XSF Discussion - 2021-05-26

xmpp needs that muc remove message thingy, i dont know why i felt that not earlier, but spammers are annoying, especially if the post links

XEP-0425?

lovetox, we have it though?

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0425.html https://modules.prosody.im/mod_muc_moderation.html

(prosody has a module which supports this, and it works, not sure about the other servers, I would guess MIX implementations also have some form of this)

Client implementation in Converse.js

Did Siskin do 425 and/or 424?

Siskin has support for 424

Andrzej: Any plans for 425? Read-only should be easy and similar to 424.

there were no plans, but that could be added as it is quite similar ✏

I forget the exact reasoning why 425 retractions don't look like 424, but it is subtly different so I stopped worrying about it.

Would be nice if last-message-correction (308) --> correct it to whitespace or something would result in behavior of 424. Isn't 424 just a special case of "last message correction" for the enduser?

No, different semantics

Jeah, its technally different. I just meant for the enduser.. Now only few clients use 424 and in androids conversations we still see the full message and a text that the user tried to retract it. Instead of a correction to whitespace. The xep feels redundant.

Someone says XMPP is safe but Matrix is more safe and convenient. How do you think?

I will create server

i don't think webshit is safe

matrix is not good

and matrix sure is inconvenient, it doesn't even support channel history // https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-bifrost/issues/64

What do "safe" and "convenient" even mean exactly? Safe from what? Convenient for who?

> matrix is not good Why?

Matrix and XMPP are two different protocols

> What do "safe" and "convenient" even mean exactly? Safe from what? Convenient for who? R vick said it was better because it was new ✏

> What do "safe" and "convenient" even mean exactly? Safe from what? Convenient for who? Lance R vick said it was better because it was new ✏

Well if you think new things are better than old things, your question is answered :)

What do you mean? 😀

Is every new thing better?

Me? I don't think so, no

Do you?

No😀

I think both are save, xmpp is more tested. The rest is use case.. Server storage

Then I think you can overlook any suggestions that Matrix is better simply because it's newer. Then maybe we can get past the whole "XMPP vs Matrix" thing

> Then I think you can overlook any suggestions that Matrix is better simply because it's newer. Then maybe we can get past the whole "XMPP vs Matrix" thing maybe

But (frankly) I liked the XMPP better

Then why do you need someone else to tell you which is "better"? :)

Different people have different requirements and preferences, and XMPP and Matrix are simply solving very similar goals in different ways

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0425.html#tombstones

is the namespace on the <moderated> missing here?

It would appear so

i hope prosody includes it :)

> Then why do you need someone else to tell you which is "better"? :) 😀😀🤐

Code is missing? > https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0425.html#tombstones > is the namespace on the <moderated> missing here?

Small mistake in an example, easy to fix

> Small mistake in an example, easy to fix 👊

No problem

XMPP not working multi device

How so?

How about you?

It works for me.

It has been working since 2006.

şişio: maybe don't write xmpp, but your client and server. Because that's what's not working, not xmpp. And maybe write in the chat of your app you use. You can find that room here: https://search.jabber.network/rooms/1

> It works for me. > It has been working since 2006. I guess client is not support multi device. Ok.

Take it up with the relevant client / server developers, operators.

şişio‎ your client does support multidevice, also your server.

what do you even mean by multi device? Carbons?

qrpnxz: you have a two phones and a laptop. one account connected to all devives (multi devices) but only the device you active use will notify you on new messages (still the others devices get the messages too)

ahh, sorry I think your question was a different one

i dont think theres a xep for only one client getting notif. Would be nice tho

All accounts are active but the message goes through a session

Multi device works on only unencrypted room

no, encrypted too

şişio‎

but encrypted rooms do not work perfect, they are sometimes buggy. 1:1 is less error-prone

> I wonder why Matrix is reinventing the wheel True :)

I wonder why is Matrix reinventing the wheel ✏

tutenote: their servers are heavier on resources

It seems like it's made by and for enterprises in mind

werw0lf, ehm, what do you mean by heavier?

They require more resources to selfhost, I did my tests and RAM and CPU consumption when selfhosting matrix was way higher than when selfhosting an XMPP server ✏

They require more resources to selfhost, I did my tests and RAM and CPU consumption when selfhosting matrix was way higher than when selfhosting a XMPP server ✏

ah but that is more about scalability.

It is a feature if you can host both on raspberry pi and also scale up to high demands on a decent server.

Sounds like Matrix is less scalable to the tiny direction ;-).

eevvoor: also to the bigger direction though :)

See matrix.org constantly buckling under load

It's almost like a database protocol isn't suitable for instant messaging or something, who'd have thought

I did not want to sound too negative, but yeah, I know.

Scalabilty by design is nice. Putting it after the design of the main architecture always brings pain.

moparisthebest, oh yeah, what a surprise :D

moparisthebest: that's why we're turning XMPP into a database replication protocol! with MAM etc.

Matrix fans seem to think faster code will save them, I'm skeptical

Well if you want individuals to selfhost it and make a truly decentralized protocol is important to make it as light as possible so anyone can have access to it

Matrix fans seem to think that replicating all data everywhere all the time will save them.

Matrix is almost centralized at this point. If you join a public matrix room you'll find that 80% of the users are on matrix.org

The fact that that you, or anyone, can easily see that is a bit scary too.

yes that is a common critical point about matrix, this pseudo decentrelization

Here, you can't tell how many servers are involved unless you're an admin.

That's not how you get the sweet sweet VC money though

How many users do you have? Hmm impossible to say. How many can you lock in? None. *Click*

Why do people chose matrix.org when there is librem for example?