1123, twas hidden later on in the text. (Section 6.1.2.4 is totally completely unrelated btw) So the answer here seems to be then to only apply the bidi rule if there are any RTL characters. (I'll have to check if there was a correction of the rule.)✎
qrpnxz
"a segment of a host domain name is now allowed
to begin with a digit and could legally be entirely numeric
(see Section 6.1.2.4). However, a valid host name can never
have the dotted-decimal form #.#.#.#, since at least the
highest-level component label will be alphabetic"
this is from 1123 section 2.1, twas hidden later on in the text. (Section 6.1.2.4 is totally completely unrelated btw) So the answer here seems to be then to only apply the bidi rule if there are any RTL characters. (I'll have to check if there was a correction of the rule.) ✏
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qrpnxz
this i think is better evidence that it also applies to domain names in general
Kev
> Honestly, if you’re still at the point of being certain about anything you’ve not spent long enough looking at name stuffs :D
I’ll just leave this here :)
qrpnxz
real world proof of number domain name https://37signals.com/
qrpnxz
will get back to you guys on the bidi thing
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Kev
Oh, I could have come up with exxamples if asked :)
qrpnxz
bruh lmao
Kev
123-reg is the most obvious one I think.
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qrpnxz
you bastard, anyway, i guess for bidi it's like i said, only applies if there's an RTL somewhere in the whole domain name
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Kev
I thought I started off by saying it was allowed ;)
qrpnxz
i mean idk why i didn't even try, clearly there's 4chan and 2ch
qrpnxz
hahaha
flow
qrpnxz, that bidi thing only applies to U-labels, no?
flow
so you could have a plain old LDH label with a digit at first position, but not a U-label
qrpnxz
domain names with RTL characters, it says
qrpnxz
a U-label could have it if no other part of the domain had an RTL char
flow
isn't that all something scoped within the context of IDNA / U-labels?
qrpnxz
necessarily the label with the RTL char would be a U-label if that's what you are talking about, but the bidi std says that the rule applies to all labels in a domain with any RTL chars
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flow
that's now what I remember, expect or have read, but then again, it's big area
qrpnxz
sorry, to be more accurate, that contains a char with bidi class of R, AL, or AN
flow
IIRC the bidi rules only applies to U-labels
flow
and I'd argue that todays DNS is not all U-labels (but could be wrong)
qrpnxz
it says "The following rule, consisting of six conditions, applies to labels
in Bidi domain names." Which are domains with at least one RTL label. Which are labels that contains at least one char with bidi class R, AL, or AN
flow
it being?
flow
anyhow, isn't foobar in foobar.com an example of a non RTL label?
flow
(hmm what is bidi class AL…)
qrpnxz
AL is arabic letters, AN is arabic numbers
qrpnxz
R is most letters is non-arabic RTL scripts
qrpnxz
foobar.com is not a bidi domain name
flow
that's what I am saying
qrpnxz
neither foobar nor com are RTL labels
flow
so the bidi rule does not apply here
qrpnxz
correct
flow
which means I can have 9foobar.com
qrpnxz
correct
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flow
ahh, now I understand what you said: not only does the bidi rule not apply if it isn't a U-label, but I can have a U-label without codepoints that would require the bidi rule
qrpnxz
yes :)
qrpnxz
9fóobar.com is also fair game
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flow
<qrpnxz> it gets caught in the bidi rule
made me believe that you thought that the bidi rule would disallow a digit in the first place in very U-label✎
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qrpnxz
like i said, it applies if it's a bidi domain, which means it has at least one RTL label, which has at least one type R AL or AN char
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qrpnxz
which 9fóobar.com does not have
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flow
<qrpnxz> it gets caught in the bidi rule
made me believe that you thought that the bidi rule would disallow a digit in the first place in every U-label ✏
Amazing, such a long russian wikipedia article about the xsf.
eevvoor
😲️
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Ge0rG
Jabber is big in Russia
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edhelas
That's why we have millions of $ of funding from the Kremlin to add security issues in the protocol
eevvoor
🤦♂️️
croax
Unlucky they sent it to the wrong BTC address.
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eevvoor
Perhaps we should change policy to accept rubels also.
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dwd
It's a little out of date. It says Кевин Смит is still on Council.
eevvoor
It is amazing that they care about the names.
eevvoor
Who the hell finds it interesting to have a membership list on wikipedia?
Kev
dwd: And I always will be in spirit :)
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rion
Kremlin didn't come to me yet =) but FSB (ФСБ/FSS) did.
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Ge0rG
The German Federal Cartel Office is doing an investigation of chat services, and they would like to inquire the operators of "Jabber", in German, via snail mail. Can Board empower somebody to respond on behalf of the XSF? I'd volunteer, unless Daniel wants to step in.
I wouldn't make too much of a big deal out of it. Just have Ge0rG do it if he wants to
qrpnxz
argh i accidentally cleared this chat as i was reading the juicy part
jonas’
qrpnxz, https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2021-05-20
qrpnxz
wow life saver
dwd
We've a Board meeting this evening, so we can rubber-stamp Georg if that works?
qrpnxz
> and another represenstative from a XMPP-based "chat service" would be ideal
how about a random self-hoster xDDDDD
Ge0rG
dwd: that would be great, but please be gentle with the rubber-stamp
jonas’
yeah, a silicone stamp is more body-friendly
qrpnxz
do you know why the "German Federal Cartel Office" is doing a chat service investigation?
Ge0rG
does the ink contain lead?
qrpnxz
Investigation of what?
dwd
Branding? Tatooing?
Ge0rG
qrpnxz: I've linked their press release above, maybe some google translate might help
dwd
Ge0rG, Is tha "Cartel Office" the equivalent of the Monopolies and Mergers authority?
qrpnxz
Ge0rG, actually there's an en version https://www.bundeskartellamt.de/SharedDocs/Meldung/EN/Pressemitteilungen/2020/12_11_2020_SU_Messenger_Services.html;jsessionid=29F37418ED730DE76B91478F56EDD02E.2_cid387?nn=3591568✎
qrpnxz
Ge0rG, actually there's an en version https://www.bundeskartellamt.de/SharedDocs/Meldung/EN/Pressemitteilungen/2020/12_11_2020_SU_Messenger_Services.html ✏
Ge0rG
qrpnxz: it's probably rooted in the monopolies of Facebook and such, and they want to see how to ensure interop. This has been going on for a year or two now
Ge0rG
qrpnxz: cool
qrpnxz
looks like they are investigating user data protections
qrpnxz
> Furthermore, in most cases it is not possible for users to communicate with each other by using different messenger services.
GO XMPP
Ge0rG
dwd: I can't possibly answer that without knowing what the latter is about, and it looks like the M&M was replaced at least twice since.
jonas’
the name *does* sound like it could match the kartellamt tho
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qrpnxz
btw, wikipedia: " Federal Cartel Office (German: Bundeskartellamt) is Germany's national competition regulator."
So "Monopolies Authority" sounds about right.
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moparisthebest
Mexico's Federal Cartel Office is quite different
qrpnxz
i think it's https://www.cofece.mx
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edhelas
covfefe
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arc
It is about that time again
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MattJ
That comes quick
arc
Yeah weekly meetings do that
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ralphmbangs gavel
ralphm
0. Welcome
ralphm
Hi!
ralphm
Who do we have today?
dwdwaves
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MattJ
o/
ralphm
Any point for our agenda?
arc
Here
dwd
Yes, the Ge0rG / German Cartel thing mentioned earlier today.
Ge0rG
dwd wanted to rubber-stamp me.
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ralphm
Missed that, but ok.
ralphm
1. Minute taker
arc
I took meeting minutes last 2 weeks
ralphm
Yes. I think that's dwd now
dwd
OK
ralphm
2. "rubber-stamping Ge0rG"
dwd
Ge0rG, Want to explain?
Ge0rG
Sure!
Ge0rG
The Federal Cartel Office of Germany (Bundeskartellamt) is inquiring different IM providers about interoperability and similar topics.
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Ge0rG
They have also approached the person behind freie-messenger.de about a contact for "Jabber" in the context of chat and video calls.
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Ge0rG
I suppose that they mean XMPP and not the Cisco product, and I think somebody from the XSF should step in to participate in their questionnaire.
Ge0rG
I would step up to do so on behalf of the XSF
Ge0rG
They require an address in Germany and some hopefully small time effort.
dwd
So, I think this is a fine idea, and if Ge0rG is happy to do it that's great. I think Board should be sanctioning "speaking on behalf of the XSF", but in this case I feel it's a formality.
Ge0rG
So I would like to get rubber-stamped by the XSF Board as the Official Ambassador Of XMPP For The German Government.
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ralphm
heh
MattJ
Sounds good to me
ralphm
I think we've previously used the word liason, but in general I'd be happy to have Ge0rG be the in-between.
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dwd
I think it should be "The XMPP Ambassador to the Federal German Republic", technically, but whatever.
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dwd
(For the avoidance of doubt, I am joking).
ralphm
Or rather "The XSF Ambassador...", as I've read people be sensitive about this even yesterday.
Ge0rG
dwd: I was just going to ask for a diplomatic passport.
ralphm
I take dwd's thinking as a motion.
ralphm
+1
dwd
+1
ralphmdreads how this ends up in the minutes.
MattJ
h+1
ralphm
arc?
Ge0rG
dwd: technically it would be the "Federal Republic of Germany".
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arc
+1
Ge0rG
Thank you very much, I'm honored to represent the XSF in #Neuland.
arc
Ok so who's making him the officially xmpp loferl socken?
ralphm
Motion carries. Congrats!
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Ge0rG
For the minutes, you can link the slowly loading page at https://www.bundeskartellamt.de/SharedDocs/Meldung/EN/Pressemitteilungen/2020/12_11_2020_SU_Messenger_Services.html
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ralphm
arc: I believe you just volunteered
arc
Yay!
ralphm
3. Open Collective
ralphm
From what I've seen Peter was dedicating an hour on this earlier this month. I haven't seen an update, yet.
ralphm
Sam pinged earlier today.
ralphm
4. AOB
ralphm
?
arc
Not this week
ralphm
arc: but you have one for next week?
ralphm
I'll wait in anticipation.
arc
Maybe. We'll have to see
ralphm
5. Data of Next
ralphm
+1W
ralphm
6. Close
ralphm
Thanks all!
ralphmbangs gavel
arc
Ge0rG: medium shoe and calf size? 😏
ralphm
Is that the new ASL?
arc
For the Loferl Socken!
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MattJ
Thanks all
ralphm
arc: sure
Ge0rG
As long as I'm not supposed to wear a Dirndl.
dwd
Just a hoodie.
ralphm
_just_ a hoodie?
arc
No it would be great to get you in a photo wearing xmpp socks and the leather pants
dwd
arc, Now you remind me I need to work on that CoC...
arc
But seriously just yesterday I was talking to a friend about loferl socken to be worn under rugby socks because they look super warm, and as long as they are less than 5mm thick they would not violate any rules.
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arc
I have known a few people that have worn foam shin pads under their socks. But yeah anyways I was downloading knit patterns to make them
Isn't the warmth simply because their 100% wool and roughly knit?✎
ralphm
Isn't the warmth simply because they're 100% wool and roughly knit? ✏
arc
And they are literally anything around the calves. Rugby socks are typically knee-high but also typically thin so they are not all that warm
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arc
I have played in the snow. So I can testify that they are not that warm. As can all of the bonfires with players huddled around them
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dwd
I seem to recall that was just considered character building.
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ralphm
So basically you need some kind of Merino over-the-calf socks
arc
In my experience is not very. When we were playing in Manchester England it was pissing rain at around 2c out, and windy, and I had a miserable weekend
dwd
Or, you know, just not play rugby when it's cold.
arc
ralphm: that's what Loferl Socken is
ralphm
arc: note that Merino
arc
That's a brand, isn't it?
dwd
Also, Manchester, 2°C and heavy rain - so July or August? The rest of the year it's windy, too...
Ge0rG
arc: let me know when you have my XMPP branded Loferl ready, and I will arrange for a photo in leather pants.
ralphm
It is a breed of sheep with certain wool quality, and you now often see it used as a type-of-wool. Often thin but warm.
ralphm
Might make it easier to search
ralphm
dwd: if people wouldn't play rugby when it's cold, how did it ever take off in England?
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dwd
ralphm, I spent much of my childhood asking the same question.
mathieui
dwd, those are fast minutes!
ralphm
haha
dwd
ralphm, Usually while being forced into playing Rugby.
Kev
<Arc> the XSF is too European.
<also Arc> I demand our liason wears loferl socken.
Kev
:D
ralphm
*boom*
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Ge0rG
Is xmpp.org especially slow tonight?
moparisthebest
seems fine to me
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moparisthebest
https://xmpp.org/software/libraries.html has "project name: txmpp, languages: linux" ? it's neither a library nor is it written in a programming language named linux...
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mathieui
moparisthebest, we went through this already, I think someone needs to put the work in adding a new page for "tools" or whatever
mathieui
(which txmpp is)
moparisthebest
it looks like a sendxmpp that relies on libstrophe from the link
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moparisthebest
looks like it's already on this "tools" page https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/User:MDosch/Sendxmpp_incarnations
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jubalh
this one seems more like the library: https://github.com/rpavlik/txmpp
moparisthebest
interesting, seems abandoned though
Ge0rG
The language would be "Unix shell"
moparisthebest
the one on libraries.html is actually written in C
moparisthebest
"Linux" makes no sense regardless
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moparisthebest
what in the world https://github.com/rpavlik/txmpp/blob/master/src/Equifax_Secure_Global_eBusiness_CA-1.h
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roro
Applogies for the random message. I was told that I should ask this here to get a precise answer.
I am looking for fundamental differences between XMPP and MATRIX. I'm sure quite a bit has been written already. If you have an exhaustive link to point me, that would be great.
roro
If you just have some bullets for me...I'll take it 🙂
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moparisthebest
there are a lot of major differences, I can list a couple:
1. XMPP is an established standard with RFCs that has passed the test of time, Matrix is a... VC funded project?
2. XMPP is a message passing protocol, Matrix is some... eventually consistent graph thing? This is why matrix servers take insane amounts of resources
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Zash
eventually consistent globally replicated JSON graph database
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roro
> eventually consistent globally replicated JSON graph database
Don't know if it's just me, sounds complicated.
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moparisthebest
roro, also XMPP is XML over TLS, Matrix is JSON over HTTPS, that's more on the level of implementation detail that doesn't matter though
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emus
dwd, ralphm arc I also offered Ge0rG help if I can do something. And I also followed the process so far. And some other members here too.
emus
> jubalh escribió:
> this one seems more like the library: https://github.com/rpavlik/txmpp
We allocated this to Libaries/Tools on the website I thinl