XSF Discussion - 2021-05-24

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  62. moparisthebest Wait a second, I was told a single monolithic spec avoided this: > The Conduit Matrix server (although not yet feature complete) is about 100x lighter on CPU than the server that runs matrix.org. > The developer is now being funded to work on it full time. It's usable for private non-federated servers already (federation is not advised currently, because it is unearthing spec non-compliance issues in various other Matrix servers and clients), which have not yet been fixed.
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  119. mdosch Did you ever use xmpp.com? Searx lead me to https://www.xmpp.com/extensions/xep-0371.html but the cert is invalid.
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  125. qrpnxz are there any de facto standard ports for xmpps? Or just some common ones that you suggest?
  126. Menel The standard is 5222 for client and 5269 for server. These ports every server and client will try automatically.
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  128. Menel The standard is 5222 for client and 5269 for server to server. These ports every server and client will try automatically.
  129. qrpnxz for xmpps
  130. qrpnxz not xmpp
  131. Menel Ah, overread that.
  132. qrpnxz np easy to miss
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  134. Menel I think its not really standardized, but maybe someone will correct me. People use 5223. You just advertise it where you want.
  135. qrpnxz so for i've only found one server with an xmpps record
  136. Menel Many have them
  137. qrpnxz yeah 404.city has _xmpps-client on 5223
  138. Menel https://compliance.conversations.im/old/
  139. Menel Everyone that is green for srv for tls
  140. qrpnxz looks like xmpp.jp has both xmpp and xmpps on 5269 for server. I wonder how they do that. Try a handshake and if it fails try a normal connection? Seems like a waste of time lol
  141. qrpnxz thx for list
  142. qrpnxz ah that might not be that bad tbh. Maybe i'll do that we'll see
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  146. qrpnxz i think you actually know if it's trying to be TLS or XML on the first byte even
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  181. Menel Doesn't really matter, since non other server supports it
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  183. Menel Direct TLS is for c2s
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  200. qrpnxz haha no
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  208. şişio XMPP really good and safe
  209. şişio I like it
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  228. şişio aTalk fdroid app hasnt got new aTalk version
  229. şişio I writed
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  235. eevvoor I never heard of the aTalk App. Who is the dev behind it`?
  236. eevvoor I never heard of the aTalk App. Who is the dev behind it?
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  239. mdosch https://github.com/cmeng-git/atalk-android
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  241. şişio > https://github.com/cmeng-git/atalk-android How do I download it?
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  243. mdosch Usually you won't build it yourself but install it from Google Play or Fdroid.
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  245. şişio > Usually you won't build it yourself but install it from Google Play or Fdroid. Fdroid doesn't have a new version
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  256. Menel Fdroid has problems to build it, it seems nit easy to get it right with the dependencys
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  350. şişio Hmm okay
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  380. moparisthebest qrpnxz, xep-368 direct tls is most valuable on port 443 due to crap firewalls, the most popular way servers multiplex is with sslh or nginx or something https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Tech_pages/XEP-0368
  381. qrpnxz agreed
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  383. moparisthebest I even suggest ignoring spec and hard-coding 443 as the fallback default for it , just don't tell certain people or they'll have a heart attack https://github.com/moparisthebest/xmpp-proxy/blob/master/src/srv.rs#L122
  384. Zash Depending on your socket and TLS library, you can check if the first byte is '<' or \27 (iirc) and decide plain/direct tls on that
  385. Zash throws things at moparisthebest
  386. moparisthebest ducks like a ninja
  387. qrpnxz checking for < is too risk, I would just check for w/e magic byte tls uses, and if it's not that then start trying to parse xml
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  390. moparisthebest qrpnxz, I check first 3 bytes to decide TLS or not https://github.com/moparisthebest/xmpp-proxy/blob/master/src/tls.rs#L145
  391. moparisthebest it probably is fine to just check if the first is 0x16
  392. Zash moparisthebest: Good job. You crashed my Dino 🙁
  393. Zash Some byte followed by two bytes representing the SSL version
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  396. qrpnxz moparisthebest, 0x16 is already not valid xml, so i'd try tls just based on that
  397. moparisthebest yes, I'll probably change it
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  399. qrpnxz and not that i'm super against checking a couple more bytes, but in Go it's gonna be trivial to unread one byte, but not anymore than that.
  400. qrpnxz in rust idk
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  405. qrpnxz lol thx for putting the rfc and section in the comments, i've been doing that as well xD
  406. moparisthebest yea if you scroll up a bit you'll see that I discovered it's almost impossible to read > 1 in rust too, and I resorted to hacks, and lamented that I should probably only check 0x16 only :P
  407. Sam I'm assuming you're using bufio in which case it's trivial to do either
  408. Sam but 1 byte is good enough either way
  409. qrpnxz bufio can only unread one byte
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  411. qrpnxz ah but you can peek more than that
  412. Sam https://pkg.go.dev/bufio#Reader.Peek
  413. qrpnxz lol
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  415. moparisthebest be carefuly though, looks similar to rust's API and it'll let you just spin forever waiting for 3 bytes that'll never come
  416. qrpnxz no worries i'm using timeouts
  417. qrpnxz but thx
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  419. Sam yah, the read will indeed spin, but if you haven't set timeouts that's a problem either way
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  421. qrpnxz you could also not have xmpp and xmpps on the same port then you don't have to this check :)
  422. qrpnxz it'd be interesting to have both a webpage and xmpp server on the same port tho. I don't know how HTTP/2 requests start however
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  424. Zash ALPN?
  425. qrpnxz alpn gives away it's xmpp
  426. Zash I thought we had arrived in the promised land of encrypted handshakes?
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  434. qrpnxz best not to use HTTP/2 actually. ``` implementations that support HTTP/2 over TLS MUST use protocol negotiation in TLS [TLS-ALPN]. ``` And if ALPN is used, XEP-0368 says to set it for xmpp.
  435. qrpnxz so you'd wanna do http 1.1, check that request looks like an http request or not, if it doesn't you start parsing xml.
  436. qrpnxz first 3-4 bytes should suffice for the request method
  437. Zash Uppercase ASCII letter
  438. Zash IIRC
  439. qrpnxz i'll check but probably
  440. Zash Prosodys mod_net_multiplex does ^[A-Z] → http for example.
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  442. Holger > so you'd wanna do http 1.1, check that request looks like an http request or not, if it doesn't you start parsing xml. After decades of developing Internet technology, we ended up with pure elegance.
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  444. qrpnxz 😁️
  445. Kev Isn’t checking for < sufficient to know it’s XML?
  446. qrpnxz Honestly doing [GHPDCOT] on the first byte should be good enough
  447. Kev Whether you preamble or not, that’ll be the first char.
  448. qrpnxz Kev, no because it doesn't have to start like that
  449. qrpnxz it could start with whitespace
  450. Kev We allow that?
  451. qrpnxz i can recheck
  452. Zash HTCPCP?
  453. qrpnxz but afaik yes
  454. Kev I had in my head that we didn’t, for some reason.
  455. qrpnxz yeah i don't see any such restriction, but if you find it let me know
  456. Zash Whitespace before `<?xml?>` is forbidden, I think. Expat rejects it at least.
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  458. qrpnxz ik other parser don't but that you SHOULD put it at the start for file type detection
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  460. Zash Seems to be just fine with whitespace before `<stream:stream ...` tho
  461. Zash The multiplex thing checks for a bunch more anyways
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  464. qrpnxz oh that's nice, XML 1.1 actually requires the xml decl. XML 1.0 only recommends it
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  466. Zash XMPP is XML 1.0 tho
  467. moparisthebest qrpnxz: don't forget SNI which you can abuse too, all of my TLS services work over port 443 using sslh
  468. qrpnxz SNI?
  469. Zash Personally it feels extremely redundant, since XMPP is always XML and UTF-8 and I think everything else you can say with <?xml?> is forbidden
  470. qrpnxz xmpp might not always use xml 1.0
  471. Zash Server Name Indication, what the HTTP world invented instead of telling which host (and thus cert) is expected prior to TLS.
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  474. Sam it will because almost no one implements 1.1 and at this point no one ever will
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  477. moparisthebest qrpnxz, like imap.example.org goes to dovecot and smtp.example.org goes to postfix etc etc
  478. qrpnxz i plan to, it's not that different either, just adds internationalization stuff
  479. moparisthebest and there is no negotiation for xml 1.1 meaning... it'll never happen
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  481. Zash Wouldn't the "modern" way be to add some ALPN XMPP 2.0 thing then? (not serious, but if it happens it'll probably turn out something like that)
  482. Sam Negotiation would be "what decl does the client send?" no?
  483. Sam not that it matters, just cirious
  484. Sam curious too
  485. moparisthebest sure, but then what, you've got client1 <-> server1 <-> server2 <-> client2 and each of those 3 links can be XML 1.0 or 1.1 now ? do the servers automagically convert or... what's the advantage
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  491. qrpnxz hmm, actually xml 1.1 is not just internalization. Looking at the grammar to answer the whitespace question, it actually cleans up some other crap in the standard. Btw, if there is an xmldecl, it indeed has to be the very first thing in the document. If we were using xml 1.1 which requires the xmldecl, that means that you would indeed reliable detect an xml document.
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  493. qrpnxz i guess you could check for `<?xml ` then sometimes you'd know for sure if it's XML, but not always.
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  496. qrpnxz > I think everything else you can say with <?xml?> is forbidden Zash, you're also allowed to say `standalone="yes"` :)
  497. Zash What sense does that make in XMPP?
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  501. qrpnxz it must be a standalone document for xmpp, so you aren't allowed to say `standalone="no"`
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  503. Zash So what's the point?
  504. Zash Explicit > implicit?
  505. qrpnxz just informing you there's one more thing that's not forbidden :)
  506. Zash My point is that there's a bunch of things you can say where you only have one choice, where saying nothing means the same thing.
  507. Zash Which makes it feel like a waste of bytes.
  508. qrpnxz ah yeah i wouldn't bother sending encoding or standalone attributes
  509. qrpnxz i'd send xmldecl to help detection tho
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  556. toutafait > mdosch wrote: > https://github.com/cmeng-git/atalk-android is it better than conversation/blabber?
  557. toutafait better being "to have more features"
  558. toutafait better meaning: "to have more features"
  559. Zash Try it and compare?
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  571. toutafait old version on fdroid
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  654. eta I found the XMPP tunnel
  655. eta https://theta.eu.org/xmpp/upload/GQEMe1jq_9IuZ66Q/cStIxtEhQbyjL98TA7nudg.jpg
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  683. şişio Test
  684. şişio Good
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  693. şişio If I add myself, I'll have a notebook.
  694. şişio Right?
  695. şişio No one can see
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  702. moparisthebest your server admin, unless you encrypt
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  709. eevvoor Gajim does not allow me to add myself to my own roster. Or the Server does not allow this.
  710. wurstsalat eevvoor, if you have 2+ devices online, gajim shows your own contact (but that's buggy at the moment). 1.4 will have this more prominent
  711. Zash Forbidden by some specification or something
  712. Zash Or was it hysterical raisins?
  713. eevvoor wurstsalat, it does work for me without bugs. I meant the ecact same jid does not work. ;-)
  714. eevvoor wurstsalat, it does work for me without bugs. I meant the exact same jid does not work. ;-)
  715. Zash You're already implicitly subscribed to your own presence tho
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  717. eevvoor yeay but şişio‎ asked for "writing" to yourself, not mere presence
  718. eevvoor yeay but şişio‎ asked for "writing" to yourself, not mere presence
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  720. Zash Don't need presence or roster entry to write to anyone, especially not yourself
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  727. şişio > moparisthebest wrote: > your server admin, unless you encrypt How? I dont understand
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  732. moparisthebest omemo, pgp etc
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  734. moparisthebest I send myself messages all the time
  735. şişio If I encrypt it, no one can see it, so there'll be a notebook.
  736. şişio > I wrote: > If I encrypt it, no one can see it, so there'll be a notebook. Right?
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  739. eevvoor yes şişio‎
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  841. şişio I can't get old messages in new session on Xmpp
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  845. şişio Test
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  877. eevvoor that is normal şişio‎.
  878. eevvoor Only new messages will be received.
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